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Post by bc2ca on Sept 4, 2017 6:17:51 GMT
Ending DACA does nothing to address the immigration issues in this country. For decades (generations of immigrants), we have needed undocumented immigrants as a source of cheap labor. The "problem" with undocumented immigrants hasn't been resolved or addressed because it hasn't been in the economic interests of this country to address it. That is the main reason it gets passed down from Administration to Administration.
And now we have a very complicated mess to unravel. Those eligible under DACA are just one small part of the mess. Parents whose children are all American citizens, married couples where one is undocumented, sibling groups where half are DACA eligible and half are American citizens are all part of the mess. There is no easy route to legal immigration for most of these people. They don't qualify under education or work categories and we are closing the door on family sponsored immigration. But our economy needs them.
As a legal immigrant to the US, I am extremely grateful that my family had the means to pay for our applications and fly across the continent with 30 days notice to appear for a hearing. I don't think it is humane or in the best interest of our country to pretend we don't need these undocumented workers in our economy and figure out a path to documented status and/or citizenship for them.
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oaksong
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Post by oaksong on Sept 4, 2017 6:57:05 GMT
I'm so sad for these kids that are facing a very different future from the one they were brought up to believe in. I can't imagine how devasting it would be to grow up in the US, and suddenly be deported to a country where you might not even know the language.
They are here because the US economy has thrived on the cheap, highly productive labor their parents have provided for generations. These are kids that we have educated and taken care of, a valuable resource that we cultivated to be productive US citizens, and we're shipping them off like they are criminals.
The world has gone mad indeed.
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inkedup
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Post by inkedup on Sept 4, 2017 7:06:30 GMT
What, what? You mean Americans aren't lining up to pick produce in sweltering heat for pennies? Maybe we can transfer some of those coal miners to these fields. Win/win for Trump supporters, right? Coal miners will work again, AND they'll put those nasty illegals out of work while they're at it. I don't have any opinion on the topic at hand, but as the wife of a coal miner I think this was a pretty shitty thing to say. Believe it or not, my husband has many specialized skills he uses at his job. Miners aren't just dumb fucks who aren't fit for any other work besides being a field worker. Not that there's anything wrong with making a living as a field hand at all. I just get aggravated when people think any Tom, Dick, or Harry can be a coal miner. That's simply not true. ETA: I know you're post was tongue-in-cheek. Jokes about "those damn coal miners" just don't set well with me as it's my reality. We're real people just like the illegal immigrants trying to provide for our families. Neither should be a political toy. Who said anything about coal miners being "dumb fucks?" (Though you are implying that about agricultural workers.) I honestly wasn't attempting to imply anything about the coal miners' educational level or job difficulty. My point was that Trump campaigned heavily on the jobs issue, and coal jobs in particular. His promises aren't panning out (even though claims they are). He also relied heavily on the idea that undocumented people are dangerous and that they're stealing jobs from Americans. Most of the coal workers who didn't have jobs when Obama was in office, won't have jobs in that industry with Trump. It's an ever shrinking industry. Some of the most vehement Trump supporters I know accuse undocumented workers of taking American jobs. The truth is that it's a shit job that only desperate people do. Most Americans wouldn't take these jobs. Most of us look down on the people who do these jobs - you certainly do by the tone of your response to me. Why aren't out of work Americans (like the out of work coal miners that Trump made such a big deal of) taking these jobs if they're so great? Anyway, I'm sorry you felt I took a dig at the intelligence of coal workers. I respect anyone who works hard. Coal mining is dangerous, physically and emotionally taxing, and I couldn't do it. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 10:01:08 GMT
No matter what decision Trump makes, the decision is going to be challenged. Like it or not, agree with it or not, the argument is that Obama overstepped his authority.
I am so frickin tired of Congress playing hot potato. NOTHING gets done. These big issues only get done by Executive Order. When a new party takes control, the previous EO's get reversed.
So now a lot of republicans are saying to let DACA stand. Okay...time to put up or shut up GOP. So many of these republicans were vocal about ending it, and now the time has come, they speak against it. Put it up for a vote, and let these politicians own their votes. But they don't want to.
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on Sept 4, 2017 10:58:02 GMT
I'm so sad for these kids that are facing a very different future from the one they were brought up to believe in. I can't imagine how devasting it would be to grow up in the US, and suddenly be deported to a country where you might not even know the language. They are here because the US economy has thrived on the cheap, highly productive labor their parents have provided for generations. These are kids that we have educated and taken care of, a valuable resource that we cultivated to be productive US citizens, and we're shipping them off like they are criminals. The world has gone mad indeed. ITA. Heartless and cruel is the only way to describe this. |
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Post by Merge on Sept 4, 2017 12:09:24 GMT
Then why defend it? If you defend him, as far as I'm concerned, he's your guy. Republicans in congress are falling in line with his bullshit and failing to call him out as they should, so self-identified Republicans are just as complicit. And don't try to tell me you're not defending this decision with your "it's all the parents' fault" bullshit. What possible good can come from this reversal? I think there's a way better answer to DACA than what is being presented most certainly, but I do want to go on record here, that I, as a Republican (albeit a part of the seemingly unheard moderate ones), who didn't vote for this crazy man, can still still support isolated decisions under his administration without him becoming "my guy." Your opinion of course, but I find it pretty dismissive to those of us who, by the way, are a part of the "center" that have a pretty hefty impact on elections. If you, general you, are really in favor of summarily deporting young adults back to a country they don't remember or where they have no real ties - young adults who were brought here as children or teens and have done nothing wrong - then yes, he's "your guy." You can't agree with this decision and then pretend to be a moderate, because this decision is, at its core, a racist one. It has nothing to do with making our country safer. If actual moderates don't want to be tarred with the same brush as Trump's hard-right supporters, they need to be joining us in vocally denouncing these decisions. Way too many are silent. Instead of being afraid of offending those on the right, we all need to be speaking clearly and bluntly about how harmful Trump's decisions are. Words matter and silence matters, too. |
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Post by Merge on Sept 4, 2017 12:12:25 GMT
I guess Trump doesn't think Alfonso Guillen, a DACA recipient who died recently trying to save people after Hurricane Harvey, is worthy of being allowed to stay. Article |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Sept 4, 2017 12:24:18 GMT
I just want to scream "This isn't even your fucking country"!!!! To create borders and lock everyone out meanwhile we want to be free to explore the world and expect everyone to welcome us enthusiastically. We want to have hands in everyone's natural resources, enjoy the perks of their country but deny them the right to forge a new life unless of course it benefits us.
There is absolutely a right and wrong to this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 12:38:21 GMT
I think there's a way better answer to DACA than what is being presented most certainly, but I do want to go on record here, that I, as a Republican (albeit a part of the seemingly unheard moderate ones), who didn't vote for this crazy man, can still still support isolated decisions under his administration without him becoming "my guy." Your opinion of course, but I find it pretty dismissive to those of us who, by the way, are a part of the "center" that have a pretty hefty impact on elections. If you, general you, are really in favor of summarily deporting young adults back to a country they don't remember or where they have no real ties - young adults who were brought here as children or teens and have done nothing wrong - then yes, he's "your guy." You can't agree with this decision and then pretend to be a moderate, because this decision is, at its core, a racist one. It has nothing to do with making our country safer. If actual moderates don't want to be tarred with the same brush as Trump's hard-right supporters, they need to be joining us in vocally denouncing these decisions. Way too many are silent. Instead of being afraid of offending those on the right, we all need to be speaking clearly and bluntly about how harmful Trump's decisions are. Words matter and silence matters, too. So those that believe in upholding the laws are racist? I personally don't want him to end DACA. I don't want the kids to be punished because of their parents' decisions. However, should we selectively choose which laws to follow? I DO wish Obama had taken the right steps and had it go before Congress. But he didn't, and why is that again? |
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casii
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Post by casii on Sept 4, 2017 12:51:43 GMT
I'll be honest. I can't be articulate or civil about this. This is racist hate.
I know young people who are waking up to realize that their American dream means nothing to Trump or his support base. One family in particular I know, is very active in our church, have jobs, pay taxes, work hard in school and the young people only know English. They also have no close family members to 'return' to in another country. The level of devastation they are feeling cannot be overstated.
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Post by Merge on Sept 4, 2017 12:54:54 GMT
If you, general you, are really in favor of summarily deporting young adults back to a country they don't remember or where they have no real ties - young adults who were brought here as children or teens and have done nothing wrong - then yes, he's "your guy." You can't agree with this decision and then pretend to be a moderate, because this decision is, at its core, a racist one. It has nothing to do with making our country safer. If actual moderates don't want to be tarred with the same brush as Trump's hard-right supporters, they need to be joining us in vocally denouncing these decisions. Way too many are silent. Instead of being afraid of offending those on the right, we all need to be speaking clearly and bluntly about how harmful Trump's decisions are. Words matter and silence matters, too. So those that believe in upholding the laws are racist? I personally don't want him to end DACA. I don't want the kids to be punished because of their parents' decisions. However, should we selectively choose which laws to follow? I DO wish Obama had taken the right steps and had it go before Congress. But he didn't, and why is that again? 1. We selectively follow and enforce laws in this country all the time. Those who believe in upholding unfair immigration policy because it's the law, but (for example) have no problem carrying around an unregistered handgun "because Constitutional carry" are most definitely racist. 2. DACA is the law of the land right now, so upholding it is NOT choosing not to follow the law. 3. The "but Obama" argument is irrelevant. You and I both know this problem predates his administration by decades. And no one in the Trump administration, or anyone who voted for him or supports him, has any room to talk about executive overreach. Obama signed fewer executive orders per year in office than any president since Grover Cleveland. Trump is currently on pace to double Obama's yearly rate in his first year in office. You want civil discourse? Stop supporting the uncivil things this administration is doing and then using "but Obama" as an excuse. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 12:55:41 GMT
From the article linked in OP:
"President Trump has made the decision to end the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program with a six-month delay, Politico reported on Sunday."
and then this:
"However, the officials also cautioned Politico that "nothing is set in stone until an official announcement has been made."
So basically we don't know anymore now than we did 2, 3, 4 days ago. They (the news outlets) sure love to stir it up, don't they?
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Post by epeanymous on Sept 4, 2017 13:09:08 GMT
To remind everyone, these are young people who came out of the shadows, offered their sensitive information that renders them more easily deportable to the government in exchange for the ability to get educated and work in the country where they live, who, despite being exactly what we want here -- people who are working and going to school, building lives in the country they love -- are now more at risk than they were before.
Our university's student body president last year was a DACA student. He ended up resigning because he felt he couldn't complete the job while dealing with the new uncertainty in his status and the statuses of people he loved. Decisions like this hurt real people and real communities.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 13:18:15 GMT
So those that believe in upholding the laws are racist? I personally don't want him to end DACA. I don't want the kids to be punished because of their parents' decisions. However, should we selectively choose which laws to follow? I DO wish Obama had taken the right steps and had it go before Congress. But he didn't, and why is that again? 1. We selectively follow and enforce laws in this country all the time. 2. DACA is the law of the land right now, so upholding it is not choosing not to follow the law. 3. The "but Obama" argument is irrelevant. You and I both know this problem predates his administration by decades. And no one in the Trump administration, or anyone who voted for him or supports him, has any room to talk about executive overreach. Obama signed fewer executive orders per year in office than any president since Grover Cleveland. Trump is currently on pace to double Obama's yearly rate in his first year in office. You want civil discourse? Stop supporting the uncivil things this administration is doing and then using "but Obama" as an excuse. I don't know how you can say Obama is irrelevant since he put the DACA policy/program into motion in the first place. You say DACA is the "law of the land," but is DACA truly law? Like I asked above, which branch makes laws? Maybe I need a follow-up government course, but doesn't the legislative branch make the laws, and then the executive/judicial branches interpret? Please explain if I'm wrong. Regarding EO's, no matter which president is signing them, if they aren't set in stone, and the next time there's a party change, they get undone. And FWIW, I'm none too thrilled with the EO's Trump's been churning out. |
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Post by Merge on Sept 4, 2017 13:27:59 GMT
1. We selectively follow and enforce laws in this country all the time. 2. DACA is the law of the land right now, so upholding it is not choosing not to follow the law. 3. The "but Obama" argument is irrelevant. You and I both know this problem predates his administration by decades. And no one in the Trump administration, or anyone who voted for him or supports him, has any room to talk about executive overreach. Obama signed fewer executive orders per year in office than any president since Grover Cleveland. Trump is currently on pace to double Obama's yearly rate in his first year in office. You want civil discourse? Stop supporting the uncivil things this administration is doing and then using "but Obama" as an excuse. I don't know how you can say Obama is irrelevant since he put the DACA policy/program into motion in the first place. You say DACA is the "law of the land," but is DACA truly law? Like I asked above, which branch makes laws? Maybe I need a follow-up government course, but doesn't the legislative branch make the laws, and then the executive/judicial branches interpret? Please explain if I'm wrong.
Somehow, to the Republicans, it's only overreach when a Democrat does it. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Sept 4, 2017 13:28:47 GMT
1. We selectively follow and enforce laws in this country all the time. 2. DACA is the law of the land right now, so upholding it is not choosing not to follow the law. 3. The "but Obama" argument is irrelevant. You and I both know this problem predates his administration by decades. And no one in the Trump administration, or anyone who voted for him or supports him, has any room to talk about executive overreach. Obama signed fewer executive orders per year in office than any president since Grover Cleveland. Trump is currently on pace to double Obama's yearly rate in his first year in office. You want civil discourse? Stop supporting the uncivil things this administration is doing and then using "but Obama" as an excuse. I don't know how you can say Obama is irrelevant since he put the DACA policy/program into motion in the first place. You say DACA is the "law of the land," but is DACA truly law? Like I asked above, which branch makes laws? Maybe I need a follow-up government course, but doesn't the legislative branch make the laws, and then the executive/judicial branches interpret? Please explain if I'm wrong. Regarding EO's, no matter which president is signing them, if they aren't set in stone, and the next time there's a party change, they get undone. And FWIW, I'm none too thrilled with the EO's Trump's been churning out. Is anyone noticing how there is defense for one policy all while simultaneously trying to distance ones self from 45. How can you be a Republican, disagree with 45, but stand in defense of the reversal of this EO? Honestly. And then storm away like burningfeather when someone shows you a mirror....how? Seriously? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 13:37:45 GMT
Merge Thanks for the link, but I think the rest of the explanation comes into play: "The ability to make such orders is also based on express or implied Acts of Congress that delegate to the President some degree of discretionary power (delegated legislation).[1] Like both legislative statutes and regulations promulgated by government agencies, executive orders are subject to judicial review and may be overturned if the orders lack support by statute or the Constitution.[2] Major policy initiatives require approval by the legislative branch, but executive orders have significant influence over the internal affairs of government, deciding how and to what degree legislation will be enforced, dealing with emergencies, waging wars, and in general fine-tuning policy choices in the implementation of broad statutes." And this is where the courts are going to come in. Like I said in a previous post, no matter which decision he makes, it's going to be challenged. There are I believe 10 states awaiting his decision, and if he keeps DACA in place, they're going to sue. If he ends DACA, states are going to sue.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Sept 4, 2017 13:41:31 GMT
I just want to scream "This isn't even your fucking country"!!!! To create borders and lock everyone out meanwhile we want to be free to explore the world and expect everyone to welcome us enthusiastically. We want to have hands in everyone's natural resources, enjoy the perks of their country but deny them the right to forge a new life unless of course it benefits us. There is absolutely a right and wrong to this. Yes!!!! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 13:42:58 GMT
I don't know how you can say Obama is irrelevant since he put the DACA policy/program into motion in the first place. You say DACA is the "law of the land," but is DACA truly law? Like I asked above, which branch makes laws? Maybe I need a follow-up government course, but doesn't the legislative branch make the laws, and then the executive/judicial branches interpret? Please explain if I'm wrong. Regarding EO's, no matter which president is signing them, if they aren't set in stone, and the next time there's a party change, they get undone. And FWIW, I'm none too thrilled with the EO's Trump's been churning out. Is anyone noticing how there is defense for one policy all while simultaneously trying to distance ones self from 45. How can you be a Republican, disagree with 45, but stand in defense of the reversal of this EO? Honestly. And then storm away like burningfeather when someone shows you a mirror....how? Seriously? First, I'm not a republican. Second, as far as "defending the reversal of this EO" if it truly is law, then it should stand. If it's not (which is where the threatened lawsuits come in), the courts will say so. Third, who stormed away? |
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Post by Merge on Sept 4, 2017 13:56:08 GMT
Merge Thanks for the link, but I think the rest of the explanation comes into play: "The ability to make such orders is also based on express or implied Acts of Congress that delegate to the President some degree of discretionary power (delegated legislation).[1] Like both legislative statutes and regulations promulgated by government agencies, executive orders are subject to judicial review and may be overturned if the orders lack support by statute or the Constitution.[2] Major policy initiatives require approval by the legislative branch, but executive orders have significant influence over the internal affairs of government, deciding how and to what degree legislation will be enforced, dealing with emergencies, waging wars, and in general fine-tuning policy choices in the implementation of broad statutes." And this is where the courts are going to come in. Like I said in a previous post, no matter which decision he makes, it's going to be challenged. There are I believe 10 states awaiting his decision, and if he keeps DACA in place, they're going to sue. If he ends DACA, states are going to sue. And none of that counters the basic fact that an executive order, allowed to stand, has the force of law. The courts will have to decide - but until then, it has the force of law. Plain and simple. Someone challenging a law for political reasons doesn't mean that (a) they will win or (b) that it's not a law in the mean time. Some states tried and failed to get an injunction to prevent the EO from being put into action, so for now, it's law. |
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Post by jenis40 on Sept 4, 2017 13:56:13 GMT
By all means let's deport this guy: www.buzzfeed.com/adolfoflores/daca-rescuer-hurricane-harvey?utm_term=.gtyENkonAp&bftwnews#.xivJng7eza"Houston-area paramedic Jesus Contreras worked six days straight after Hurricane Harvey hammered through southeast Texas, rescuing people from flood waters and taking some of them to local hospitals." I think that you can think that illegal immigration needs to end but have some compassion for these "kids". In my mind there's a few people to blame for this mess: the do-nothing Congress we've had for the last 10 years (and that includes Democrats who voted against the Dream Act), Trump and his "heart", and the Texas AG and the 9 other AG's who are joining him to sue if DACA isn't ended. I don't think that every Republican who holds a different viewpoint than I do is the devil but I do think that they need to speak out against this president when his actions are cruel and terrible. And I place the same stricture on the Democrats. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 13:58:37 GMT
Merge Like I said, thanks for the link.
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Post by Belia on Sept 4, 2017 14:02:03 GMT
From the article linked in OP: "President Trump has made the decision to end the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program with a six-month delay, Politico reported on Sunday." and then this: "However, the officials also cautioned Politico that "nothing is set in stone until an official announcement has been made." So basically we don't know anymore now than we did 2, 3, 4 days ago. They (the news outlets) sure love to stir it up, don't they? I don't think the uncertainty has anything to do with the news outlets "loving to stir it up." I think it's due to the fact that Mr. Trump has demonstrated repeatedly that he will go off-script, ignore his advisors' advice, change his mind at the last minute, and tell his own people one thing, then do another. This is not the big, bad, fakenews, media stirring the pot. This is Trump's own team acknowledging that even when they think they have come to a consensus internally, no one freaking knows WTH Trump will do when he steps in front of a microphone. |
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Post by sillyrabbit on Sept 4, 2017 15:02:56 GMT
I don't have any opinion on the topic at hand, but as the wife of a coal miner I think this was a pretty shitty thing to say. Believe it or not, my husband has many specialized skills he uses at his job. Miners aren't just dumb fucks who aren't fit for any other work besides being a field worker. Not that there's anything wrong with making a living as a field hand at all. I just get aggravated when people think any Tom, Dick, or Harry can be a coal miner. That's simply not true. ETA: I know you're post was tongue-in-cheek. Jokes about "those damn coal miners" just don't set well with me as it's my reality. We're real people just like the illegal immigrants trying to provide for our families. Neither should be a political toy. Who said anything about coal miners being "dumb fucks?" (Though you are implying that about agricultural workers.) I honestly wasn't attempting to imply anything about the coal miners' educational level or job difficulty. My point was that Trump campaigned heavily on the jobs issue, and coal jobs in particular. His promises aren't panning out (even though claims they are). He also relied heavily on the idea that undocumented people are dangerous and that they're stealing jobs from Americans. Most of the coal workers who didn't have jobs when Obama was in office, won't have jobs in that industry with Trump. It's an ever shrinking industry. Some of the most vehement Trump supporters I know accuse undocumented workers of taking American jobs. The truth is that it's a shit job that only desperate people do. Most Americans wouldn't take these jobs. Most of us look down on the people who do these jobs - you certainly do by the tone of your response to me. Why aren't out of work Americans (like the out of work coal miners that Trump made such a big deal of) taking these jobs if they're so great? Anyway, I'm sorry you felt I took a dig at the intelligence of coal workers. I respect anyone who works hard. Coal mining is dangerous, physically and emotionally taxing, and I couldn't do it. Thank you for your response. I was tired and overreacted as I often do when coal mining is mentioned. Not only am I married to a coal miner, but my daddy was also a coal miner, and he put me thru college working underground so it is deeply ingrained in me to value the industry. I understand what you are saying about the field workers. It is a shitty, hard, thankless job that no American dreams of doing. The illegals who do the job are just trying to do what the rest of us are doing and provide for their families. I wish neither group had to be a political pawn. |
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Post by femalebusiness on Sept 4, 2017 15:25:12 GMT
"However, the officials also cautioned Politico that "nothing is set in stone until an official announcement has been made." So basically we don't know anymore now than we did 2, 3, 4 days ago. They (the news outlets) sure love to stir it up, don't they? I don't think the media is stirring up anything. It is their job to report and give us fair warning about what the administration is planning to do. Would you have them wait until laws and changes are in place so that it is too late to protest, call their representatives etc? The media is our warning system. |
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 4, 2017 15:26:49 GMT
Trump gave the six month delay in order for Congress to act on this. This issue should be decided by Congress. Obama caused the problem when he used his "pen and his phone" to act like a king and sign DACA into law without Congress.
So for all of you expressing your typical outrage against Trump, get on the horn with your Congressmen, the elected officials *of the people*.
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Post by freecharlie on Sept 4, 2017 15:37:20 GMT
I teach these kids. Some of them don't even know they are here illegally until their late teens.
Many of them are good kids with hopes and dreams and they are productive members of our society.
These aren't the "bad hombres." You want to deport those convicted of crimes or have know gang affiliation? I wont make a peep, but they are going after people who have not hurt our society.
Every normal analysis saya this will hurt our country, but he and the rest of the republicans don't give a fuck.
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Post by compwalla on Sept 4, 2017 16:22:13 GMT
It's monstrous. But everything he does is monstrous so I am not surprised.
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Post by hop2 on Sept 4, 2017 16:29:00 GMT
I dont think people who want our immigration policies to be changed are all racists. Our policies have sucked for decades, pre Trump & pre Obama. If this disturbs you then write your congress persons & senators to actually revamp our immigration policies in the congress.
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 4, 2017 16:35:51 GMT
Obama should have left this to Congress. Simply because you don't think Congress will do what you want them to is no reason to by-pass them.
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