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Post by silverlining on Oct 4, 2021 18:21:07 GMT
I had a crazy elderly relative who spent most of the 1970s griping about how dumb people were then! At Thanksgiving he told a story about something dumb a woman had done. Then he topped it off by saying "Of course, she is a teacher. Doesn't know anything that doesn't come out of a book!" We laughed so hard as we counted 11 teachers sitting around the table!
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Post by Merge on Oct 4, 2021 19:09:42 GMT
I’ll just say that my kids have been taught to think critically and write at a much higher level than I was in high school. They’ve been taught a lot more of recent history and discussed a lot more current events in the context of our past history. They’re much better versed in the work and writings of historically marginalized people (or really anyone other than dead whites people). I think they got a much better education than I did.
(Oh, but I was taught to write in cursive and read an a analog clock, and I can still count back change because I did it over and over again at my minimum wage jobs in the 80s, so I guess that makes me smarter? Lol.)
Frankly I see the lowest level of critical thinking skills on the internet from the same people (around my age or older) who complain about how messed up the schools supposedly are now. I’m not saying schools are great, but I don’t think the fact that we’re not teaching the same things now we were all taught 40 years ago is the problem.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 4, 2021 19:48:32 GMT
I think that the internet has made us lazier as a society. We don't have to measure. Now we can just google things. It annoys the poopy out of me that young people can't count change. Yes, the cash register tells you to give me $5.62, but you should be able to count out the change just in case the cash register breaks or the computer makes a mistake. If I hand you a $10 bill then you count from $5.62 while handing back my change, 63, 64, 65, 75, $7, $8, $9, $10. How complicated is that? Agreed, but they do still teach kids this stuff in school. My kid was taught how to “count up” in second or third grade (public school). Maybe all schools aren’t created equal. My kids were taught this as well. But I wonder if the problem is that the frequency that people practice these skills in daily life has decreased? I’m not sure.
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Post by peasapie on Oct 4, 2021 21:16:26 GMT
Omg this is so true. I do know people don’t read very carefully. I've been noticing that people not only don't read carefully, they just don't read. I have the following conversations with the general public on the phone at work multiple times per week: Person: "Hi, I got a letter from your office" Me: "Ok, how can I help you?" Person: "I'm confused, I don't know what this letter means" Me: "No problem, I'm sure I can help you, what does the letter say?" Person: "I don't know, I don't understand it" Me: "Is it titled at the top?" Person: "It's something to do with taxes I guess" Me: "Can you read it to me?" Person: "I told you, I don't understand it" Me: "Can you read the first couple of sentences to me so I know which letter we sent you and what the situation is?"
It goes on and on. They literally cannot or will not read the letter. The letter which will inevitably explain the situation much better than I can anyway. But it is like pulling teeth to just simply get them to identify what they got in the mail. It drives me insane. Yup. It’s unclear whether they are lazy or illiterate.
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Oct 4, 2021 21:20:23 GMT
As usual, this has turned into quite an interesting discussion here. Thanks to all who posted. This place quite often challenges me to look at situations from different angles than I might come up with on my own.
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Post by birukitty on Oct 4, 2021 22:09:05 GMT
Fair to say that we each have differing skill sets, & that skill or information unused goes stale. What concerns me is that I see a lack of critical thinking skills (most particularly, asking if the source of info is credible, & if the info makes sense), along with the apparent absence of either intellectual curiousness or pride in doing things correctly. As an example, I cringe when I hear the grammar of today's newscasters. Edward R. Murrow would be horrified, I suspect, although I'll grant that there may be some pressure for them to sound youthful, approachable, hip, or what not. I'll also posit that there's a difference between stupidity & ignorance (one can be remedied), just as there's a difference between cunning & intelligence. And, as somebody ignorant of more things than not, I'll agree that giving one another grace in areas of expertise is not only kind, but prudent. It would be a small, sad world if we all excelled at the same things. I think what you wrote above Gem Girl makes a lot of sense. Especially the part about the lack of critical thinking skills. Critical thinking skills and other skills like this start to develop in early childhood and is one of the reasons why Kindergartens in the past focused on imaginative play for their young students. Imaginative play builds critical thinking skills. Sadly in the USA in the past several years the focus has been on "rushing" the teaching in kindergarten so instead of focusing on imaginative play students are instead learning how to read and doing worksheets instead. Kindergartens in Europe, especially in Finland, understand how important imaginative play is for young children and don't "rush" the teaching in early childhood like the USA has chosen to do.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 5, 2021 1:34:51 GMT
Agreed, but they do still teach kids this stuff in school. My kid was taught how to “count up” in second or third grade (public school). Maybe all schools aren’t created equal. My kids were taught this as well. But I wonder if the problem is that the frequency that people practice these skills in daily life has decreased? I’m not sure. I always try to find ways to apply what my kid is learning in school to real life whenever possible. For example, when we had a couple garage sales over the past few years, I would show my kid how counting up works when giving people their change back from stuff they were buying from our sale. Last year when she was working on percentages and fractions in math, I showed her how fractions work in baking and cooking (What if you only wanted to make half a recipe? What if you needed to double it? Triple it? How would that change the amounts, i.e. quarter cup, third cup, half cup, 3/4 cup?) and how to quickly calculate percentages when we were shopping (how much of a discount will you get on this shirt if it’s $19.95 but it’s on sale for 30% off?). Or tipping, if the groomer charges us $45 to give the dog a haircut, how much would her tip be if we add on 20%? And then I’d have DD figure it out. There are so many examples of these things in real life when a person really seeks ways to actively apply them.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 5, 2021 1:41:32 GMT
I’ll just say that my kids have been taught to think critically and write at a much higher level than I was in high school. They’ve been taught a lot more of recent history and discussed a lot more current events in the context of our past history. They’re much better versed in the work and writings of historically marginalized people (or really anyone other than dead whites people). I think they got a much better education than I did. (Oh, but I was taught to write in cursive and read an a analog clock, and I can still count back change because I did it over and over again at my minimum wage jobs in the 80s, so I guess that makes me smarter? Lol.) Frankly I see the lowest level of critical thinking skills on the internet from the same people (around my age or older) who complain about how messed up the schools supposedly are now. I’m not saying schools are great, but I don’t think the fact that we’re not teaching the same things now we were all taught 40 years ago is the problem. I agree with you. I think my kid is getting a great education that is much better than what I got, and I think I had a way better education than my siblings did who are 10 years older than I am. I’m totally convinced that one of my siblings had a pretty severe learning disability that no one ever caught. She struggled all the way through school and even now (64) has legitimate trouble with reading comprehension.
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pinklady
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,971
Nov 14, 2016 23:47:03 GMT
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Post by pinklady on Oct 5, 2021 2:16:57 GMT
Yep…. ”how many are in a dozen?” 🤦🏻♀️ Ok, I know 12 is a dozen but some places also use 14. I know of two different places locally, a donut shop and a bagel shop, that have these weird bakers dozens. But not all of the donut shops and bagel places around here do this. So yeah, I can see myself asking how many in a dozen. Not because I’m dumb but because I want to know how this particular place does it. 😉
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sueg
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,482
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Apr 12, 2016 12:51:01 GMT
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Post by sueg on Oct 5, 2021 6:59:25 GMT
And yes, people are getting dumber. I swear, people are forgetting the basic rules of the road. My biggest annoyance with drivers after cutting through parking lots is 4-way stops. Too many people don't obey them, don't know how they work, or just don't care. I pulled up one yesterday where a car was stopped and was still stopped after I went. The car behind them honked at them and they went so it wasn't a car issue, just idiot driver. I don't see most road rules issues as people being dumber, but as people being less considerate and respectful of others.
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Post by Alexxussss on Oct 5, 2021 9:45:04 GMT
As a 23 year veteran math/science teacher..... Yes. Society is getting dumber. I blame technology and education in general. Math has been dumbed down, expectations have been lowered, I used to give 20 problems a night for homework practice and now I give 10 (of the same caliber) IN CLASS. When I first started teaching, the kids busted ass and got it done. Now, kids can't be bothered to do it in class when they will just pull up an app, snap a picture, copy it down, turn it in. That is if they even bother to attempt it and I'm expected to give passing grades when students earn less than 60%. It's horrible. Watch the movie "Idiocracy"- it's no longer fiction, it's a documentary. Im a 21 year veteran teacher and sadly agree with you on all points.
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Post by smasonnc on Oct 5, 2021 12:42:56 GMT
You've been on Facebook, right? Now that people are fine with having content fed to them that perpetuates their bias, there is no need to think for themselves. Our education system teaching to multiple-choice tests rather than let professional educators work their magic doesn't help. We tell kids what to learn rather than how to learn then complain when they just accept what they're fed.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 5, 2021 13:27:04 GMT
You've been on Facebook, right? Now that people are fine with having content fed to them that perpetuates their bias, there is no need to think for themselves. Our education system teaching to multiple-choice tests rather than let professional educators work their magic doesn't help. We tell kids what to learn rather than how to learn then complain when they just accept what they're fed. This has become so apparent over the last 5-6 years it’s scary.
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Post by Merge on Oct 5, 2021 16:53:30 GMT
You've been on Facebook, right? Now that people are fine with having content fed to them that perpetuates their bias, there is no need to think for themselves. Our education system teaching to multiple-choice tests rather than let professional educators work their magic doesn't help. We tell kids what to learn rather than how to learn then complain when they just accept what they're fed. Sorry, I have to push back on that, and not as a teacher. How to say this gently? Churches/houses of worship have told people what to think for centuries, and no one has questioned it. People who attend are just fine having "the rules" (as that church defines them) fed to them and told not to question God's ways, or at least to accept them even if you don't understand. This is not new. The schools have *always* told kids what to learn. Lists of names and dates, history from one perspective, this math you'll never use, these scientific principles, etc. It's only been since they started teaching kids to question and think that people started pushing back, because they didn't like some of the answers to the questions.
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RedSquirrelUK
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,907
Location: The UK's beautiful West Country
Aug 2, 2014 13:03:45 GMT
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Post by RedSquirrelUK on Oct 5, 2021 21:17:47 GMT
Agreed, but they do still teach kids this stuff in school. My kid was taught how to “count up” in second or third grade (public school). Maybe all schools aren’t created equal. People also just don’t retain skills they don’t use. Most people don’t pay in cash these days, so young cashiers are not having to use that skill (and they’re not seeing it from the other side of the register either when they use a card to pay). Think of it this way - if you were in your middle school band and learned to read music at some point, and never used that skill again, are you still good at it? Can you read a simple melody and get it rhythmically correct without having to stop and think about it? Probably not. Doesn’t make you stupid or that your school was inferior. It just means that’s a skill you haven’t used lately. Personally I still remember much of the basics that I learned in school and understood, particularly what I liked the most, even if I've never needed it since. I learned how to give and count out change when I worked in my Dad's pharmacy from age 16 to 19. I never used it again until I was 45 but I had no trouble remembering it. I haven't needed French from age 17 until I went skiing in my 30s but I somehow managed to find enough to tell some teenage toe-rags to stop throwing snowballs at my brother. To my astonishment, they not only understood, but obeyed! It's the stuff I've learned more recently that doesn't stick as well, however much I used it. Maybe my brain works differently. I did pass my O.Level maths but the whole subject terrified me when I was school-aged so a lot of it never went in in the first place. I just don't admit that in public to judging strangers!
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Post by jenjie on Oct 6, 2021 0:28:01 GMT
I will add, sometimes people are just preoccupied or going through something that is sapping their energy and brain power. We all have brain farts.
I’m the one who will go up and down the aisles looking for something and I absolutely cannot find it. As soon as I ask someone for help, I see it before they point it out. In the same spot I just searched for far too long.
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Post by Merge on Oct 6, 2021 0:42:48 GMT
People also just don’t retain skills they don’t use. Most people don’t pay in cash these days, so young cashiers are not having to use that skill (and they’re not seeing it from the other side of the register either when they use a card to pay). Think of it this way - if you were in your middle school band and learned to read music at some point, and never used that skill again, are you still good at it? Can you read a simple melody and get it rhythmically correct without having to stop and think about it? Probably not. Doesn’t make you stupid or that your school was inferior. It just means that’s a skill you haven’t used lately. Personally I still remember much of the basics that I learned in school and understood, particularly what I liked the most, even if I've never needed it since. I learned how to give and count out change when I worked in my Dad's pharmacy from age 16 to 19. I never used it again until I was 45 but I had no trouble remembering it. I haven't needed French from age 17 until I went skiing in my 30s but I somehow managed to find enough to tell some teenage toe-rags to stop throwing snowballs at my brother. To my astonishment, they not only understood, but obeyed! It's the stuff I've learned more recently that doesn't stick as well, however much I used it. Maybe my brain works differently. I did pass my O.Level maths but the whole subject terrified me when I was school-aged so a lot of it never went in in the first place. I just don't admit that in public to judging strangers! The operative part is that you used those change skills consistently for at least three years (and probably longer, as you paid in cash and got change counted back to you). Good on you for remember enough French to tell someone anything. I had years of French and German and recall very little, and when I do try to recall them on the spot, I usually mix them up with the smattering of Spanish I’ve picked up since. I recall absolutely nothing of any math I took behind basic arithmetic, though I did well enough in them to be an A/B student all through school and went to university on a full academic scholarship. All I’m saying here is that we, the older generation, tend often to decry the stupidity of “kids these days” just as every generation before us has done. The reality is that every generation has its own challenges and messes things up in its own ways. So to answer the OP, no, I don’t think people people are getting dumber. I think we have a combination of normal generational changing of priorities, and a lot of dumbasses able to display their stupidity to a worldwide audience like never before. Someone like Ben Shapiro would have been nothing but a crank on the HOA board if it wasn’t for Twitter and Facebook.
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Post by smasonnc on Oct 6, 2021 2:05:39 GMT
You bring up some very good points. I don’t want to delve too deeply here, but I’ve had kids in public, private and Catholic school. My mom, grandmother, great grandmother, and two daughters have taught. Hands on activities, open ended test questions, and class discussion are less prevalent where there is more testing, mainly public school. Even the Catholic schools employed more critical thinking. Certain subjects require learning more dates and facts, but there are creative ways of approaching them.
“Math you’ll never use” makes me laugh. My son liked math but his friends complained bitterly about never needing it. He had to use calculus his first day of work.
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PLurker
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,803
Location: Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Jun 28, 2014 3:48:49 GMT
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Post by PLurker on Oct 6, 2021 8:39:38 GMT
Merge I agree with much of what you say. I find my kids smarter, or perhaps better informed/educated run me in so many ways. To me it's much of the time and place you were when taught, what was deemed important at that time to learn. Time changes things in as what brain "muscles" we exercise. I think I've learned as much through my kids' education than I did in my time and space, seriously. Whitewashed history, anyone? That being said, obviously my kids still come to me for answers and suggestions that come from life's practical experiences. When I don't have their answer they are sometimes dumbfounded for the moment and flustered at what to do next. That's where I give them sh!t, and I say "I'll Google it." And often add, "Hey, I thought that (Google) was in your wheelhouse." Just jokingly of course, I'm flattered that they thought for sure their "genius" mom would have the answer and hadn't considered the what if she doesn't. 😂
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craftymom101
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,786
Jul 31, 2014 5:23:25 GMT
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Post by craftymom101 on Oct 10, 2021 4:27:20 GMT
I am on year 14 in the classroom and I spend more time than ever teaching students to read a ruler/tape measure in my class. These are high school students who need to be able to measure in feet and inches and do basic addition. Are people getting dumber? I don't know but I an concerned about out reliance on technology, education system and overall basic skills. I was shocked when I realized high school students don’t know how to read a basic bar graph, let alone create a bar graph based on provided data. Their lack of basic math skills worries me.
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craftymom101
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,786
Jul 31, 2014 5:23:25 GMT
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Post by craftymom101 on Oct 10, 2021 4:30:46 GMT
As a 23 year veteran math/science teacher..... Yes. Society is getting dumber. I blame technology and education in general. Math has been dumbed down, expectations have been lowered, I used to give 20 problems a night for homework practice and now I give 10 (of the same caliber) IN CLASS. When I first started teaching, the kids busted ass and got it done. Now, kids can't be bothered to do it in class when they will just pull up an app, snap a picture, copy it down, turn it in. That is if they even bother to attempt it and I'm expected to give passing grades when students earn less than 60%. It's horrible. Watch the movie "Idiocracy"- it's no longer fiction, it's a documentary. I remember being assigned math homework nightly, with the expectation of finishing my homework every night. Now, students just don’t do it. My homework turn-in rate is somewhere between 5-10% of students. The rest don’t do it and don’t care about the consequences.
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seaexplore
Prolific Pea
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Apr 25, 2015 23:57:30 GMT
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Post by seaexplore on Oct 10, 2021 13:58:20 GMT
As a 23 year veteran math/science teacher..... Yes. Society is getting dumber. I blame technology and education in general. Math has been dumbed down, expectations have been lowered, I used to give 20 problems a night for homework practice and now I give 10 (of the same caliber) IN CLASS. When I first started teaching, the kids busted ass and got it done. Now, kids can't be bothered to do it in class when they will just pull up an app, snap a picture, copy it down, turn it in. That is if they even bother to attempt it and I'm expected to give passing grades when students earn less than 60%. It's horrible. Watch the movie "Idiocracy"- it's no longer fiction, it's a documentary. I remember being assigned math homework nightly, with the expectation of finishing my homework every night. Now, students just don’t do it. My homework turn-in rate is somewhere between 5-10% of students. The rest don’t do it and don’t care about the consequences. Yep. And I’m expected to pass them anyway. I offered a ridiculous amount of extra credit over this past week that we were on break. They got extra credit (in a category that is 20% of their grade) for doing anything on Khan Academy MAP (we’re using it to fill in math gaps). Up to 20% progress is straight points. Over that, up to 70% is an extra point every 5 percent. They are expected to do 10% in a school week and I did t assign any over break. I messaged parents and students about it. Anything done is extra credit. The number of kids who did nothing! Omg!
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