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Post by epeanymous on Jul 11, 2015 16:44:45 GMT
Really? Having pride in the state you were born and raised in means you are saying "slavery was a good thing"? If the way you express that Southern pride is to fly the Confederate battle flag, then yes, you are defending slavery. That may not be your conscious intent, but it's the way the message comes across to many other people, including a big chunk of your fellow Southerners. Yeah, when I lived in the south, there were South Carolina state flags seriously everywhere in my area. It's the palmetto state, and people were proud. There were also USC and Clemson banners all over the place. People were very, very proud of the region, and when we did move away to the PNW, we got palmetto martini glasses and palmetto Tervis Tumblers from people as going-away gifts, along with some framed art of downtown Columbia. Did you see how there weren't any confederate battle flags mentioned in there? I didn't personally know people who would have used that as a symbol of pride in their state.
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Post by tomocus on Jul 11, 2015 17:04:36 GMT
If the way you express that Southern pride is to fly the Confederate battle flag, then yes, you are defending slavery. That may not be your conscious intent, but it's the way the message comes across to many other people, including a big chunk of your fellow Southerners. Yeah, when I lived in the south, there were South Carolina state flags seriously everywhere in my area. It's the palmetto state, and people were proud. There were also USC and Clemson banners all over the place. People were very, very proud of the region, and when we did move away to the PNW, we got palmetto martini glasses and palmetto Tervis Tumblers from people as going-away gifts, along with some framed art of downtown Columbia. Did you see how there weren't any confederate battle flags mentioned in there? I didn't personally know people who would have used that as a symbol of pride in their state. Sorry, I don't know how to quote a quote properly. I totally agree with you!! As I said, I have never owned a confederate flag. I do not equate and never said I equated "southern pride" with owning a confederate flag. I have American Flags, Texas Flags and flags representing my grandsons' school district. I have never owned a confederate flag and have only known two people have own confederate flags and those are born and bred PA residents who asked us to bring them one from Texas and one of those people proudly displays it above their fireplace. My offense was to a specific statement about "southern pride" and asking that people be a more aware of tossing out statements so freely.
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Pearl Clutcher
Not my circus, not my monkeys ~refugee pea #59
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Jul 11, 2015 17:12:03 GMT
I am glad that it is gone and if it brings a moment of comfort to the families who lost their loved ones then it was worth it. The flag is a symbol from the Civil War in this Country over the issue of slavery. Every time someone brings up "southern pride" it makes me think what do you mean by that? Are you saying that slavery was a good thing? Really? Having pride in the state you were born and raised in means you are saying "slavery was a good thing"? Is there nothing to be proud of in the South? If there has been and never will be anything to be proud of about the South, then why are so many Northerners coming here to work? Why are so many Northerners coming here to vacation? Why do you not just cut us out of the union altogether and get rid of us since you are so perfect and never have a "racist" feeling toward a group of people such as people from the South. Do you not realize that your statement could be considered "racist". Having "southern pride" does not in any way, shape or form mean slavery was a good thing. Am I, who have never owned or wished to own a slave, known anyone who has owned or wished to own a slave, walk with my head down and be ashamed of myself for what people in the past have done? Should I move to the North and preach about how horrible I am for having been born in the South? By the way, We just returned to Texas after spending 18 years in PA. We were told constantly while we were there that we were outsiders and how Texans were not accepted there. My boys were 8 and 10 and both never returned after finishing college in the South. They grew up in PA but felt more accepted in the South. School teachers ask us to tell our sons to quit saying "yes sir" and then at the same time talked about how well mannered and respectful they were. When the leader of the Odyssey of the Mind group ask my son to tell the rest of the group what it was like living in a cult or commune was like my son asked him what he was talking about. The leader responded "Aren't you from Texas?" We will not even discuss how often we were asked how we survived living in the desert or how many horses we owned. Not one person had the nerve to ask us how many slaves we owned but they did ask us what we thought the first time we saw a tree as we landed in PA. What? Was everyone we met or knew in PA this way? Absolutely not!! We had and still have some wonderful friends there and we would never dream of saying everyone in the North is racist about everyone from the South. This is the problem with these types of discussions, throwing out statements that are just ridiculous. How closed minded are you to make a statement like that!!! tomocus reading comprehension, it's really a wonderful thing. I never said that there is anything wrong with being proud of where you come from. What I did say was that flying the Confederate Flag, a symbol of succession from the United States of American during the Civil War, where the issue of slavery was decided for the nation is offensive. When some use the term "Southern pride" to defend flying it in the modern day as was the case in South Carolina what comes to mind is why would someone say that when they know that it represents a time when people felt slavery was justified. You did not address that in your diatribe.
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Post by tomocus on Jul 11, 2015 17:16:45 GMT
Really? Having pride in the state you were born and raised in means you are saying "slavery was a good thing"? Is there nothing to be proud of in the South? If there has been and never will be anything to be proud of about the South, then why are so many Northerners coming here to work? Why are so many Northerners coming here to vacation? Why do you not just cut us out of the union altogether and get rid of us since you are so perfect and never have a "racist" feeling toward a group of people such as people from the South. Do you not realize that your statement could be considered "racist". Having "southern pride" does not in any way, shape or form mean slavery was a good thing. Am I, who have never owned or wished to own a slave, known anyone who has owned or wished to own a slave, walk with my head down and be ashamed of myself for what people in the past have done? Should I move to the North and preach about how horrible I am for having been born in the South? By the way, We just returned to Texas after spending 18 years in PA. We were told constantly while we were there that we were outsiders and how Texans were not accepted there. My boys were 8 and 10 and both never returned after finishing college in the South. They grew up in PA but felt more accepted in the South. School teachers ask us to tell our sons to quit saying "yes sir" and then at the same time talked about how well mannered and respectful they were. When the leader of the Odyssey of the Mind group ask my son to tell the rest of the group what it was like living in a cult or commune was like my son asked him what he was talking about. The leader responded "Aren't you from Texas?" We will not even discuss how often we were asked how we survived living in the desert or how many horses we owned. Not one person had the nerve to ask us how many slaves we owned but they did ask us what we thought the first time we saw a tree as we landed in PA. What? Was everyone we met or knew in PA this way? Absolutely not!! We had and still have some wonderful friends there and we would never dream of saying everyone in the North is racist about everyone from the South. This is the problem with these types of discussions, throwing out statements that are just ridiculous. How closed minded are you to make a statement like that!!! tomocus reading comprehension, it's really a wonderful thing. I never said that there is anything wrong with being proud of where you come from. What I did say was that flying the Confederate Flag, a symbol of succession from the United States of American during the Civil War, where the issue of slavery was decided for the nation is offensive. When some use the term "Southern pride" to defend flying it in the modern day as was the case in South Carolina what comes to mind is why would someone say that when they know that it represents a time when people felt slavery was justified. You did not address that in your diatribe. Actually I agree with that wholeheartedly but it is not what you said. What you said I will copy and paste: "Every time someone brings up "southern pride" it makes me think what do you mean by that? Are you saying that slavery was a good thing" I will also say again: We should all be more careful with how we toss out statements. Not a diatribe, just stating my opinion about your statement. I am done.
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Pearl Clutcher
Not my circus, not my monkeys ~refugee pea #59
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Jun 25, 2014 19:51:11 GMT
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Jul 11, 2015 17:20:37 GMT
tomocus reading comprehension, it's really a wonderful thing. I never said that there is anything wrong with being proud of where you come from. What I did say was that flying the Confederate Flag, a symbol of succession from the United States of American during the Civil War, where the issue of slavery was decided for the nation is offensive. When some use the term "Southern pride" to defend flying it in the modern day as was the case in South Carolina what comes to mind is why would someone say that when they know that it represents a time when people felt slavery was justified. You did not address that in your diatribe. Actually I agree with that wholeheartedly but it is not what you said. What you said I will copy and paste: "Every time someone brings up "southern pride" it makes me think what do you mean by that? Are you saying that slavery was a good thing"I will also say again: We should all be more careful with how we toss out statements. Not a diatribe, just stating my opinion about your statement. I am done. There you go cherry picking.... This is what I said in *context*, The flag is a symbol from the Civil War in this Country over the issue of slavery. Every time someone brings up "southern pride" it makes me think what do you mean by that? Are you saying that slavery was a good thing?
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Post by anxiousmom on Jul 11, 2015 17:34:56 GMT
I think, and this is just my impression, is that a lot of us who live in the south and identify as being southern are feeling as though they are being lumped in with a smaller minority of ignorant racists. We are proud of our southern heritage, but not at all proud of the period of time where it was okay for one person to own another person. I would no more fly a confederate flag than I would a nazi flag-they both are abhorrent to me.
At the same time, I love where I live. I love the food, the music, the culture, even the heat and humidity. But if we say we are proud of our culture, then we are automatically considered racists. I think a good many of us spend a lot of time trying to explain why we don't care for the comparisons, but as we defend, we end up sounding like we protest too much.
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Pearl Clutcher
Not my circus, not my monkeys ~refugee pea #59
Posts: 3,149
Jun 25, 2014 19:51:11 GMT
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Jul 11, 2015 17:51:37 GMT
I think, and this is just my impression, is that a lot of us who live in the south and identify as being southern are feeling as though they are being lumped in with a smaller minority of ignorant racists. We are proud of our southern heritage, but not at all proud of the period of time where it was okay for one person to own another person. I would no more fly a confederate flag than I would a nazi flag-they both are abhorrent to me. At the same time, I love where I live. I love the food, the music, the culture, even the heat and humidity. But if we say we are proud of our culture, then we are automatically considered racists. I think a good many of us spend a lot of time trying to explain why we don't care for the comparisons, but as we defend, we end up sounding like we protest too much. I will be in your home state, in a few weeks to visit and my husband and I hope to make it our new home in a few years. I love the South! We have interacted on many a thread about many an issue and I think you know I don't assume all Southerners think one way or are racist if they are proud of their heritage. But when someone plays the southern heritage card to defend the flying of a battle flag used to keep slavery as a way of life, I think we all agree you need to push back on that. Peace, love - out!
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Post by lucyg on Jul 11, 2015 17:59:09 GMT
If the way you express that Southern pride is to fly the Confederate battle flag, then yes, you are defending slavery. That may not be your conscious intent, but it's the way the message comes across to many other people, including a big chunk of your fellow Southerners. your statement was: "Every time someone brings up "southern pride" it makes me think what do you mean by that? Are you saying that slavery was a good thing" You will notice I quoted you exactly. I use the term "southern pride" often. Yet, I have never owned a confederate flag. However, when we lived in PA and were making a trip to Texas to visit, two people from our church in PA asked us to please bring them a "Confederate flag from Texas". Let me correct myself. One person ask me to bring one and the other person overheard and chimed in with "oh, me too, me too". Now I don't know what person two did with their flag, however, when I was in the home of person number one to provide a meal, I did notice the confederate flag proudly displayed above their fireplace. So, does this PA born and bred person and their family with a confederate flag hanging over their fireplace represent racists who support slavery? Again, I am just saying that words are tossed around freely but only certain people are labeled "racist" and there is way more racism going on than most want to admit. I for one, think there needs to be more care given and less accusations used when having these discussions. There have been many offensive statements made and not that it really matters, I find yours to be offensive. For the record, I am not the poster you were originally responding to. However, I do agree with the sentiment she posted. Her reference to Southern pride was directly tied to representing it via the Confederate battle flag. The problem you're having with quotations is that you need to move the cursor outside of the quotation box. After you click on Quote and the Reply page opens, scroll down as far as you can and place the cursor outside the box before you start typing.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 11, 2015 18:02:12 GMT
I'm from the south so I've seen the flag on things my whole life. I understand removing the flag from capitol buildings. As freecharlie said media and social media has taken it and run with it. People here see it as part of their heritage and not as a sign of hate. I've seen more flags flying since this whole thing started. People here just don't think the rest of the country has a right to dictate where the flag is and isn't flown. Why does only the heritage of white Southerners count? Rep. Joseph Neal on taking the flag down
Clap clap clap
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Jul 11, 2015 18:05:12 GMT
I think, and this is just my impression, is that a lot of us who live in the south and identify as being southern are feeling as though they are being lumped in with a smaller minority of ignorant racists. We are proud of our southern heritage, but not at all proud of the period of time where it was okay for one person to own another person. I would no more fly a confederate flag than I would a nazi flag-they both are abhorrent to me. At the same time, I love where I live. I love the food, the music, the culture, even the heat and humidity. But if we say we are proud of our culture, then we are automatically considered racists. I think a good many of us spend a lot of time trying to explain why we don't care for the comparisons, but as we defend, we end up sounding like we protest too much. I am a proud Southerner. Born and bred Texan. Proud American. What I've been saying is that the Confederate flag is NOT a symbol of Southern pride. This is not about Southerners. It's about the Confederate flags and why it's time to remove them. It's about educating society what that flag was created for, what it symbolizes and why it and the accompanying mindset must be removed from our midst. They do NOT represent our people. A small, vocal contingent wants to claim it as their history, their hertitage, their pride but they are doing so erroneously. That flag does not represent me or my heritage as a Southerner.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 11, 2015 18:51:02 GMT
I'm from the south so I've seen the flag on things my whole life. I understand removing the flag from capitol buildings. As freecharlie said media and social media has taken it and run with it. People here see it as part of their heritage and not as a sign of hate. I've seen more flags flying since this whole thing started. People here just don't think the rest of the country has a right to dictate where the flag is and isn't flown. That was the reason for the Civil War to begin with. States' Rights to own negro slaves as a means to individuals' economic wealth superceding the Country's benefit. There was a long, bloody war that gives people of other states particular reason to give their opinions on the flag of the rebellion. South Carolina the state is dictating where this flag may no longer be flown. Individuals continue to have as much right to fly it as they ever have. They can continue to make these public declarations to their black neighbors that they don't care about the countless lives that were devastated under its power. Yay for them.
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Post by sues on Jul 11, 2015 19:27:42 GMT
The confederate flag is a symbol of something that should not exist, so my feeling is - get rid of the flag. The flag may be an outward symbol (although I honestly didn't associate it with that, but I'm an ignorant northerner so I haven't been exposed to it before), but the feelings will still exist. I don't see that taking away the symbol does one darn thing for the underlying feelings.
This isn't an Emperor has no clothes kind of issue. Taking the flag away doesn't do anything but make it a little less evident to anyone on the outside.
That's true- but don't you think having that flag flying at the state capital seems to convey an ' it's OK/state sponsored willful ignorance' kind of message? And that kind of symbolism encourages freedom with regard to expression of racism? To me- and I'm also just an ignorant northerner- that flag flying on government property says " Wink wink- we don't allow racism here. But wink wink let's raise that flag of southern heritage!' And since no one is trying to take the flag out fo the hands of individuals who love it for it's history and heritage, I'm not sure how this is an injustice to anyone.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 11, 2015 19:34:05 GMT
Maybe my perspective is different because of where I live, in the City of Five Flags, one of which is Confederate. All the flags are displayed (Spanish, French, British, Confederate, and American) with the U.S. flag center and highest to represent the different countries and cultures that have contributed to Pensacola in its almost 500 year history. Banning the Confederate flag doesn't erase that the Confederacy existed or that it was a separate country until it lost the Civil War and was reintegrated into the US. All five flags flying together with the US highest is a good thing. It's a time and place that makes sense. RiverIsis - You are on fire on this thread! Eta - Thank you SnowWhite. It is a different confederate flag. I wondered.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 11, 2015 20:11:11 GMT
I am glad that it is gone and if it brings a moment of comfort to the families who lost their loved ones then it was worth it. The flag is a symbol from the Civil War in this Country over the issue of slavery. Every time someone brings up "southern pride" it makes me think what do you mean by that? Are you saying that slavery was a good thing? Really? Having pride in the state you were born and raised in means you are saying "slavery was a good thing"? Is there nothing to be proud of in the South? If there has been and never will be anything to be proud of about the South, then why are so many Northerners coming here to work? Why are so many Northerners coming here to vacation? Why do you not just cut us out of the union altogether and get rid of us since you are so perfect and never have a "racist" feeling toward a group of people such as people from the South. Do you not realize that your statement could be considered "racist". Having "southern pride" does not in any way, shape or form mean slavery was a good thing. Am I, who have never owned or wished to own a slave, known anyone who has owned or wished to own a slave, walk with my head down and be ashamed of myself for what people in the past have done? Should I move to the North and preach about how horrible I am for having been born in the South? By the way, We just returned to Texas after spending 18 years in PA. We were told constantly while we were there that we were outsiders and how Texans were not accepted there. My boys were 8 and 10 and both never returned after finishing college in the South. They grew up in PA but felt more accepted in the South. School teachers ask us to tell our sons to quit saying "yes sir" and then at the same time talked about how well mannered and respectful they were. When the leader of the Odyssey of the Mind group ask my son to tell the rest of the group what it was like living in a cult or commune was like my son asked him what he was talking about. The leader responded "Aren't you from Texas?" We will not even discuss how often we were asked how we survived living in the desert or how many horses we owned. Not one person had the nerve to ask us how many slaves we owned but they did ask us what we thought the first time we saw a tree as we landed in PA. What? Was everyone we met or knew in PA this way? Absolutely not!! We had and still have some wonderful friends there and we would never dream of saying everyone in the North is racist about everyone from the South. This is the problem with these types of discussions, throwing out statements that are just ridiculous. How closed minded are you to make a statement like that!!! I was raised in Pennsylvania and have raised a family in Texas. Before I came here, Texas was an exotic dream. I could not imagine what it might be like, and I had travelled throughout Europe and much of the US. So you've met people who know nothing about your home state. Big deal. I can say the same in reverse about the same two states. Yawn. But if you for a moment think the Flag of the Rebellion that was put up over the SC state capitol in opposition to the federal regulations requiring the enforcement of equal rights among the races represents all the beautiful land and wonderful people of the south, you are mistaken. My children's southern heritage is about as southern as it gets and that flag is in direct contrast to everything they believe and stand for. You (general you) want to fly the flag? Fly it on your own property. Do not presume to speak of it for all southeners, though.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 11, 2015 20:16:30 GMT
If the way you express that Southern pride is to fly the Confederate battle flag, then yes, you are defending slavery. That may not be your conscious intent, but it's the way the message comes across to many other people, including a big chunk of your fellow Southerners. your statement was: "Every time someone brings up "southern pride" it makes me think what do you mean by that? Are you saying that slavery was a good thing" You will notice I quoted you exactly. I use the term "southern pride" often. Yet, I have never owned a confederate flag. However, when we lived in PA and were making a trip to Texas to visit, two people from our church in PA asked us to please bring them a "Confederate flag from Texas". Let me correct myself. One person ask me to bring one and the other person overheard and chimed in with "oh, me too, me too". Now I don't know what person two did with their flag, however, when I was in the home of person number one to provide a meal, I did notice the confederate flag proudly displayed above their fireplace. So, does this PA born and bred person and their family with a confederate flag hanging over their fireplace represent racists who support slavery? Again, I am just saying that words are tossed around freely but only certain people are labeled "racist" and there is way more racism going on than most want to admit. I for one, think there needs to be more care given and less accusations used when having these discussions. There have been many offensive statements made and not that it really matters, I find yours to be offensive. Bless your heart, thinking there are no racists in Pennsylvania.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 11, 2015 20:19:09 GMT
FYI - if you fly the Flag of the Rebellion now, you just might be a damn racist.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 11, 2015 20:22:27 GMT
"Our government is trying to erase white culture and our heritage right out of the pages of history books," the message said.That's the funniest thing I've heard today.
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Post by RiverIsis on Jul 11, 2015 22:56:31 GMT
FYI - if you fly the Flag of the Rebellion now, you just might be a damn racist. I completely read that with a Jeff Foxworthy accent in my head.
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Post by gossamer on Jul 12, 2015 1:37:39 GMT
Why remove the flag and continue to march across a Selma bridge yearly on the anniversary on Bloody Sunday? If one is offensive, I would think both would be. Renaming the bridge won't make it disappear when you keep the memory alive yearly. I have heard some want some military bases renamed. If someone finds the Vietnam wall offensive, could it be torn down? I don't understand why the march is offensive. Please explain why we should be offended by remembering a march where people were beaten that led the way for the president to protect the marchers and to get legislation for voting rights passed? I think renaming military bases is a stupid idea. I don't think the Vietnam Wall has anything to do with renaming bases and you are just looking for something that would be inflamatory. So we march to remember one, but hide away a flag that reminds us of a war that started in South Carolina and closed the door on slavery. It's not the National Flag of the Confederacy. "It's the battle flag of Robert E. Lee's army unit . While it wasn't the Confederate states' official flag, the battle flag was flown by several Confederate Army units. The most notable among them was Gen. Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. And even Lee distanced himself from divisive symbols of a Civil War that his side lost" My relative fought for the North. "Even in the North, racial discrimination was widespread and blacks were often not treated as equals by white soldiers" Renaming bases.. I agree... but where do you draw the line? Rename a Selma bridge but not the bases when they were also named for Confederate figures. Vietnam Wall.. taking down the Confederate flag, renaming a Selma bridge, removal of Robert E. Lee statue, to remove a Confederate memorial in GA... if anyone can be offended, where does it end? Could open up other monuments to scrutiny.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 12, 2015 2:06:32 GMT
I don't understand why the march is offensive. Please explain why we should be offended by remembering a march where people were beaten that led the way for the president to protect the marchers and to get legislation for voting rights passed? I think renaming military bases is a stupid idea. I don't think the Vietnam Wall has anything to do with renaming bases and you are just looking for something that would be inflamatory. So we march to remember one, but hide away a flag that reminds us of a war that started in South Carolina and closed the door on slavery. It's not the National Flag of the Confederacy. "It's the battle flag of Robert E. Lee's army unit . While it wasn't the Confederate states' official flag, the battle flag was flown by several Confederate Army units. The most notable among them was Gen. Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. And even Lee distanced himself from divisive symbols of a Civil War that his side lost" My relative fought for the North. "Even in the North, racial discrimination was widespread and blacks were often not treated as equals by white soldiers" Renaming bases.. I agree... but where do you draw the line? Rename a Selma bridge but not the bases when they were also named for Confederate figures. Vietnam Wall.. taking down the Confederate flag, renaming a Selma bridge, removal of Robert E. Lee statue, to remove a Confederate memorial in GA... if anyone can be offended, where does it end? Could open up other monuments to scrutiny. If by the word "anyone" you are referring to all descendants of black slaves, all persons of color who have had their civil rights suppressed, all persons who's ancestors fought for equality before, during and after the Civil War, and all persons from every creed, color, ethnicity and religion that think a flag that was used as the symbol to destroy our American unity has no place literally being waved high and proud as a symbol of the government it provides to the citizens of that jurisdiction, then I consider the sum offense taken to be considerable enough for that state to recognize it is a symbol not justified as representative of its people and therefore not worthy to be used. I don't believe there is enough budget anywhere for the removal of all the memorials, nor is it likely that this will happen any time soon. It's just not practical. Where does it end? Often when it comes to footing the bill.
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Post by trainscrapper on Jul 12, 2015 2:31:46 GMT
I have not read this entire thread so if this has been mentioned before, sorry for the repeat. Anyway, I think this whole issue is a prime example of how in today's world, people like to think if something is "swept under the rug" it will go away. In 1961, the battle flag was hoisted over the Capitol dome in Columbia to honor the 100th anniversary of the beginning of the Civil War. It last flew on top of the Capitol Dome on July 1, 2000 (I have a framed picture of that actually bought in Charleston). It was then moved beside of a solider's monument to keep it on the grounds and was protected there by the 2000 Heritage Act. I remember then, it was a huge issue, alot of the same arguments, comments etc. So here it is 15 years later and just as sore to many as it was 15 years ago. Symbols are like anything else, they can be abused and therefore cause harm, intentional or not.
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Post by gmcwife1 on Jul 12, 2015 6:26:22 GMT
I think, and this is just my impression, is that a lot of us who live in the south and identify as being southern are feeling as though they are being lumped in with a smaller minority of ignorant racists. We are proud of our southern heritage, but not at all proud of the period of time where it was okay for one person to own another person. I would no more fly a confederate flag than I would a nazi flag-they both are abhorrent to me. At the same time, I love where I live. I love the food, the music, the culture, even the heat and humidity. But if we say we are proud of our culture, then we are automatically considered racists. I think a good many of us spend a lot of time trying to explain why we don't care for the comparisons, but as we defend, we end up sounding like we protest too much. It tends to be a no win discussion here at times. Some people pick apart what you say just for the sake of arguing. I've been labeled as racist on the immigration threads because I am against illegal immigration. And this is even though I'm Mexican as is my DIL, my dh is Puerto Rican and my kids are Latino. But just like in these discussions, some people want to cherry pick just to argue and prove you must be what they think you are.
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Post by gossamer on Jul 13, 2015 3:45:58 GMT
So we march to remember one, but hide away a flag that reminds us of a war that started in South Carolina and closed the door on slavery. It's not the National Flag of the Confederacy. "It's the battle flag of Robert E. Lee's army unit . While it wasn't the Confederate states' official flag, the battle flag was flown by several Confederate Army units. The most notable among them was Gen. Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. And even Lee distanced himself from divisive symbols of a Civil War that his side lost" My relative fought for the North. "Even in the North, racial discrimination was widespread and blacks were often not treated as equals by white soldiers" Renaming bases.. I agree... but where do you draw the line? Rename a Selma bridge but not the bases when they were also named for Confederate figures. Vietnam Wall.. taking down the Confederate flag, renaming a Selma bridge, removal of Robert E. Lee statue, to remove a Confederate memorial in GA... if anyone can be offended, where does it end? Could open up other monuments to scrutiny. If by the word "anyone" you are referring to all descendants of black slaves, all persons of color who have had their civil rights suppressed, all persons who's ancestors fought for equality before, during and after the Civil War, and all persons from every creed, color, ethnicity and religion that think a flag that was used as the symbol to destroy our American unity has no place literally being waved high and proud as a symbol of the government it provides to the citizens of that jurisdiction, then I consider the sum offense taken to be considerable enough for that state to recognize it is a symbol not justified as representative of its people and therefore not worthy to be used. I don't believe there is enough budget anywhere for the removal of all the memorials, nor is it likely that this will happen any time soon. It's just not practical. Where does it end? Often when it comes to footing the bill. I mentioned the Vietnam Wall, so that ANYONE would be anti-war groups. A removal of a cross here, a Nativity scene there, Washington Redskins name, flying the US flag on the 4th of July.. when will someone be offended by something you care about?
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Post by gmcwife1 on Jul 13, 2015 4:34:00 GMT
If by the word "anyone" you are referring to all descendants of black slaves, all persons of color who have had their civil rights suppressed, all persons who's ancestors fought for equality before, during and after the Civil War, and all persons from every creed, color, ethnicity and religion that think a flag that was used as the symbol to destroy our American unity has no place literally being waved high and proud as a symbol of the government it provides to the citizens of that jurisdiction, then I consider the sum offense taken to be considerable enough for that state to recognize it is a symbol not justified as representative of its people and therefore not worthy to be used. I don't believe there is enough budget anywhere for the removal of all the memorials, nor is it likely that this will happen any time soon. It's just not practical. Where does it end? Often when it comes to footing the bill. I mentioned the Vietnam Wall, so that ANYONE would be anti-war groups. A removal of a cross here, a Nativity scene there, Washington Redskins name, flying the US flag on the 4th of July.. when will someone be offended by something you care about? ABC news or GMA mentioned people are now talking about 4 or 5 state flags that are too similiar to the confederate flag and might be the next things people will have issue with. I didn't record it and was just waking up so didn't catch all of it. But they showed the flags they were talking about, I think they included Alabama, Arkansas and Mississippi but I can't remember the others. So eventually it will be something someone here cares about.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 13, 2015 6:32:29 GMT
If by the word "anyone" you are referring to all descendants of black slaves, all persons of color who have had their civil rights suppressed, all persons who's ancestors fought for equality before, during and after the Civil War, and all persons from every creed, color, ethnicity and religion that think a flag that was used as the symbol to destroy our American unity has no place literally being waved high and proud as a symbol of the government it provides to the citizens of that jurisdiction, then I consider the sum offense taken to be considerable enough for that state to recognize it is a symbol not justified as representative of its people and therefore not worthy to be used. I don't believe there is enough budget anywhere for the removal of all the memorials, nor is it likely that this will happen any time soon. It's just not practical. Where does it end? Often when it comes to footing the bill. I mentioned the Vietnam Wall, so that ANYONE would be anti-war groups. A removal of a cross here, a Nativity scene there, Washington Redskins name, flying the US flag on the 4th of July.. when will someone be offended by something you care about? Whatever gave you the impression that I have been exempt from things I care about falling to the passage of time was grossly incorrect. Make no mistake, flying a flag is a daily exercise in publicly announcing what you stand for. How you compare what I have said about this being the antithisis to the very governmental body waving it to the Viet Nam Wall is crazy. Drive around little towns throughout the south as I have done in many a southern state, and you will find memorials to those who fought and died in the Confederacy right in the middle of busy intersections enjoying a high pride of place. These are the types of memorials most likely to be moved, except that takes money and effort many of these towns don't want to invest in. Abraham Lincoln honored those who died from both sides. The memorials honoring the local dead... who wants to remove them? The statues of Robert E Lee, etc... much more controversial, but who is going to move them? And you compare these to the Viet Nam Wall? I love a good nativity scene. I am not naive enough to expect governmental bodies to display them. So even though I get the warm fuzzies when I see it happen, I know that does not represent the beliefs of many under that body's jurisdiction. Take it down, sad but oh well. Tell me I can't display a nativity on my private property while every Tom, Dick and Harry in town have ridiculous inflatable cartoon characters on their yards, and there's a big problem.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 13, 2015 8:12:50 GMT
I mentioned the Vietnam Wall, so that ANYONE would be anti-war groups. A removal of a cross here, a Nativity scene there, Washington Redskins name, flying the US flag on the 4th of July.. when will someone be offended by something you care about? ABC news or GMA mentioned people are now talking about 4 or 5 state flags that are too similiar to the confederate flag and might be the next things people will have issue with. I didn't record it and was just waking up so didn't catch all of it. But they showed the flags they were talking about, I think they included Alabama, Arkansas and Mississippi but I can't remember the others. So eventually it will be something someone here cares about. As far as I know, just like with the South Carolina statehouse flag, it is the people of those actual states that are talking about a new state flag that doesn't include symbols of the Confederacy. Which I agree with, but ultimately it's their call. It's not like the PC police are marching in from outside and demanding that everyone's Confederate flags and Nativity scenes be taken away.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 13, 2015 8:18:22 GMT
ABC news or GMA mentioned people are now talking about 4 or 5 state flags that are too similiar to the confederate flag and might be the next things people will have issue with. I didn't record it and was just waking up so didn't catch all of it. But they showed the flags they were talking about, I think they included Alabama, Arkansas and Mississippi but I can't remember the others. So eventually it will be something someone here cares about. As far as I know, just like with the South Carolina statehouse flag, it is the people of those actual states that are talking about a new state flag that doesn't include symbols of the Confederacy. Which I agree with, but ultimately it's their call. It's not like the PC police are marching in from outside and demanding that everyone's Confederate flags and Nativity scenes be taken away. The sky flag is falling! The sky flag is falling! It's the end of the world as we know it.
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Post by gossamer on Jul 13, 2015 18:19:29 GMT
I mentioned the Vietnam Wall, so that ANYONE would be anti-war groups. A removal of a cross here, a Nativity scene there, Washington Redskins name, flying the US flag on the 4th of July.. when will someone be offended by something you care about? Whatever gave you the impression that I have been exempt from things I care about falling to the passage of time was grossly incorrect. Make no mistake, flying a flag is a daily exercise in publicly announcing what you stand for. How you compare what I have said about this being the antithisis to the very governmental body waving it to the Viet Nam Wall is crazy. Drive around little towns throughout the south as I have done in many a southern state, and you will find memorials to those who fought and died in the Confederacy right in the middle of busy intersections enjoying a high pride of place. These are the types of memorials most likely to be moved, except that takes money and effort many of these towns don't want to invest in. Abraham Lincoln honored those who died from both sides. The memorials honoring the local dead... who wants to remove them? The statues of Robert E Lee, etc... much more controversial, but who is going to move them? And you compare these to the Viet Nam Wall? I love a good nativity scene. I am not naive enough to expect governmental bodies to display them. So even though I get the warm fuzzies when I see it happen, I know that does not represent the beliefs of many under that body's jurisdiction. Take it down, sad but oh well. Tell me I can't display a nativity on my private property while every Tom, Dick and Harry in town have ridiculous inflatable cartoon characters on their yards, and there's a big problem. That was a general YOU. And yes, any monument because lately anyone can find anything offensive. This one was removed. clatl.com/freshloaf/archives/2013/12/02/thomas-watson-statue-removed-from-front-of-gold-domeSaw this today. www.komonews.com/news/local/Group-calls-for-removal-of-Confederate-monument-in-Seattle-314468901.html"Just because it's a military memorial doesn't justify it," Charlette LaFevere says. "It's offensive." Want a memorial removed because of the cross. radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/atheists-want-vietnam-memorial-cross-removed.htmlCNN host Ashleigh Banfield asked CNN Don Lemon if it’s now appropriate for lawmakers to start a future conversation about whether or not the monument of Thomas Jefferson should be removed from the U.S. Capitol because he owned slaves. If so, do we remove George Washington monuments? And then the US holiday, Presidents Day? Slippery slope.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 13, 2015 22:59:46 GMT
Whatever gave you the impression that I have been exempt from things I care about falling to the passage of time was grossly incorrect. Make no mistake, flying a flag is a daily exercise in publicly announcing what you stand for. How you compare what I have said about this being the antithisis to the very governmental body waving it to the Viet Nam Wall is crazy. Drive around little towns throughout the south as I have done in many a southern state, and you will find memorials to those who fought and died in the Confederacy right in the middle of busy intersections enjoying a high pride of place. These are the types of memorials most likely to be moved, except that takes money and effort many of these towns don't want to invest in. Abraham Lincoln honored those who died from both sides. The memorials honoring the local dead... who wants to remove them? The statues of Robert E Lee, etc... much more controversial, but who is going to move them? And you compare these to the Viet Nam Wall? I love a good nativity scene. I am not naive enough to expect governmental bodies to display them. So even though I get the warm fuzzies when I see it happen, I know that does not represent the beliefs of many under that body's jurisdiction. Take it down, sad but oh well. Tell me I can't display a nativity on my private property while every Tom, Dick and Harry in town have ridiculous inflatable cartoon characters on their yards, and there's a big problem. That was a general YOU. And yes, any monument because lately anyone can find anything offensive. This one was removed. clatl.com/freshloaf/archives/2013/12/02/thomas-watson-statue-removed-from-front-of-gold-domeSaw this today. www.komonews.com/news/local/Group-calls-for-removal-of-Confederate-monument-in-Seattle-314468901.html"Just because it's a military memorial doesn't justify it," Charlette LaFevere says. "It's offensive." Want a memorial removed because of the cross. radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/atheists-want-vietnam-memorial-cross-removed.htmlCNN host Ashleigh Banfield asked CNN Don Lemon if it’s now appropriate for lawmakers to start a future conversation about whether or not the monument of Thomas Jefferson should be removed from the U.S. Capitol because he owned slaves. If so, do we remove George Washington monuments? And then the US holiday, Presidents Day? Slippery slope. From your first link And the article goes on to say that he was not called a racist when the statue was put up. *This* is a slippery slope? That racism that was once defined as normal, supported and fought in a losing, bloody war by the state, should finally be addressed 81 years later? Or is the slippery slope removing the statue from the property where state government is run to the staggering distance of across the street? Is it supposed that no one will be able to find this mighty symbol of a squashed, oppressive government any longer? The slipperiness of that slope example eludes me.
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Post by gossamer on Jul 14, 2015 0:58:01 GMT
From your first link And the article goes on to say that he was not called a racist when the statue was put up. *This* is a slippery slope? That racism that was once defined as normal, supported and fought in a losing, bloody war by the state, should finally be addressed 81 years later? Or is the slippery slope removing the statue from the property where state government is run to the staggering distance of across the street? Is it supposed that no one will be able to find this mighty symbol of a squashed, oppressive government any longer? The slipperiness of that slope example eludes me. That was a reply to something you said earlier about it taking money and effort. That's why I said.. This one was removed.
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