Just T
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,544
Jun 26, 2014 1:20:09 GMT
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Post by Just T on Nov 30, 2022 18:54:16 GMT
You must see were I'm coming from right? Clearly there is a line were people begin to find state interference in daily lives to prevent disease unnacceptable (as in China now), but where is it? When do individual liberties outway preventing disease spread? I guess I am dumb and don't see what your point is. Are you saying that in the name of not infringing on individual liberties that we should have done nothing public health wise? No restrictions or mask mandates or anything else while in the midst of a world wide pandemic that was killing millions of people? What is your point exactly?
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Post by claudia123 on Nov 30, 2022 19:05:07 GMT
You must see were I'm coming from right? Clearly there is a line were people begin to find state interference in daily lives to prevent disease unnacceptable (as in China now), but where is it? When do individual liberties outway preventing disease spread? I guess I am dumb and don't see what your point is. Are you saying that in the name of not infringing on individual liberties that we should have done nothing public health wise? No restrictions or mask mandates or anything else while in the midst of a world wide pandemic that was killing millions of people? What is your point exactly? My point is that clearly, there is a point in which some public health mandates become unnacceptable, even in the face of millions of deaths and we should have been able to have a grown up conversation about those limits long ago. That doesn't mean public health measures should never be used, but it does mean that we as a society should be able to question them without being called selfish murderers. Millions of people will likely die of Covid in China if Covid spreads widely through the population but that doesn't mean restrictions there should stay in place forever. There is a trade off and zero covid was never a realistic prospect and we should have realised that sooner, especially after the vaccine was widely available to everyone.
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Post by Merge on Nov 30, 2022 19:39:25 GMT
But they weren't true ORDERS. There was no law enforcement out making sure everyone stayed at home. You could still move about, go to the grocery store, etc. I feel like it was more of stay home suggestion. As in stay home if you can and don't have any reason to be out. If they had been true orders, enforced by law enforcement (like in some European countries were you had to have papers showing why you were leaving home), would that have been too far in your opinion? You must see were I'm coming from right? Clearly there is a line were people begin to find state interference in daily lives to prevent disease unnacceptable (as in China now), but where is it? When do individual liberties outway preventing disease spread? No, I don't see where you're coming from since your entire "question" is based on a false premise. You seem to forget that people who disagree with your choices (what you call saying you're "selfish murderers") are as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours. Are you suggesting that the government should interfere in free speech so you don't get your feelings hurt? Because that actually would be a violation of rights.
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Post by Merge on Nov 30, 2022 19:47:44 GMT
Since none of our lockdown protocols (or suggestions) remotely approached what is happening in China, I'm not sure what parallel you're attempting to draw. These are apples and oranges. Never once during this pandemic have US citizens been confined to their homes by law. I guess my point is at what stage does state biosurvelliance become unnaceeptable to those who called those who protested public health measures in the US ridiculous, selfish people? Is the line when people are confined to their houses by law, but everything up to that is okay? Literal forced vaccination being unnacceptable but vaccine mandates (that lead to job loss, withdrawal from college etc) okay? Obviously what people in China are going through is next level compared to what was experienced in the US, but stay at home orders etc did exist. In the Uk, it was illegal for months to interact with people outside your household, protesters in Canada had bank accounts frozen etc so by no means only the US that has to face these sorts of questions. It wasn't illegal in the UK to interact with people outside your home. Government guidance suggested that it was unwise to interact with more than a certain number of people regularly at the height of the spread. No one was going around arresting anyone. (ETA: I was wrong about that. There were some arrests pre-vaccine. I'll let the UK peas weigh in on whether there was widespread fear of arrest for average people or if this was focused more on flagrant large-group violations.) "Protesters" in Canada did not have bank accounts frozen. A group of people who chose to impose long-term chaos on a large city and grind some international trade to a halt had bank accounts frozen. Again, this is an irrelevant question based on a false premise.
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Post by claudia123 on Nov 30, 2022 19:59:36 GMT
I guess my point is at what stage does state biosurvelliance become unnaceeptable to those who called those who protested public health measures in the US ridiculous, selfish people? Is the line when people are confined to their houses by law, but everything up to that is okay? Literal forced vaccination being unnacceptable but vaccine mandates (that lead to job loss, withdrawal from college etc) okay? Obviously what people in China are going through is next level compared to what was experienced in the US, but stay at home orders etc did exist. In the Uk, it was illegal for months to interact with people outside your household, protesters in Canada had bank accounts frozen etc so by no means only the US that has to face these sorts of questions. It wasn't illegal in the UK to interact with people outside your home. Government guidance suggested that it was unwise to interact with more than a certain number of people regularly at the height of the spread. No one was going around arresting anyone. (ETA: I was wrong about that. There were some arrests pre-vaccine.) "Protesters" in Canada did not have bank accounts frozen. A group of people who chose to impose long-term chaos on a large city and grind some international trade to a halt had bank accounts frozen. Again, this is an irrelevant question based on a false premise. That is false. It was illegal in the Uk and people were fined huge amounts for breaking the rules (and still are being prosecuted to this day). E.g, see this article on Wales www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/people-who-lockdown-parties-wales-22862274. These people were not arrested but a woman recieved a 2k fine for meeting with a friend fleeing abuse, even Boris Johnson was fined!
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Post by Merge on Nov 30, 2022 20:01:33 GMT
It wasn't illegal in the UK to interact with people outside your home. Government guidance suggested that it was unwise to interact with more than a certain number of people regularly at the height of the spread. No one was going around arresting anyone. (ETA: I was wrong about that. There were some arrests pre-vaccine.) "Protesters" in Canada did not have bank accounts frozen. A group of people who chose to impose long-term chaos on a large city and grind some international trade to a halt had bank accounts frozen. Again, this is an irrelevant question based on a false premise. That is false. It was illegal in the Uk and people were fined huge amounts for breaking the rules (and still are being prosecuted to this day). E.g, see this article on Wales www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/people-who-lockdown-parties-wales-22862274. These people were not arrested but a woman recieved a 2k fine for meeting with a friend fleeing abuse, even Boris Johnson was fined! OK and? Still not relevant to the US. The UK, like the US and European nations, has a democratically elected government that can be removed if citizens aren't happy with what is happening. China does not have real elections. Its people cannot say at the ballot box that they are unhappy with Covid restrictions. US politicians attempting to overthrow free and fair elections is far more dangerous to your freedom and mine than any temporary Covid restriction. Overthrowing elections puts us on a path to becoming more like China. So I'd say the line where it's all too much is the line where a US politician attempts to make himself king and continues to undermine American faith in our electoral process.
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Post by aj2hall on Nov 30, 2022 21:18:19 GMT
What's happening in China, a communist country where people have very few rights, is vastly different from the US response to covid with democratically elected leaders. China's covid vaccine is not effective and China has chosen to stop the spread of covid with endless, widespread, extended, extreme, severe lockdowns. False comparisons, false equivalencies and false conclusions. www.nytimes.com/2022/04/27/world/asia/china-covid-propaganda.htmlSince Shanghai’s lockdown began, residents there have railed against the harsh measures, which have led to food shortages, delayed medical care, shoddy quarantine conditions and even physical fencing around residents’ homes. Officials have responded with their usual playbook, censoring critical posts, inundating state media with positive stories and blaming foreign forces for fanning false ones.
www.bbc.com/news/59882774China has one of the toughest anti-Covid regimes in the world. Measures include: Local authorities must impose strict lockdowns - even if only a handful of Covid cases are found Mass testing is carried out in places where cases have been reported People with Covid are isolated at home, or placed under quarantine at government facilities Businesses and schools are closed in lockdown areas Shops must also close - except for those selling food Lockdowns last until no new infections are reported Tens of millions of people have been living under some kind of lockdown. Some local authorities have taken extreme measures, such as forcing workers to sleep inside factories so they can work while quarantined.
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Post by aj2hall on Dec 2, 2022 3:29:36 GMT
Just to highlight again the differences between China & the US www.nytimes.com/2022/12/01/opinion/china-has-an-extraordinary-covid-19-dilemma.htmlAmericans, particularly on the right, have spent an awful lot of time and political energy complaining about pandemic overreach for the last two years. But our restrictions had nothing on China’s. In the United States, many statewide stay-at-home orders lasted just a few weeks. None exceeded three months, and most were only sporadically enforced. As protests erupted across China last month, one-third of the country was in partial or total lockdown — workers stuck in quarantine facilities, neighborhoods sealed, businesses and schools closed.
Ninety percent of people in China are now vaccinated. But many fewer infections there and a low uptake of vaccines among older people — only 65.8 percent of those over 80 are fully vaccinated — means an enormous population of vulnerable, immunologically naïve people. Considerably more could still be done to protect the population going forward, such as more fully embracing imported mRNA vaccines, which seem to offer greater protection than the vaccines produced in China, and pushing even harder to vaccinate vulnerable older people. In the meantime, the risks of reopening are still large. A true reopening, however unlikely, could lead to millions of deaths.
In the United States, where people sometimes say “lockdowns” and mean “mask mandates” and “school closures” or sometimes just “widespread testing,” even relatively mild mitigation measures have grown politically and socially toxic. But the most obvious tools to limit ongoing spread are not especially obtrusive: investments in air quality and better workplace safety standards, paid sick leave, aggressive rollout of those nasal vaccines and an emphasis on the vulnerability of the country’s older people, who make up about 90 percent of its distressingly high ongoing deaths.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Dec 2, 2022 5:27:15 GMT
Former expedited the development of the vaccines. Had he and his worn masks and had he told the masses he got the vaccine and others should also what different experiences all residents would have had.
The denial of all vaccines today will do much damage to children and vulnerable people in the future, probably most of us one way or another. Childhood diseases will run rampant in areas all our country because of missed and/or refused vaccinations.
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Post by Merge on Dec 2, 2022 12:36:42 GMT
Greg Abbott here in Texas is touting the development of a fentanyl vaccine at the university of Houston. uh.edu/news-events/stories/2022-news-articles/november-2022/11142022-fentanyl-vaccine-haile-kosten.phpIf this is effective, it’s a huge potential win in the fight against the opioid crisis. A win that Abbott had nothing to do with, BTW. Research has been funded by the feds for several years. But I’m wondering how the GOP will spin this when they’ve actively participated in priming of their voters against any new vaccines.
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