thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 3, 2019 23:19:30 GMT
I don't know that everyone who voted for trump "loves" him. I think the 2016 election was most people holding their nose and closing their eyes and voting for the person they disliked the least. I think he has his followers as does Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. I think the majority of Americans think he is a corrupt jerk and a liar. But that doesn't make him any worse then the previous president who also was corrupt and a liar and the president before him. I can tell you my life was worse under Obama then it has been under Trump, but that doesn't mean the president controls my life, and whoever is elected next won't control my life either. I think it's disingenuous to hold one president to a moral standard that you don't hold other presidents to. They are all corrupt power seekers. Otherwise why would they want such a sucky job?
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Post by lucyg on Dec 3, 2019 23:53:57 GMT
I don't know that everyone who voted for trump "loves" him. I think the 2016 election was most people holding their nose and closing their eyes and voting for the person they disliked the least. I think he has his followers as does Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. I think the majority of Americans think he is a corrupt jerk and a liar. But that doesn't make him any worse then the previous president who also was corrupt and a liar and the president before him. I can tell you my life was worse under Obama then it has been under Trump, but that doesn't mean the president controls my life, and whoever is elected next won't control my life either. I think it's disingenuous to hold one president to a moral standard that you don't hold other presidents to. They are all corrupt power seekers. Otherwise why would they want such a sucky job? The fact that you would describe Barack Obama as “corrupt and a liar” tells me all I need to know about you. And don’t kid yourself that any of it is complimentary.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Dec 3, 2019 23:58:54 GMT
I don't know that everyone who voted for trump "loves" him. I think the 2016 election was most people holding their nose and closing their eyes and voting for the person they disliked the least. I think he has his followers as does Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. I think the majority of Americans think he is a corrupt jerk and a liar. But that doesn't make him any worse then the previous president who also was corrupt and a liar and the president before him. I can tell you my life was worse under Obama then it has been under Trump, but that doesn't mean the president controls my life, and whoever is elected next won't control my life either. I think it's disingenuous to hold one president to a moral standard that you don't hold other presidents to. They are all corrupt power seekers. Otherwise why would they want such a sucky job? I didn't even vote for Obama but his presidency was beyond reproach. Never did I question his character. Never did I think he thought less of certain groups. Never did I read tweets that I thought were embarrassing. I didn't always agree with his policy positions but never did I feel ashamed or scared.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 0:06:24 GMT
I don't know that everyone who voted for trump "loves" him. I think the 2016 election was most people holding their nose and closing their eyes and voting for the person they disliked the least. I think he has his followers as does Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. I think the majority of Americans think he is a corrupt jerk and a liar. But that doesn't make him any worse then the previous president who also was corrupt and a liar and the president before him. I can tell you my life was worse under Obama then it has been under Trump, but that doesn't mean the president controls my life, and whoever is elected next won't control my life either. I think it's disingenuous to hold one president to a moral standard that you don't hold other presidents to. They are all corrupt power seekers. Otherwise why would they want such a sucky job? The fact that you would describe Barack Obama as “corrupt and a liar” tells me all I need to know about you. And don’t kid yourself that any of it is complimentary. Oh dear. That was a bit harsh. I'd be happy to explain individual incidents where I feel like President Obama didn't show his best self, if you'd like to hear. However that's not the subject of this thread. I was simply trying to point out that not everybody loves Trump, and not everybody hates Trump. There are a lot of people like me who think all the politicians are self serving. I think a lot of people would have voted for someone else if there were other, better options. Is there no room for that kind of opinion in political discourse?
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Just T
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,541
Jun 26, 2014 1:20:09 GMT
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Post by Just T on Dec 4, 2019 0:11:46 GMT
I don't know that everyone who voted for trump "loves" him. I think the 2016 election was most people holding their nose and closing their eyes and voting for the person they disliked the least. I think he has his followers as does Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. I think the majority of Americans think he is a corrupt jerk and a liar. But that doesn't make him any worse then the previous president who also was corrupt and a liar and the president before him. I can tell you my life was worse under Obama then it has been under Trump, but that doesn't mean the president controls my life, and whoever is elected next won't control my life either. I think it's disingenuous to hold one president to a moral standard that you don't hold other presidents to. They are all corrupt power seekers. Otherwise why would they want such a sucky job? I am soooooo sooooooooo SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sick of this particular justification for the horrible person Trump is. NO other president has ever done the shit he does and continues to do every single f*ing DAY.
How many times in 8 years did you see Obama attack, belittle and demean people via Twitter?? Yet, Trump does it almost every damn day.
How many times in 8 years did you see Obama make fun of, well, anyone? Handicapped people, women...how many??
This list could go on and on, but honestly, I am too furious after reading that sentence in your post to even continue.
How about everyone who worships Donald Trump hold HIM to the standards you held Obama to?
UGH.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 0:17:23 GMT
I don't know that everyone who voted for trump "loves" him. I think the 2016 election was most people holding their nose and closing their eyes and voting for the person they disliked the least. I think he has his followers as does Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. I think the majority of Americans think he is a corrupt jerk and a liar. But that doesn't make him any worse then the previous president who also was corrupt and a liar and the president before him. I can tell you my life was worse under Obama then it has been under Trump, but that doesn't mean the president controls my life, and whoever is elected next won't control my life either. I think it's disingenuous to hold one president to a moral standard that you don't hold other presidents to. They are all corrupt power seekers. Otherwise why would they want such a sucky job? I didn't even vote for Obama but his presidency was beyond reproach. Never did I question his character. Never did I think he thought less of certain groups. Never did I read tweets that I thought were embarrassing. I didn't always agree with his policy positions but never did I feel ashamed or scared. I agree with you completely. I also never felt like never he lowered the dignity of the office of the president (except when he went on the late night talk shows, no that isn't as bad a all the tweets. I am with all of you on that) but there are a few things about his presidency I do think we never got reasonable explanations for that indicated he was no better than any other corrupt politician. We never got a real reason for Bengazi, we never got a good explanation for why the VA was so mishandled and so many veterans died. There was never any punishments for the FBI mishandling govt funds and using money to hire prostitutes, or the fact that the IRS was used to target the tea party or when he got caught on a hot mic promising Putin he'd have "more flexibilty" after the election. Look I'm not saying Donald Trump is a good guy, and I'm not saying Obama is evil. I'm just saying I think a lot of people think politicians at all levels have their own self interests at heart.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 0:25:23 GMT
I don't know that everyone who voted for trump "loves" him. I think the 2016 election was most people holding their nose and closing their eyes and voting for the person they disliked the least. I think he has his followers as does Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. I think the majority of Americans think he is a corrupt jerk and a liar. But that doesn't make him any worse then the previous president who also was corrupt and a liar and the president before him. I can tell you my life was worse under Obama then it has been under Trump, but that doesn't mean the president controls my life, and whoever is elected next won't control my life either. I think it's disingenuous to hold one president to a moral standard that you don't hold other presidents to. They are all corrupt power seekers. Otherwise why would they want such a sucky job? I am soooooo sooooooooo SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sick of this particular justification for the horrible person Trump is. NO other president has ever done the shit he does and continues to do every single f*ing DAY.
How many times in 8 years did you see Obama attack, belittle and demean people via Twitter?? Yet, Trump does it almost every damn day.
How many times in 8 years did you see Obama make fun of, well, anyone? Handicapped people, women...how many??
This list could go on and on, but honestly, I am too furious after reading that sentence in your post to even continue.
How about everyone who worships Donald Trump hold HIM to the standards you held Obama to?
UGH.
I agree with you. Obama never did any of those things on Twitter. I'm not defending Trump or justifying any behavior. Trump is wrong to do those thing. You are right. Bad behavior should be condemned on both side of the aisle. I was simply trying to point out that all presidents lie and act in their own self interest. If Trump belittles other people it's because he gets a laugh out of it, it's the same tactic Elizebeth Warren used when she belittled that man on tv saying "if you can find someone to marry you" politician say that crap becuase it gets them a talking point. George W Bush lied about WOMD and Obama lied about being able to keep your doctor. They are all self serving. I wrote that line not as a defense for Trump but as a genuine belief that it does no good to pretend that one president is spotless. None of them are.
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,972
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Dec 4, 2019 0:36:01 GMT
Well I grew up in and still live in what would be considered rural America as do my parents and many friends. My dad is a minister. My husband hunts. And what we all have in common is the ability for self-reflection. So no, I don't feel like I was openly ridiculed by any Democratic candidate, I agree that there are far too many Americans (rural and otherwise) with deplorable worldviews and I do think far too many people continue to cling to old beliefs because they are incurious or it is too uncomfortable to consider something else. That so many continue to "cling" resentfully to these statements without any critical examination is really just a reinforcement of their truth.
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PLurker
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,738
Location: Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Jun 28, 2014 3:48:49 GMT
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Post by PLurker on Dec 4, 2019 0:42:21 GMT
I don't know that everyone who voted for trump "loves" him. I think the 2016 election was most people holding their nose and closing their eyes and voting for the person they disliked the least. I think he has his followers as does Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. I think the majority of Americans think he is a corrupt jerk and a liar. >>>>>>But that doesn't make him any worse then the previous president who also was corrupt and a liar and the president before him. <<<<<<< I can tell you my life was worse under Obama then it has been under Trump, but that doesn't mean the president controls my life, and whoever is elected next won't control my life either. I think it's disingenuous to hold one president to a moral standard that you don't hold other presidents to. They are all corrupt power seekers. Otherwise why would they want such a sucky job? yes, it does make him (trump)worse because no Obama wasn't a corrupt liar any where near the extent of trump. That by definition does make him worse. And I'm giving you the the "any way near" because I'm not going to debate Obama being perfect. He was not. But oh, please. No comparison. trump's actions are totally reactive and to what serves and enriches him best. Him. Him. Him. If you benefited from any of it, it was only coincidence and he'll reverse course and take your "good" away in a heartbeat to do what he does best. Serve himself.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 0:55:55 GMT
I don't know that everyone who voted for trump "loves" him. I think the 2016 election was most people holding their nose and closing their eyes and voting for the person they disliked the least. I think he has his followers as does Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. I think the majority of Americans think he is a corrupt jerk and a liar. >>>>>>But that doesn't make him any worse then the previous president who also was corrupt and a liar and the president before him. <<<<<<< I can tell you my life was worse under Obama then it has been under Trump, but that doesn't mean the president controls my life, and whoever is elected next won't control my life either. I think it's disingenuous to hold one president to a moral standard that you don't hold other presidents to. They are all corrupt power seekers. Otherwise why would they want such a sucky job? yes, it does make him (trump)worse because no Obama wasn't a corrupt liar any where near the extent of trump. That by definition does make him worse. And I'm giving you the the "any way near" because I'm not going to debate Obama being perfect. He was not. But oh, please. No comparison. trump's actions are totally reactive and to what serves and enriches him best. Him. Him. Him. If you benefited from any of it, it was only coincidence and he'll reverse course and take your "good" away in a heartbeat to do what he does best. Serve himself. You are right. That is what I have been saying this whole time. Trump's actions benefited him, him, him. The title of this thread is why Trump supporters love Trump. I was just bringing up the point that not everyone is passionately in love with Trump and not everyone bitterly hates him. There is an huge swath of the country that considers him an average politician. If I am doing better under Trump I would chalk it up to better personal decisions. Like I said, the sun and moon don't set on the President there will be a new one soon enough and a new one after that.
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Post by Merge on Dec 4, 2019 1:58:33 GMT
yes, it does make him (trump)worse because no Obama wasn't a corrupt liar any where near the extent of trump. That by definition does make him worse. And I'm giving you the the "any way near" because I'm not going to debate Obama being perfect. He was not. But oh, please. No comparison. trump's actions are totally reactive and to what serves and enriches him best. Him. Him. Him. If you benefited from any of it, it was only coincidence and he'll reverse course and take your "good" away in a heartbeat to do what he does best. Serve himself. You are right. That is what I have been saying this whole time. Trump's actions benefited him, him, him. The title of this thread is why Trump supporters love Trump. I was just bringing up the point that not everyone is passionately in love with Trump and not everyone bitterly hates him. There is an huge swath of the country that considers him an average politician. Anyone who considers Trump an "average politician" is either willfully ignorant or simply isn't paying attention. The sun doesn't rise and set with the president, but never has there been one who represented such a clear and present danger to our democracy. Trump's contempt for the constitution and the rule of law far surpasses any business-as-usual politics, and if you are aware of a huge swath of people who don't see this, I hope you'll direct them to read both a history book and a newspaper.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 2:17:18 GMT
You are right. That is what I have been saying this whole time. Trump's actions benefited him, him, him. The title of this thread is why Trump supporters love Trump. I was just bringing up the point that not everyone is passionately in love with Trump and not everyone bitterly hates him. There is an huge swath of the country that considers him an average politician. Anyone who considers Trump an "average politician" is either willfully ignorant or simply isn't paying attention. The sun doesn't rise and set with the president, but never has there been one who represented such a clear and present danger to our democracy. Trump's contempt for the constitution and the rule of law far surpasses any business-as-usual politics, and if you are aware of a huge swath of people who don't see this, I hope you'll direct them to read both a history book and a newspaper. I don't consider myself willfully ignorant. I'm willing to hear your case. In what way is Trump endangering democracy? That is not sarcasm, I am interested in a thoughtful dialogue if you are.
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Post by Merge on Dec 4, 2019 2:48:32 GMT
Anyone who considers Trump an "average politician" is either willfully ignorant or simply isn't paying attention. The sun doesn't rise and set with the president, but never has there been one who represented such a clear and present danger to our democracy. Trump's contempt for the constitution and the rule of law far surpasses any business-as-usual politics, and if you are aware of a huge swath of people who don't see this, I hope you'll direct them to read both a history book and a newspaper. I don't consider myself willfully ignorant. I'm willing to hear your case. In what way is Trump endangering democracy? That is not sarcasm, I am interested in a thoughtful dialogue if you are. Why don't you read the impeachment report released by the house intelligence committee today and get back to me with your thoughts on that? While you're at it, to disabuse yourself of any notion that the evidence against him is indicative of typical political behavior, go back and read about the comparatively minuscule things that got Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon headed down the road to impeachment.
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Post by ntsf on Dec 4, 2019 2:51:33 GMT
being the first president to totally deny producing any documents or witnesses in defiance of legal requirements... the obstruction of justice will tear the constitution apart.
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Post by Merge on Dec 4, 2019 2:53:27 GMT
being the first president to totally deny producing any documents or witnesses in defiance of legal requirements... the obstruction of justice will tear the constitution apart. Not to mention the fact that he's sought and encouraged the interference of hostile foreign powers in our political process for his own benefit, and then engineered an elaborate cover-up of the same.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 3:31:55 GMT
I don't consider myself willfully ignorant. I'm willing to hear your case. In what way is Trump endangering democracy? That is not sarcasm, I am interested in a thoughtful dialogue if you are. Why don't you read the impeachment report released by the house intelligence committee today and get back to me with your thoughts on that? While you're at it, to disabuse yourself of any notion that the evidence against him is indicative of typical political behavior, go back and read about the comparatively minuscule things that got Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon headed down the road to impeachment. Here is the problem with the current impeachment. You might not agree with me, but hear me out. The way everything stands is this. If you are looking for a reason to impeach, his motives for withholding aid appear to be a quid pro quo. Which is self serving. If you are looking for a reason not to impeach his motives into looking into a corrupt government seem like a prudent action before releasing taxpayer money. So depending on what you want to see you will see it. There isn't really enough evidence either way. It's a bit of a Rorschach test. I don't think we will really know enough to judge motive until Rudy Giuliani testifies. And I do think he should. I know some of you might think you know Trump's motives based on his behavior, but as irksome as it is sometimes, our judicial process is based on the assumption of innocence. Do I think Trump is spotless, heck no, but that doesn't mean he has done everything everyone is accusing him of. I think we need more, less ambiguous evidence. I will read the report and get back to you like you asked. Will tomorrow or the next day work? However I think it will be more of the same. I will admit that my opinion of Congress isn't high so I may be a bit jaded about it. I agree that Clinton's impeachment was undoubtedly politically motivated. I do have to confess that I don't know enough about Nixon to comment on it. I also have to say I think this impeachment is also politically motivated. Adam Schiff is as self serving as Trump. I think the Republicans were wrong to impeach Clinton and I think there isn't enough evidence currently to impeach Trump.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 3:39:42 GMT
being the first president to totally deny producing any documents or witnesses in defiance of legal requirements... the obstruction of justice will tear the constitution apart. [br I may be revealing my ignorance here, but do you have to release documents if they haven't been legally subpoenaed? My understanding was that this was an impeachment inquiry, not an impeachment itself, which means that everything has been done at by request of Congress, however that request has no legal sway. If Trump chooses to ignore their request it's not illegal. Again I may have misunderstood the situation. I imagine the actual impeachment will involve subpoenas and then withholding documents would be illegal. Again if I'm wrong, please let me know, kindly.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 3:41:22 GMT
being the first president to totally deny producing any documents or witnesses in defiance of legal requirements... the obstruction of justice will tear the constitution apart. Not to mention the fact that he's sought and encouraged the interference of hostile foreign powers in our political process for his own benefit, and then engineered an elaborate cover-up of the same. Which hostile foriegn powers? Are you talking about Russia or Ukraine?
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Dec 4, 2019 3:45:38 GMT
The fact that you would describe Barack Obama as “corrupt and a liar” tells me all I need to know about you. And don’t kid yourself that any of it is complimentary. Oh dear. That was a bit harsh. I'd be happy to explain individual incidents where I feel like President Obama didn't show his best self, if you'd like to hear. However that's not the subject of this thread. I was simply trying to point out that not everybody loves Trump, and not everybody hates Trump. There are a lot of people like me who think all the politicians are self serving. I think a lot of people would have voted for someone else if there were other, better options. Is there no room for that kind of opinion in political discourse? You’d still be wrong. President Obama wasn’t a criminal, a liar, or a thug like trump and for you to say that trump is no worse than other potus’ really dismisses proven facts over and over regarding the two of them.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Dec 4, 2019 3:56:59 GMT
Why don't you read the impeachment report released by the house intelligence committee today and get back to me with your thoughts on that? While you're at it, to disabuse yourself of any notion that the evidence against him is indicative of typical political behavior, go back and read about the comparatively minuscule things that got Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon headed down the road to impeachment. Here is the problem with the current impeachment. You might not agree with me, but hear me out. The way everything stands is this. If you are looking for a reason to impeach, his motives for withholding aid appear to be a quid pro quo. Which is self serving. If you are looking for a reason not to impeach his motives into looking into a corrupt government seem like a prudent action before releasing taxpayer money. So depending on what you want to see you will see it. There isn't really enough evidence either way. It's a bit of a Rorschach test. I don't think we will really know enough to judge motive until Rudy Giuliani testifies. And I do think he should. I know some of you might think you know Trump's motives based on his behavior, but as irksome as it is sometimes, our judicial process is based on the assumption of innocence. Do I think Trump is spotless, heck no, but that doesn't mean he has done everything everyone is accusing him of. I think we need more, less ambiguous evidence. I will read the report and get back to you like you asked. Will tomorrow or the next day work? However I think it will be more of the same. I will admit that my opinion of Congress isn't high so I may be a bit jaded about it. I agree that Clinton's impeachment was undoubtedly politically motivated. I do have to confess that I don't know enough about Nixon to comment on it. I also have to say I think this impeachment is also politically motivated. Adam Schiff is as self serving as Trump. I think the Republicans were wrong to impeach Clinton and I think there isn't enough evidence currently to impeach Trump. There is plenty of valid, factual evidence to back up the impeachment. Provided by very well respected, professional Americas serving in government. It’s not a matter of “ you’ll see what you want to see”. 🙄🙄🙄 Trumps 894th excuse for holding aid was against what congress already approved. Bipartisan Congress approved, meaning they were satisfied with doling our the aid. And his excuses as to ensure that they were not corrupt as a whole has been disproven repeatedly, as trump was only interested in having Ukraine verbally announce an investigation into Biden/Burisma and no one or nothing else. How is Adam Schiff self serving??? How could this possibly be self serving for him? What’s in it for him? This impeachment is 100% based on trumps willingness to ignore the Constitution of the United States. It is not a political attack. I pray that you read up on actual facts.
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thwarth
Full Member
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Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 4:05:17 GMT
Oh dear. That was a bit harsh. I'd be happy to explain individual incidents where I feel like President Obama didn't show his best self, if you'd like to hear. However that's not the subject of this thread. I was simply trying to point out that not everybody loves Trump, and not everybody hates Trump. There are a lot of people like me who think all the politicians are self serving. I think a lot of people would have voted for someone else if there were other, better options. Is there no room for that kind of opinion in political discourse? You’d still be wrong. President Obama wasn’t a criminal, a liar, or a thug like trump and for you to say that trump is no worse than other potus’ really dismisses proven facts over and over regarding the two of them. Ok. I'm willing to admit I am wrong. How is Trump a criminal? I would guess that, if you want to see him as a criminal you will. Just like those that want to see Hillary Clinton as a criminal who got away with things, but was never convicted. They both acted in their best interests. Neither has a conviction that I am aware of. Apples to apples in my opinion. Do I think Trump is a liar? Yes. Do I think Obama was a liar? Yes. All politicians lie to achieve their own ends. They tell people what they want to hear so they can gain power. If that wasn't the case both Trump and Obama would've stopped over spending and cut entitlements because that would be the responsible thing to do, but being responsible doesn't get you power, so they both spend and just raise the debt ceiling. Is Trump a thug. Yes. He bypasses a media that hates him and uses Twitter like a hammer. I hate it. Was Obama a thug, yes hes was just more subtle about it.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Dec 4, 2019 4:15:42 GMT
Trump is 3 years into his term, and his administration has over 90 criminal indictments, over 25 criminal convictions, and more than 5 criminal prison sentences. He has surpassed Regan AND Nixon. Mueller report revealed the instances of criminality. Trump violating the Constitution is a criminal act.
President Obama’s 8 year term, ZERO on all accounts.
HRC wasn’t even potus (yet people bring her up like she was) was investigated thoroughly (Benghazi 4 times), emails for months and months, and not once was any criminality found. She complied with every request to sit to be question, responded to all requests by republicans. So factually, she is not nor was a criminal.
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rodeomom
Pearl Clutcher
Refupee # 380 "I don't have to run fast, I just have to run faster than you."
Posts: 3,658
Location: Chickasaw Nation, Oklahoma
Jun 25, 2014 23:34:38 GMT
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Post by rodeomom on Dec 4, 2019 4:18:43 GMT
Why don't you read the impeachment report released by the house intelligence committee today and get back to me with your thoughts on that? While you're at it, to disabuse yourself of any notion that the evidence against him is indicative of typical political behavior, go back and read about the comparatively minuscule things that got Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon headed down the road to impeachment. Here is the problem with the current impeachment. You might not agree with me, but hear me out. The way everything stands is this. If you are looking for a reason to impeach, his motives for withholding aid appear to be a quid pro quo. Which is self serving. If you are looking for a reason not to impeach his motives into looking into a corrupt government seem like a prudent action before releasing taxpayer money. So depending on what you want to see you will see it. There isn't really enough evidence either way. It's a bit of a Rorschach test. I don't think we will really know enough to judge motive until Rudy Giuliani testifies. And I do think he should. I know some of you might think you know Trump's motives based on his behavior, but as irksome as it is sometimes, our judicial process is based on the assumption of innocence. Do I think Trump is spotless, heck no, but that doesn't mean he has done everything everyone is accusing him of. I think we need more, less ambiguous evidence. I will read the report and get back to you like you asked. Will tomorrow or the next day work? However I think it will be more of the same. I will admit that my opinion of Congress isn't high so I may be a bit jaded about it. I agree that Clinton's impeachment was undoubtedly politically motivated. I do have to confess that I don't know enough about Nixon to comment on it. I also have to say I think this impeachment is also politically motivated. Adam Schiff is as self serving as Trump. I think the Republicans were wrong to impeach Clinton and I think there isn't enough evidence currently to impeach Trump. Just wondering if you watched the Impeachment hearings?
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 4:20:01 GMT
Here is the problem with the current impeachment. You might not agree with me, but hear me out. The way everything stands is this. If you are looking for a reason to impeach, his motives for withholding aid appear to be a quid pro quo. Which is self serving. If you are looking for a reason not to impeach his motives into looking into a corrupt government seem like a prudent action before releasing taxpayer money. So depending on what you want to see you will see it. There isn't really enough evidence either way. It's a bit of a Rorschach test. I don't think we will really know enough to judge motive until Rudy Giuliani testifies. And I do think he should. I know some of you might think you know Trump's motives based on his behavior, but as irksome as it is sometimes, our judicial process is based on the assumption of innocence. Do I think Trump is spotless, heck no, but that doesn't mean he has done everything everyone is accusing him of. I think we need more, less ambiguous evidence. I will read the report and get back to you like you asked. Will tomorrow or the next day work? However I think it will be more of the same. I will admit that my opinion of Congress isn't high so I may be a bit jaded about it. I agree that Clinton's impeachment was undoubtedly politically motivated. I do have to confess that I don't know enough about Nixon to comment on it. I also have to say I think this impeachment is also politically motivated. Adam Schiff is as self serving as Trump. I think the Republicans were wrong to impeach Clinton and I think there isn't enough evidence currently to impeach Trump. There is plenty of valid, factual evidence to back up the impeachment. Provided by very well respected, professional Americas serving in government. It’s not a matter of “ you’ll see what you want to see”. 🙄🙄🙄 Trumps 894th excuse for holding aid was against what congress already approved. Bipartisan Congress approved, meaning they were satisfied with doling our the aid. And his excuses as to ensure that they were not corrupt as a whole has been disproven repeatedly, as trump was only interested in having Ukraine verbally announce an investigation into Biden/Burisma and no one or nothing else. How is Adam Schiff self serving??? How could this possibly be self serving for him? What’s in it for him? This impeachment is 100% based on trumps willingness to ignore the Constitution of the United States. It is not a political attack. I pray that you read up on actual facts. Will you really pray for me? If there is enough evidence for impeachment and it is so overwhelming why hasn't Nancy Pelosi called for a vote? You know he will be impeached in the house. Then it will go to the Senate. It seems it would be in the best interests of the democratic party to get this wrapped up quickly as cocaine Mitch could draw this out into campaign season which could be a detriment to Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders who would need to be present at the hearings or risk not having a vote. I truly feel that if there was enough evidence the Democrats would have moved on it by now. It's bad PR to draw this out. The longer it goes the more Americans will lose interest and patience. A lot of people feel like we've been down this road before with the Muller Report. Again I'm not saying Trump is innocent. I just don't think there is enough solid, non hearsay, evidence.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 4:22:08 GMT
Here is the problem with the current impeachment. You might not agree with me, but hear me out. The way everything stands is this. If you are looking for a reason to impeach, his motives for withholding aid appear to be a quid pro quo. Which is self serving. If you are looking for a reason not to impeach his motives into looking into a corrupt government seem like a prudent action before releasing taxpayer money. So depending on what you want to see you will see it. There isn't really enough evidence either way. It's a bit of a Rorschach test. I don't think we will really know enough to judge motive until Rudy Giuliani testifies. And I do think he should. I know some of you might think you know Trump's motives based on his behavior, but as irksome as it is sometimes, our judicial process is based on the assumption of innocence. Do I think Trump is spotless, heck no, but that doesn't mean he has done everything everyone is accusing him of. I think we need more, less ambiguous evidence. I will read the report and get back to you like you asked. Will tomorrow or the next day work? However I think it will be more of the same. I will admit that my opinion of Congress isn't high so I may be a bit jaded about it. I agree that Clinton's impeachment was undoubtedly politically motivated. I do have to confess that I don't know enough about Nixon to comment on it. I also have to say I think this impeachment is also politically motivated. Adam Schiff is as self serving as Trump. I think the Republicans were wrong to impeach Clinton and I think there isn't enough evidence currently to impeach Trump. Just wondering if you watched the Impeachment hearings? Some of them they are incredibly boring. Which witnesses would you draw my attention to?
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samantha25
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,891
Jun 27, 2014 19:06:19 GMT
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Post by samantha25 on Dec 4, 2019 4:28:36 GMT
Don't engage...not worth it. Suspect poster.
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Post by peano on Dec 4, 2019 4:34:55 GMT
Just wondering if you watched the Impeachment hearings? Some of them they are incredibly boring. Which witnesses would you draw my attention to? I defy you to say that Fiona Hill's testimony was boring, for one. Then try Vindman perhaps. Or even Trump's guy Sondland. Lord have mercy, I wander into these threads and I just.dont.understand. the way people are living in alternative universes.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 4:35:07 GMT
Trump is 3 years into his term, and his administration has over 90 criminal indictments, over 25 criminal convictions, and more than 5 criminal prison sentences. He has surpassed Regan AND Nixon. Mueller report revealed the instances of criminality. Trump violating the Constitution is a criminal act. President Obama’s 8 year term, ZERO on all accounts. HRC wasn’t even potus (yet people bring her up like she was) was investigated thoroughly (Benghazi 4 times), emails for months and months, and not once was any criminality found. She complied with every request to sit to be question, responded to all requests by republicans. So factually, she is not nor was a criminal. Has Trump been convicted of a crime, yet? I believe the accusation was that Trump is a criminal. My point is this, factually Trump isn't a criminal either. Neither was Obama, but that doesn't mean his administration didn't have problems. Solyndra I'm looking at you. My point is lots of people feel all politicians are corrupt. Look you are barking up the wrong tree if you think I love our current president, but that doesn't mean I can't try to view all our leaders with the same lens. I want integrity from those we elect, but I'm not naive enough to think I will get it.
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rodeomom
Pearl Clutcher
Refupee # 380 "I don't have to run fast, I just have to run faster than you."
Posts: 3,658
Location: Chickasaw Nation, Oklahoma
Jun 25, 2014 23:34:38 GMT
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Post by rodeomom on Dec 4, 2019 4:38:32 GMT
Just wondering if you watched the Impeachment hearings? Some of them they are incredibly boring. Which witnesses would you draw my attention to? I don't see how they could have been boring to anyone invested in keeping our democracy. I would draw your attention to all of the people who testified. They each had a part to tell of the shakedown.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 4:39:42 GMT
Don't engage...not worth it. Suspect poster. I'm not. I'm not trolling. I have done my best to be very respectful. My point is that not everyone loves Trump and not everyone hates him. When I made that point some people thought I was way off my nut when I asked them to prove why Trump is any more corrupt that Obama, or GWB or Clinton. They very respectfully responded. How is that wrong? I thought we were having a productive dialog.
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