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Post by lucyg on Sept 11, 2014 2:41:08 GMT
I'm not crying racism and maybe I read too quickly, but it didn't see anyone else talking about it either. To me, that's a peripheral issue. For whatever reason, the chief said no stickers. To me that means no stickers. Turning it into a self-righteous matter of declaring their patriotism without regard to their boss's orders just reeks of a bunch of drama queens.
Sticking American flags on every available surface is not the only way to show one's patriotism. Sometimes just behaving like a good citizen does the trick.
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Post by myshelly on Sept 11, 2014 2:46:08 GMT
I just think it is likely there's way more to the story than we're being presented with here. It's a one-sided version of the truth and you can see the piles of people right here just dying to take offense over the alleged lack of respect to the American flag. I still say, until we know the full story, it's all a bunch of melodrama. And in the same note, you can see the piles of people right here just dying to cry racism. I still say too, until we know the full story, it's all a bunch of melodrama. Not one single person on this thread has said the American flag stickers are racist. Not one single person on this thread has cried racism. I'm not understanding your point or your argument.
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Post by SabrinaM on Sept 11, 2014 2:47:14 GMT
Something isn't adding up with this story. My guess someone didn't use common sense and took it a step too far.
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Post by megop on Sept 11, 2014 2:58:57 GMT
So am I to understand the position is that it is insubordination in and of itself because the employees did not remove the flag sticker (and keep in mind the prior flag event presented in Elaine's post with no explanation), but then were ultimately told they were being suspended due to the act of the stickers being racially damaging, and racism protectionist passion is not factoring into the decision to automatically say insubordination?
And I apologize. You are correct. No one "said it."
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Post by lucyg on Sept 11, 2014 3:03:38 GMT
oh hell. I thought Elaine's post was about the same situation. It's not? I am really skimming through too quickly.
The thing about the racism charge is that none of us know all the details. So I am not passing any judgment on that. My judgment is on the fact that everyone is so eager to jump on this situation as an example of patriotic Americans being mistreated and the flag being disrespected.
Tempest in a teapot. (And I am now searching for a new cliche to use in my next post.)
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Post by megop on Sept 11, 2014 3:07:38 GMT
oh hell. I thought Elaine's post was about the same situation. It's not? I am really skimming through too quickly. The thing about the racism charge is that none of us know all the details. So I am not passing any judgment on that. My judgment is on the fact that everyone is so eager to jump on this situation as an example of patriotic Americans being mistreated and the flag being disrespected. Tempest in a teapot. (And I am now searching for a new cliche to use in my next post.) Thank you. I agree with this as well!!!!
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Post by wezee on Sept 11, 2014 3:16:25 GMT
I think this situation is a slippery slope. I'm all for following the rules. Hell My dad was a Chief of Police & a LEO for 35 years. The question is does he have a LEGITIMATE reason to make such a rule? I am concerned that this situation is an over reach of his authority. I'll play the devil's advocate. According to the city website here is the official role of the Chief from Maywood is outlined as: The Role of the Fire Chief
Fire Chief Craig A. Bronaugh The Maywood Fire Department Chief provides direction for all firefighting and fire-prevention activities in the Village of Maywood as well as Department responses to a broad range of emergency situations. The Maywood Fire Department enjoys a long and distinguished tradition of service to the community. In recent years, the Department has become a vital participant in a Mutual Aid Response system, which facilitates coordinated coverage and responses to emergency situations by Fire Departments throughout Chicago's western suburbs. The Department is currently guided by the leadership of Chief Craig Bronaugh. That is his job description. His directive is to insure the safety of the citizens of Maywood. If the firefighters are expected to follow the rules shouldn't the Chief too? The way I see it he is bound to abide buy the directives of his job, just as the other members of the department are, isn't he being insubordinate as well?
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Post by elaine on Sept 11, 2014 3:17:36 GMT
My post was simply a newspaper article giving more details about the story than the initial post.
I am on the fence about this and would like more details before passing judgement.
Even in the military, you could be punished and eventually discharged if you put things on your uniform that were not stated could be there in that particular place, even if it was the flag. And you can't place other military logos on your uniform pieces willy-nilly either. So, placing a USMC sticker on your army hat wouldn't fly.
So, on the one hand, I understand the Chief's bottom line that they should follow uniform orders.
On the other hand, the firefighters aren't in the military, so maybe they shouldn't have the same level of scrutiny placed on details of their uniforms if they don't compromise safety. It certainly would help morale to have let the flag and flag stickers and USMC sticker be.
Even with the news story, important info is missing. I agree that there must be more to it than we are being told.
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Post by gardengoddess on Sept 11, 2014 3:23:02 GMT
I'm still trying to figure out who on this thread were "dying to cry racism".
It's really a poorly written article, but what I take away from it is if decals and stickers OF ALL KINDS are against written and documented policy and/or regulations and the firefighters disobeyed regardless of the reason, then I can see the insubordination problem.
This seems to be the problem statement and there are too many unanswered questions from those two sentences to start calling for a "sad day in America".
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Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,313
Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Sept 11, 2014 3:41:12 GMT
Federal law stipulates many aspects of flag etiquette. The section of law dealing with American Flag etiquette is generally referred to as the Flag Code. Some general guidelines from the Flag Code answer many of the most common questions:
The flag should be lighted at all times, either by sunlight or by an appropriate light source. The flag should be flown in fair weather, unless the flag is designed for inclement weather use. The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal. The flag should not be used for any decoration in general. Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top. The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard. The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations. The flag should never have any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind placed on it, or attached to it. The flag should never be used for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything. When the flag is lowered, no part of it should touch the ground or any other object; it should be received by waiting hands and arms. To store the flag it should be folded neatly and ceremoniously. The flag should be cleaned and mended when necessary. When a flag is so worn it is no longer fit to serve as a symbol of our country, it should be destroyed by burning in a dignified manner.
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Post by myshelly on Sept 11, 2014 4:02:43 GMT
Country Ham I have no idea what you think that adds to this discussion.
Seems incredibly irrelevant.
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Post by elaine on Sept 11, 2014 4:19:58 GMT
Country Ham I have no idea what you think that adds to this discussion. Seems incredibly irrelevant. To me it adds that Federal Guidelines say that while flag patches on a uniform are okay, flag stickers on their helmets are against the Federal Flag Code. Supports the Chief's asking the stickers be removed.
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Post by gardengoddess on Sept 11, 2014 4:21:33 GMT
Country Ham I have no idea what you think that adds to this discussion. Seems incredibly irrelevant. I agree. If the written policy states no decals OF ANY KIND, then no decals OF ANY KIND. Federal guidelines regarding flag etiquette has nothing to do with department policy.
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Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,313
Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Sept 11, 2014 4:23:10 GMT
Let me explain it then. I thought it was obvious. A few cries of "what is this country coming to" when people are asked to remove stickers. Acting like it's unpatriotic etc. I was going back to the firemen who said it was "unpatriotic" to remove the stickers. I am showing that it, in actuality, it's not unpatriotic at all. The very usage of the flag as a sticker on a helmet seems to go against flag etiquette or rules. If it's deemed a show of disrespect to ask American firefighters to remove the stickers what about the disrespect to the flag protocol to wear them in the first place?
ETA: I forgot to quote.
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Post by gardengoddess on Sept 11, 2014 4:26:39 GMT
Let me explain it then. I thought it was obvious. A few cries of "what is this country coming to" when people are asked to remove stickers. Acting like it's unpatriotic etc. The very usage of the flag as a sticker on a helmet seems to go against flag etiquette or rules. If it's deemed a show of disrespect to ask American firefighters to remove the stickers what about the disrespect to the flag protocol to wear them in the first place? ETA: I forgot to quote. Thank you for clarifying.
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Post by lucyg on Sept 11, 2014 5:27:11 GMT
I just noticed that the OP has been deleted and replaced with news reports, so my initial response (first response in the thread) no longer makes any sense.
I just want to clarify that I was responding to the original OP.
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Post by penny on Sept 11, 2014 9:26:30 GMT
A lot of fire departments are facing cutbacks... It may seem irrelevant, but presenting themselves as professionals (meaning uniform uniforms), is one way they are trying to get the message out that they are not just a bunch of guys who help out the community... They want to be seen and respected as professionals - firefighters become fire suppression technicians, fire departments become fire services...
I don't know of one fire service that does not have a SOG about uniform requirements and presentation... For example, uniforms must be free of holes, clean and pressed, etc... There are also rules about uniforms that deal with safety issues... Helmets are equipment and must be checked for safety... Adding stickers to equipment could obscure a problem during a visual inspection...
The Chief has every right and multiple good reasons to direct crews to remove decals from equipment bought and owned by the city...
As far as racism, I interpreted the racial comment to be in relation to the monkey drawing... Firefighters were often called "hose monkeys", but referring to a person (of any race), as a monkey is now viewed as not appropriate because of certain connotations... Whether there was a preceding event or he is being proactive, he is clearly looking to remove the possibility of it being a problem in the future...
I think that while true, the thread title stirs up drama... More accurately, they were suspended for having decals on their helmets... Meaning they were suspended for attaching stickers to company (the city), property and/or refusing to remove personal decals from workplace equipment...
Lots of drama and stirring up a bunch of issues, but unless there's some big fact not being said - there's a lot of logical and reasonable reasons to what happened... Boss says one thing, employees and their Union don't like it... Sounds like the writer was biased against the Chief and wanted the issue to be outrageous and get people angry at him for being unpatriotic, irrational, or just plain mean...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Sept 11, 2014 11:58:36 GMT
I am familiar with this town.
This is total speculation on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing stemmed from efforts to avoid becoming another Ferguson. The town is beset with poverty, unemployment, foreclosure, crime, gangs, etc.
From what I'm reading in the newspapers, the union rep for the firefighters is claiming a violation of free speech. Grrrr. The entire country needs to be sat down and made to learn about the first amendment.
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Post by megop on Sept 11, 2014 11:59:18 GMT
I just noticed that the OP has been deleted and replaced with news reports, so my initial response (first response in the thread) no longer makes any sense. I just want to clarify that I was responding to the original OP. Indeed! Very different presentation for sure!
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 11, 2014 15:23:23 GMT
While it's certainly insubordination, leaders who try and change long standing traditions, often find difficulties. The article states some of these firefighters have been wearing 9/11 decals for 13 YEARS. The article also cites a Marine decal placed on a locker by someone's father, a previous firefighter. I can't say I'm surprised there was some backlash. Bosses can certainly issue whatever orders they like. But if they're heavy handed and tread on long standing, emotional traditions, they could find themselves with some pretty unhappy employees.
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Post by lucyg on Sept 11, 2014 15:32:27 GMT
While it's certainly insubordination, leaders who try and change long standing traditions, often find difficulties. The article states some of these firefighters have been wearing 9/11 decals for 13 YEARS. The article also cites a Marine decal placed on a locker by someone's father, a previous firefighter. I can't say I'm surprised there was some backlash. Bosses can certainly issue whatever orders they like. But if they're heavy handed and tread on long standing, emotional traditions, they could find themselves with some pretty unhappy employees. It's still not what I would call "a sad day for America" (the statement that has now been removed from the OP). December 7, 1941 ... November 22, 1963 ... September 11, 2001 ... now those were sad days for the USA.
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Post by wezee on Sept 11, 2014 15:32:53 GMT
I'm the OP. I didn't delete my post I added the update and edited the WTH so the word update would fit. What happened?
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Post by lucyg on Sept 11, 2014 15:33:56 GMT
Dunno. Weird stuff happens. Computers hate me.
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MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
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Post by MizIndependent on Sept 11, 2014 15:55:19 GMT
So...what is the update? Can't find.
ETA: Found it, burried in the OP:
Bronaugh, what an ass.
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Post by wezee on Sept 11, 2014 15:58:08 GMT
HERE is the OP
Four Firefighters from a nearby town have been suspended because they won't remove American Flags from helmets. The chief says the emblems promote racism
Four Maywood firefighters have been relieved of duty for the day, and more could be disciplined Wednesday, for refusing to remove American flag decals from their helmets and lockers.
The four refused to comply with an order issued last week by Chief Craig Bronaugh to remove all stickers from their helmets and lockers. The four drew the line when it came to the flag decals.
A representative from Service Employees International Union Local 73, which represents the firefighters, met for an hour with Chief Bronaugh Tuesday afternoon, with the union hoping Chief Bronaugh would modify his order. Instead, he ordered the firefighters sent home immediately, pending disciplinary action.
The four firefighters said they were told that the order was issued because of racial discord on the department. The four, who include two white firefighters, a black firefighter, and a fourth firefighter who is a Cuban émigré, said no such problems exist.
Instead, they trace it back to a decision by several firefighters to replace a tattered American flag last month in one of Maywood’s firehouses. The new flag mysteriously disappeared early Aug. 23. The order on decals was issued last week.
UPDATE:
“After review, I made a decision to put a department-issued flag on every locker,” Bronaugh said at a news conference outside department headquarters. “I want everyone to be clear: There was never an issue of disposing of the flag.”
The four firefighters were relieved of their duties for the shift they were working on and were not docked any pay, he said.
Still, hard feelings remain over the Bronaugh's order.
“It's very hurtful and disrespectful the way things turned out,” firefighter David Flowers said. “Guys had 9/11 (stickers) ... on their helmets. It means a lot to us. Mine has been on (my helmet) since 9/11.” lRelated Maywood firefighters
Breaking News Maywood firefighters
See all related 8
Flowers, an African-American, was sent home Monday after he refused to remove a Marine Corps sticker from his locker that was placed there by his father, a former firefighter with the department who served as a Marine in the Vietnam War.
Bronaugh said Wednesday that his order was prompted by renovation plans at the department's facilities and by the desire to have a uniform appearance among his employees.
In a report Tuesday on WGN-Ch. 9, Bronaugh said he was trying to address racism within the department and showed as evidence a picture of a monkey smoking a cigarette that had been taped to a locker. cComments
It seems like Chief Bronaugh failed to think this through. I'd like to hear about Bronaugh's background. Did he come up through the ranks? Who's his clout? SoChicagoan at 9:58 PM September 10, 2014
Add a comment See all comments 42
“To see these pictures, and to draw the conclusion that there are racist firefighters working in this firehouse, (it is) something that as the fire chief here, I cannot afford nor tolerate,” Bronaugh said in the WGN report.
Bronaugh refused to answer questions about the picture Wednesday, even though members of his department said it was posted briefly about a decade ago and had nothing to do with race.
Former Maywood firefighter Michael Hess said he put the picture on the locker of Lt. David Hughes. Both Hess and Hughes are white. Hess said he did it to needle Hughes about his smoking habit.
“I saw the picture in the newspaper, cut it out and put it on his locker about 10 years ago,” Hess said. “It came down as quickly as it went up.”
Hughes said he was shocked that the incident would be used as evidence of racism.
Service Employees International Union Local 73, which represents the department's nearly three dozen firefighters, filed a complaint Wednesday with the Illinois Labor Relations Board.
Union spokesman Adam Rosen said the complaint alleges that the department refused to bargain with the union over the sticker decision, created a hostile work environment and denied members the right to have legal counsel present.
The dispute, he said, is about more than a few stickers.
“It's about freedom of speech, and there should be nothing wrong with them expressing their patriotism,” Rosen said
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Post by katieanna on Sept 11, 2014 18:18:47 GMT
Federal law stipulates many aspects of flag etiquette. The section of law dealing with American Flag etiquette is generally referred to as the Flag Code. Some general guidelines from the Flag Code answer many of the most common questions: The flag should be lighted at all times, either by sunlight or by an appropriate light source. The flag should be flown in fair weather, unless the flag is designed for inclement weather use. The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal. The flag should not be used for any decoration in general. Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top. The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard. The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations. The flag should never have any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind placed on it, or attached to it. The flag should never be used for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything. When the flag is lowered, no part of it should touch the ground or any other object; it should be received by waiting hands and arms. To store the flag it should be folded neatly and ceremoniously. The flag should be cleaned and mended when necessary. When a flag is so worn it is no longer fit to serve as a symbol of our country, it should be destroyed by burning in a dignified manner. No wonder my parents, grandparents, et al had a fit back in the 1970s when the American flag appeared on everything from clothing to novelties.
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Post by elaine on Sept 11, 2014 18:42:59 GMT
HERE is the OP Four Firefighters from a nearby town have been suspended because they won't remove American Flags from helmets. The chief says the emblems promote racism Four Maywood firefighters have been relieved of duty for the day, and more could be disciplined Wednesday, for refusing to remove American flag decals from their helmets and lockers. The four refused to comply with an order issued last week by Chief Craig Bronaugh to remove all stickers from their helmets and lockers. The four drew the line when it came to the flag decals. A representative from Service Employees International Union Local 73, which represents the firefighters, met for an hour with Chief Bronaugh Tuesday afternoon, with the union hoping Chief Bronaugh would modify his order. Instead, he ordered the firefighters sent home immediately, pending disciplinary action. The four firefighters said they were told that the order was issued because of racial discord on the department. The four, who include two white firefighters, a black firefighter, and a fourth firefighter who is a Cuban émigré, said no such problems exist. Instead, they trace it back to a decision by several firefighters to replace a tattered American flag last month in one of Maywood’s firehouses. The new flag mysteriously disappeared early Aug. 23. The order on decals was issued last week. UPDATE: “After review, I made a decision to put a department-issued flag on every locker,” Bronaugh said at a news conference outside department headquarters. “I want everyone to be clear: There was never an issue of disposing of the flag.” The four firefighters were relieved of their duties for the shift they were working on and were not docked any pay, he said. Still, hard feelings remain over the Bronaugh's order. “It's very hurtful and disrespectful the way things turned out,” firefighter David Flowers said. “Guys had 9/11 (stickers) ... on their helmets. It means a lot to us. Mine has been on (my helmet) since 9/11.” lRelated Maywood firefighters Breaking News Maywood firefighters See all related 8 Flowers, an African-American, was sent home Monday after he refused to remove a Marine Corps sticker from his locker that was placed there by his father, a former firefighter with the department who served as a Marine in the Vietnam War. Bronaugh said Wednesday that his order was prompted by renovation plans at the department's facilities and by the desire to have a uniform appearance among his employees. In a report Tuesday on WGN-Ch. 9, Bronaugh said he was trying to address racism within the department and showed as evidence a picture of a monkey smoking a cigarette that had been taped to a locker. cComments It seems like Chief Bronaugh failed to think this through. I'd like to hear about Bronaugh's background. Did he come up through the ranks? Who's his clout? SoChicagoan at 9:58 PM September 10, 2014 Add a comment See all comments 42 “To see these pictures, and to draw the conclusion that there are racist firefighters working in this firehouse, (it is) something that as the fire chief here, I cannot afford nor tolerate,” Bronaugh said in the WGN report. Bronaugh refused to answer questions about the picture Wednesday, even though members of his department said it was posted briefly about a decade ago and had nothing to do with race. Former Maywood firefighter Michael Hess said he put the picture on the locker of Lt. David Hughes. Both Hess and Hughes are white. Hess said he did it to needle Hughes about his smoking habit. “I saw the picture in the newspaper, cut it out and put it on his locker about 10 years ago,” Hess said. “It came down as quickly as it went up.” Hughes said he was shocked that the incident would be used as evidence of racism. Service Employees International Union Local 73, which represents the department's nearly three dozen firefighters, filed a complaint Wednesday with the Illinois Labor Relations Board. Union spokesman Adam Rosen said the complaint alleges that the department refused to bargain with the union over the sticker decision, created a hostile work environment and denied members the right to have legal counsel present. The dispute, he said, is about more than a few stickers. “It's about freedom of speech, and there should be nothing wrong with them expressing their patriotism,” Rosen said This was not the original OP. The original OP was much shorter and either opened or closed with "it's a sad day in America." The original sounded so much like the group emails my ultra conservative relative forwards to me (and everyone in the extended family) that he gets from some news list, that I originally looked it up on Snopes. I then posted a news story more full describing the incident. You changed it to this after quite a few people, including Lucy, responded to your first post, and the above wasn't it. Hence all the references to being dramatic and truly sad days in American history.
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Post by myshelly on Sept 11, 2014 18:58:00 GMT
I agree with Elaine.
That was not the original OP.
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Post by wezee on Sept 11, 2014 20:06:58 GMT
THIS IS THE OP: I deleted It's a sad day......... because I could see how it may have been seen as melodramatic. I'm not a drama queen lol. Four Firefighters from a nearby town have been suspended because they won't remove American Flags from helmets. The chief says the emblems promote racism
Four Maywood firefighters have been relieved of duty for the day, and more could be disciplined Wednesday, for refusing to remove American flag decals from their helmets and lockers.
The four refused to comply with an order issued last week by Chief Craig Bronaugh to remove all stickers from their helmets and lockers. The four drew the line when it came to the flag decals.
A representative from Service Employees International Union Local 73, which represents the firefighters, met for an hour with Chief Bronaugh Tuesday afternoon, with the union hoping Chief Bronaugh would modify his order. Instead, he ordered the firefighters sent home immediately, pending disciplinary action.
The four firefighters said they were told that the order was issued because of racial discord on the department. The four, who include two white firefighters, a black firefighter, and a fourth firefighter who is a Cuban émigré, said no such problems exist.
Instead, they trace it back to a decision by several firefighters to replace a tattered American flag last month in one of Maywood’s firehouses. The new flag mysteriously disappeared early Aug. 23. The order on decals was issued last week.
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Post by lucyg on Sept 11, 2014 20:21:12 GMT
Wezee, thanks. I'm sorry, I know it seems like I and some others are jumping all over you about this drama queen stuff. Please understand, it's nothing personal. That said ... you left off your original last line about it being a sad day for America. ETA oh DUH, on rereading, I see you mentioned that. It's not that I didn't read your post. It's that my brain is only half working today. sigh, sorry
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