zella
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,884
Jul 7, 2014 19:36:30 GMT
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Post by zella on May 4, 2017 5:55:56 GMT
Add me to the voices above of other chronic illness Peas. Which of my diagnoses is due to "lifestyle choices?"
Antiphospholipid syndrome (which caused Deep Vein Thromboses and Pulmonary Emboli, the latter being life-threatening). Autoimmune disease. Hyper- and hypo-thyroidism caused by antibodies. Autoimmune disease. Sarcoidosis. Autoimmune disease. Mast Cell Activation Syndrome. Autoimmune disease. Endometriosis. Cause? Unknown. Migraines. Probably genetic. Seizures. Cause? Unknown. Hypertension that is resistant to medication. Probably a combination of genetics and autoimmune disease. Severe depression. Probably a combination of genetics, childhood stress, brain chemical imbalance and disordered thinking. And being so freaking sick so much of the time.
I could go on. I am one of the sickest people I know. My body attacks itself in new and alarming ways with some frequency. I've come very close to death at least twice, and that's not counting suicide attempts. If you are healthy, consider yourself lucky. Because a lot of it is just that. Luck. I drew the short straw when it comes to genetics. So did my sister (who was vegan and exercised a lot, which didn't make a damn bit of difference to the brain tumor).
I cannot stand it when healthy people have a holier than thou attitude towards those of us who are less fortunate in this regard. I'm not saying you are like that, OP, but this kind of judgment is an insult to so many and is not helpful. At all.
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,984
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on May 4, 2017 10:41:18 GMT
In addition, if we're going to go down this path, I vote right now that the state deem you uninsurable if you choose to ski, engage in team sports, run, bike ride, ride on a motorcycle, horseback ride, dance, surf or drive in a car.
You should be permitted to eat organic fruits and vegetables, lean protein in limited amounts and a suitable amount of fibers. Absolutely no added sugars, caffeine or alcohol. And if after all of that, you still get sick? I'm sure we can discern the cause. You should have picked better parents. Or a better part of the country to live in where there is less air pollution. You should have exercised more but only the safe, non-injury risking kind of exercise.
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casii
Drama Llama
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Posts: 5,475
Jun 29, 2014 14:40:44 GMT
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Post by casii on May 4, 2017 12:43:18 GMT
So many have already addressed how this is not a black & white issue nor is it a rabbit hole we should go down.
We should invest in people. Give them useable insurance coverage so they can live & work. And if they can't work, we should still value life from birth to death by giving them useable insurance coverage.
To invest in people maximizing their health lifestyle choices, make fresh fruit & vegetables cost less than fast food or prepped food from the middle aisles of the grocery store. As many have said, it costs more to eat healthy than eat convenience foods that are not healthy.
Address food deserts.
Stop subsidizing the corn industry & cowering before the sugar industry. If you took foods with processed sugar in them out of our stores, 80% OF THE SHELVES WOULD BE EMPTY. Watch "That Sugar Movie" (amazon prime) or read The Case Against Sugar by Gary Taubes. Rats who are addicted to cocaine will begin to prefer sugar over cocaine when offered. That's how powerfully sugar effects our brains.
When did obesity really explode? A lot of it seems to coincide when we were told to eat a low fat diet. All the new low-fat or no-fat foods suddenly became available, but to make them palatable, loads of added sugars were added. That's also about the same time High Fructose Corn Syrup started being added to many of our foods & especially drinks. Many doctors are now referring to Alzheimer's or dementia as Type 3 Diabetes.
Why is the question about symptoms rather than the cause? And why are we always assuming people chose to be ill? I didn't choose to have allergies, daily migraines or lung damage from 18 years living with heavy smokers. And by virtue of being a woman, which I didn't choose though I am happy for the mantle of feminism, I get to pay over $15K in higher premiums due to my sex should Trump/Ryan care pass? Hard pass.
Invest in people. Address the industries that are making us sicker than we need to be.
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Post by kellybelly77 on May 4, 2017 13:09:11 GMT
So many have already addressed how this is not a black & white issue nor is it a rabbit hole we should go down. We should invest in people. Give them useable insurance coverage so they can live & work. And if they can't work, we should still value life from birth to death by giving them useable insurance coverage. To invest in people maximizing their health lifestyle choices, make fresh fruit & vegetables cost less than fast food or prepped food from the middle aisles of the grocery store. As many have said, it costs more to eat healthy than eat convenience foods that are not healthy. Address food deserts. Stop subsidizing the corn industry & cowering before the sugar industry. If you took foods with processed sugar in them out of our stores, 80% OF THE SHELVES WOULD BE EMPTY. Watch "That Sugar Movie" (amazon prime) or read The Case Against Sugar by Gary Taubes. Rats who are addicted to cocaine will begin to prefer sugar over cocaine when offered. That's how powerfully sugar effects our brains. When did obesity really explode? A lot of it seems to coincide when we were told to eat a low fat diet. All the new low-fat or no-fat foods suddenly became available, but to make them palatable, loads of added sugars were added. That's also about the same time High Fructose Corn Syrup started being added to many of our foods & especially drinks. Many doctors are now referring to Alzheimer's or dementia as Type 3 Diabetes. Why is the question about symptoms rather than the cause? And why are we always assuming people chose to be ill? I didn't choose to have allergies, daily migraines or lung damage from 18 years living with heavy smokers. And by virtue of being a woman, which I didn't choose though I am happy for the mantle of feminism, I get to pay over $15K in higher premiums due to my sex should Trump/Ryan care pass? Hard pass. Invest in people. Address the industries that are making us sicker than we need to be. OMG, I think I love you! I have been saying the bolded (or something similar) for years as I have been in employee benefits and insurance for ages. I once in an online forum said that we should be looking to the food industry as a start for our obesity epidemic and someone called me a Liberal Nazi who must like to see big business fail. Eyeroll. There is such a divide as to how to address this epidemic. But we can't do nothing. Start at the cause, not the symptoms. Our family gave up HFCS about 10 years ago before it was a trend. I had read some reports and decided we were better without it. It was hard in the beginning because we had to make almost everything we ate. Nowadays its a bit easier. The CDC last year estimated the 75% of healthcare dollars spent are paid to obesity and its comorbidities, smoking, non activity and stress. It was a rather startling figure. I even made a post about it. We have to start, we have to do something but penalizing people for lifestyle diseases isn't what we need right now.
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Post by not2peased on May 4, 2017 13:43:13 GMT
My chronic issues have nothing to do w/lifestyle and everything to do w/my sympathetic nervous system. I'm a bit annoyed at the thought of that. I cannot stand that people blame lifestyle on most chronic diseases. Yes. In certain situations lifestyle does play a role, but in many many chronic diseases it's just rotten luck and we are dealt a nasty blow. You can lose weight and control diabetes or high blood pressure, but not in all cases. People shouldn't assume that I did something wrong and this is the result. I was born this way and nothing could have prevented any of this. ETA: I didn't click on your link, because I don't click on links when I'm suspicious. "I cannot stand that people blame lifestyle on most chronic diseases" it's not that "people" "believe" that, it's what has been proven, by research and science. every time we have a discussion like this, people like to pony up their particular medical issue and explain how they are the exception. If your medical issue isn't the result of bad lifestyle choices, "we" aren't talking about you. It does annoy me to pay more for healthcare because of shitty decision making by some folks. I throw myself into that bucket as well, I am working my ass off to eat better and exercise so I can get off my blood pressure meds for.... you guessed it, poor lifestyle choices (in mine-being overweight)if you "could" be healthier, but choose not to try to get better, yeah, IMO, you should pay more. You can't just sit back and expect someone else to figure out "your" (not you personally)issues by hand feeding more care to manage your diseases that could be cured or prevented by making better health decisions. and yes, I do believe that everyone needs and deserves access (and real access, not that BS our current admin is peddling)to healthcare. and yes, I agree there are many barriers to getting healthier for some populations and those barriers need to be eliminated. but let's face it, there are PLENTY of people like me that DO have access to good healthcare, that DO have access to healthy foods, that DO have the ability to exercise, and just don't do it. we could really move the needle if people like "me" did a better job proactively managing their health. Edited to add that I believe the "solution" is extremely complex and multi-faceted, it's not just about people making better choices, the things other peas mentioned about food deserts, corn and sugar subsidies, all need to happen-this is not going to be cheap, and no single population is to blame for the issue. Lots of things need to change. as for the gun argument, I do agree with that to a certain degree, I'd like meaningful restrictions made for gun ownership, as well as a requirement for gun owners to insure their weapons. Gun violence IS a very, very serious public health threat that HAS to be treated like one
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LeaP
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,939
Location: Los Angeles, CA where 405 meets 101
Jun 26, 2014 23:17:22 GMT
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Post by LeaP on May 4, 2017 13:51:12 GMT
Stop subsidizing the corn industry & cowering before the sugar industry. If you took foods with processed sugar in them out of our stores, 80% OF THE SHELVES WOULD BE EMPTY. Watch "That Sugar Movie" (amazon prime) or read The Case Against Sugar by Gary Taubes. Rats who are addicted to cocaine will begin to prefer sugar over cocaine when offered. That's how powerfully sugar effects our brains. ![:yeahthat:](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/yrGoHMAelQz8f2Qt0sjb.jpg) This exactly. If there were a comprehensive public policy aimed at healthy eating and healthy lifestyle from cradle to grave...maybe. But agricultural policy favors corn, elementary schools cut exercise, exurbs increase the sedentary lifestyle. OP cherry picking health insurance is disingenuous.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,644
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 4, 2017 14:29:14 GMT
I agree with so many posters above me (too many to quote). What is most discouraging to me about these statements about health insurance, pre-existing conditions, etc is that there is no nuance in the discussion. I do believe that Americans as a whole should take more ownership in their health (i.e. a coworker of mine had a heart event and was in the hospital for a few days and even with that the health scare, he has changed nothing about his eating habits. He told me they gave him a pill for cholesterol so he can keep eating what he wants. Come on man!). But obviously there are many factors that play into health - genetics, lifestyles, environmental factors, government policies (look at where biggest agriculture subsidies go, Flint water crisis, etc), poverty. Those underlying issues need to be addressed and additionally, you need to give people the tools to improve their health - comprehensive treatments, access to necessary health care professionals, etc.
I've been thinking about the many tone deaf statements GOP members have been making and I think that in general, if they deny there is a problem, then they feel justified in not having to do anything about. All people with pre-existing conditions brought it on themselves? Great, not our problem and we can ignore them. All poor people are lazy, didn't work hard enough, and made bad decisions? Great, not our problem and we can ignore them. Deny climate change? Great! We don't have to take action.
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Post by mrsscrapdiva on May 4, 2017 14:30:18 GMT
Agreed!
I just feel like there is so much more than just that. It is just not all eat right, diet and exercise and everything will be perfect. I think that blanket statement "some diseases can be prevented by a healthy lifestyle" just isn't 100%. One example of something that is beyond a healthy lifestyle is that I believe that are many toxins we are breathing in daily and we are exposed to in everyday items that are contributing to some health issues (think pesticides on produce) Or younger people getting diagnosed with cancer with no family history or contributing lifestyle factors. There are some things that genetically or environmental that is out of our control. New discoveries are made all the time of what is or isn't healthy to us.
Like someone else said about lifestyle choices is also beyond eating a healthy diet and exercising regularly and don't smoke: sexual health, reproductive health, dangerous occupations, risky behaviors, drugs, prescription abuse, texting while driving, speeding, driving while intoxicated, excessive exposure to electronic devices etc. And then there are the things we can't visually see like mental issues and illness - depression and anxiety etc.
Where are we going to draw the line at judging if one has an unhealthy lifestyle. Why do they compare an overweight person that tries to eat right every damn day and exercises vs a naturally thin person who drinks alcohol, eats fast food daily and never goes to the gym? I find this so frustrating. I guess I am just sick of hearing about this subject because of many reasons. Making sick people feel worse about what they can not control, profits of large corporations and political agendas.
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Post by mrsscrapdiva on May 4, 2017 14:36:53 GMT
Very Well Said casii!!!
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Post by femalebusiness on May 4, 2017 14:53:37 GMT
What happened to the OP? Didn't get the response she was looking for?
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Post by nlwilkins on May 4, 2017 15:00:35 GMT
I have always said that cigarettes shoud have a tax on them that goes directly to the healthcare system. This would help cover not only smokers but those around them with second hand smoke issues. The price of sugar and other foods with extra sweeteners added should also have the health tax. I can remember when luxury type chocolates cost a whole lot more than they do now. Health taxes could be added to those. These taxes should go directly to the health care industry in some way. But the biggest issue for me is the air polluters. I had to leave my home of 30 years where I raised my children all because the refineries along the ship channel pollute the area to an alarming degree. Most of them are grandfathered in and don't have to abide by current standards. Then when they do pay fines it is like a slap on the wrist. Several times a week we would see flares where the refinery had to burn off product due to issues with there system. These would cause the air to be foul for days. Then thee are the radiation levels in the US. There was so much radiation let loose into our atmosphere by testing and so forth that if another country had done this to us we would have gone to war over it. These are thing that can addressed without digging into people's lives and blaming them for their health issues.
If we tackle these problems from this angle, then it makes it easier to live healthier and eat healthier. Right now it cost significantly more to eat healthy, It takes skills and time to cook healthy that the many don't have.
Exercise? I think of my husband who had to climb flights and flights of ladders to work on those blasted refineries every day and who had to ride a bike around the plant hauling heavy tools and parts. There was no energy left at the end of the day for exercise. The two of us were worn to the bone at the end of the day with no time or energy left for exercise. We knew what we did at work was not the kind of exercise needed to keep healthy, but it just wasn't going to happen. When I finally got a job that was not so hard on my body, the time was not there nor the money to purchase a gym membership. Doing anything like walking or riding bikes in our neighborhood was not safe.
We are middle class income family. If it was so hard on us, just think about the poorer families. Many who have two or three jobs to just get by. There is no way they could afford healthier food or have time for exercise. Lets work on fixing that rather than blaming the victim for making poor health decisions. For many of them these decisions are made for them by the way they have to live. Lets make being healthy an easier decision to make,rather than something only the wealthy can afford.
But above all, lets acknowledge the fact that it is a complex issue and while for some it may be poor decision making that leads to their poor health, for most these decisions are not something they make but are made for them or things they inherited.
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Post by CarolinaGirl71 on May 4, 2017 15:26:48 GMT
Walter Willett is a professor of nutrition and epidemiology at the Harvard School of Public Health and has published more than 1500 articles. He is currently one of the primary researchers of the Harvard Nurses’ Health Study 2, which is a longitudinal study of the health of nurses over many years beginning in 1989 and continuing to this day. Ninety percent of nurses originally in the study (including me!) still participate. What say the peas? I'm also a proud member and participant in the Harvard Nurses' Health Study 2!!! In theory, I somewhat agree with you, but there is so much controversy about what a healthy lifestyle consists of, it would be hard to enforce. Just with Type 2 Diabetes, the ADA recommended diet vs. low-carb high-fat diet being the most effective and healthiest - who is to say what's right for each individual?
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Post by Merge on May 4, 2017 15:52:52 GMT
What happened to the OP? Didn't get the response she was looking for? Generally the people who say they want to talk about "responsibility and health" are really just looking to have a nice fat-bashing session. And that is, of course, really a poor- and minority-bashing session, since those demographics are far more likely to be overweight. (My fat, white, relatively affluent ass has very little excuse except possibly the psychological one. I've been self-medicating with food for decades and it's not as simple as just "eat less/healthier" as some people would like to make it. BUT I don't live a food desert. I have access to good health care, I'm not working three jobs to get by, I'm educated and I had a mom who taught me to cook real food from scratch. And I'm aware that so many people are not so lucky.)
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,644
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 4, 2017 15:54:34 GMT
Walter Willett is a professor of nutrition and epidemiology at the Harvard School of Public Health and has published more than 1500 articles. He is currently one of the primary researchers of the Harvard Nurses’ Health Study 2, which is a longitudinal study of the health of nurses over many years beginning in 1989 and continuing to this day. Ninety percent of nurses originally in the study (including me!) still participate. What say the peas? I'm also a proud member and participant in the Harvard Nurses' Health Study 2!!! In theory, I somewhat agree with you, but there is so much controversy about what a healthy lifestyle consists of, it would be hard to enforce. Just with Type 2 Diabetes, the ADA recommended diet vs. low-carb high-fat diet being the most effective and healthiest - who is to say what's right for each individual? Not to mention the message has changed over time. The fad in the 80s/90s was low fat - but that just got people on carbs. And eggs. Eggs good. Eggs bad. Eggs good. Eggs bad. Feels like a roulette wheel. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/OrTI4SBmZ2ZYSFv6ag4f.jpg)
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Post by crimsoncat05 on May 4, 2017 15:57:22 GMT
Why is the question about symptoms rather than the cause? And why are we always assuming people chose to be ill? To invest in people maximizing their health lifestyle choices, make fresh fruit & vegetables cost less than fast food or prepped food from the middle aisles of the grocery store. As many have said, it costs more to eat healthy than eat convenience foods that are not healthy. Address food deserts. Stop subsidizing the corn industry & cowering before the sugar industry. If you took foods with processed sugar in them out of our stores, 80% OF THE SHELVES WOULD BE EMPTY. Watch "That Sugar Movie" (amazon prime) or read The Case Against Sugar by Gary Taubes. Rats who are addicted to cocaine will begin to prefer sugar over cocaine when offered. That's how powerfully sugar effects our brains. When did obesity really explode? A lot of it seems to coincide when we were told to eat a low fat diet. All the new low-fat or no-fat foods suddenly became available, but to make them palatable, loads of added sugars were added. That's also about the same time High Fructose Corn Syrup started being added to many of our foods & especially drinks. Many doctors are now referring to Alzheimer's or dementia as Type 3 Diabetes. Why is the question about symptoms rather than the cause? And why are we always assuming people chose to be ill? I didn't choose to have allergies, daily migraines or lung damage from 18 years living with heavy smokers. And by virtue of being a woman, which I didn't choose though I am happy for the mantle of feminism, I get to pay over $15K in higher premiums due to my sex should Trump/Ryan care pass? Hard pass. Invest in people. Address the industries that are making us sicker than we need to be. Ditto to that entire post. Bravo!!!
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Post by crimsoncat05 on May 4, 2017 16:03:46 GMT
I am working my ass off to eat better and exercise so I can get off my blood pressure meds for.... you guessed it, poor lifestyle choices (in mine-being overweight)if you "could" be healthier, but choose not to try to get better, yeah, IMO, you should pay more. ^^^ do you have a kitchen? do you have access to fresh fruits and vegetables? do you have the money to pay for them, if you DO have access to purchasing them? do you have the knowledge of HOW to cook them so that they're healthier for you, rather than frying them, or just grabbing something off the dollar menu at McDonald's?? If so, then you have a LOT more going for you than some people out there- so not everyone CHOOSES to be obese. Some people have other hard choices they have to make, and taking the time to ride the bus to a grocery store (because there isn't one in their neighborhood), paying money they don't have, to buy fresh broccoli and cauliflower that they don't have a place to cook in their long-term motel room (because they can't afford a 'real' apartment due to their minimum wage job not paying enough for them to put down the 2 month deposit), just ISN'T a choice they have the 'luxury' of making.
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bbchangeup
Shy Member
Posts: 38
Jun 25, 2016 18:46:59 GMT
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Post by bbchangeup on May 4, 2017 16:24:20 GMT
You teach public health at a major university and you're coming here for answers to these questions??? I call BS. Yes, that's what I do. I'm not looking for answers, I'm looking for opinions about what people believe about our own level of responsibility for our health. The responses have been really interesting to read. The literature shows us that the answer will have to be multi-faceted, and will meet with much political resistance, because we are in a crisis with childhood obesity which leads to many of the preventable diseases that cost millions in adulthood. Big ag is very powerful --- I live in the midwest where agriculture rules. We go apoplectic in my state whenever we hear of studies that say we should eat less beef, but that's exactly what we should be doing. There are many people who suffer serious illnesses with little to no actions on their part bringing that illness about. One of my sons is currently in the fight of his life over such an issue. My question for the peas, however wasn't about those situations. My question was, from the standpoint of having a healthier populace, what would you think of people paying more for insurance if they smoke, are significantly overweight, etc. Just looking for opinions. As keithurbanlovinpea stated, maybe start with a certain rate and LOWER the rate based on healthy choices. For sure, a number of peas have mentioned the cost of healthy food being an obstacle, which is a legitimate concern. The town I live in is a Blue Zone community and has come up with some really creative ways to get people up, moving, and eating better. That's why I asked --- if it cost us more for insurance if we make less healthy choices, if the opportunities were there for improving our individual health, would we take advantage of them? Femalebusiness wondered what happened to me as I must not have checked back soon enough - ha! I'm working - end of the semester, working all hours, came to 2peas for a break. I appreciate the responses, they are exactly what I was looking for - opinions about this topic. Going forward, as we look at health care policy and how to address the cost of health care in the United States, we will come to a tipping point where we realize that it's not enough to "get insurance" for people without so much as a peep about what we should all be doing to improve our own health. And yes, as I was pondering this last night, I was eating licorice. No "holier-than-thou" attitude here. As I've gotten older, though, I have done better at all phases of health - diet, exercise, healthy choices and avoiding those things I know are detrimental. Most cost me nothing (walking trails, community challenges) - but I recognize that there is a cost involved for some so that it might limit access. We cannot argue the fact, though, that the key to controlling health care costs is to control our own individual situations in any way we can. That is easier for some than others, and some, despite healthy choices, will develop diseases that they could not avoid. But if 90% of diabetes occurs because of lifestyle, it's pretty clear that all the insurance in the world won't change that...and we have to figure out how to avoid it rather than figure out how to pay for all the awful (and awfully expensive) complications caused by diabetes. Public health nursing, my area of concentration, would welcome any changes in funding that emphasize prevention rather than treatment. That's why I asked the original question. I saw a recent study that asked people simple questions like "Do you appreciate that there walking/bike trails in your town?" Response 95% "Yes." Next question - "Do you use the walking trails in your city/town?" Yes response 35% (which is actually pretty good). Obviously, some people wouldn't be physically able. But a half hour a day for each of us would be a tremendous improvement. Another question was "You do not smoke. Your neighbor does. Should you pay the same for health insurance?" I can't remember the percentage, but it was above 90% that believed the non-smoker should pay less. Those are the kinds of things I'm wondering about. Health care is already 1/6 of our economy and with the way we are trending with childhood obesity alone, that will increase dramatically in the future. It will likely happen after my working years are done, but the young peas here will be dealing with the question of how we get those costs under control. Providing insurance for everyone is a great idea, it just doesn't solve the original problem.
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,029
Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
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Post by huskergal on May 4, 2017 16:38:16 GMT
Add me to the voices above of other chronic illness Peas. Which of my diagnoses is due to "lifestyle choices?" Antiphospholipid syndrome (which caused Deep Vein Thromboses and Pulmonary Emboli, the latter being life-threatening). Autoimmune disease. Hyper- and hypo-thyroidism caused by antibodies. Autoimmune disease. Sarcoidosis. Autoimmune disease. Mast Cell Activation Syndrome. Autoimmune disease. Endometriosis. Cause? Unknown. Migraines. Probably genetic. Seizures. Cause? Unknown. Hypertension that is resistant to medication. Probably a combination of genetics and autoimmune disease. Severe depression. Probably a combination of genetics, childhood stress, brain chemical imbalance and disordered thinking. And being so freaking sick so much of the time. I could go on. I am one of the sickest people I know. My body attacks itself in new and alarming ways with some frequency. I've come very close to death at least twice, and that's not counting suicide attempts. If you are healthy, consider yourself lucky. Because a lot of it is just that. Luck. I drew the short straw when it comes to genetics. So did my sister (who was vegan and exercised a lot, which didn't make a damn bit of difference to the brain tumor). I cannot stand it when healthy people have a holier than thou attitude towards those of us who are less fortunate in this regard. I'm not saying you are like that, OP, but this kind of judgment is an insult to so many and is not helpful. At all. I am so sorry you are dealing with all of this. I agree 100% about the holier than thou.
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Post by not2peased on May 4, 2017 16:47:10 GMT
I am working my ass off to eat better and exercise so I can get off my blood pressure meds for.... you guessed it, poor lifestyle choices (in mine-being overweight)if you "could" be healthier, but choose not to try to get better, yeah, IMO, you should pay more. ^^^ do you have a kitchen? do you have access to fresh fruits and vegetables? do you have the money to pay for them, if you DO have access to purchasing them? do you have the knowledge of HOW to cook them so that they're healthier for you, rather than frying them, or just grabbing something off the dollar menu at McDonald's?? If so, then you have a LOT more going for you than some people out there- so not everyone CHOOSES to be obese. Some people have other hard choices they have to make, and taking the time to ride the bus to a grocery store (because there isn't one in their neighborhood), paying money they don't have, to buy fresh broccoli and cauliflower that they don't have a place to cook in their long-term motel room (because they can't afford a 'real' apartment due to their minimum wage job not paying enough for them to put down the 2 month deposit), just ISN'T a choice they have the 'luxury' of making. I'm not sure you understood my post but I will explain further and say that I agree that there are MANY barriers that exist today, that make it extremely difficult, if not impossible for some folks to be able to better manage their diet and exercise and those barriers have got to be reduced significantly in order to make this type of expectation fair for everyone. I KNOW that the issue is complex with MANY factors (not just diet and exercise)I am simply pointing out that I cant sit on my middle class, comfortable, ass and say I "can't" or shouldn't have to get healthier so I can reduce my health care expenses and consumption. also, there are many, many people like me, that don't have significant barriers to getting healthy, we just can't/won't do it. I understand trying and failing-I do it myself, time and time again. what I don't understand why people don't try to get healthier if they don't have an excuse not to try. before anyone tells me about how they fell off their diet plan because their entire family died, their house burned down, they lost their job, got sick, etc. I am talking about the average person like me, who just shrugs off their terrible diet, and total lack of exercise like its no big deal
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bbchangeup
Shy Member
Posts: 38
Jun 25, 2016 18:46:59 GMT
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Post by bbchangeup on May 4, 2017 17:03:39 GMT
I am so sorry you are dealing with all of this. I agree 100% about the holier than thou. So do I, and my original post is anything but that. From a personal standpoint, and dealing with what we are with our son (who is getting his treatment in your great state of Nebraska) I identify with zella 100%. I mentioned in my very first paragraph that I wasn't talking about those situations. One of my students worked with a school nurse a couple semesters ago and they had seen a dramatic increase in childhood obesity in their elementary school. They track weights annually, and were involved in a study at the university where I work. The grant included money available for various interventions - gym memberships, bicycles for the children, "nutrition on a budget" sessions for anyone interested, etc. There were many helpful tools for people who were concerned about the increase in weight of their children. Some, however, were just angry that the school was "interfering." I get that, too -- but obviously there was a problem. That is the challenge of public health. I guess it's a bigger societal issue, if you look at where we assign responsibility. Schools are now responsible for academic achievement of students even though students may come hungry, tired, and/or from really challenging home situations. Hospitals are paid less by Medicare if patients don't meet certain guidelines or goals, as if the patient has no responsibility, only the hospital staff. It is a societal shift in who we believe is responsible for all aspects of our lives. Without looking at any individual's personal situation, read this quote: “Among U.S. adults, more than 90 percent of type 2 diabetes, 80 percent of CAD, 70 percent of stroke, and 70 percent of colon cancer are potentially preventable by a combination of nonsmoking, avoidance of overweight, moderate physical activity, healthy diet, and moderate alcohol consumption” (Willett 2002). Two things strike me (1) Those are big percentages of theoretically preventable diseases - shouldn't we do what we can, as individuals and as a society, to lower those rates (2) The interventions they list as how to prevent these are FREE except for diet - and in fact they SAVE money (avoiding tobacco and alcohol). It's not black and white, as there is not always cause and effect, but those statistics are pretty convincing in pushing us to look at how we reach individuals to improve their own personal situations. Looking at the health of Americans as a whole, we have some serious thinking to do about how to improve our health - which will improve our quality of life, and to get costs under control. One will accomplish the other.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 4, 2017 17:18:01 GMT
Well I am a complete hypocrite. My ex had a heart attack and a stroke last year. I shake my head wondering why that wasn't enough incentive for him to quit smoking and stop his excessive drinking.
In the meantime, I smoke and am overweight and I blame my bipolar. The meds contribute to the weight issue. The disease makes it difficult for me to quit smoking. I realized I sit here in judgement of him, but I make excuses for myself. And I think a lot of us do that.
I have excellent health insurance benefits. But I know for a fact that if my costs were to increase based on my lifestyle choices, it would be incentive for me to change the things that that impact my health.
I am going to be 42 in July. My dad quit smoking when he was 43. And is a very healthy man at 69 now. I have had it in my head that 43 is a magic age if I want to live to be old and healthy just like my dad. But after seeing what happened to my ex at 40 years old, I feel like the time is now. Right now, I am trying to lose weight. I had to pick and focus on one thing at a time. I am working on getting 25 pounds off. I am trying to cook healthier meals. Investing more time in my kitchen right now. The weather is changing and it gives me incentive to spend time outdoors and exercising. I have thought about taking up running. I am going to start by walking and probably do a couch to 5K plan. I have the desire to change myself. And I am going to try my hardest. Quitting smoking is a battle I have wrought with myself for almost 20 years now. I don't want to be penalized because of my shortcomings. I don't want others to be penalized either. But I do have to wonder if I was forced to pay more for my healthcare, if that would be incentive to change.
This is an interesting discussion. I can see every side of this issue.
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Post by femalebusiness on May 4, 2017 18:06:02 GMT
I also look at those people who are eating right, keeping their weight in line, not smoking and exercising regularly and wonder how many of them can't control their credit card spending, can't hold down a job and are raising loser kids, all of which is preventable if they had a little more self discipline. Those short comings affect all of society just like an unhealthy lifestyle does. It is easy to point fingers.
Humans are, well, human and we all have areas in which we fall short. To withhold healthcare or make it unaffordable as a punishment is just evil.
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zella
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,884
Jul 7, 2014 19:36:30 GMT
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Post by zella on May 4, 2017 18:07:54 GMT
Thank you, huskergal. Many days it's pretty overwhelming.
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,029
Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
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Post by huskergal on May 4, 2017 18:23:47 GMT
I am so sorry you are dealing with all of this. I agree 100% about the holier than thou. So do I, and my original post is anything but that. From a personal standpoint, and dealing with what we are with our son (who is getting his treatment in your great state of Nebraska) I identify with zella 100%. I mentioned in my very first paragraph that I wasn't talking about those situations. One of my students worked with a school nurse a couple semesters ago and they had seen a dramatic increase in childhood obesity in their elementary school. They track weights annually, and were involved in a study at the university where I work. The grant included money available for various interventions - gym memberships, bicycles for the children, "nutrition on a budget" sessions for anyone interested, etc. There were many helpful tools for people who were concerned about the increase in weight of their children. Some, however, were just angry that the school was "interfering." I get that, too -- but obviously there was a problem. That is the challenge of public health. I guess it's a bigger societal issue, if you look at where we assign responsibility. Schools are now responsible for academic achievement of students even though students may come hungry, tired, and/or from really challenging home situations. Hospitals are paid less by Medicare if patients don't meet certain guidelines or goals, as if the patient has no responsibility, only the hospital staff. It is a societal shift in who we believe is responsible for all aspects of our lives. Without looking at any individual's personal situation, read this quote: “Among U.S. adults, more than 90 percent of type 2 diabetes, 80 percent of CAD, 70 percent of stroke, and 70 percent of colon cancer are potentially preventable by a combination of nonsmoking, avoidance of overweight, moderate physical activity, healthy diet, and moderate alcohol consumption” (Willett 2002). Two things strike me (1) Those are big percentages of theoretically preventable diseases - shouldn't we do what we can, as individuals and as a society, to lower those rates (2) The interventions they list as how to prevent these are FREE except for diet - and in fact they SAVE money (avoiding tobacco and alcohol). It's not black and white, as there is not always cause and effect, but those statistics are pretty convincing in pushing us to look at how we reach individuals to improve their own personal situations. Looking at the health of Americans as a whole, we have some serious thinking to do about how to improve our health - which will improve our quality of life, and to get costs under control. One will accomplish the other. I absolutely agree we should work as a society to help people get healthier. That would help health costs down. However, shaming and blaming is not the way to go.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on May 4, 2017 18:39:49 GMT
The interventions they list as how to prevent these are FREE except for diet - depending on how you think about it, though, those interventions actually aren't free. What if the person drives 1 1/2 hours each way to work, because that's the best job they can get (for the wages, insurance, whatever). I know, you'll say they should just move closer to their work-- let's say they don't have the money or means to move closer to their job-- their spouse works 40 miles away the other direction, so they live in the middle. Anyway- After that person gets home at night, they want to sit on the couch and relax... which they can't do until after they help take care of the kids, the dog, help with the kids' homework, whatever-- they don't want to think about exercising; they're exhausted already. What would you have that person give up in their life so that they can go for that walk? it's all trade-offs, and for some people, their own self-care can suffer in all manner of ways, because they're taking care of the other people in their lives first. Telling someone 'just go for a walk' isn't the answer-- it's an EASY answer, but none of it is as simple as you make it sound. ETA: to be clear, that quote was from bbchangeup , NOT from huskergal ; I don't know why the board doesn't quote correctly sometimes!
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Post by not2peased on May 4, 2017 18:41:04 GMT
So do I, and my original post is anything but that. From a personal standpoint, and dealing with what we are with our son (who is getting his treatment in your great state of Nebraska) I identify with zella 100%. I mentioned in my very first paragraph that I wasn't talking about those situations. One of my students worked with a school nurse a couple semesters ago and they had seen a dramatic increase in childhood obesity in their elementary school. They track weights annually, and were involved in a study at the university where I work. The grant included money available for various interventions - gym memberships, bicycles for the children, "nutrition on a budget" sessions for anyone interested, etc. There were many helpful tools for people who were concerned about the increase in weight of their children. Some, however, were just angry that the school was "interfering." I get that, too -- but obviously there was a problem. That is the challenge of public health. I guess it's a bigger societal issue, if you look at where we assign responsibility. Schools are now responsible for academic achievement of students even though students may come hungry, tired, and/or from really challenging home situations. Hospitals are paid less by Medicare if patients don't meet certain guidelines or goals, as if the patient has no responsibility, only the hospital staff. It is a societal shift in who we believe is responsible for all aspects of our lives. Without looking at any individual's personal situation, read this quote: “Among U.S. adults, more than 90 percent of type 2 diabetes, 80 percent of CAD, 70 percent of stroke, and 70 percent of colon cancer are potentially preventable by a combination of nonsmoking, avoidance of overweight, moderate physical activity, healthy diet, and moderate alcohol consumption” (Willett 2002). Two things strike me (1) Those are big percentages of theoretically preventable diseases - shouldn't we do what we can, as individuals and as a society, to lower those rates (2) The interventions they list as how to prevent these are FREE except for diet - and in fact they SAVE money (avoiding tobacco and alcohol). It's not black and white, as there is not always cause and effect, but those statistics are pretty convincing in pushing us to look at how we reach individuals to improve their own personal situations. Looking at the health of Americans as a whole, we have some serious thinking to do about how to improve our health - which will improve our quality of life, and to get costs under control. One will accomplish the other. I absolutely agree we should work as a society to help people get healthier. That would help health costs down. However, shaming and blaming is not the way to go. shaming and blaming happens pretty often with poor people. unhealthy lifestyles, especially those that cause obesity tend to be off limits, it's an interesting double standard, IMO
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Post by misadventurous on May 4, 2017 19:15:36 GMT
So do I, and my original post is anything but that. From a personal standpoint, and dealing with what we are with our son (who is getting his treatment in your great state of Nebraska) I identify with zella 100%. I mentioned in my very first paragraph that I wasn't talking about those situations. One of my students worked with a school nurse a couple semesters ago and they had seen a dramatic increase in childhood obesity in their elementary school. They track weights annually, and were involved in a study at the university where I work. The grant included money available for various interventions - gym memberships, bicycles for the children, "nutrition on a budget" sessions for anyone interested, etc. There were many helpful tools for people who were concerned about the increase in weight of their children. Some, however, were just angry that the school was "interfering." I get that, too -- but obviously there was a problem. That is the challenge of public health. I guess it's a bigger societal issue, if you look at where we assign responsibility. Schools are now responsible for academic achievement of students even though students may come hungry, tired, and/or from really challenging home situations. Hospitals are paid less by Medicare if patients don't meet certain guidelines or goals, as if the patient has no responsibility, only the hospital staff. It is a societal shift in who we believe is responsible for all aspects of our lives. Without looking at any individual's personal situation, read this quote: “Among U.S. adults, more than 90 percent of type 2 diabetes, 80 percent of CAD, 70 percent of stroke, and 70 percent of colon cancer are potentially preventable by a combination of nonsmoking, avoidance of overweight, moderate physical activity, healthy diet, and moderate alcohol consumption” (Willett 2002). Two things strike me (1) Those are big percentages of theoretically preventable diseases - shouldn't we do what we can, as individuals and as a society, to lower those rates (2) The interventions they list as how to prevent these are FREE except for diet - and in fact they SAVE money (avoiding tobacco and alcohol). It's not black and white, as there is not always cause and effect, but those statistics are pretty convincing in pushing us to look at how we reach individuals to improve their own personal situations. Looking at the health of Americans as a whole, we have some serious thinking to do about how to improve our health - which will improve our quality of life, and to get costs under control. One will accomplish the other. I absolutely agree we should work as a society to help people get healthier. That would help health costs down. However, shaming and blaming is not the way to go. How did the OP in any way shame or blame anyone? I feel like "shaming and blaming" has become one of those stock phrases that is used to effectively stop the conversation. The question here was whether or not people feel like individuals have some personal responsibility to society to do everything they can to keep their own health costs down so that costs go down for everyone. The question was not how can you possibly expect Suzy, who lives on an Arctic ice floe with no room for a treadmill and has to wait for the current to take her 30 nautical miles to the nearest grocery, which only carries Twinkies and expensive organic apples harvested from the actual garden of Eden, to change her lifestyle. Sure, for the average person there might a lot of reasons why they might not be caring for themselves in the best way possible, but do they have a responsibility to society to try? I think they (we) do, though it may be an uncomfortable thought.
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Post by elaine on May 4, 2017 19:16:55 GMT
I absolutely agree we should work as a society to help people get healthier. That would help health costs down. However, shaming and blaming is not the way to go. shaming and blaming happens pretty often with poor people. unhealthy lifestyles, especially those that cause obesity tend to be off limits, it's an interesting double standard, IMO Except that in the USA, poverty and obesity are positively correlated. So, if you are shaming and blaming the poor, you are also shaming and blaming lifestyles that cause obesity. link
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Post by friendly on May 4, 2017 19:19:12 GMT
That really is a difficult situation since I agree people are responsible for their health but let's face it there are many factors in play here. It is expensive to eat healthy so is the government going to help subsidize the difference between say mac and cheese and fresh fruit? If you are living pay check to pay check and do not have insurance most people are not able to afford well care/ preventative visits. Which in the long run cost more since the problems become more serious before they see a doctor. Some of the factors such as smoking and drinking you could argue are a choice and they should be responsible for those problems. If that is the case in if you do not exercise should you also be held accountable? I am not trying to be difficult like I said I do agree with you to a point but it's complicated. People are NOT always responsible for their health. That is a ridiculous and demeaning thing to say to every sick person who struggles with physical ailments and mental disorders.
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bbchangeup
Shy Member
Posts: 38
Jun 25, 2016 18:46:59 GMT
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Post by bbchangeup on May 4, 2017 19:26:10 GMT
I absolutely agree we should work as a society to help people get healthier. That would help health costs down. However, shaming and blaming is not the way to go. I agree. I was careful in my wording not to blame or shame anyone. If that isn't clear, please let me clarify here. I am not blaming or shaming anyone. I have my shortcomings, just like everyone else. The whole point of my original post was to ask ---- do we have a responsibility for our own health. I appreciate the thoughtful opinions people are offering. Thank you.
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