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Post by gale w on Mar 19, 2019 18:14:53 GMT
over "chemically etched dies" which I guess is what low profile dies are. If they go after every company that makes low profile dies this could really smash the matching stamp and die market. Stampin Up's matching dies are made by Sizzix so they're safe, but so many other companies make matching dies and even standalone dies that aren't even close to what sizzix could come up with (lawn fawn, for example). This might just alter my glowing respect for Sizzix/Ellison.  link here |
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Post by cbet on Mar 19, 2019 19:30:53 GMT
Not a lawyer, and I might be reading it wrong, but the patent seems to be not for the chemically etched dies themselves, but for a better way to line them up for cutting. Sizzix was the first company I remember seeing where the cutting edge of the die was right at the inside edge, so you could see where it would cut (unlike Spellbinders, where the cutting edge is kind of centered between the borders). Heartfelt Creations has that same cutting edge right on the inside window. Maybe that's what their argument is?
Either way, it really harshes my buzz when companies that I like start fighting with each other over stuff like this. I can't imagine that most people (even most papercrafters) really notice that difference. Myself, I don't use all that many dies that exactly cut out stamped images; if I did, I'd buy a scan & cut and save lots of $$$ on the dies. And now that I know how to use my stamp platform to stamp after I've cut, it doesn't really matter where the cutting edge hits.
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Post by gale w on Mar 19, 2019 21:58:04 GMT
Maybe. Hero arts has the same style of dies where the cutting edge is right at the end of the die. J Mcguire mentions it a lot when she uses their dies in videos. I'm not sure if any other companies do.
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Post by cbet on Mar 19, 2019 23:31:08 GMT
Maybe Hero Arts paid Sizzix to be able to use the technology? I just want more news about new ways to use some of what I have and less about what their lawyers are getting up to. I'm agreeing with you, by the way.
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Post by riversong1963 on Mar 20, 2019 0:01:59 GMT
I guess with MSP suing so many companies, other companies will jump on the lawsuit bandwagon. Is that what we have to look forward to in the industry? I really nope not.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Mar 20, 2019 0:13:18 GMT
Seems more than a bit hypocritical to me, considering that Accu-Cut (Ellison's competition) designed the roller system die-cutter, which system Ellison blatantly copied when it changed from the clunky red Sizzix to the portable roller version they now sell.
This lawsuit makes me sick.
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jill8909
Junior Member
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Post by jill8909 on Mar 20, 2019 20:55:50 GMT
Sizzix sued Hero Arts a couple of months ago. Same issue.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Mar 20, 2019 21:55:38 GMT
Not a lawyer, and I might be reading it wrong, but the patent seems to be not for the chemically etched dies themselves, but for a better way to line them up for cutting. Sizzix was the first company I remember seeing where the cutting edge of the die was right at the inside edge, so you could see where it would cut (unlike Spellbinders, where the cutting edge is kind of centered between the borders). Heartfelt Creations has that same cutting edge right on the inside window. Maybe that's what their argument is? I'm not a lawyer, either, but I went and read the info given in the link, and it seems to refer to the "method" multiple times, and it also referred to a video on the Heartfelt Creations site. I also looked at several of my HC dies. Those that are stand alone dies have the cutting edge in the middle, which allows for a slim embossed edge. Those dies which match their stamps are right on the inside edge. Heartfelt Creations is a small company. The owners and their employees are really sweet, nice people. They are former Amish and may not be as savvy in the ways of the legal world. Lawsuits are frequently used to destroy the competition. I really hope Hearfelt Creations survives this. I don't buy that many Sizzix dies. I buy far more Heartfelt Creations dies. I wonder if crushing all their competition, the way MSP has tried to do, is really what Ellison/Sizzix is trying to do. At this point, I will not be buying any more Sizzix dies or products. |
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josie29
Junior Member
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Post by josie29 on Mar 21, 2019 3:55:19 GMT
I guess with MSP suing so many companies, other companies will jump on the lawsuit bandwagon. Is that what we have to look forward to in the industry? I really nope not. Oh my gosh, it would be a sad, SAD day if this is what is going to happen on a regular basis. I had no idea about these lawsuits. Companies will just go under because they won't have the resources to fight them. |
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Mar 21, 2019 6:41:58 GMT
From the litigation info that was linked (the emphasis in the second paragraph is mine): "On July 15, 2011, Ellison filed a provisional patent application for a “Chemical-Etched Die Having Improved Registration Means.” The ‘325 Patent was issued stemming from the provisional patent application on July 14, 2015. Heartfelt is alleged to have created patterns that are turned into chemically-etched dies and are used in conjunction with the method taught by the ‘325 Patent. Further, the company gives demonstrations on how to use the product in violation of the ‘325 Patent and teaches the public how to infringe the ‘325 Patent on Heartfelt’s YouTube channel. Ellison sent a cease and desist letter to Heartfelt based on Ellison’s beliefs Heartfelt was infringing the ‘325 Patent on December 21, 2018." Notice that first date of July 11, 2011, when Ellison filed the application for the patent. The patent was approved in 2015. I was watching a couple of Hearfelt Creations tutorials this evening. After I finished watching them, I decided to see if I could find the video that Ellison claimed used the method referred to in the lawsuit. I wanted to see what the video posting date was. The following video is on the Heartfelt Creations website, and teaches the method that I think is at the heart of the lawsuit: link to video showing method of lining up dies with stamped imagesThe date that the video was posted on the Heartfelt Creations website was July 6, 2011, a week prior to the date that Ellison filed for their patent. Since the video was from a craft show segment, it may have been taped and aired on TV even earlier than the July 6, 2011 date. So if the "method" is the main basis of the lawsuit, Ellison may not have a leg to stand on, and it could come back to bite them legally. Heartfelt Creations was already publicly using the method of lining up dies with stamped images prior to Ellison filing for the patent. |
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Post by gale w on Mar 21, 2019 7:36:57 GMT
I don't have proof but someone on fb said Ellison is suing several other companies as well.
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Post by freeatlast on Mar 21, 2019 11:32:35 GMT
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Post by mcjunkin on Mar 21, 2019 12:41:40 GMT
Been using Ellison products since my teacher days 20 years ago. Had the old red handle Sizzix. Now the Vagabond. LOVE the Tim Holtz/Sizzix partnership. Own MANY MANY sets. However, if the lawsuit succeeds and takes away my options for purchasing (as the MISTI debacle has by having products pulled), not another Sizzix product will be purchased here. They are not the only game in town, and should not be. Sorry Tim. (sobbing, gasping,hoping this is dropped)
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Mar 21, 2019 14:02:34 GMT
They are not the only game in town, and should not be.  |
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Post by anniefb on Mar 21, 2019 17:31:38 GMT
They are not the only game in town, and should not be. Agree totally! |
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Post by angel97701 on Mar 21, 2019 20:02:05 GMT
This just makes me sad! I wonder, if we as crafters contacted Sizzix and expressed our disappointment, if it would make a difference?
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Post by gmcwife1 on Mar 21, 2019 21:47:12 GMT
I’m really confused on them going after Stephanie Barnard, I thought she worked with Sizzix  |
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Post by freeatlast on Mar 21, 2019 21:56:50 GMT
I’m really confused on them going after Stephanie Barnard, I thought she worked with Sizzix The issue with Stephanie, according to the filing, was that she created her own dies that infringed on the 325 patent and had them made by someone other than Ellison. ETA: she has what the document describes as a "consulting" relationship where she designs for Ellison. Under a licensing agreement, Ellison then manufacturers and sells the dies designed by Stephanie and she is paid a royalty. |
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Post by angel97701 on Mar 21, 2019 23:20:58 GMT
So what about all the other chemically etched dies, will they go after Quickutz/Lifestyle crafts? Spellbinders? Really makes no sense!
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leeny
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,627
Location: Northern California
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Jun 27, 2014 1:55:53 GMT
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Post by leeny on Mar 22, 2019 0:43:44 GMT
I just hate this stuff. There is room for everyone!
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Post by Embri on Mar 22, 2019 3:03:46 GMT
Yet more examples of the copyright/patent system being used for exactly the opposite of what it was supposed to be - stifling innovation.
I know a lot of folks hate on the Chinese knockoffs for the same reason (there's absolutely no protection for intellectual property over there unless you have political clout) but it does lead to iteration and advancement rather than the stagnation and infighting of the US system. Having the edge of the cut visible doesn't seem like something that should have been granted a patent in the first place to me. But then Apple supposedly has the patent on a rounded rectangle, so... *helpless shrug* Stupider things have been patented.
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Post by gale w on Mar 22, 2019 14:28:19 GMT
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Mar 22, 2019 16:18:44 GMT
They've obviously been keeping the courts busy. It really sounds as though Ellison/Sizzix are doing exactly what MSP has been doing. They made a small adjustment to someone else's invention, succeeded in getting a patent on it, as well as on the method for lining up dies with stamped images (which method was being used publicly by Heartfelt Creations prior to the Ellison/Sizzix patent application), and now it looks like the courts are being used to eliminate all competition. It's not how the courts are supposed to be used. |
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Post by Embri on Mar 22, 2019 17:02:24 GMT
It's not how the courts are supposed to be used. No, not at all. Patents were originally supposed to be protection for individuals against companies coming along and swiping their inventions lock, stock and barrel without compensation, not as a tool for one company to bully another out of the market or into financial distress. Not enough freedom in the market leads to horrible situations like the absolutely criminal prices of insulin going on right now in the US. At least craft dies are a luxury, and not a necessity for life? *headshakes* |
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Post by gale w on Mar 22, 2019 19:18:56 GMT
Luxury for the buyers but they're income for the companies selling them.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Mar 22, 2019 21:00:58 GMT
Luxury for the buyers but they're income for the companies selling them. And those companies have employees who could end up with no job if their company gets destroyed by legal fees. That happened to a company my DH worked for. It was a totally unjust lawsuit that dragged on for years. It essentially came to nothing in the end, but the company was destroyed financially, employees lost their jobs, and the only winners were the lawyers. That is why these lawsuits bother me so much. |
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pinklady
Drama Llama
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Post by pinklady on Mar 22, 2019 22:19:39 GMT
I think the lawsuit is ridiculous but it’s their right to sue if it really is a patent infringement.
Honestly, what I find the most hypocritical are the ones who are condemning Sizzix but actively praise and promote the misti lady.
Also, while I understand why the post was deleted from the enablers Facebook page, I think it got deleted because this sentiment was expressed and totally made Jennifer McGuire look bad.
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scrapnnana
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Post by scrapnnana on Mar 23, 2019 4:02:17 GMT
I think the lawsuit is ridiculous but it’s their right to sue if it really is a patent infringement. Honestly, what I find the most hypocritical are the ones who are condemning Sizzix but actively praise and promote the misti lady. True. It is their right if it really is a patent infringement, but Sizzix did not invent chemically etched dies any more than MSP invented the letterpress which she adapted. Both made "derivative works," which usually requires permission from the original inventor or patent holder. It appears that the Sizzix patent application may have taken advantage of an unusual legal situation that resulted from the ruling in the Spellbinders vs. QuicKutz lawsuit. Part of the lawsuit Sizzix brought against Heartfelt Creations has to do with "the method," which sounds as though it may refer to the method of lining up the dies with stamped images. Their lawsuit paperwork refers to a video on Heartfelt Creations' YouTube channel. However, Heartfelt Creations also has a video using the method on their website, and that one definitely pre-dates the Sizzix patent application. I did not find any similar videos by Sizzix that predate that one of Heartfelt Creations. It makes me wonder, whose rights are really being violated? I have a very low opinion of both Sizzix and MSP. Both appear to be unfairly using law and the courts to gain advantage and to hurt or destroy their competition. As for those who support one or another of the companies involved in the lawsuits, people tend to believe what they want to believe. I am obviously not impartial, either. I've seen how lawsuits are too often used to win the legal lottery and crush opponents. The good guys don't always win. |
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Post by Embri on Mar 23, 2019 5:54:53 GMT
The good guys don't always win. The guys with the most political and financial clout almost always win. |
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Deleted
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Apr 19, 2024 19:58:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 6:06:25 GMT
Just OMG! Here I am looking forward to my weekend posting and what do I see? Another friggin lawsuit! Really Sizzix. Seriously? Shame on you if you didn't reach out to Heartfelt Creations and try to work out something. I really hope you didn't just go sue a beloved respected small company out of the blue without trying to work this out. To all that are professional in the industry- What is wrong with you? What has gotten into you that you have all gotten sue crazy instead of working together? When I hear now how the paper crafting community is such a family and support each other I just gag. Lies, lies, lies! I haven't seen support in a long time. I have seen a lot of money hungry witch slapping. When you complain about how the Chinese are hurting you. I can tell you for a fact it's because you did it! You push the consumers to the Chinese. China has knock-off products. You have a core audience that will always prefer to buy genuine. You keep looking for ways for us to not support your companies. This just sickens me. Once again for the ten million time I will say it I am all for companies and individuals protecting their patents, products and copyrights. What is going on lately in our industry? It doesn't seem protecting but trying for a monopoly. Before anyone says this or that in argument to me. I am respectful of that too. I have been working in the gaming and illustration industry for over 20 years. I get my stuff stolen all the time. I don't even consider it stolen. If I see an issue then I calmly and politely talk to the person. Ninety percent of the time the person has been so kind and apologetic, fixed the problem. I only had one lawsuit that was a group lawsuit because of a stationery company outright stealing. That lawsuit was actually one of the first ones that brought up the conversation of digital images and copyright law. The only reason the stationery company lost this gray area because they actually were stupid enough to steal images that were already in print, lol. I am on a rant about this. I am so seriously tired of this industry and the terrible way they act. I do hope there is more to this with Sizzix. I do hope they tried to work out something before pulling a lawsuit. You know this is not the first time we heard Sizzix doing something like this over the years. Now, it's social media instead of CHA gossip.  Another thing companies need to understand that you can get all sue happy for other companies using newest innovations like etched whatever metal thingy dies. I don't care about the proper term, lol. Companies need to understand on both sides that one competing companies think this is the new standard that should be adopted. Two I feel it's up to the competing suing company to also educate that this is their creation to be credited in the proper way. Great job Sizzix. Respected artists are starting to incorporate Sizzix products in their own creations. You can create a rift there. I know I am going to be talking about this. We have enough to worry about in our own industry without worrying about soap opera mess in the crafting industry.
Sorry for the long rant. Not really, lol. It has a been a week of listening to one drama after another IRL. Nothing towards me just you know how it goes. I love my fun gossip over here but this lawsuit thing triggered me, lol.
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