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Post by sleepingbooty on May 16, 2019 20:59:15 GMT
What I like about AX: I can actually allow myself to buy basic nesting dies that I usually shy away from because of the pricing. There are positives to having access to this platform but it's no miracle place. With some trial and error, you figure out what works for you, what isn't worth it. This has always been my general philosophy for buying from AliExpress - don't buy anything where you'd be upset if you lost out on the transaction. Meaning, no expensive purchases, and nothing where you can't have a reasonable chance of determining the quality based on picture/description alone. Electronics, SD cards and power banks are good examples of products where it's very easy to list one thing and deliver another, without most customers being able to verify. At the same time, some beloved Asian brands for electronics are direct vendors on AX and cheaper to buy from there than on Amazon (granted, it's the exception rather than the rule). Anyone who loves Rampow cables and usually gets them from Amazon should go to the official Rampow store on AX and save themselves around 40 to 50% of the price provided you're willing to wait a little longer to get them.
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Post by Embri on May 16, 2019 21:29:10 GMT
At the same time, some beloved Asian brands for electronics are direct vendors on AX and cheaper to buy from there than on Amazon (granted, it's the exception rather than the rule). Anyone who loves Rampow cables and usually gets them from Amazon should go to the official Rampow store on AX and save themselves around 40 to 50% of the price provided you're willing to wait a little longer to get them. Yup, the white-label brands are great - they just don't have the marketing Western brands have with Western audiences. Your average consumer may not be able to easily figure out which shops sell the genuine thing though - they'd have to know enough to hit up the official store, and not just anyplace on AE. Almost anything on Amazon that offers free international shipping from China/Hong Kong can be had on AliExpress for a significant discount.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,147
Jun 29, 2014 18:58:47 GMT
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Post by scrapnnana on May 16, 2019 21:31:11 GMT
Embri, you may be right that the Chinese companies would not raise their prices, but I still think they would if the American market disappeared, because they could. Based on the Sizzix lawsuit thread, it sounds like Sizzix has been in trouble for awhile. Thanks to their lawsuits, they are probably going to cause financial challenges for other companies, too. In spite of that, I am hopeful that the many craft companies will continue to be around for a long time.
You asked how much is fair profit? I don't have personal experience with any of the companies we have been discussing, but I do have some business experience, so I can make some educated guesses that should be fairly accurate.
For starters, unless you know the marketing and operating costs, you shouldn't assume that a company is being greedy just because you think their prices are too high.
Birch Press stacking die sets are pricey. The set that I had been interested in last year is now on sale for $72, when I remember that being their regular price last year. So let's break it down. Each of the 3 dies costs the customer $24. Are there other US die companies that sell dies that size for $24? Yes. Is it intended to gouge the customer? I seriously doubt it.
There are a lot of overhead costs in running a business, any business. Since we are talking about craft products, I'll compare it to the owner of a typical LSS. Customers have always griped a lot about the high cost of patterned paper, which can easily run about a dollar a sheet. The LSS has to sell a LOT of paper and other products to cover their operating costs, let alone enough to make a profit. They have to lease building space. They have to pay employees. They have money invested in the products they are trying to sell. They buy the products from the supplier, and they essentially charge the customer an additional 35% to 50% on top of the price they paid the supplier, and that IS considered reasonable, because they have to pay all their expenses out of that mark up, and hopefully still make a profit. Many don't. Some products don't sell, and then the LSS is often stuck with them. Their money is tied up in those unsold products, and it often results in a loss. One of my former neighbors owned the LSS that was closest to my Virginia home. My DD worked for the LSS, and so did I. For several years, I watched the LSS owner struggle to make a decent profit. She never really did, and she DID manage her finances and her store well. She lasted longer than any of the other LSS in the area. A lot of small businesses start up every year, and a lot of small businesses finally give up and go out of business every year. That is the reality here in America. There is no guarantee of success. Opening a business is a risk.
The craft industry is not all that different. They have to make a profit, or they go under. Customers see the cost of dies, stamps, papers, etc, and often think that those companies are being greedy and gouging the customer. Unless you have owned and operated a US business, or are close to someone who has, you aren't seeing the whole picture.
We all agree that we don't want to see craft companies go out of business. We like having choices. My favorite company is currently Heartfelt Creations, while another crafter may be addicted to Lawn Fawn. Many love Tim Holtz. There are all kinds of choices, even though paper crafting is not as popular as it once was. It's that competitive free market that gives us so many choices. It always benefits the consumers. We decide where to spend our dollars. No one forces us to choose one company's products over another. It's a lot harder for the companies that have to compete for our business. The reason they are willing to go through all the hassle is so that they can make a decent profit and provide for their families. If they don't make a profit, then they give up and close. If they make a profit, they can keep going. I don't know if Tim Holtz is rich or not. He has certainly been successful, and I don't know of anyone who begrudges him that success.
It is your right to buy from Canadian, UK, US, Chinese, or whatever companies you want. I think enough customers prefer to buy from the various US craft companies that they will (hopefully) survive, in spite of the companies overseas who are blatantly copying their products and selling cheaper. As long as the craft companies attend conventions, they have a good chance of attracting new customers. That is where I discovered Heartfelt Creations. I found a few other companies that I love also at convention, such as Karen Burniston. Her dies are definitely not cheap. She creates her own pop-up designs. I'm willing to pay her prices (even though I can buy different pop up designs from the Silhouette design store), but I feel she gives me good value for my money. For the $72 that one Birch Press set would cost, I can get a lot more variety from Karen Burniston, or from Heartfelt Creations, or from Spellbinders, and a while lot more from Silhouette. I had never heard of Birch Press designs till I saw them at convention, and I was blown away by how many women were spending a fortune at their booth. I spent plenty at convention, just not at the Birch Press booth. I didn't think they were gouging anyone, just that their products seemed to be rather limited use for the cost. It wasn't worth it to me.
I am picky about where I spend my money, especially at convention. Everyone has the right to do the same, whether they buy at convention, at a brick and mortar store, online, or wherever. It's your money. Spend it how and where you want.
My questions and concerns were never meant to make anyone feel belittled. If they came across that way, I apologize. It was certainly not intended. I do have strong feelings and opinions, and I am not at all surprised to find that others have equally strong, but different opinions. I appreciate all who have responded. There has been a lot of food for thought in all the comments made by everyone here.
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Post by gmcwife1 on May 16, 2019 21:33:05 GMT
I have never bought from them as I have all the basic shape dies I need and now I have a Scan and Cut.
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Post by Embri on May 17, 2019 3:24:58 GMT
Unless you have owned and operated a US business, or are close to someone who has, you aren't seeing the whole picture. I have operated my own business (quite successfully for many years, only closed because the retail location was sold for redevelopment and I didn't want to move) but it was Canadian rather than American, so I guess it doesn't count? Yes, every business has expenses - but the owner is in charge of choosing when and where to spend money. Advertising and marketing are choices. Physical retail space vs. online vs. hybrid is a choice. How many employees and how to best deploy them is a choice. How much to price your product for is a choice, your suppliers are a choice, your packaging and level of service is a choice. etc. About the only things you can't avoid are taxes and long hours! I guess what I'm trying to get at is maybe it's time for the traditional business model to go away. Clearly it's too expensive to maintain the current level of company infrastructure if even industry giants like Sizzix are struggling. All the designs crafters know and love will almost certainly live on - just in closer conjunction with the production side, instead of the marketing and distribution side, and not under brand umbrellas. I'm actually looking forward to seeing more designers, more styles that aren't forced to adhere to 'brand X ascetic'. Please don't stop discussing, I'm very much enjoying the debate (and I hope everyone else is too!) This is exactly what I never got over on SplitCoastStampers and dearly wanted - real talk, not 'lalala EVERYTHING IS WONDERFUL'. I'm surprised at how many people have plotter-cutters, for one. I didn't think they were as prevalent as they seem to be.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,147
Jun 29, 2014 18:58:47 GMT
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Post by scrapnnana on May 17, 2019 11:54:53 GMT
While there are probably some differences between the way businesses are run in the US vs. Canada, it does help that you understand basic principles of running a business. There are many that don't have a clue. I have had 3 of my own very small businesses over the years, and each of my different businesses had different challenges. It certainly doesn't make me an expert, but it did help me to understand the challenges that my LSS owner neighbor had, as well as some of the costs of doing business. Some, not all.
I can't speak for Canada, but here in the US, ridiculous government regulations often make it difficult for small businesses to even start up, let alone succeed. Some government regulations make sense, some don't. Some states are "friendlier" to businesses, while other states tax businesses to death. A lot of businesses have moved out of California to Texas in recent years for the latter reason, and California is rather grumpy about it. Texas tends to be a lot friendlier to businesses than some states. I moved to Texas from Virginia not quite 3 years ago. I had my businesses back in Virginia. While not as burdensome as California, I was shocked at how hard the local and state governments there made it for me to even start a small business. I lived there more than 30 years. In the earlier years, there were a lot of small Mom & Pop businesses. By the time I left, Mom & Pop businesses were almost non-existent there, in part because government regulations had become so burdensome. In contrast, I see Mom & Pop type businesses all over the place in Texas. It's refreshing.
I don't think all industry giants are struggling just because Sizzix is. For one thing, Sizzix is based in California, where it is harder for any business to survive. For another, the Sizzix problems are potentially based, at least to some extent, on the very choices you mentioned, or possibly one choice you did not mention: the ability to stay competitive. They may have been a bit slow to realize that the thin dies were taking over the craft market, or at least slow to find other crafters and avenues for marketing their steel rule dies, which have been a huge part of their business from the beginning. Thin dies definitely had an advantage over steel rule dies. That was fair competition. Another product came on the market that suited consumer needs better. On the other hand, I think most of us would agree that pirating someone else's designs isn't honest or fair competition. As an example, refer back to the earlier comment that Tim Holtz designs showed up on Ali Express on or before the same day they were released. Not all designs are appealing to everyone, either. Some artists appeal more to customers than others. IMO, Sizzix designs have rarely been as nice as those of their competitors.
It's entirely possible that some die manufacturers have raised their prices to try to offset perceived losses to piracy. I have no way of knowing that. It is just a guess. They may be shooting themselves in the foot if they are doing so, but it could be one reason for the increasing cost of dies. I used the term "perceived" because some crafters wouldn't be customers of certain companies in the first place. Again, I use the Birch Press stacking dies as an example. Many of us take one look and say, "No way am I buying those die sets. They are out of my price range." Those are customers that Birch Press just isn't going to win over. Period. I haven't really looked to see if Birch Press sells other products. Their stacking dies are clever, but if they put all their eggs in one basket, and customers find other options, Birch Press may eventually run out of enough customers who do buy their dies. It's that competition factor.
I don't agree that the current business model needs to "go away." It still works well for a lot of people, even if it does not work for everyone. The beauty of the current (free market) business model is that all transactions are voluntary. I can choose to support the companies that I prefer. No one will force me to buy Sizzix or Birch Press products. I can happily buy from any company that provides what I want. I can also choose to buy from the UK, or from China, if they offer something that I can't get in the US.
That leads to the one very unpredictable element that you left out of your business model: that of the individual consumer.
While some consumers will base their purchase choices solely or mainly on cost, for some there are other important factors that affect their choice. The comments in this thread are a good example. Some don't want to wait for the extra shipping time from China. Some want to support local businesses. Some prefer the excellent customer service at a particular store, or the quality of the product sold by one manufacturer vs. another (dies you have to cut apart vs. dies that are higher quality, or photo polymer stamps vs. acrylic). Here in the US, I have seen businesses try to cut costs by lowering quality. It rarely ends well. There was a certain restaurant chain that was very popular. Then they changed the supplier of their ingredients, and the result just didn't taste as good. The change may have been because they were already struggling, but their business tanked rapidly after that. I would have preferred to pay a higher price for their food than have the quality lowered.
Despite the challenges, many businesses manage to keep going. Some adapt, some don't. The competition often makes it hard for small businesses, but that same competition tends to encourage new inventions and new products, which benefits the customer. The first plotter cutter available to American crafters was a whopping $700. Not only has the price come way down, but there are many different options now as well. You can buy a Cricut, a Silhouette, a Scan N Cut, or another machine. The first manual die cut machine available to home crafters was the heavy red Sizzix with the handle you pull down. Then came the Cuttlebug. It was lightweight, more portable, and I preferred it to my red Sizzix. Now we have more affordable motorized cutters. I just bought a Gemini, and it cuts my thin dies beautifully without straining my shoulder or wrist. When the Tim Holtz Vagabond first came out, it was around $250. The LSS had one. I recently paid $130 for the Gemini Junior. It takes up less space, and it's not as heavy.
When I was a business owner, competition was challenging, but part of doing business. As a customer, I love competition. It benefits the customer far more than anyone else.
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 17, 2019 17:14:42 GMT
It's entirely possible that some die manufacturers have raised their prices to try to offset perceived losses to piracy. Tale as old as time (to quote that Disney song). It's really a matter of being in a global capitalist society: whatever you offer and that has some success - even if limited within a nice market - will be copied and offered at a lower price or for free. The same matter has been at the heart of the anti-piracy laws for music, TV series and films. But the core issue that is often ignored is that a great part of those acquiring free or cheap copies would not have made the full-price purchase otherwise. While I understand that this may be a hard pill to swallow for the original creators, the reality is that cheap/free copies do not represent the actual net loss for the original creators. This simple fact does not magically make the problem disappear or solve the matter but it does shine light on the fact that this type of underground/black market democratisation is not a reflection of greed or lack of desire to support original creators/home-based businesses. It's a simple accordion effect wherein some segments of the population get access to something otherwise out of their reach. There are a lot of shades of grey in between the moral dichotomy of dividing up the world/buyers into the good "white" ones and the "black" baddies. It's not that simple and a capitalist society without this type of market is simply inconceivable. I remember all the articles about torrenting killing the music industry but the industry is doing well. They did readjust their models toward making the bulk of their money through touring and live performances rather than discs (physical or digital) as well as subscription plans. Netflix, Spotify and the likes are simply a monetised expansion on the direct access to music and film that the internet provided first through piracy. For a more traditional industry like paper products, there are different strategies to adopt. For companies like Birch Press whose prices have always been in the upper echelon, developping a line of cheaper products would've allowed access for the consumers feeling priced out. Whether they were a little too late to the game with their smaller shapes, I don't know. But they're just one company amongst many others. What I do know is that investing in long-lasting pieces will remain central to buyers in these economically and ecologically trying times. The more your offer reflects this, the better off you'll be in the long run. Gone are the days of carefree spending in scrapbooking. The craft's peak is well behind us. It's time to take into account changing mentalities and the impact on spending budgets. I'd rather buy a diversified set of critters from a company I love than too themed products for cardmaking. Again, these are changes in the finances and mindset of the customers that some businesses will manage to evolve with, some won't. Anyhoo, interesting discussion happening here and I'm glad to see that nobody's getting upset or refusing to listen. I'm not a business owner myself nor do my socio-political values necessarily align with everyone else's but I hope the little bit of information I can bring can perhaps help take some stigma off piracy in general.
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Post by Embri on May 17, 2019 21:10:18 GMT
I can't speak for Canada, but here in the US, ridiculous government regulations often make it difficult for small businesses to even start up, let alone succeed. I would count Canada (my province at least) as quite friendly to small business / start-ups. We don't have to jump through quite as many legal hoops nor the level of taxes (good lord, the level of taxes one of my former employers had to pay on his small business was ri donculous!) For another, the Sizzix problems are potentially based, at least to some extent, on the very choices you mentioned, or possibly one choice you did not mention: the ability to stay competitive. Absolutely. I'd say it's quite obvious Sizzix hasn't been behind the eight ball for a long time at this point. They've been trying to play catch-up and that's a bad place to be when you're in a heavily trend-based industry. Sizzix designs have rarely been as nice as those of their competitors. I think one of Sizzix's problems is that they lack brand identity. If I say 'Lawn Fawn' or 'Tim Holtz', most crafters immediately have a style come to mind. Sizzix... doesn't really have that. At best I can sum their stuff up with 'functional-ish'. Here in the US, I have seen businesses try to cut costs by lowering quality. It rarely ends well. There's always a market for inexpensive, but it's by far not the only market. Fast, Cheap, Good. Pick two, as the saying goes. All three is a downright unicorn and don't expect it to be sustainable. Being out of touch with your customer base (what they value in your business) is a serious concern when it happens. By downgrading quality I'd expect that the Western companies threw away one of the major reasons their customer base was buying from them. Penny wise, pound foolish? As a customer, I love competition. It benefits the customer far more than anyone else. Can't disagree with that! The more options the merrier, when the free market works, it works beautifully. I still think that crafting companies need to find a better model than what they're currently using, but I'm also no expert, and it's easy to armchair-umpire. Especially because we don't have all the information. This simple fact does not magically make the problem disappear or solve the matter but it does shine light on the fact that this type of underground/black market democratisation is not a reflection of greed or lack of desire to support original creators/home-based businesses. It's a simple accordion effect wherein some segments of the population get access to something otherwise out of their reach. This is an important point. If I had unlimited disposable income, would I still shop AliExpress? Yes, but probably far less - I'd still buy things that aren't otherwise available such as size variants, unique and out of stock/retired designs. At that point it'd be worth spending extra for that additional 5% quality and significantly less hassle, uncertainty and delay. If the Chinese dies didn't exist, and I had my current level of income, would I be into die cutting? Emphatic NO; I wouldn't even have considered getting started. In that sense, since my Western purchases are non-zero, they've actually made more sales (from me at least) because the unbranded dies exist. The Chinese die industry isn't going away; everyone else is going to have to adapt to its existence if they haven't already.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,147
Jun 29, 2014 18:58:47 GMT
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Post by scrapnnana on May 17, 2019 21:27:28 GMT
All of this has been food for thought. It's been an interesting discussion, thanks.
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Post by chaosisapony on May 19, 2019 3:43:16 GMT
I ordered once, a 4x6 set of clear stamps. I actually would have preferred to get them from scrapbook.com or similar but it was a set I'd never seen anything close to before. My only complaint was the checkout/account process seemed complicated. Of course, it took AGES for the stamps to come in and by the time they got here I was over the project I wanted them for and have never used them. For $2 though, it's a cute set and I would order again.
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Post by scrappinheather on May 19, 2019 16:40:38 GMT
I have bought stuff on ALI and often it is the wrong size or the quality is pot and I often toss it and buy the real thing. I buy 99% of my stuff from local stores online and I try to find it on sale. Usually when I buy from Ali I am disappointed in the quality. It’s also usually something I would make 1-2 cards from not things I want to be a staple. I’ve quit buying from them.
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Post by lisacharlotte on May 19, 2019 17:27:46 GMT
Piracy should be stigmatized. It’s theft. Are we now okay with that because people want things they can’t afford?
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Post by Embri on May 19, 2019 18:40:30 GMT
Piracy should be stigmatized. It’s theft. Are we now okay with that because people want things they can’t afford? Just because one country makes a law, doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow it. AliExpress has plenty of non-bootleg designs. Also, if people are pirating a product, it's either been made too expensive, difficult or inconvenient for them to buy the genuine article and someone else has stepped up to fill unmet consumer demand. Isn't that the point of a true free market?
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Post by riversong1963 on May 20, 2019 1:16:53 GMT
Piracy is never OK, and it is not the point of a free market. It isn't right to buy and sell pirated merchandise just because the original is too expensive for you to buy. Even if the prices seem unfair, stealing someone else's ideas and designs is wrong. Always.
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Post by Embri on May 20, 2019 4:36:41 GMT
Piracy is never OK, and it is not the point of a free market. It isn't right to buy and sell pirated merchandise just because the original is too expensive for you to buy. Even if the prices seem unfair, stealing someone else's ideas and designs is wrong. Always. You're certainly entitled to feel whatever way you do.
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 20, 2019 10:36:41 GMT
Glad to see some one-line replies really took into account those who tried to explain with more words and more arguments why the discussion is not so simple. /s I mentioned taking away some stigma and being careful with dichotomous black and white stances with moral high ground regarding piracy in general but hey, 't was for nought. Don't listen to me, listen to the academics who actually study these matters such as in this accessible to all study report (there are more to look at if you have access to JSTOR or any other academic digi library). Like it or not, piracy has some benefits which the industries don't like to admit to publicly but are very well aware of, be it trial for potential future customers or word of mouth publicity. Saying "this is right, this is wrong" is ignoring the more complex realities that underly the greater discussion (and closing the door to said discussion in which case, let's not have the thread and just a "yes" or "no" poll).
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Post by riversong1963 on May 20, 2019 11:07:07 GMT
Well, I'm moving on from this discussion, since it is only a source of irritation for me now. You can try to justify pirating as much as you like, but I will never be convinced that it is ever OK. You can call me closed-minded all you like, but I know morally (and legally) that it's wrong. It isn't my opinion. It's the law.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,147
Jun 29, 2014 18:58:47 GMT
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Post by scrapnnana on May 20, 2019 11:07:29 GMT
Piracy is never OK, and it is not the point of a free market. It isn't right to buy and sell pirated merchandise just because the original is too expensive for you to buy. Even if the prices seem unfair, stealing someone else's ideas and designs is wrong. Always. I agree. That's why I wanted to know if Ali Express designs were always pirated designs. Unfortunately, an even more recent experience has taught me that even though a die design looks unique, it may still be pirated. I have decided that I will stick to buying from companies and/or sellers that I know. Whether or not we agree on this issue, I really don't want to see this thread turn ugly. It's clear to me that there may be aspects I don't fully understand in all of this.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on May 20, 2019 16:04:29 GMT
I think one of Sizzix's problems is that they lack brand identity. If I say 'Lawn Fawn' or 'Tim Holtz', most crafters immediately have a style come to mind. Sizzix... doesn't really have that. At best I can sum their stuff up with 'functional-ish'. ^^^ yes, I definitely agree with this. I couldn't even tell you who designs for Sizzix; I just know that's the section of the craft store where I can find the Tim Holtz dies. I had no idea that Sizzix was in any sort of business trouble, at all, either. I do know the only place I ever saw the thick steel-rule dies was in my LSS where they had the huge cutters and sets of alphas, etc. that people could use during crops, but those were all pre-Big Shot, Cuttlebug, etc. and once people could buy their own die-cutting machines and thin dies, I don't think I saw the LSS ever purchase a new steel-rule die. Their inventory of dies was the same, old, 'tired-looking' paper doll templates, bubble alphas, etc. that had been there since sometime in the mid-2000s. And from a personal point of view, I guess I just don't understand the 'buy (only)American' mindset, in one sense. If the American companies don't have what you want, or have it at the price point you can afford, and if you don't mind waiting for shipping, then to me, the company that carries what I want to buy takes precedence. If Sizzix (or any company) is having issues because they aren't selling what their customers will buy, I don't see how that can be the fault of any other company. I personally don't see the problem with having a global market, either, in a general sense. American companies produce things that get exported to other countries; companies that are headquartered in other countries produce things that we buy here. It's a circle.
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Post by gale w on May 21, 2019 14:20:46 GMT
I've never bought from them and don't intend to buy any craft supplies for the reasons posted but I might check out those cables. They sound legit.
Very interesting discussion here.
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Post by 0612 on May 22, 2019 3:38:28 GMT
I have ordered them for over two years and have never had a problem. Most dies and stamps I gotten I have been happy with.
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Post by refugeepea on May 24, 2019 0:21:03 GMT
Piracy should be stigmatized. It’s theft. Are we now okay with that because people want things they can’t afford? I have ordered some dies from China through Amazon, but I guess my issues is I would have no idea if I was buying a pirated item. I've always been a big box, on clearance, buy whatever I like type of scrapper. There are a few paper manufacturers that I would probably recognize on Ali, but I hardly see any paper; just a few 6x6 pads. They all looked new to me.
I follow very little stamp manufacturers and no metal die companies because most seem geared towards card makers. I'm a very visual person and when all I see is card examples of their products, it can be hard to see how it would translate into a scrapbook page. If I am making cards, I go to pinterest and look at the images and rarely click on the link to see what exact items are used. I think of what I already own and use that instead. I found a Sticko sticker book at Walmart that had food items that reminded me of the Doodlebug So Punny collection. It was under $3.00 vs over $5.00 for the diecuts. I'm also more of a simple stamper who prefers words and basic images. No coloring, although I kind of want to give it a try! I don't need the sloth on a cactus stamp. The dies I bought did not seem unique; nested tags, clouds, and Halloween shapes.
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