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Post by sleepingbooty on Apr 16, 2019 18:22:11 GMT
Président Macron has just spoken to the country. He plans on having Notre-Dame rebuilt in five years' time, just in time for the Olympic Games Paris will be hosting in 2024. WOW... now I call that amazing... I wonder if that is what he wants to be done.. Will that really be possible from the expert's point of view? That would be wonderful to have it opened that fast. Now I am thinking I feel sorry for all those who are members of the church.. they are all going to have to find another church for a few years. He also said it was possible. Saint-Sulpice and Saint-Eustache will take over Notre-Dame's services and attendants. That was already worked out last night and will be in place in time for the Easter celebrations.
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Post by sleepingbooty on Apr 16, 2019 18:34:41 GMT
For any francophiles out there or those who like to decypher what Google Translate comes up, here's a great article from a very reputable French newspaper (Le Monde) about what happened from the point of view of the firefighters, the decisions they made, the robot Colossus, etc. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to translate it in full right now.
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luvnlifelady
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,421
Jun 26, 2014 2:34:35 GMT
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Post by luvnlifelady on Apr 16, 2019 18:40:43 GMT
Are they still saying it was accidental (hopefully), possibly caused by someone doing repair work? My bf and I both read that there was an attempted truck bombing there recently. Yes. The extreme right has tried to make it sound like it might be of terrorist origin but they've been shut down very quickly by all those involved in the case. The police, government officials and Notre-Dame officials are all saying it's very likely accidental. The parquet (prosecutor) of Paris launched a criminal investigation for unintentional destruction through fire. That's good. Thanks for that info. I would've thought it would be too soon to figure out a cause/reason so soon but I sure hope it is just accidental. Glad they are making plans to repair it.
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Post by gillyp on Apr 16, 2019 18:47:31 GMT
I totally get wanting the repairs to be done in time for the Olympics but in my very unlearned mind, it seems too ambitious. Many specialists are going to be needed to carry out, in some cases, painstaking work. These specialists aren’t likely to be sitting around waiting for a call, there is every chance many of them will already currently be working on ongoing projects. It would be wonderful to have it coincide with the Olympics though and if Macron can manage to get it pulled off, great.
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Deleted
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Apr 25, 2024 8:51:17 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2019 18:54:41 GMT
I totally get wanting the repairs to be done in time for the Olympics but in my very unlearned mind, it seems too ambitious. Many specialists are going to be needed to carry out, in some cases, painstaking work. These specialists aren’t likely to be sitting around waiting for a call, there is every chance many of them will already currently be working on ongoing projects. It would be wonderful to have it coincide with the Olympics though and if Macron can manage to get it pulled off, great. I think that's true, but I would guess many specialists and artisans would give up every job they're currently on to work on the famed Notre Dame.
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Post by sleepingbooty on Apr 16, 2019 19:06:21 GMT
t would be wonderful to have it coincide with the Olympics though and if Macron can manage to get it pulled off, great. I'm guessing that they'll get the rebuild far enough to allow groups of visitors in during the Olympics but it won't be completed. I mean, I know how slow us Frenchies can be...
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Deleted
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Apr 25, 2024 8:51:17 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2019 19:37:03 GMT
I totally get wanting the repairs to be done in time for the Olympics but in my very unlearned mind, it seems too ambitious. Many specialists are going to be needed to carry out, in some cases, painstaking work. These specialists aren’t likely to be sitting around waiting for a call, there is every chance many of them will already currently be working on ongoing projects. It would be wonderful to have it coincide with the Olympics though and if Macron can manage to get it pulled off, great. I think that's true, but I would guess many specialists and artisans would give up every job they're currently on to work on the famed Notre Dame. I don’t think they would if they’re under contract to someone else. Breach of contract could ruin them for any future work. We’re not talking about your day to day roofer or carpenter here, we’re talking about quite highly qualified specialist workers.
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Post by gillyp on Apr 16, 2019 19:48:08 GMT
I think that's true, but I would guess many specialists and artisans would give up every job they're currently on to work on the famed Notre Dame. I don’t think they would if they’re under contract to someone else. Breach of contract could ruin them for any future work. We’re not talking about your day to day roofer or carpenter here, we’re talking about quite highly qualified specialist workers. That was pretty much what I was thinking but perhaps the government would be willing to pay for the artisan to be temporarily released from a contract. The employer under the contract would then have the kudos of being able to say his work was done by someone who helped restore Notre Dame. Win/win in my opinion.
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Post by sleepingbooty on Apr 16, 2019 19:52:27 GMT
I think that's true, but I would guess many specialists and artisans would give up every job they're currently on to work on the famed Notre Dame. I don’t think they would if they’re under contract to someone else. Breach of contract could ruin them for any future work. We’re not talking about your day to day roofer or carpenter here, we’re talking about quite highly qualified specialist workers. The craftsmen that would be hired either work for one of the companies that are specialised in historical building renovation and conservation or come from the Compagnons du Devoir apprenticeship programme. The major difficulty faced right now is sourcing all the dry and ready-to-use oak.
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Post by sleepingbooty on Apr 16, 2019 19:54:27 GMT
One of the rare pictures of the work the firefighters faced inside the cathedral:
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Deleted
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Apr 25, 2024 8:51:17 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2019 19:56:24 GMT
I don’t think they would if they’re under contract to someone else. Breach of contract could ruin them for any future work. We’re not talking about your day to day roofer or carpenter here, we’re talking about quite highly qualified specialist workers. That was pretty much what I was thinking but perhaps the government would be willing to pay for the artisan to be temporarily released from a contract. The employer under the contract would then have the kudos of being able to say his work was done by someone who helped restore Notre Dame. Win/win in my opinion. Possibly, but it would depend on who they need. Leaving someone else’s job could also be detrimental to others on that job. “If this part isn’t done then this part can’t go ahead” type of scenario
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Post by Marina on Apr 16, 2019 20:10:31 GMT
I'm so saddened by the destruction of such a historic building. I was shocked when I heard the news. We had hoped to see it in person this summer. I'm glad so many are coming forward to help it be restored. Fortunately I'm sure they have many high resolution pictures to work off of today. What a loss though. So happy they were able to remove all the artwork.
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scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,306
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
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Post by scrappinghappy on Apr 16, 2019 22:00:30 GMT
For any francophiles out there or those who like to decypher what Google Translate comes up, here's a great article from a very reputable French newspaper (Le Monde) about what happened from the point of view of the firefighters, the decisions they made, the robot Colossus, etc. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to translate it in full right now. My absolute favorite quote (from Google translation): In the crowd of baboons watching the firefighters at work, a question comes up as a leitmotif: "Why not use a water bomber?
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scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,306
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
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Post by scrappinghappy on Apr 16, 2019 22:27:34 GMT
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cakediva
Drama Llama
Making the world a sweeter place one cake at a time!
Posts: 7,403
Location: Fergus, Ontario
Jun 26, 2014 11:53:40 GMT
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Post by cakediva on Apr 16, 2019 22:43:37 GMT
Im so frustrated at a Facebook friend - she's also a local acquaintance that I've met with during women in networking meetings. She posted a link to the news story about the prominent families donating over $700 million towards the rebuild, and commented "good to see people have their priorities, never mind the poor, homeless, environment, pffft"
I commented that you can't possibly know what other humanitarian works these companies are involved in. That a quick Google search told me L'Oreal backed Red Cross for refugee help and Louis Vitton partnered with UNICEF.....and she replied "fair point but I just get frustrated when I think about what else that money could go to...real help for people in need - it's just a building after all"
Wow - just a building. I have a very hard time thinking of it as just a building!! My heart breaks at the loss of all that history and the artifacts that were lost.
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Post by Basket1lady on Apr 16, 2019 23:12:44 GMT
Im so frustrated at a Facebook friend - she's also a local acquaintance that I've met with during women in networking meetings. She posted a link to the news story about the prominent families donating over $700 million towards the rebuild, and commented "good to see people have their priorities, never mind the poor, homeless, environment, pffft" I commented that you can't possibly know what other humanitarian works these companies are involved in. That a quick Google search told me L'Oreal backed Red Cross for refugee help and Louis Vitton partnered with UNICEF.....and she replied "fair point but I just get frustrated when I think about what else that money could go to...real help for people in need - it's just a building after all" Wow - just a building. I have a very hard time thinking of it as just a building!! My heart breaks at the loss of all that history and the artifacts that were lost. Yes, it's just a building. But people choose where their money goes. Should we not have animal shelters because that money isn't going towards people? Should we not donate toward start ups? Should the Pentagon not have been rebuilt after 9-11? Parks not built? The list goes on and on. Notre Dame is an icon and a symbol of France. How many go to Paris and don't at least snap a photo of the exterior?
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Post by Basket1lady on Apr 16, 2019 23:16:00 GMT
WOW... now I call that amazing... I wonder if that is what he wants to be done.. Will that really be possible from the expert's point of view? That would be wonderful to have it opened that fast. Now I am thinking I feel sorry for all those who are members of the church.. they are all going to have to find another church for a few years. He also said it was possible. Saint-Sulpice and Saint-Eustache will take over Notre-Dame's services and attendants. That was already worked out last night and will be in place in time for the Easter celebrations. workingclassdog , It's my understanding that Notre Dame is no longer a parish church. No baptisms, funerals, or weddings take place there. It is used to hold Mass and for confessions. So while they may attend Mass there regularly, the big events aren't held there. There was a woman on Anderson Cooper last night talking about the weddings and such that will need to be postponed or held elsewhere. I was under the impression that this was not true. sleepingbooty , do you know about this?
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Deleted
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Apr 25, 2024 8:51:17 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2019 23:29:26 GMT
He also said it was possible. Saint-Sulpice and Saint-Eustache will take over Notre-Dame's services and attendants. That was already worked out last night and will be in place in time for the Easter celebrations. workingclassdog , It's my understanding that Notre Dame is no longer a parish church. No baptisms, funerals, or weddings take place there. It is used to hold Mass and for confessions. So while they may attend Mass there regularly, the big events aren't held there. There was a woman on Anderson Cooper last night talking about the weddings and such that will need to be postponed or held elsewhere. I was under the impression that this was not true. sleepingbooty , do you know about this? You're right they don't hold them there. link
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Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Apr 16, 2019 23:50:17 GMT
For any francophiles out there or those who like to decypher what Google Translate comes up, here's a great article from a very reputable French newspaper (Le Monde) about what happened from the point of view of the firefighters, the decisions they made, the robot Colossus, etc. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to translate it in full right now. Excellent article! That answers so many questions I had. The idea of fighting the fire from the inside isn’t something I expected.
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Post by joblackford on Apr 17, 2019 2:13:07 GMT
Thank you for the updates sleepingbooty. I should've come here yesterday - I avoided most of the news until I could know how things would pan out. I didn't want to hear the inane comments and speculation that the local news stations tend to resort to when they don't have answers yet. I was shocked to see the photos on social media yesterday and immediately assumed that someone had done this intentionally (I didn't know about the restoration at first) so my reaction on reading the news was relief that it was likely an accident. Your updates and attitude have eased a little of my sadness too. My (cold atheist) heart was lifted by the video of people singing in the streets, mourning the loss as the fire raged. I'm sad on a personal level that I did not get to see what it was, and that it may not be rebuilt when I have a chance to see it (who knows when that will be). But I am reminded that nothing is static, nothing is forever, but luckily humans have a knack for fixing stuff. <3
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Deleted
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Apr 25, 2024 8:51:17 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2019 3:27:25 GMT
"Although parts of Paris' Notre Dame Cathedral now lie in ruins, people can still experience what most of its nooks and crannies looked like in remarkable detail -- thanks to an American art historian. Andrew Tallon, a professor of art at Vassar College, used lasers to painstakingly scan the cathedral in 2015, giving us a nearly perfect digital replica of the Gothic structure. And his work could help architects and engineers rebuild it after Monday's fire. Tallon studied Gothic architecture and sought to understand how medieval builders erected some of Europe's great cathedrals. So he created a spatial map of Notre Dame using more than a billion laser-measured points. Even though Tallon died in December, his digital model will be crucial for restoration efforts because it details exactly what the church looked like before the fire's destruction." www.cnn.com/2019/04/16/world/andrew-tallon-notre-dame-laser-scan-trnd/index.html
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Post by sleepingbooty on Apr 17, 2019 6:04:16 GMT
He also said it was possible. Saint-Sulpice and Saint-Eustache will take over Notre-Dame's services and attendants. That was already worked out last night and will be in place in time for the Easter celebrations. workingclassdog , It's my understanding that Notre Dame is no longer a parish church. No baptisms, funerals, or weddings take place there. It is used to hold Mass and for confessions. So while they may attend Mass there regularly, the big events aren't held there. There was a woman on Anderson Cooper last night talking about the weddings and such that will need to be postponed or held elsewhere. I was under the impression that this was not true. sleepingbooty , do you know about this? You're correct: Notre-Dame is no longer a parish church so it doesn't have the duty of performing baptisms, funerals and weddings for local believers. It held four daily mass services, the daily vespers, Catholic celebrations and exceptional religious services. Saint-Sulpice is similar in capicity and will absorb the Easter celebration, likely led by the archbishop of Paris, Michel Aupetit. Aupetit performed the daily evening mass service at Notre-Dame which was a bit of a must-see for French Catholics visiting Paris. Whether he'll continue to perform daily at Saint-Sulpice and/or Saint-Eustache is not known at the moment. Any exceptional religious services that were planned will likely be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. A contemporary wedding at Notre-Dame (with onlooking tourists ) looked like this for anyone interested:
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Post by sleepingbooty on Apr 17, 2019 6:14:06 GMT
I'm sad on a personal level that I did not get to see what it was, and that it may not be rebuilt when I have a chance to see it (who knows when that will be). But I am reminded that nothing is static, nothing is forever, but luckily humans have a knack for fixing stuff. <3 It was a shock to see the flames eating up the structure during all these hours. I was unable of looking away. But I think for many French people the news that the fire was resorbing and the first images inside the cathedral were a genuine sigh of relief. I'm guessing it will at least be partially rebuilt to the point of being open to the public (perhaps not on a 365 days/year basis) in five years' time. So, please, don't feel too sad or blue about what happened or the fact you didn't get to visit it in its previous state. I genuinely look forward to what this rebuild will hold in store for us and how our great dame will rise again, with some little symbolic modifications and additions here and there. You'll come visit us when she's back on her feet. And go to a nice fromagerie. And buy real nice baguette. And some wine. And some macarons from Pierre Hermé. And have yourself a little improvised picnic. Fluctuat nec mergitur is the motto of the city of Paris after all...
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Post by sleepingbooty on Apr 17, 2019 6:34:29 GMT
Im so frustrated at a Facebook friend - she's also a local acquaintance that I've met with during women in networking meetings. She posted a link to the news story about the prominent families donating over $700 million towards the rebuild, and commented "good to see people have their priorities, never mind the poor, homeless, environment, pffft"I commented that you can't possibly know what other humanitarian works these companies are involved in. That a quick Google search told me L'Oreal backed Red Cross for refugee help and Louis Vitton partnered with UNICEF.....and she replied "fair point but I just get frustrated when I think about what else that money could go to...real help for people in need - it's just a building after all" Wow - just a building. I have a very hard time thinking of it as just a building!! My heart breaks at the loss of all that history and the artifacts that were lost. It sounds like your Facebook friend is feeling very frustrated herself with the state of the world and the inequalities that plague us. With good reason. It's likely blinding her when it comes to understanding the historical importance and great cultural value of Notre-Dame, especially if she hasn't visited it or doesn't live close enough to grasp what this cathedral represents. Notre-Dame is far more than the sum of money rich (and far less wealthy) people and companies are now donating. If buildings were just buildings, stuff just stuff, we wouldn't preserve anything. That's not the story or the spirit of humanity. But your Facebook friend is likely unaware of the value of Notre-Dame and angry at the unfair power system in place. That's bound to lead to such harsh and rash opinions. Don't take this too personally. She is showing care and concern for other people and their struggles which is a good thing. She just made some rush shortcuts when considering what Notre-Dame - and possibly other standing witnesses of history - truly means. The best eduation acknowledges the student's feelings and validates them before explaining.
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Post by sleepingbooty on Apr 17, 2019 6:49:51 GMT
Visit Notre-Dame before the fire with exclusive access to parts of the cathedral not open to the public with Le Monde and the Chief Architect of historical monuments (dates back to 2017) (apologies for the video being in French with no English subtitles available) (if you understand some French, it's worth listening to: the Chief Architect explains many things about the cathedral, knows all its little quirks and anecdotes and is clearly passionate about the building and its history):
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Post by sleepingbooty on Apr 17, 2019 18:51:28 GMT
Latest updates from France where this remains the most discussed topic right now:
1. The Pinault family who are offering 100 million euros for the rebuild have publicly announced they will not be writing off (up to 60ù) the donation from their taxes.
2. We are still waiting for the forensic team to be able to access the site and start searching for clues and evidence.
3. The structure is in poor shape. It's unlikely it will keep standing as it is: the rebuild will eventually have to take down almost all the stones that are still up today.
Adding this video of the firefighters explaining what they did. It's in French but if you're interested in seeing some unseen before footage, hit play. Colossus, the robot they sent in to hose down the inside when the spire collapsed, is shown working its magic as well.
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Post by workingclassdog on Apr 17, 2019 19:02:15 GMT
Latest updates from France where this remains the most discussed topic right now: 1. The Pinault family who are offering 100 million euros for the rebuild have publicly announced they will not be writing off (up to 60ù) the donation from their taxes. 2. We are still waiting for the forensic team to be able to access the site and start searching for clues and evidence. 3. The structure is in poor shape. It's unlikely it will keep standing as it is: the rebuild will eventually have to take down almost all the stones that are still up today. Adding this video of the firefighters explaining what they did. It's in French but if you're interested in seeing some unseen before footage, hit play. Colossus, the robot they sent in to hose down the inside when the spire collapsed, is shown working its magic as well. thanks so much for all the updates!! I bet they could reuse that stone somewhere else. It is what it is and whenever it is finished it will be just as beautiful.. just in a new way...
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Post by hop2 on Apr 17, 2019 19:19:34 GMT
I totally get wanting the repairs to be done in time for the Olympics but in my very unlearned mind, it seems too ambitious. Many specialists are going to be needed to carry out, in some cases, painstaking work. These specialists aren’t likely to be sitting around waiting for a call, there is every chance many of them will already currently be working on ongoing projects. It would be wonderful to have it coincide with the Olympics though and if Macron can manage to get it pulled off, great. It could be done with the technology we have now. The biggest stumbling block for speed will be decisiveness. Both upfront decision making and on going decisiveness on the job daily as things come up & are Unearthed, that would be key to that fast of a time frame. That and a great deal of luck, good weather, etc. It will be darned difficult to accomplish, but you won’t know until you try. You can’t get it done that fast if you don’t set out to attempt to.
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Post by sleepingbooty on Apr 18, 2019 17:22:15 GMT
Updates from today: 1. The hommage ceremony (to the building and the firefighters) took place today. Nothing really special or interesting. 2. Macron wants to pass a law to regulate what happens with the donations and possibly to accelerate the start of the work on the building. The French are notoriously slow in the discussion process. We like to go back and forth, argue some more until a person in power puts their foot down and pushes forward. This was also the case for the hoopla over the Buren columns at the Palais-Royal back in 1985. 3. We have the workforce and the know-how to rebuild this. Non-French folks really needn't worry. The Compagnons du Devoir apprenticeship programme is a force to reckon with that dates all the way back to the Middle Ages. Reporters have interviewed several apprentices who are all expressing the same thing: they are waiting to find out which companies are selected by the State to work on Notre-Dame so they can apply. It's a chance in a lifetime for them. Most interviewees mentioned that other countries no longer train young people for these old crafts and that suggestions that France will struggle to find the right craftsmen to do the work by foreign media is insulting to this public education tradition in France. Most of the apprentices are shipped abroad at some point during their several years of apprenticeship to help with renovations on old buildings over there. These people do not work in a the way most of us do: they are sent all over France and abroad over several years to prove their worth and hone their skills with specialist mentors. They are regrouped by guilds like in the Middle Ages and get work through these. They do not work with normal contracts (they even get housed as they arrive to work on a project). They will not need to drop other contracts to work on ND. Again, this never was a worry. This programme focuses solely on teaching traditional techniques and reaching excellency. The compagnonnage is part of UNESCO's intangible heritage of humanity. I hope this closes the discussion on whether France would have the people to do the work. We have them. It's fine. Read more about this very French tradition here. 4. The Prime Minister announced an international contest for the rebuild plans. There is talk now of foregoing this to not waste precious time. Yadda yadda. The French will French. I expect some more public arguing to happen over this. 5. The first analysis of the structure is in and it's not good. There are four main concern points, including the north tower that needs help ASAP or it's likely to fall. The triangular gable between both towers is in terrible state and leaning, likely because the angel statue is so burned it has split vertically. They have started putting up wood to consolidate as much as they can. The angle of the south tower is one of the most worrisome parts of the building at the moment: the stone has heated so much it is just falling to pieces which means that there is a major risk of the chimaeras dropping. They will let teams in to consolidate the vaulted ceiling which is in desperate need for support: scaffolding will go up, rubble will be taken out and then they will cover up the roof area to avoid rain damage. Anyhoo, a lot of urgent operations taking place at the moment and for the next few days. 6. The first mock-ups are in. Some people want to go back to the cathedral as it stood before the fire. Some want to go even further back in time and return to the way it was before the renovations of the 19th century. And some would like to modernise what's been lost like making a rooftop garden open to the public for the more extreme approach (unlikely to be approved for a historic building but hey, I'm down with it not that my opinion matters ).
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Post by workingclassdog on Apr 18, 2019 17:33:18 GMT
Thanks once again!!! Do you know what the status is of some of the stained glass? Somewhere I read that some of it wouldn't be able to be saved??
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