MizIndependent
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Quit your bullpoop.
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Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
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Post by MizIndependent on May 4, 2017 16:03:57 GMT
See...I'd be out for blood, an apology wouldn't be good enough. I'd want full a refund, reimbursement for hotel/food/drinks (cause this b.s. would certainly cause me to drink) AND full compensation for getting bumped in cash. That is the least this family is owed. I'm pissed off just reading about this...AND I'm flying next week! I think I'm going to have to print off a "flyer's rights" guide so I have on hand what I'm entitled to by law in case I get bumped, which could be likely since I'm a cheap ticket flying alone. ETA: Saw that there is more to the story.
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Post by leftturnonly on May 4, 2017 16:07:39 GMT
There's no way it worked that way. You have to show your ID at check in time and it has to match the ticket and you have to show ID at TSA checkpoints and it has to match the ticket. The family didn't try to fly the toddler on the 18 year olds ticket. It would not have worked because the ID of the toddler wouldn't match the ticket. They tried to set the toddler in a seat they felt was theirs even though it wasn't anymore. Delta didn't have a checked in guest for that seat because the son flew a different flight home. IT was a free seat and booked to someone else. That's why I added later posts. If they didn't check in at the gate with 3 tickets and been allowed to board as such, then it comes down to the family trying to use 3 seats when they had tickets for 2. I've left out the transfer of the ticket from one person to another, because if the airline allowed them to board with that ticket then any transferal question was answered by the airline at that time. I wonder how much of the family's reluctance had to do with what they were going to do with the car seat. I don't think those things will fit in the overhead. The airline would probably just do a quick stow underneath with the other luggage. --- Having flown alone with 2 toddlers myself, these are the kinds of things that run through my head. It would have been a concern of mine, so it may have been a concern of these parents as well. They weren't exactly given a lot of time to think it over and sort their thoughts out. They may have been more accepting of the loss of the seat if they had.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 16:11:35 GMT
I know it's all well and good to bash airlines right now, but I think this one is on the family. I'll even go with the assumption that they bought a whole new seat for their other child. You can't then use the other ticket for your infant - tickets are not transferable. Are we supposed to completely ignore the actual legal agreements we make when we purchase a ticket and just assume we can do any damn thing we want because airlines are in the midst of a pr nightmare? You can't buckle your infant into a seat you did not purchase for them and the refuse to give up the seat - well you can, but you're not going to get any sympathy from me when they boot your ass off the flight.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 16:14:29 GMT
There's no way it worked that way. You have to show your ID at check in time and it has to match the ticket and you have to show ID at TSA checkpoints and it has to match the ticket. The family didn't try to fly the toddler on the 18 year olds ticket. It would not have worked because the ID of the toddler wouldn't match the ticket. They tried to set the toddler in a seat they felt was theirs even though it wasn't anymore. Delta didn't have a checked in guest for that seat because the son flew a different flight home. IT was a free seat and booked to someone else. That's why I added later posts. If they didn't check in at the gate with 3 tickets and been allowed to board as such, then it comes down to the family trying to use 3 seats when they had tickets for 2. I've left out the transfer of the ticket from one person to another, because if the airline allowed them to board with that ticket then any transferal question was answered by the airline at that time. I wonder how much of the family's reluctance had to do with what they were going to do with the car seat. I don't think those things will fit in the overhead. The airline would probably just do a quick stow underneath with the other luggage. --- Having flown alone with 2 toddlers myself, these are the kinds of things that run through my head. It would have been a concern of mine, so it may have been a concern of these parents as well. They weren't exactly given a lot of time to think it over and sort their thoughts out. They may have been more accepting of the loss of the seat if they had. There's no way they could have boarded with 3 tickets - the other individual wasn't there to show his ID (and as an 18 year old he would have been expected to show ID). And let's assume for a second that they pulled a fast one on TSA and convinced them that the toddler was the 18 year old - it never would have shown up as an available seat in the system and they wouldn't have gotten on the plane and told them to move their kid.
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quiltz
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Jun 29, 2014 16:13:28 GMT
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Post by quiltz on May 4, 2017 16:15:46 GMT
From KABC TV:
Schear tells one airline representative that if the child sat in one of their laps, he wouldn’t be able to sleep on the red-eye flight back to Los Angeles. The tot also had his own seat, on a Delta flight, on the way to Hawaii.
Earlier on in the video, officials told the family they had to surrender the seat because the child occupying the seat’s name wasn’t on the ticket.
Schear explained to KABC that he’d sent his 18-year-old son home on an earlier flight so the 2-year-old could have the seat.
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Post by leftturnonly on May 4, 2017 16:17:58 GMT
There's no way they could have boarded with 3 tickets - the other individual wasn't there to show his ID I realize that is the extreme case. Things that aren't supposed to happen happen all the time. I included it as the "what if" scenerio that places the blame on the airlines. If that's not what happened, then the family didn't have a hold on the other seat. ![](https://media.fotki.com/2v2JGmVoCxA5eGL.gif)
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MizIndependent
Drama Llama
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Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
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Post by MizIndependent on May 4, 2017 16:24:54 GMT
If they didn't check in at the gate with 3 tickets and been allowed to board as such, then it comes down to the family trying to use 3 seats when they had tickets for 2. Well, that does change things. If the family is scammin', then yeah, they did deserve to be kicked off.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 16:25:24 GMT
There's no way they could have boarded with 3 tickets - the other individual wasn't there to show his ID I realize that is the extreme case. Things that aren't supposed to happen happen all the time. I included it as the "what if" scenerio that places the blame on the airlines. If that's not what happened, then the family didn't have a hold on the other seat. ![](https://media.fotki.com/2v2JGmVoCxA5eGL.gif) But you ignored my second point.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 16:28:57 GMT
For those who haven't traveled with babies, even if you're a lap baby, you have a ticket and boarding pass which has to be shown to TSA. There's no way the family wasn't holding 2 boarding passes for their children that said INF for the seat assignment - otherwise the seat wouldn't have shown up as available in the system.
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Post by deekaye on May 4, 2017 16:32:11 GMT
I fly a lot for both business and pleasure. I'm waiting for the marketing department of a major airline to realize that if they advertised that they don't overbook, they would have SCADS of us wanting to fly with them.
I flew Delta last week and they were offering $800 to four passengers because they were overbooked. I was flying on the government's dime (not my own) and we aren't allowed to bump, otherwise I would have.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 16:33:19 GMT
I fly a lot for both business and pleasure. I'm waiting for the marketing department of a major airline to realize that if they advertised that they don't overbook, they would have SCADS of us wanting to fly with them. I flew Delta last week and they were offering $800 to four passengers because they were overbooked. I was flying on the government's dime (not my own) and we aren't allowed to bump, otherwise I would have. Jet blue doesn't overbook and advertises that fact.
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Post by leftturnonly on May 4, 2017 16:35:14 GMT
I realize that is the extreme case. Things that aren't supposed to happen happen all the time. I included it as the "what if" scenerio that places the blame on the airlines. If that's not what happened, then the family didn't have a hold on the other seat. ![](https://media.fotki.com/2v2JGmVoCxA5eGL.gif) But you ignored my second point. I wasn't assuming that's why that seat was chosen as one that could be booted. As far as I know, that seat was picked at random to be given to someone else. All I can say is that flying with 2 infants/toddlers was not the easiest thing I've ever done in my life! This family may have been the most distracted people on the entire plane, especially if all they could think about was trying to hold the car-seat kid for the entire trip and keep them entertained, quiet and out of everybody else's hair.
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christinec68
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Jun 26, 2014 18:02:19 GMT
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Post by christinec68 on May 4, 2017 16:38:33 GMT
That's why I added later posts. If they didn't check in at the gate with 3 tickets and been allowed to board as such, then it comes down to the family trying to use 3 seats when they had tickets for 2. I've left out the transfer of the ticket from one person to another, because if the airline allowed them to board with that ticket then any transferal question was answered by the airline at that time. I wonder how much of the family's reluctance had to do with what they were going to do with the car seat. I don't think those things will fit in the overhead. The airline would probably just do a quick stow underneath with the other luggage. --- Having flown alone with 2 toddlers myself, these are the kinds of things that run through my head. It would have been a concern of mine, so it may have been a concern of these parents as well. They weren't exactly given a lot of time to think it over and sort their thoughts out. They may have been more accepting of the loss of the seat if they had. There's no way they could have boarded with 3 tickets - the other individual wasn't there to show his ID (and as an 18 year old he would have been expected to show ID). And let's assume for a second that they pulled a fast one on TSA and convinced them that the toddler was the 18 year old - it never would have shown up as an available seat in the system and they wouldn't have gotten on the plane and told them to move their kid. They could have checked in online and printed their own boarding passes. They would have to show id to check bags but they must have only presented their own tickets - not everyone travelling together arrives at the airport at the same time. TSA has no idea how many people are in each travelling party. After that, you ordinarily don't need to present ID again when it's time to board the plane. If they printed out his boarding pass, they could quite easily get on the plane with it. I don't think the scanner reveals anything other than the passenger name and seat assignment. If they did this, then I can see where it violates some FAA law about switching out passengers. Threatening to throw the whole family in jail was a reach. But I am not sure how the flight attendants put two and two together. The baby and toddler were listed as lap children and now one is in a seat which didn't match the airline's manifest? I can't tell if they used the son's boarding pass or if they just assumed the seat would be theirs since they paid for three tickets (four if the new ticket for the son's earlier flight). I am confused about the car seat comment in that they are not permitted...are there car seats that are not compliant with FAA regulations?
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Post by bc2ca on May 4, 2017 16:39:24 GMT
From what I've read, the family ended up buying 4 tickets. The 3 original tickets and then a 4th ticket for the 18 year old to take the earlier flight. They assumed they still "owned" the son's original seat/ticket and could use it for the 2 year old. Because the 18 year old never checked in for the flight, the seat is showing as available in the system. I'm assuming the family checked in with the two boarding passes and two lap babies, settled into their seats and then was approached when the FA/GA were reconciling the passenger count/seats available, etc. (and, yes, I know assuming anything means I could be wrong ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/OrTI4SBmZ2ZYSFv6ag4f.jpg) ). The family assumed they could transfer the 18 year old's ticket to the 2 year old which is their mistake. I have to point out a 2 year old should have had their own seat/ticket anyway. You have to be "under 2" to travel as a lap baby.
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peasquared
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Jul 6, 2014 23:59:59 GMT
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Post by peasquared on May 4, 2017 16:39:44 GMT
I don't know what happened concerning the ticket. What I do know is, Delta will not allow carseats even when the toddler has paid for the seat. I think that is ridiculous. They think their little seatbelt is more secure than a harness that carseat has? My DGD was sliding all over the seat during take off and landing.
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Post by jumperhop on May 4, 2017 16:42:24 GMT
I fly a lot for both business and pleasure. I'm waiting for the marketing department of a major airline to realize that if they advertised that they don't overbook, they would have SCADS of us wanting to fly with them. I flew Delta last week and they were offering $800 to four passengers because they were overbooked. I was flying on the government's dime (not my own) and we aren't allowed to bump, otherwise I would have. JetBlue doesn't over book. And they give you a whole can of Coke.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 16:44:06 GMT
But you ignored my second point. I wasn't assuming that's why that seat was chosen as one that could be booted. As far as I know, that seat was picked at random to be given to someone else. All I can say is that flying with 2 infants/toddlers was not the easiest thing I've ever done in my life! This family may have been the most distracted people on the entire plane, especially if all they could think about was trying to hold the car-seat kid for the entire trip and keep them entertained, quiet and out of everybody else's hair. This was NOT an overbooked situation. They were not bumped from the seat from being overbooked. If you watch the video, the father is even saying he purchased the ticket for the older son - the airline saw the seat in their system as a no show. I highly recommend parents buy a seat for their infants/toddlers - it's much, much easier. I flew with my 2 many times when they were young - even solo (they're less than 2 years apart in age). An infant and toddler from Hawaii at night is easy - they'll most likely sleep.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 16:45:53 GMT
There's no way they could have boarded with 3 tickets - the other individual wasn't there to show his ID (and as an 18 year old he would have been expected to show ID). And let's assume for a second that they pulled a fast one on TSA and convinced them that the toddler was the 18 year old - it never would have shown up as an available seat in the system and they wouldn't have gotten on the plane and told them to move their kid. They could have checked in online and printed their own boarding passes. They would have to show id to check bags but they must have only presented their own tickets - not everyone travelling together arrives at the airport at the same time. TSA has no idea how many people are in each travelling party. After that, you ordinarily don't need to present ID again when it's time to board the plane. If they printed out his boarding pass, they could quite easily get on the plane with it. I don't think the scanner reveals anything other than the passenger name and seat assignment. If they did this, then I can see where it violates some FAA law about switching out passengers. Threatening to throw the whole family in jail was a reach. But I am not sure how the flight attendants put two and two together. The baby and toddler were listed as lap children and now one is in a seat which didn't match the airline's manifest? I can't tell if they used the son's boarding pass or if they just assumed the seat would be theirs since they paid for three tickets (four if the new ticket for the son's earlier flight). I am confused about the car seat comment in that they are not permitted...are there car seats that are not compliant with FAA regulations? But how would they get through TSA without showing the older son's ID? There are car seats that are not compliant with FAA regulations. There's a sticker on the seat.
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Post by bc2ca on May 4, 2017 16:47:38 GMT
For those who haven't traveled with babies, even if you're a lap baby, you have a ticket and boarding pass which has to be shown to TSA. There's no way the family wasn't holding 2 boarding passes for their children that said INF for the seat assignment - otherwise the seat wouldn't have shown up as available in the system. I was wondering about this. It's been 16 years since I traveled with an infant and, IIRC, he was listed on my boarding pass. I'm not surprised that they would need their own boarding pass these days. Either way, they do have to be on the manifest, so they do have to be identified and accounted for somehow. SaveSave
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tracylynn
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 26, 2014 22:49:09 GMT
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Post by tracylynn on May 4, 2017 16:48:31 GMT
See...I'd be out for blood, an apology wouldn't be good enough. I'd want full a refund, reimbursement for hotel/food/drinks (cause this b.s. would certainly cause me to drink) AND full compensation for getting bumped in cash. That is the least this family is owed. I'm pissed off just reading about this...AND I'm flying next week! I think I'm going to have to print off a "flyer's rights" guide so I have on hand what I'm entitled to by law in case I get bumped, which could be likely since I'm a cheap ticket flying alone. There is more to this story. This is what is wrong with the media and how they report these stories. They did NOT get deboarded and not rebooked on another flight. Now, if they didn't care for that flight and chose to rebook on their own dime, that's their call. But Delta would have booked them on another flight at no cost. There is more to this story.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 16:49:33 GMT
I don't know what happened concerning the ticket. What I do know is, Delta will not allow carseats even when the toddler has paid for the seat. I think that is ridiculous. They think their little seatbelt is more secure than a harness that carseat has? My DGD was sliding all over the seat during take off and landing. Seriously? I've never lived near a Delta hub so fly them pretty rarely. United, Southwest, Frontier and American all allow carseats - assuming it shows the FAA compliant sticker. I should caveat that it's now been over 10 years (how in the world is that possible)! so one of the above could have changed their policies. Even internationally - Lufthansa and Virgin allow carseats - it's hard to believe Delta wouldn't.
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tracylynn
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 26, 2014 22:49:09 GMT
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Post by tracylynn on May 4, 2017 16:51:12 GMT
From KABC TV: Schear tells one airline representative that if the child sat in one of their laps, he wouldn’t be able to sleep on the red-eye flight back to Los Angeles. The tot also had his own seat, on a Delta flight, on the way to Hawaii. Earlier on in the video, officials told the family they had to surrender the seat because the child occupying the seat’s name wasn’t on the ticket. Schear explained to KABC that he’d sent his 18-year-old son home on an earlier flight so the 2-year-old could have the seat. Not how it works. The father is wrong on this one. Not the airline.
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christinec68
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Jun 26, 2014 18:02:19 GMT
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Post by christinec68 on May 4, 2017 16:51:46 GMT
They could have checked in online and printed their own boarding passes. They would have to show id to check bags but they must have only presented their own tickets - not everyone travelling together arrives at the airport at the same time. TSA has no idea how many people are in each travelling party. After that, you ordinarily don't need to present ID again when it's time to board the plane. If they printed out his boarding pass, they could quite easily get on the plane with it. I don't think the scanner reveals anything other than the passenger name and seat assignment. If they did this, then I can see where it violates some FAA law about switching out passengers. Threatening to throw the whole family in jail was a reach. But I am not sure how the flight attendants put two and two together. The baby and toddler were listed as lap children and now one is in a seat which didn't match the airline's manifest? I can't tell if they used the son's boarding pass or if they just assumed the seat would be theirs since they paid for three tickets (four if the new ticket for the son's earlier flight). I am confused about the car seat comment in that they are not permitted...are there car seats that are not compliant with FAA regulations? But how would they get through TSA without showing the older son's ID? There are car seats that are not compliant with FAA regulations. There's a sticker on the seat. How would TSA know the older son is even supposed to be there? The family members flying presented their boarding passes and IDs, not the older son's pass. As far as I know, the TSA don't keep track of who has reservations and are concerned with people who do not show up. Thanks for the car seat info - I don't have kids and wasn't sure if that could be the case.
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tracylynn
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 26, 2014 22:49:09 GMT
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Post by tracylynn on May 4, 2017 16:53:35 GMT
I fly a lot for both business and pleasure. I'm waiting for the marketing department of a major airline to realize that if they advertised that they don't overbook, they would have SCADS of us wanting to fly with them. I flew Delta last week and they were offering $800 to four passengers because they were overbooked. I was flying on the government's dime (not my own) and we aren't allowed to bump, otherwise I would have. I fly a lot for business now. We don't have the restriction, but I don't take bumps because I want to get home. That said, after all the news the last few weeks and learning that the airline is required to pay those out in CASH if you ask (instead of vouchers) it makes the thought a lot more appealing.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 16:59:27 GMT
But how would they get through TSA without showing the older son's ID? There are car seats that are not compliant with FAA regulations. There's a sticker on the seat. How would TSA know the older son is even supposed to be there? The family members flying presented their boarding passes and IDs, not the older son's pass. As far as I know, the TSA don't keep track of who has reservations and are concerned with people who do not show up. Thanks for the car seat info - I don't have kids and wasn't sure if that could be the case. TSA scans the boarding passes. I'm pretty sure that if you check in online, but never go through security it shows up as a no-show on the airlines computer. I can't see a way that the family could have successfully fooled the airline that the older child was on the plane, which they would have needed to do for the airline to not be reassigning that seat to a waitlisted passenger.
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tduby1
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Jun 27, 2014 18:32:45 GMT
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Post by tduby1 on May 4, 2017 16:59:37 GMT
While I agree what this family did was probably shifty according to United's policies, I think what we are finally seeing is a push back against unfair airline policies.
If an airline refuses to refund cancellations then the seat is should NOT be theirs to sell again- it should still belong to the flier, whether or not they are on the plane. They have already collected the money for that seat. Why should they be allowed to double dip? They do it because we allow it and no one pushes back against such policies. Airlines should only be allowed to sell seats once. That is it. No one else is allowed to sell a single item to multiple people, why is it acceptable for airlines to do so?
If they want to be able to resell the seat, then they need to be willing to refund the original buyer, once it is resold. That is how everything else operates.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 17:01:54 GMT
I fly a lot for both business and pleasure. I'm waiting for the marketing department of a major airline to realize that if they advertised that they don't overbook, they would have SCADS of us wanting to fly with them. I flew Delta last week and they were offering $800 to four passengers because they were overbooked. I was flying on the government's dime (not my own) and we aren't allowed to bump, otherwise I would have. I fly a lot for business now. We don't have the restriction, but I don't take bumps because I want to get home. That said, after all the news the last few weeks and learning that the airline is required to pay those out in CASH if you ask (instead of vouchers) it makes the thought a lot more appealing. Just know that the requirement for cash is ONLY if you're involuntarily bumped. The airline can ask for VOLUNTEERS to accept a voucher. MOST (not all) flights will find sufficient volunteers at a healthy voucher price point.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 17:02:43 GMT
While I agree what this family did was probably shifty according to United's policies, I think what we are finally seeing is a push back against unfair airline policies.
If an airline refuses to refund cancellations then the seat is should NOT be theirs to sell again- it should still belong to the flier, whether or not they are on the plane. They have already collected the money for that seat. Why should they be allowed to double dip? They do it because we allow it and no one pushes back against such policies. Airlines should only be allowed to sell seats once. That is it. No one else is allowed to sell a single item to multiple people, why is it acceptable for airlines to do so?
If they want to be able to resell the seat, then they need to be willing to refund the original buyer, once it is resold. That is how everything else operates.
Delta - fyi
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christinec68
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Post by christinec68 on May 4, 2017 17:06:04 GMT
How would TSA know the older son is even supposed to be there? The family members flying presented their boarding passes and IDs, not the older son's pass. As far as I know, the TSA don't keep track of who has reservations and are concerned with people who do not show up. Thanks for the car seat info - I don't have kids and wasn't sure if that could be the case. TSA scans the boarding passes. I'm pretty sure that if you check in online, but never go through security it shows up as a no-show on the airlines computer. I can't see a way that the family could have successfully fooled the airline that the older child was on the plane, which they would have needed to do for the airline to not be reassigning that seat to a waitlisted passenger. They weren't successful since they were removed from the plane. I didn't know the TSA keeps track of no shows for all the airlines. I thought it would come from passengers not checking in or not boarding/boarding on time. I was just speculating on how they got around the TSA without the son.
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happymomma
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Aug 6, 2014 23:57:56 GMT
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Post by happymomma on May 4, 2017 17:07:28 GMT
Schear explained to KABC that he’d sent his 18-year-old son home on an earlier flight so the 2-year-old could have the seat. That's the mistake right there, IMO. You can't just give your ticket to someone else.
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