scrappyesq
Pearl Clutcher
You have always been a part of the heist. You're only mad now because you don't like your cut.
Posts: 4,060
Jun 26, 2014 19:29:07 GMT
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Post by scrappyesq on Feb 22, 2016 19:53:50 GMT
I'm at the point with my mother where I have no desire to speak to her other than the civilities "hey", "how are you?". So much to go in to here, but she is extremely toxic, has pitted my sisters and I against each other my entire life, makes fun of my autistic niece among other things. Recently my entire family found out that she lied for 40 years about who my older sister's father was. The only reason we found out is because my father died and when the state distributed his assets (no will) my sister's name was not on the list.
Recently I went through some major upheaval in my life, and my mother decided to make the entire situation about her.
I'm now at the point where I have no desire to talk to her, though we've been close in the past. My feeling is that if you truly love someone you would NEVER treat them the way my mother has over the years so I am done.
I ask about forgiveness because everyone who I've talked to says that I have to forgive to move on. I think I can forgive and accept her for who she is without having a deep relationship at all. What do you think?
ETA: I'm in therapy to address the issues around this I'm just looking for some frank layperson opinions before I tell my therapist that I don't want a relationship with my mother.
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Post by CarolinaGirl71 on Feb 22, 2016 20:00:44 GMT
I think forgiveness and continuing the relationship are two different things. Have you read the book "Boundaries"? If the person has proved that they cannot be trusted to treat you kindly/honestly/fairly, then you don't owe them a continuing relationship. JMHO!
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 29, 2024 14:23:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2016 20:08:55 GMT
I think forgiveness is needed for you to move on, but that doesn't mean you have to move on with her in your life. I see so many toxic family members ruining others lives, (I have a niece like that) and I've decided to just cut the person out. I can't live with the constant stress, and it brings me nothing but heartache. I'm sure if it were my child I'd feel differently, but I have my own kid to worry about that it's not worth it.
You can't control others, but you can control what happens in your own life. If she brings nothing good to your life, maybe it is just time to say goodbye.
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Post by whopea on Feb 22, 2016 20:09:08 GMT
Forgiveness is for you, not for her. It's so that you don't carry that anger, disappointment and hurt with you so that it negatively affects your life. I also agree with the above - forgiveness does not mean you have to continue the relationship.
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Mystie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,300
Jun 25, 2014 19:53:37 GMT
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Post by Mystie on Feb 22, 2016 20:10:14 GMT
No, no, no, you do NOT have to continue to have a relationship. Forgiveness is one thing, and kudos to you if you can come to that place, but you do not have to keep setting yourself up for hurt, dear. You are in charge of protecting your soul, nobody else can do it for you. Hugs and best wishes--I'm glad you are talking to a therapist. :-)
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 29, 2024 14:23:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2016 20:12:50 GMT
You do not have to have a close relationship with her simply because she's your mother. You can love her from a distance.
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scrappyesq
Pearl Clutcher
You have always been a part of the heist. You're only mad now because you don't like your cut.
Posts: 4,060
Jun 26, 2014 19:29:07 GMT
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Post by scrappyesq on Feb 22, 2016 20:13:11 GMT
No, no, no, you do NOT have to continue to have a relationship. Forgiveness is one thing, and kudos to you if you can come to that place, but you do not have to keep setting yourself up for hurt, dear. You are in charge of protecting your soul, nobody else can do it for you. Hugs and best wishes--I'm glad you are talking to a therapist. :-) Thank you. For whatever reason that post just brought tears to my eyes. Its really tough right now.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 29, 2024 14:23:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2016 20:15:54 GMT
I ask about forgiveness because everyone who I've talked to says that I have to forgive to move on. I think I can forgive and accept her for who she is without having a deep relationship at all. What do you think? I'm the worst at explaining how I feel about forgiveness, so I found this article that explains my feelings "Both forgiveness and the desire for revenge are natural human responses to being hurt. We want to forgive--to let go of hurts--especially if we don't want to hurt others, such as our children, or ourselves by having to be tortured with ongoing anger and bitterness. Or we may want to repair our relationship with him for the sake of the children and feel that we need to forgive to do that. The desire for revenge is also a natural human response to being hurt. We want justice when we're wronged, it feels unnatural to just accept and forgive without some kind of restitution. These two desires are often at war after divorce. The real goal, however, is to make peace with yourself so you can heal. Getting sidetracked by the search for revenge, usually through the courts, or trying to forgive whether or not you feel like it or are ready to do it, are both futile paths only leading to more pain. The problem is that we're taught we must forgive in order to heal, to stop carrying around all that anger and hatred. But how is that possible? The very definition of forgiveness means you're supposed to stop being angry about something you have every right to be angry about. In order to do that you have to twist yourself and your emotions into a pretzel, or admit you've failed at yet another aspect of your marriage--your divorce. More guilt gets pushed on you, as if you didn't feel enough guilt. Forgiveness was a dilemma for me because I couldn't see myself forgiving what I felt were unforgivable deeds. I talked to my rabbi about it and learned that the emphasis on forgiveness in our society comes from Christianity. It's what Jesus did, and since we are basically a Christian society, following the example of Jesus has become the gold standard. In the Jewish tradition you don't have to forgive unless you feel like it, or unless your ex has made amends. You will not necessarily suffer if you don't forgive. ***Forgiveness is not the only way to heal from hurt, betrayal, emotional or physical abuse.*** You will move on anyway because unless you hang on to your hurts, nursing them with more and more attention, they will naturally fade with time. Forgiveness may, or may not, have anything to do with moving on. We are human, our wounds heal, hurts of the past recede into the past and the pain they caused lessens over the years. Just like any other kind of grief, the pain caused by betrayal or abuse fades whether or not we forgive our exes. Forgiveness often happens organically, after enough time has passed. "
Why Forgiveness is Overrated
So, don't feel the need to rush forgiving someone. It will eventually happen. I really think the more you focus on how you immediately need to forgive, the anger and resentment keeps building up.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 29, 2024 14:23:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2016 20:17:43 GMT
Forgiveness is about letting go of the burden of hate/bitterness/anger. It is so YOU can have peace. Reconciliation is the process of re-establishing a relationship. Forgiveness does not have to lead to reconcilliation, especially if the other person doesn't see a need to change. You absolutely CAN forgive and let the relationship go.
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calgal08
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,519
Jun 27, 2014 15:43:46 GMT
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Post by calgal08 on Feb 22, 2016 20:21:07 GMT
Forgiveness is about letting go of the burden of hate/bitterness/anger. It is so YOU can have peace. Reconciliation is the process of re-establishing a relationship. Forgiveness does not have to lead to reconcilliation, especially if the other person doesn't see a need to change. You absolutely CAN forgive and let the relationship go. Ditto. You're the only person who can make you truly happy, don't let anyone else bring you down.
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Post by jenjie on Feb 22, 2016 20:26:18 GMT
I was at a conference this weekend and I took a very few notes down about forgiveness. It was said that forgiveness is not necessarily about reconciliation and restoration but about removing the need for vengeance.
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Post by Delta Dawn on Feb 22, 2016 20:26:36 GMT
If this person was a friend of yours would you want to continue the friendship? I am thinking probably not. It doesn't sound like you are getting out of it what you are putting into it. She may be your mother, but you aren't obliged to keep her in your life. You can forgive eventually, but that has to come for you. That doesn't mean kiss and make up. It means "I accept she was a b!tch to me, she is an awful person. She is my mother and I am forgiving her for the hurt she has caused me, but I will keep her in my life at a 2% basis or a 50% basis or a 0% basis (fill in your own number). All of these options are acceptable or maybe you will have something else that will work better. I wish you inner peace on the road to healing.
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Peamac
Pearl Clutcher
Refupea # 418
Posts: 4,229
Jun 26, 2014 0:09:18 GMT
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Post by Peamac on Feb 22, 2016 20:39:17 GMT
DH has done tons of counselling for people and he often says that forgiveness takes one person (you), but reconciliation takes two (you and mom). If it's going to keep causing pain for you and your family, you don't need to reconcile. Often it is not healthy or smart to reconcile. If your mother changes and wants a relationship with you, that's another story.
(((Hugs)))- DH's mother was like your mom. She passed away over 10 years ago, but DH and his siblings still bear the scars of her emotional abuse. DH felt bad that he didn't cry when he got the phone call that she had died (she was sick with cancer for nearly a year), or at the funeral. I told him that he'd been grieving the loss of the relationship for years, due to her abuse. I think he and his siblings (and their spouses and kids) were the only ones at the funeral who didn't get teary-eyed, since we knew what she was really like.
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freebird
Drama Llama
'cause I'm free as a bird now
Posts: 6,927
Jun 25, 2014 20:06:48 GMT
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Post by freebird on Feb 22, 2016 20:46:07 GMT
this is where the "forgive but not forget" saying comes from. You can forgive her, but never forget what she's done. Forgiveness is for your peace of mind. Remembering is for peace of mind also.
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Mystie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,300
Jun 25, 2014 19:53:37 GMT
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Post by Mystie on Feb 22, 2016 20:53:10 GMT
No, no, no, you do NOT have to continue to have a relationship. Forgiveness is one thing, and kudos to you if you can come to that place, but you do not have to keep setting yourself up for hurt, dear. You are in charge of protecting your soul, nobody else can do it for you. Hugs and best wishes--I'm glad you are talking to a therapist. :-) Thank you. For whatever reason that post just brought tears to my eyes. Its really tough right now. I'm so sorry it's hard. There is a lot of grief to go through when a parent lets you down. But you can heal and find peace, and I pray you will.
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Post by Outspoken on Feb 22, 2016 20:59:48 GMT
Forgiveness is NOT permission for them to continue the abuse! Forgiveness is so YOU can move on!
Take care of you!
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Post by katlaw on Feb 22, 2016 21:09:11 GMT
Life becomes easier when you learn to accept the apology you never got.
There are no rules that say you have to have a relationship with someone you have forgiven, even when that someone is your mother. I would choose to forgive, rather then allow the past hurts to continue to hurt me. And move on to a life choosing when and if you see your mother again.
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Post by scrapmaven on Feb 22, 2016 21:09:44 GMT
I can forgive people I purposely will never speak with, again. You can forgive your mom if you want to, but you can also take her out of your daily life. She's toxic and you don't have room for that poison in your life. Sounds like your mother needs a lot of therapy, herself. Take care of yourself.
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Post by papersilly on Feb 22, 2016 22:45:47 GMT
I ask about forgiveness because everyone who I've talked to says that I have to forgive to move on. I think I can forgive and accept her for who she is without having a deep relationship at all. What do you think? I don't even think you even have to forgive her to move on. just move on and be happy and free.
some people can't move on or get closure unless they forgive. I guess I'm one of those people who isn't big on the concept of forgiveness. for me, simply moving on is the release from the toxic relationship. I don't need the "I forgive you" moment to release me. I would rather just be done with that person, moment, or relationship without further adieu.
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Post by papersilly on Feb 22, 2016 22:48:30 GMT
Forgiveness was a dilemma for me because I couldn't see myself forgiving what I felt were unforgivable deeds. In the Jewish tradition you don't have to forgive unless you feel like it, or unless your ex has made amends. You will not necessarily suffer if you don't forgive. ***Forgiveness is not the only way to heal from hurt, betrayal, emotional or physical abuse.*** You will move on anyway because unless you hang on to your hurts, nursing them with more and more attention, they will naturally fade with time. Forgiveness may, or may not, have anything to do with moving on. We are human, our wounds heal, hurts of the past recede into the past and the pain they caused lessens over the years. Just like any other kind of grief, the pain caused by betrayal or abuse fades whether or not we forgive our exes. Forgiveness often happens organically, after enough time has passed.
So, don't feel the need to rush forgiving someone. It will eventually happen. I really think the more you focus on how you immediately need to forgive, the anger and resentment keeps building up.
very well said!!!!!!
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scrappyesq
Pearl Clutcher
You have always been a part of the heist. You're only mad now because you don't like your cut.
Posts: 4,060
Jun 26, 2014 19:29:07 GMT
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Post by scrappyesq on Feb 22, 2016 22:59:04 GMT
I ask about forgiveness because everyone who I've talked to says that I have to forgive to move on. I think I can forgive and accept her for who she is without having a deep relationship at all. What do you think? I don't even think you even have to forgive her to move on. just move on and be happy and free.
some people can't move on or get closure unless they forgive. I guess I'm one of those people who isn't big on the concept of forgiveness. for me, simply moving on is the release from the toxic relationship. I don't need the "I forgive you" moment to release me. I would rather just be done with that person, moment, or relationship without further adieu.
That was how I was thinking about handling everything, but then I was talking to my bestie (who has really been my rock the last couple weeks) who said that I needed to forgive my mother before I can move on. I totally disagreed with her, hence the question for the 'gees.
I really wanted to just walk away because of the absolutely cruel things that she has said and done to me over the past few weeks but then I thought maybe bestie has a point. I'm still definitely leaning in the direction of moving on without that "I forgive you" moment. Honestly, my sisters and I are all kinds of f*cked up because of my mother. I got out for awhile during my teens and mid 20's and I think that is the only thing that kind of saved me. But then I made the mistake of moving home for grad school and forgot what a narcissistic psycho she was until I got married and moved out for the last time.
Even writing about it now I just feel the need to be done.
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Post by papersilly on Feb 22, 2016 23:07:47 GMT
I don't even think you even have to forgive her to move on. just move on and be happy and free.
some people can't move on or get closure unless they forgive. I guess I'm one of those people who isn't big on the concept of forgiveness. for me, simply moving on is the release from the toxic relationship. I don't need the "I forgive you" moment to release me. I would rather just be done with that person, moment, or relationship without further adieu.
That was how I was thinking about handling everything, but then I was talking to my bestie (who has really been my rock the last couple weeks) who said that I needed to forgive my mother before I can move on. I totally disagreed with her, hence the question for the 'gees.
Even writing about it now I just feel the need to be done.
and that's another thing. no offense to your bestie but only you know what is truly best for you. if you feel done, then you are done, period. no further action needed.
my sister has long known about my thoughts on forgiveness and a few years ago she acknowledged this when she gave me a plaque that said "it is good with my soul". for me, that says it all. if something is good with my soul, no further action is needed.
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grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Feb 22, 2016 23:08:47 GMT
I think cutting someone out of your life is a better option than forgiving them. Forgiving them just gives them a pass for what they've done, and they will either continue to do it or they will think they got away with it. It is much more satisfying and much more effective to just cut a person out of your life, and act as if they are dead to you. Dead people can't hurt you and can't continue their transgressions. Once they are dead, they don't exist anymore and thus cannot hurt you and you can move on.
There is no reason to keep a relationship with your mother if she brings nothing to your life. Cut her off and be happy.
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Post by aniheartsjapan on Feb 22, 2016 23:11:20 GMT
My mom has been a very toxic person at times in my life as well. She has mental issues. Seriously. I have forgiven her time and time again and every time she hurts me I pray for the ability to forgive her. It always comes, but sometimes it takes time. I have talked to my dad in great depth about this. They are divorced and he has more reason to be bitter at her than anyone, but he isn't at all. He has said, If you have to walk away for your own sanity, no one is going to blame you. My kids are the reason why I don't just stop involving her in my life. I want them to be able to at least try to have a better relationship with her than we have. We are friendly in front of them, but we don't have a really close bond. It hurts sometimes, but God has blessed me with other wonderful older women in my life, so I just am thankful for them.
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Post by hop2 on Feb 22, 2016 23:16:24 GMT
Forgiveness does not equal going forward with the same relationship as before. Forgiveness means *you* aren't going to dwell upon it or hold ill will. It does not mean the other person can pick up where they left off - unless that's also what you want.
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Post by Ryann on Feb 22, 2016 23:20:18 GMT
I'm at the point with my mother where I have no desire to speak to her other than the civilities "hey", "how are you?". So much to go in to here, but she is extremely toxic, has pitted my sisters and I against each other my entire life, makes fun of my autistic niece among other things. Recently my entire family found out that she lied for 40 years about who my older sister's father was. The only reason we found out is because my father died and when the state distributed his assets (no will) my sister's name was not on the list.
Recently I went through some major upheaval in my life, and my mother decided to make the entire situation about her.
I'm now at the point where I have no desire to talk to her, though we've been close in the past. My feeling is that if you truly love someone you would NEVER treat them the way my mother has over the years so I am done.
I ask about forgiveness because everyone who I've talked to says that I have to forgive to move on. I think I can forgive and accept her for who she is without having a deep relationship at all. What do you think?
ETA: I'm in therapy to address the issues around this I'm just looking for some frank layperson opinions before I tell my therapist that I don't want a relationship with my mother. While my reasons are a bit different, I am at this point with my mother as well. I no longer call her, but send cards on the appropriate holidays. I've texted with her very sporadically over the last couple of years, trying to let the relationship die down organically rather than abruptly. She finally asked me last fall why I stopped communicating with her (which I haven't, it's just very infrequent) and I finally had the guts to be honest with her and say that it was better for me when she isn't a regularly occurring person in my life. I told her that I wasn't trying to hurt her feelings, but it's was something that I needed to do for me. I have no desire to hash out or discuss with her my reasonings for doing so, as it's not about something specific she did or said, it's just who she is as a person. You are entitled to how you feel and who you want to have in your life. Only you can decide if forgiving your mother means keeping her in your life and having a relationship with her. For me, the two do not equate.
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Post by lisacharlotte on Feb 22, 2016 23:22:10 GMT
I'm also of the mindset that forgiveness is overrated. Some actions are unforgivable and I would never hold someone hostage to the concept. I have not forgiven and had no problem moving on. I don't feel any anger or need for revenge. I feel indifference. I chose to forgive my mother because I love her, and her actions, while selfish, weren't meant to hurt me. There was no declaration of forgiveness, but an internal decision I made. I think sometimes this is where it all goes wrong. People seem to think there needs to be a public admittance of forgiveness that somehow absolves the trespasser.
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TheOtherMeg
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,541
Jun 25, 2014 20:58:14 GMT
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Post by TheOtherMeg on Feb 22, 2016 23:23:15 GMT
I like this very much! I admit that I tend to give a giant eyeroll when given (or reading) advice to forgive. It seems to be the automatic prescription whenever someone has been wronged.
Time works better than forgiveness, IMO and IME, and doesn't leave that condoning taste in one's mouth like forgiveness often does.
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mallie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,253
Jul 3, 2014 18:13:13 GMT
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Post by mallie on Feb 22, 2016 23:25:56 GMT
To be honest, I've never felt the need to forgive the toxic people in my life. I learned a long time ago to let go of my anger (in my own time and way) and move on -- away from them.
So for me, forgiveness was simply not a necessary step to moving on, moving away, moving to a healthier system. I just stopped caring -- THAT was the necessary step.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Feb 22, 2016 23:35:36 GMT
I'm at the point with my mother where I have no desire to speak to her other than the civilities "hey", "how are you?". So much to go in to here, but she is extremely toxic, has pitted my sisters and I against each other my entire life, makes fun of my autistic niece among other things. Recently my entire family found out that she lied for 40 years about who my older sister's father was. The only reason we found out is because my father died and when the state distributed his assets (no will) my sister's name was not on the list.
Recently I went through some major upheaval in my life, and my mother decided to make the entire situation about her.
I'm now at the point where I have no desire to talk to her, though we've been close in the past. My feeling is that if you truly love someone you would NEVER treat them the way my mother has over the years so I am done.
I ask about forgiveness because everyone who I've talked to says that I have to forgive to move on. I think I can forgive and accept her for who she is without having a deep relationship at all. What do you think?
ETA: I'm in therapy to address the issues around this I'm just looking for some frank layperson opinions before I tell my therapist that I don't want a relationship with my mother. We share a mother. I could have written this word for word! ( no autistic niece though, just other to take digs at) Forgiveness is for you in this instance. Forgiving your mother, knowing nothing will change, just frees your heart and head from the burden of her assholian behavior. Forgiveness does not mean that you will ever have a relationship with her like one would think a mother/daughter ought to. I keep my distance. I don't call, don't update, see her on holidays but keep my chats brief, I am polite and civil but I do not feel any connection anymore towards her like "she's my mom". It's sad, it's not what I wanted, but I got tired of the same knife being driven in my heart, not being supported (kindness, nothing financial), being pitted against my sisters and nieces. Just ain't happening anymore! I
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