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Post by Dixie Lou on Sept 19, 2015 0:45:54 GMT
I definitely think that kids can get caught up in a mob mentality. But. But... I can't imagine an entire class of kids (20? 30?) going in on something serious enough to threaten charges. And I'm not a believer in kids being expected to control their peers. If the teacher, an adult, couldn't control a group of teens, how can we expect a teen to control the class? Agree! I can't imagine an entire class sexually harassing a teacher. Insubordination, possibly but throwing in the sexual harassment with it makes me think it's probably not the entire class. It sounds to me like a teacher is being dramatic. I'll apologize if I'm wrong. In my district the teacher can't just say sexual harassment. She/he can write up the facts and administration will investigate and decide if that's what it is.
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Post by jennifercw on Sept 19, 2015 1:04:57 GMT
Also added this information to the OPHere is what we learned from dd... First, some background. This is a yearbook class - so atmosphere is a bit different than a typical class. Eighteen females and two males. For the past two years (perhaps before that but this is my dd's third year) the class has been very much student run, with the Editors in Chief at the helm and the teacher taking an advisory role. This particular teacher is new this year. The kids know each other pretty well. They are all working together toward a common goal and know how to accomplish that goal. So today the advisor asked the students to all sit down (they were up and about working on various projects) because she needed to talk to them. First thing she talked about was how she "fact checks" and knows they have been lying to her. No specific examples were given to my dd's recollection. Then she tells them they are not too young to be charged with sexual harassment. Specific examples given were inappropriate touching, sitting on eachother's laps, hanging on eachother, and hugging. Advisors last major point was about insubordination. She told them she is their superior. She is not the tail of the dog - that the students are not wagging her. She is the dog and the students are the tail. ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) DD does not remember her giving any specific examples of insubordination. My DD says she has never witnessed inappropriate touching or students sitting in eachother's laps. She has personally done neither of these things. She says hugging is a common behavior and that she has personally hugged classmates on several occasions - sometimes just as a greeting, sometimes if someone is upset about something. She says she has never lied to this advisor and does not feel she has ever been insubordinate. We talked a lot about sexual harassment and told dd that we agree with the teacher that some of those behaviors could indeed be considered sexual harassment. DH feels like advisor has seen some issues that may begin to be a problem and was trying to educate the class. We talked about this too. DD did not completely discount this as a possibility but said it felt very much like an accusation - to her personally and to some of the others in the class. She said the feeling in the room was shock and discomfort. DD also maintains that this was out of the blue - that advisor has not previously given any warnings about these types of behaviors. To DD's knowledge, the advisor has not officially written anyone up for any of this. She told the class that she could and would. I'm not sure if this is an over reaction by my dd or by the advisor - or perhaps both? I'm feeling like my next step needs to be to ask this teacher for specific examples of lying, insubordination, or sexual harassment that involve our dd. Sidenote: dd was recently recommended to compete for a very prestigious honors program in our state. Guess who the recommending teacher was?
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Post by jennifercw on Sept 19, 2015 1:11:26 GMT
P.S. I thought for sure you were going to say that you accused your class of these things! ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/MNrJDkDuSwqIMVw33MdD.jpg) HA! No. I have a mad respect for teachers (in general) - not sure I could ever be one.
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zztop11
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Post by zztop11 on Sept 19, 2015 1:34:33 GMT
Since this is a "touchy" subject in more then one way, I might ask for help from the guidance office for this one. They are a good mediator in these types of situations.
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Post by cadoodlebug on Sept 19, 2015 1:38:04 GMT
Her comment about the dog and the tail says to me that perhaps she doesn't understand her role in the class. She is there to give advice, not run the show. Am I wrong?
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Post by nurseypants on Sept 19, 2015 1:43:35 GMT
Honestly is sounds like there is a back story that your daughter may not know. Also I don't see an actual accusation in what you have said. Leave it alone for now and see if anything else happens or is said.
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Post by hop2 on Sept 19, 2015 1:45:47 GMT
Weird
Is she genuinely concerned they are 'harassing' each other with hugs? Or is she on some weird power trip?
The tail wagging the dog comment is just a weird one. Does she not know what a yearbook advisor is?
The update is just as weird as the OP.
With in the update info Id give zero consequences to my kid at this time. ( if op's kid were mine. ) I'd definitely be questioning the teacher as to specifics about my child and her intent towards My child in this.
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Post by penny on Sept 19, 2015 1:55:14 GMT
I haven't read any replies... My take would be that an issue or complaint or warning was given to the teacher, and either because of policy or by her own choice, she chose to broach the issue with the class as a whole... Those not involved have no idea what could have prompted it, but those that do get the message... I get that it feels heavy handed or accusatory - feels like someone is thinking the worst of you... But if you were at the center (meaning the victim), of the issue or complaint, I'm sure that person feels better and protected that individuals weren't singled out... It also may have been a concern brought to her by another student, teacher, parent, visitor, etc, and not the 'victim'... Someone may have seen behaviour that raised concerns and was questionable even though the 'victim' didn't have a problem with it... Unless there was a punishment or restriction, or a grade was somehow affected, I wouldn't be overly worked up... I'd want to know, but also understand that in a situation where nothing had happened but she wanted to make it clear that it was close to a line, there might not be much of a story... She's responsible for what happens in her class and if she's concerned that behaviour - regardless of how good the kids are or how okay they are with it, she should raise the issue... Now to read the other replies to see how wrong I am ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) ETA: under Canadian law unwanted touching is assault, and if there is a sexual component then it is classified as sexual assault... "Hugging" sounds innocent because it's called "hugging", but if someone "hugs" you, presses their crotch against you, grinds, gropes, won't let you go, etc, that "hug" isn't so innocent... If the word hug is used, just be sure you have an accurate understand of what was meant/happened...
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Post by littlemama on Sept 19, 2015 1:59:28 GMT
I would be asking the teacher what the hell she is talking about (but in a much nicer way). It sounds like she needs a proper definition of harrassment. As for the other, it sounds like she feels left out because this group has operated mostly on its own for years. They may be "excluding" her without meaning to. Is this a class or an extracurricular?
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scrapaddie
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Post by scrapaddie on Sept 19, 2015 2:02:30 GMT
i Would guess that the teacher in the position before was more permissive (perhaps over permissive?) and that this teacher is trying to warn all students before she has to take action. Obviously the behavior in the class has bothered her... I doubt it was easy for her to do this.
a call or email to the teacher for additional information would be in order... don't be confrontational... but just ask for information.
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tincin
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Post by tincin on Sept 19, 2015 2:02:03 GMT
It's only sexual harassment if the attention, speech, touching is unwanted and uninvited. If both parties agree, while it may be inappropriate for a classroom, it is not sexual harassment. Said teacher needs to school herself on the definition before threatening students with discipline.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Sept 19, 2015 2:09:04 GMT
For her to bring up insubordination, here's what I think:
You say teacher was new-
The class has worked together, freestyle with previous teachers in advisory role and not so much as a "teaching" type role.
Her threatening the kids with "turning them in" "sexual harassment" "write ups" etc smells like she wants to be the head honcho that rules the roost, so she is putting those kids in a state of unrest--as your DD put everything was weird after that chat. Teacher could be shifting the balance and dynamic but going about in in all the wrong way--with threats.
I would ask for a conference with her and the principal and if you are close with any other parents of students in that class.
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The Great Carpezio
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Sept 19, 2015 2:23:03 GMT
I really can't say what her thought process is, but as a high school teacher, I'd say she is either:
Young and on a power trip
Or
She is being reactive because admin and/or parents/students have made complaints about the class.
I'd bet on the latter, but I really don't know.
Complaints can f$$$k with your mind.
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Post by 950nancy on Sept 19, 2015 2:27:19 GMT
I would ask to talk to the principal and share what your child told you. Say that you are concerned with all of the kids being labeled as sexual harassers. Perhaps the principal has some insight into this situation, but probably will NOT be able to tell you anything due to privacy laws. At the very least, this gives the principal a heads up with something not being right in this room (teacher or children). As far as hugging goes… High school kids are always hugging. It isn't a specific sex, same sex, different sex, or whatever. They just hug. It is often accompanied by a female squeal. I liken it to dogs meeting and sniffing butts. It is just the greeting of the high schooler (perhaps not all, but in my recent experiences with two sons).
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Sept 19, 2015 2:35:12 GMT
Eighteen girls and two boys?
Either those two guys are getting/giving lots of physical contact...or maybe the teacher is noticing same sex contact that she assumes is sexual and makes her uncomfortable...or maybe the teacher is misconstruing high school girls just loving on each other.
Or she knows something the students don't know.
The dog-tail thing sounds like transition pains and a class framework that needs to be clarified with the academic department (English?). But if this is the first attempt to right the ship (in the teacher's eyes), then claims of insubordination seem premature.
Yuh, weird.
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Post by Belia on Sept 19, 2015 2:42:16 GMT
Dude. Just call her and ask her! Don't call the principal, don't call the guidance counselor, don't call the rest of the parents in the class and organize a mass meeting, don't demand she be removed from the class. Just call her. "Hi, I'm so-and-so's mom. Nice to talk to you. Yearbook really means a lot to her. How's it going? Welcome to Two Peas High School! By the way, so-and-so mentioned a conversation you had with the class the other day. It sounded kind of intense. Is there anything going on that I should know about? A lot of what was said seemed to come out of the blue. Anything you've noticed specifically with my kid that I can support you with at home?"
At least give her the courtesy of a simple conversation where you can get her perspective before you go all nuclear. Teachers are human beings.
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tiffanytwisted
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Post by tiffanytwisted on Sept 19, 2015 3:00:22 GMT
For her to bring up insubordination, here's what I think: You say teacher was new- The class has worked together, freestyle with previous teachers in advisory role and not so much as a "teaching" type role. Her threatening the kids with "turning them in" "sexual harassment" "write ups" etc smells like she wants to be the head honcho that rules the roost, so she is putting those kids in a state of unrest--as your DD put everything was weird after that chat. Teacher could be shifting the balance and dynamic but going about in in all the wrong way--with threats. This was my first thought as well. I remember in college, one of our professors told us it was better to start the year off strict. You can always get 'nicer', but you can't get back the respect/control of the class if you don't have it to begin with. Maybe she got the same advice and while it's been my experience that it's true, maybe she just took it too far? I'm one to see how things play out a little before jumping in. Get more info from your daughter about what's going on in class. If you still feel uncomfortable, I agree w/ Belia - call the teacher. And don't forget to update! This is an interesting scenario for sure!
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Post by jennifercw on Sept 19, 2015 3:11:58 GMT
Dude. Just call her and ask her! Don't call the principal, don't call the guidance counselor, don't call the rest of the parents in the class and organize a mass meeting, don't demand she be removed from the class. Just call her. "Hi, I'm so-and-so's mom. Nice to talk to you. Yearbook really means a lot to her. How's it going? Welcome to Two Peas High School! By the way, so-and-so mentioned a conversation you had with the class the other day. It sounded kind of intense. Is there anything going on that I should know about? A lot of what was said seemed to come out of the blue. Anything you've noticed specifically with my kid that I can support you with at home?" At least give her the courtesy of a simple conversation where you can get her perspective before you go all nuclear. Teachers are human beings. Just for the record - absolutely no where have I said I plan to call the principal, the guidance counselor, organize a mass parent meeting, demand she be removed, or "go all nuclear." I DID say "I'm feeling like my next step needs to be to ask this teacher for specific examples of lying, insubordination, or sexual harassment that involve our dd."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2015 3:15:54 GMT
I'd encourage my daughter to take it up with the teacher herself, especially since it sounds like this was a sort of idle threat, and not actually any type of formal warning or action. I'd sit down with my daughter and talk about what she could say, and how she could phrase her concerns, so she could go to her teacher and not only ask for clarification, but also express her concerns about the accusations, while clarifying that she feels that she hasn't done anything wrong and wants to make sure this is understood by the teacher.
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Post by Belia on Sept 19, 2015 4:03:58 GMT
Just for the record - absolutely no where have I said I plan to call the principal, the guidance counselor, organize a mass parent meeting, demand she be removed, or "go all nuclear." I DID say "I'm feeling like my next step needs to be to ask this teacher for specific examples of lying, insubordination, or sexual harassment that involve our dd." You're absolutely right. You didn't say you planned to do any of those things. But other peas on this very thread have suggested that you do each of them. (Well, maybe not "go nuclear," but you know what I mean. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/MNrJDkDuSwqIMVw33MdD.jpg) I feel like your idea to ask the teacher for "specific examples of lying, insubordination, or sexual harassment that involve dd" is kind of confrontational. Especially if that's how you lead off the conversation. What do you have to lose by assuming the BEST of this person? Just get her side of the story. Her perspective. Then, if your conversation with her leads you to ask those questions naturally, then go for it. But I suspect that if you start an open, friendly dialogue with her, you won't even get to the point of needing to ask that.
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georgiapea
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Post by georgiapea on Sept 19, 2015 4:16:50 GMT
Well, that was an interesting update. It seems to me that the teacher could have easily covered the topics she did in an advisory way instead of making accusations. Being reminded that certain behaviors can bring undesired outcomes is reasonable. Making all the kids feel uncomfortable isn't.
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Post by mlynn on Sept 19, 2015 5:25:17 GMT
It sounds like she may have gone to some kind of teacher training that included sexual harassment. She may have realized that what she sees could be considered sexual harassment by some people. She may have even discussed it in the workshop. And as the discussion went on she described how the class operates. and people may have pointed out how she could get in hot water because of things and they spiraled her into a panic.
Just a possible alternate explanation.
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tincin
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Post by tincin on Sept 19, 2015 11:52:30 GMT
Eighteen girls and two boys? Either those two guys are getting/giving lots of physical contact...or maybe the teacher is noticing same sex contact that she assumes is sexual and makes her uncomfortable...or maybe the teacher is misconstruing high school girls just loving on each other. Or she knows something the students don't know. The dog-tail thing sounds like transition pains and a class framework that needs to be clarified with the academic department (English?). But if this is the first attempt to right the ship (in the teacher's eyes), then claims of insubordination seem premature. Yuh, weird. In the teacher's mind It may be that the girls are harassing the boys. It goes both ways.
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AnotherPea
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Post by AnotherPea on Sept 19, 2015 12:53:20 GMT
Read the update. I think everyone but your DH is overreacting. Yearbook is a different beast and students in that class seem to forget that there is a teacher who ultimately is in charge even though the product (actual yearbook) is student generated. They often get very put out anytime they are corrected or warned and take it as a major offense.
It does not sound as though the teacher accused everyone as you originally stated.
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Post by jennifercw on Sept 19, 2015 14:52:08 GMT
I'm glad I asked about this here instead of immediately firing off a reactionary email. Lots of good thoughts and input. Thanks.
[/quote]I feel like your idea to ask the teacher for "specific examples of lying, insubordination, or sexual harassment that involve dd" is kind of confrontational. Especially if that's how you lead off the conversation. What do you have to lose by assuming the BEST of this person? Just get her side of the story. Her perspective. Then, if your conversation with her leads you to ask those questions naturally, then go for it.
But I suspect that if you start an open, friendly dialogue with her, you won't even get to the point of needing to ask that.[/quote]
I understand where you're coming from. I was quoting myself though, not quoting the exact words I plan to say! I have no wish to be confrontational or accusatory toward the teacher. My child walked away from class feeling like she was being accused of some very serious behavior. I don't think it's out of line to ask if my daughter is indeed engaging in these behaviors. I do want her side of the story. It may be that she can't really discuss the reason she approached the class the way she did. She can, however, discuss my dd's behavior.
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Post by Zee on Sept 19, 2015 15:05:26 GMT
The teenager that I was (rather defiant) would have asked her what exactly she was talking about and to give examples before throwing accusations around.
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on Sept 19, 2015 15:10:37 GMT
Although without a high schooler, I suggest your daughter go to the teacher's office hours & ask how the announcement relates to her specifically. I'm guessing the students somewhat misinterpreted the teacher's intentions. Perhaps in observing the student-run approach, the teacher recognized that providing a more structured approach would be more efficient, reduce the interpersonal interactions (as a new teacher, she's likely uncertain the norm/tolerance level & being cautious) & give students additional skills that could benefit them should they choose to pursue journalism or a related field of study.
Hope your daughter has a great year!
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paigepea
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Post by paigepea on Sept 19, 2015 15:21:38 GMT
I read your update. It sounds like your dd and her friends are looking for a fight because they didn't like what their teacher said. Sometimes - like in a job setting - you take what your supervisor says and you move on. It sounds like your dd might not know everything that is going on. If she continues to be unhappy then I'd suggest she approaches the teacher and asks for clarification. Teacher is in charge. Unless it negatively affects your daughter's grade, I'd stay out of it.
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Post by jennifercw on Sept 19, 2015 15:23:25 GMT
Read the update. I think everyone but your DH is overreacting. Yearbook is a different beast and students in that class seem to forget that there is a teacher who ultimately is in charge even though the product (actual yearbook) is student generated. They often get very put out anytime they are corrected or warned and take it as a major offense. It does not sound as though the teacher accused everyone as you originally stated. The thread title and OP (before the added update) were based on the initial text from my dd. She felt, and still feels, like the whole class was being accused. After our discussion, and assuming there hasn't actually been a complaint through formal channels, I do think she may be taking the teacher's words too personally. I still want to know if the teacher considers my dd's behavior an issue. And yes, I do think some of this tension is due to a power struggle between the students and teacher. We have talked about this with our dd as well. The teacher is ultimately in charge, no question. Hope teacher/advisor and students/staff can settle into a productive and positive working relationship.
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Post by jennifercw on Sept 19, 2015 15:35:11 GMT
Although without a high schooler, I suggest your daughter go to the teacher's office hours & ask how the announcement relates to her specifically. I'm guessing the students somewhat misinterpreted the teacher's intentions. Perhaps in observing the student-run approach, the teacher recognized that providing a more structured approach would be more efficient, reduce the interpersonal interactions (as a new teacher, she's likely uncertain the norm/tolerance level & being cautious) & give students additional skills that could benefit them should they choose to pursue journalism or a related field of study. Hope your daughter has a great year! I think you and Ashley are right, that dd needs to talk to teacher first. Teacher is not new, just new to yearbook advisor role - but your post makes great sense. Thanks.
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