sweetpeasmom
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Post by sweetpeasmom on Apr 21, 2015 15:49:14 GMT
If a staff member who is also a coach of a school sport does something unethical in regards the selection of the team roster, what would you hope or expect would happen to said staff member/coach? Unethical in question would be creating the roster based on his or her preference and not the scores or evaluations of the independent judges that were part of the selection process.
Second part of this question, should this be found out within days of the announced roster, what would you hope or expect would happen to the roster?
Edited to add details that I didn't before. I was not trying to be difficult but this is the internet and I know that sometimes it's a small world and I was trying not to make it too specific to my situation in case someone saw it. Also, I did not intend to make it sound like these were assumptions, because like I posted later on, these were facts that were found out.
So here are more details -
My daughter tried out for the middle school football cheer squad. I told her going into it that there were a lot of girls trying out and she may not make it. She has been cheering competition cheer since K. So she has a lot of experience. No sideline though. She went through the week of practices and was told by many of the girls that have cheered on the team that she was really great and they all wanted her on the team (yes I know the girls don't have anything to do with the selection process). She was also asked twice by the coaches why she wasn't trying out for the comp team. She wants to stay at her all-star gym and doesn't want to do 3 teams (all-star, football, comp team). I had many parents tell me that she was really good and they wouldn't be surprised for her to make the team.
Tryouts were Fri. By Fri evening, the results were posted and she was not on the list. We were both sad about it and a little surprised. But were ready to accept it as it was. I did email the coach asking what she could work on for the following year, no response was given. I emailed the comp team coach (who was also in her tryouts) and asked the same question, asked to see the scores, and just expressed how given she was asked twice by coaches why she wasn't trying out for comp, that we took that as they were actually impressed by her. I did get response from her that they were impressed with her tumble skills but those had no numerical bearing on the football tryouts. That they were judged on jumps, appearance, motions, enthusiasm, & knowledge of the cheer. And the scores had been shredded to protect the coaches and girls. ( I should add here that one of the girls in my daughter's group did not say the cheer right and still made the team).
Also left off the roster were at least 2 girls from this past season, one of which was a 2 year returning cheerleader and was co-captain this past season. Again I was ready to accept the results. But several of the moms were wanting to know more as to why their daughters did not make it when they have several years experience but girls that have never cheered before made it. They also asked to see the scores and were also told they had been shredded. They said if they could see the scores and know that their daughters scored lower, they would be fine. But there was no way to do that, we were told. These parents did their research and it came to light that several things that happened were not right. They had found that things were done that were indeed unethical. These were not assumptions anymore, they were backed by facts and testimony of those that had knowledge of this. They reached out to me and asked if I wanted to attend a meeting with the admin.
We met with the admin and he was very open to what we had to say and agreed to look into it further. By the end of the day on Monday, the total overall scores were found somehow and there were girls left off that should have been on the roster. Currently, it is still being looked into.
I apologize again for pissing anyone off who felt I was being too vague and thinking that my little snowflake was unjustifiably left off the roster. Like I said, I went into this process with my daughter telling her she may not make the team. I was ready to accept the out come. But after some things had come to light that there was wrong doing involved, I wanted to get more answers. If my daughter's scores are indeed lower than the top however many they agree to take, we will accept that. However, if my daughter's scores are above the ones that are currently on the list, we will not accept this.
I know many have said the coach needs to take more into consideration other than the judges scores, but my understanding is that the scores are what are supposed to determine the roster at this point. BTW, this is a new coach. She is not the coach from the past season. She did coach the basketball cheer team and literally half of the football team was the previous basketball team.
I hope this helps and again I am sorry for irritating you with not giving enough detail .
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Deleted
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Apr 20, 2024 4:33:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 15:51:06 GMT
I would expect the coach to be excused as coach and replaced.
The roster is a bit more difficult; it's not really fair to the girls that "shouldn't" have been on it, to remove them. If possible, I would love to find a way to keep the roster as it stands now and add in the girls who were originally not included but should have been.
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Post by myshelly on Apr 21, 2015 15:57:54 GMT
I don't think we can answer this question without knowing if there are written rules/an official policy in place regarding how the roster is to be created.
Did the coach actually break a specific rule or policy or is it just unethical in your opinion?
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sweetpeasmom
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by sweetpeasmom on Apr 21, 2015 16:02:54 GMT
There were independent judges that scored the athletes. The roster should have been made up of the top scores. Instead this coach chose the athletes this coach preferred, some with zero experience in this sport, leaving some athletes off the roster that scored higher and has multiple years experience.
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Post by myshelly on Apr 21, 2015 16:06:19 GMT
There were independent judges that scored the athletes. The roster should have been made up of the top scores. Instead this coach chose the athletes this coach preferred, some with zero experience in this sport, leaving some athletes off the roster that scored higher and has multiple years experience. But again, what exactly does "should have been" mean? Is there an actual, formal, written policy in place and what exactly does it say? |
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Kerri W
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Location: Kentucky
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Post by Kerri W on Apr 21, 2015 16:07:28 GMT
I don't think we can answer this question without knowing if there are written rules/an official policy in place regarding how the roster is to be created. Did the coach actually break a specific rule or policy or is it just unethical in your opinion? I agree. Our cheerleading tryouts are judged and scored by three independent judges. The final decision on who makes the team is up to the coach. Even if a girl has a great score, the coach takes into account personality, experience, etc to make the best fit for the team. |
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sweetpeasmom
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by sweetpeasmom on Apr 21, 2015 16:16:43 GMT
I am not sure about written policy. But what I do know is that it has been discovered the process was not handled properly.
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Post by myshelly on Apr 21, 2015 16:21:33 GMT
I am not sure about written policy. But what I do know is that it has been discovered the process was not handled properly. I don't think it is right to call someone unethical and say it was not handled properly if you don't know whether there was a written policy. If the coach did not actually break an actual rule, then I do not think it was unethical, wrong, or improper. Furthermore, I would expect nothing to happen to the coach or the roster. The entire issue is moot until you find out whether there are any actual rules or policies. ETA: you even said in your OP the judges were "part of" the selection process. Part of as in one of the factors, but not ALL of the factors. |
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Post by littlemama on Apr 21, 2015 16:27:38 GMT
I'm still stuck on having anyone other than the coaches making the decisions about who is on a school team. I have never heard of that before. That said, I think the coach should take the independent judging into consideration, but since he is the one coaching, he should have the final say. However, it all depends on what the written policy is.
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Post by delilahtwo on Apr 21, 2015 16:31:42 GMT
I have kids in sports and I don't know that it EVER happens that all the kids are chosen according to how they are ranked. It often happens that a highly ranked kid is not chosen and a lower one is chosen, sometimes because the coach gets along with the parents of the lower ranked kid, sometimes because the higher ranked kid is difficult to deal with, sometimes just because! For some coaches, it is more important that the kids form a cohesive team which will then learn to play well together than to pick all of the top picks (and sometimes top egos of kids and parents as well) which can end up forming a team that doesn't play as a team. Too many stars, not enough team players.
Coaches are generally volunteers and it is often a thankless position.
I would not expect the roster to change. If the coach is forced to change the roster, the coach may step down and then you need to find a replacement, not always easy to do!
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Deleted
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Apr 20, 2024 4:33:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 16:35:15 GMT
There is more to putting together a team than just who is best at a particular position. You also need people with leadership abilities, people who have particular strengths (mentally or physically) that may not be reflected in the evaluations, people with overall team attitudes, and so on.
Unless there is a written policy that says a team must be assembled by the highest scoring players in tryouts, I would only look at those scores as one segment of the data needed to build a good team.
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Post by gmcwife1 on Apr 21, 2015 16:41:03 GMT
I'm still stuck on having anyone other than the coaches making the decisions about who is on a school team. I have never heard of that before. That said, I think the coach should take the independent judging into consideration, but since he is the one coaching, he should have the final say. However, it all depends on what the written policy is. I agree, it seems like the scores should be part of the consideration, not the whole consideration. There is much more to being a team then just talent. And like others have said, what is the written policy for putting the team together. |
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Post by bc2ca on Apr 21, 2015 16:41:04 GMT
If a staff member who is also a coach of a school sport does something unethical in regards the selection of the team roster, what would you hope or expect would happen to said staff member/coach? Unethical in question would be creating the roster based on his or her preference and not the scores or evaluations of the independent judges that were part of the selection process. Second part of this question, should this be found out within days of the announced roster, what would you hope or expect would happen to the roster? It sounds like the independent judges were part of the process, not the absolute decision makers. Just to play devil's advocate, I can see a coach bypassing a top scoring athlete who is not a team player and/or has parents that have their own agenda (known to demand more playing time for their child, etc.) over another kid that the coach knows is a solid athlete with proven ability to pick up the skills of a new game. Unless there were firm rules that required the coach to abide to making the roster solely based on the independent assessment, the coach has done nothing wrong and I'd question the ethics of the independent judges talking about their evaluations publicly (how else would anyone know there is a difference?). |
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Post by Dictionary on Apr 21, 2015 16:42:06 GMT
I think it depends on what his motive is which you really are only drawing conclusions to, perhaps he is trying to give the other kids who ranked low or not as high more opportunities to grow and get experience that they lack. And I have to agree with what the rule or policy is that he broke?
Sometimes as parents we tend to be more judgmental when it's our kid getting the shaft, not saying your aren't validated but just that there may be more to this than you think.
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Post by gmcwife1 on Apr 21, 2015 16:42:10 GMT
There is more to putting together a team than just who is best at a particular position. You also need people with leadership abilities, people who have particular strengths (mentally or physically) that may not be reflected in the evaluations, people with overall team attitudes, and so on. Unless there is a written policy that says a team must be assembled by the highest scoring players in tryouts, I would only look at those scores as one segment of the data needed to build a good team. I should have just waited for you to answer  |
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Post by krc11 on Apr 21, 2015 17:01:14 GMT
Happens.all.the.time. It.is.life. And then of course, there the fact that we don't know if any real rules were broken.
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Post by nurseypants on Apr 21, 2015 17:02:41 GMT
There were independent judges that scored the athletes. The roster should have been made up of the top scores. Instead this coach chose the athletes this coach preferred, some with zero experience in this sport, leaving some athletes off the roster that scored higher and has multiple years experience. And by 'some athletes' do you really mean 'my athlete?' |
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Deleted
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Apr 20, 2024 4:33:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 17:07:06 GMT
So, scores from an independent judge are PART of the consideration but you don't know a whole lot about anything else. My guess is your kids had a score you think was high enough to make the cut. But you don't know what the other parts are for the decision.
A coach is going to consider the coach-ability of a kid. Some have a native talent but can't (or won't) take direction very well. They are also going to consider the personalities of the other players and staff.
Without knowing the full rules to be considered it is impossible to know if something unethical happened or not. Most leagues have a fair amount of leeway in what can be considered.
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Deleted
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Apr 20, 2024 4:33:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 17:07:26 GMT
If a staff member who is also a coach of a school sport does something unethical in regards the selection of the team roster, what would you hope or expect would happen to said staff member/coach? Unethical in question would be creating the roster based on his or her preference and not the scores or evaluations of the independent judges that were part of the selection process. Second part of this question, should this be found out within days of the announced roster, what would you hope or expect would happen to the roster? Bold is mine. You seem to think that the independent judges' assessments should have been the whole of the selection process, but you say they were only part. So which was it? It seems like you think your child was unfairly left off the team and that now that this purportedly unethical behavior came to light, s/he should be added to the roster. You don't even seem to know what the rules actually are for team selection, so this is all very confusing. |
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Deleted
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Apr 20, 2024 4:33:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 17:08:26 GMT
There is more to putting together a team than just who is best at a particular position. You also need people with leadership abilities, people who have particular strengths (mentally or physically) that may not be reflected in the evaluations, people with overall team attitudes, and so on. Unless there is a written policy that says a team must be assembled by the highest scoring players in tryouts, I would only look at those scores as one segment of the data needed to build a good team. This is what I was going to chime in to say. Sometimes, it's not simply about who scores the best. There's attitude, ability to be at all practices, commitment, and the list goes on.
Talent is and skill mean nothing if no one wants to play with you.
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Post by myshelly on Apr 21, 2015 17:10:14 GMT
The more I think about this thread the more it upsets me.
Calling someone unethical, especially in regards to their career, is serious.
I sincerely hope that parents are bothering to find out some FACTS (like say whether the coach actually broke an actual rule) before throwing these accusations around in real life.
It is mind blowing to me that the OP has already decided something should happen to the coach and to the roster without bothering to find out what the rules are.
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sweetpeasmom
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by sweetpeasmom on Apr 21, 2015 17:15:36 GMT
More than one kid effected, but yes mine is included. I have no knowledge of scores (including my own kid) as until yesterday, we were told scores were shredded. The scores were found at some point. As of right now, I do not know how my kid (or any others) scored. I actually was accepting of the outcome until more info came to light (kids that shouldn't have been left off were being one of the issues). I do know that one kid scored higher than the majority of the roster and was told they should not have been left off the roster.
My understanding of the selection process, it is supposed to be based on the scores from the judges. That is why the judges were in there. I was told the judges scored and one roster was made. The judges left and the roster was then changed.
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sweetpeasmom
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Post by sweetpeasmom on Apr 21, 2015 17:18:07 GMT
I nor any other parent are assuming anything. There was research done and it was determined based on that that there was wrong doing in the selection process. After meeting with administration on this, it was also confirmed that the selection process was indeed wrong.
I said I am not aware of written rules. I do know that it has been confirmed that what was done was wrong in the way it was done.
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Post by eebud on Apr 21, 2015 17:21:01 GMT
Even in professional spprts, the GM is not always looking for the best player for a particular position.........they are looking for the best player that will fit with the rest of the team and the style of play. That person may or may not be the person who is deemed to be the best at a particular position.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 17:21:38 GMT
I nor any other parent are assuming anything. There was research done and it was determined based on that that there was wrong doing in the selection process. After meeting with administration on this, it was also confirmed that the selection process was indeed wrong. I said I am not aware of written rules. I do know that it has been confirmed that what was done was wrong in the way it was done. Well, for the love of Pete, why didn't you tell us that when we asked instead of giving vague statements about not knowing what the policy/process is? Threads like this annoy the hell out of me. Significant information is omitted from the OP and then when the thread doesn't go the way the poster expects, additional information is added in dribs and drabs to shore up their case. UGH. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 17:22:51 GMT
At this point it is up to the CHILD to talk to the coach. The child needs to find out on their own why they didn't make the team and what they need to do to improve. Talking to the coach on their own shows maturity.
It is the parent's job to comfort the child and help to reach whatever goals that the coach said the child needed.
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sweetpeasmom
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by sweetpeasmom on Apr 21, 2015 17:24:37 GMT
I did say it in my 2nd response. I am sorry the OP wasn't clear. I guess in my head as I was typing it I knew that these were facts to assumptions and didn't think put it out there clearly. I am sorry about that.
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Kerri W
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Location: Kentucky
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Post by Kerri W on Apr 21, 2015 17:29:31 GMT
The more I think about this thread the more it upsets me. Calling someone unethical, especially in regards to their career, is serious. I sincerely hope that parents are bothering to find out some FACTS (like say whether the coach actually broke an actual rule) before throwing these accusations around in real life. It is mind blowing to me that the OP has already decided something should happen to the coach and to the roster without bothering to find out what the rules are. I agree x2. This sounds like car circle gossip because somebody's snowflake didn't make a team. It's always good to remember there are two sides and there's another human being attached to those rumors. |
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Post by myshelly on Apr 21, 2015 17:32:50 GMT
I nor any other parent are assuming anything. There was research done and it was determined based on that that there was wrong doing in the selection process. After meeting with administration on this, it was also confirmed that the selection process was indeed wrong. I said I am not aware of written rules. I do know that it has been confirmed that what was done was wrong in the way it was done. Well, for the love of Pete, why didn't you tell us that when we asked instead of giving vague statements about not knowing what the policy/process is? Threads like this annoy the hell out of me. Significant information is omitted from the OP and then when the thread doesn't go the way the poster expects, additional information is added in dribs and drabs to shore up their case. UGH. Exactly. And it makes me completely doubt the OP because it looks like they're changing their story because the peas didn't agree with them straight off the bat. |
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Post by bc2ca on Apr 21, 2015 17:38:06 GMT
I nor any other parent are assuming anything. There was research done and it was determined based on that that there was wrong doing in the selection process. After meeting with administration on this, it was also confirmed that the selection process was indeed wrong.I said I am not aware of written rules. I do know that it has been confirmed that what was done was wrong in the way it was done. Of course some parents are assuming their kid should have made the team or the roster would not be questioned. Who did the research and found the should have been shredded evaluations? Who determined there was wrong doing and then took it to the administration? What is the administration going to do? |
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