Deleted
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Apr 23, 2024 16:35:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 15:14:35 GMT
We're no further forward though. They've also voted against a general election.Jeremy Corbyn said “Let the Bill pass and have Royal Assent and then we can have a general election.” now that he's got the no deal through he's obviously changed his mind by the number of vote that voted against having a General Election. BJ will speak directly to the public later today, setting out the vital choice that faces our country”, Downing Street said. A spokesman said: “ He will argue that Jeremy Corbyn’s Surrender Bill will force the Prime Minister to go to Brussels and surrender to any demands they make. This would in essence overturn the biggest democratic vote in our history – the 2016 referendum“The PM will not do this. “It is clear the only action is to go back to the people and give them the opportunity to decide what they want: Boris to go to Brussels and get a deal, or leave without one on October 31 or Jeremy Corbyn arriving in Brussels with his surrender bill begging for more delay, more dither and accepting whatever terms Brussels imposes over our nation.” The spokesman added: “For Jeremy Corbyn to continue to avoid an election would be a cowardly insult to democracy.” I personally think that a general election isn't going to solve it because I'm pretty certain we would end up with a hung parliament and we would be back to square one. Or you may not. You could end up with the majority because polls are indicating people are totally fed up with this. They want it over. A general election might be exactly what you need at this point because it’ll be a proxy to a second referendum. Once and for all, now fully cognizant of all the pros and cons, people will decide if they want Brexit or not with who they vote for. I know your stance which is people have already voted for Brexit and it’s up to the MPs to deliver. But parliament keeps on undermining gov’t (same as when May was PM), and no one’s budging so you need something to settle all this. Otherwise, you’ll just get a retread of the last three years. And you know Boris will ignore Benn’s possible legislation, right? Can you see him giving a letter to Brussels seeking an extension? That’s why Gove didn’t answer when asked if Boris will abide by it. His reply was they’ll have to see what’s in it. Boris said two days ago under no circumstances will he do so. I don’t know what your rules are, but I would assume your courts will end up having to decide. This is another reason why a general election is needed; either Boris gets the mandate he needs now that he’s lost his majority OR Brexit is over. One way or the other, your parliament and your country are forced to move on. If I had been part of the process, I would have voted to remain. But regardless, Dotty, I understand what you are feeling firsthand. I really do. On two occasions in modern history, US Democrats’ votes have been neutralized by our Electoral College. That’s how we ended up with Bush and Trump. When Obama was president, the will of the people and the president’s statutory right were subverted by McConnell in denying the Supreme Court seat to Garland. So, I know and fully understand your frustration. Boy, do I know. I'm not against a General Election, in fact I hope there will be one. What I am concerned about is that we won't be any further forward as I have this feeling that it will end in a hung parliament with the Lib Dems taking up the " utterly cheese off voters" from both the Conservatives and Labour. Maybe that is what the remain brigade want! We'll then be back to square one a. because the Lib Dems are anti Brexit anyhow so they won't agree to do anything and B. a hung parliament didn't work out that well when he had one the last time with David Cameron and Nick Clegg in charge. No, I don't think Boris will hand that letter over. Do you know, I wouldn't mind any of them making their feelings known about anything that was put in that " deal" IF they had an alternative suggestion but not one of them have come up with anything different, not one of them. So they keep saying no to everything with no suggestion or solution. You then have to come to the conclusion that their end game is purely to reverse the results of the referendum and in turn dismiss the wishes of the people they represent and they want everyone to believe they're protecting democracy!
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Deleted
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Apr 23, 2024 16:35:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 15:22:46 GMT
May, the Tories and the govt negotiated for YEARS to come up w/a deal. The problem isn't the deal, which May, the Tories and the govt shepherded through the process, it's that the Tories have always been split on Brexit, as have Labour. The problem is the UK was sold a bill of goods which bears NO resemblance to the reality of leaving the EU after 20 years of relationships and business deals and business processes. I disagree. We were not sold a bill that had no reality. The stayers were equally as vocal during the campaign leading up to the vote as much as the leavers were. To suggest that the leavers didn't know what it meant to leave is disingenuous. If people couldn't be bothered to look for themselves and check the details of why they were voting the way they did, that is on them and not on the results of the referendum.There was plenty of information out there if they cared to read it. You can't disregard the votes of the majority because one doesn't like the results. The deal that is under negotiation is not the end product on everything of how we deal with the EU in the future. It's a negotiated deal of what happens during the transition period and only some of it will be carried over to the time after we leave. Trade is one of the things that we can't negotiate until after we leave. Harkening back to 3 years ago when the people were told everything would be perfect and easy and voted accordingly is not helpful. Yes, they voted the way they voted based on nothing. Based on being told they'd invoke Article 50, negotiate a transition and then ultimately do bilateral deals that would be sunshine and roses w/millions pouring into the NHS on a daily basis. NONE OF THAT HAS COME TO PASS. No transition deal and certainly nowhere close to seeing what the ultimate bilaterals will look like. That's why so many are calling for a new referendum (which I don't think will happen). Because a democracy in which people can't change their minds based on new evidence is not a democracy.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Sept 5, 2019 15:31:02 GMT
Or you may not. You could end up with the majority because polls are indicating people are totally fed up with this. They want it over. A general election might be exactly what you need at this point because it’ll be a proxy to a second referendum. Once and for all, now fully cognizant of all the pros and cons, people will decide if they want Brexit or not with who they vote for. I know your stance which is people have already voted for Brexit and it’s up to the MPs to deliver. But parliament keeps on undermining gov’t (same as when May was PM), and no one’s budging so you need something to settle all this. Otherwise, you’ll just get a retread of the last three years. And you know Boris will ignore Benn’s possible legislation, right? Can you see him giving a letter to Brussels seeking an extension? That’s why Gove didn’t answer when asked if Boris will abide by it. His reply was they’ll have to see what’s in it. Boris said two days ago under no circumstances will he do so. I don’t know what your rules are, but I would assume your courts will end up having to decide. This is another reason why a general election is needed; either Boris gets the mandate he needs now that he’s lost his majority OR Brexit is over. One way or the other, your parliament and your country are forced to move on. If I had been part of the process, I would have voted to remain. But regardless, Dotty, I understand what you are feeling firsthand. I really do. On two occasions in modern history, US Democrats’ votes have been neutralized by our Electoral College. That’s how we ended up with Bush and Trump. When Obama was president, the will of the people and the president’s statutory right were subverted by McConnell in denying the Supreme Court seat to Garland. So, I know and fully understand your frustration. Boy, do I know. I'm not against a General Election, in fact I hope there will be one. What I am concerned about is that we won't be any further forward as I have this feeling that it will end in a hung parliament with the Lib Dems taking up the " utterly cheese off voters" from both the Conservatives and Labour. Maybe that is what the remain brigade want! We'll then be back to square one a. because the Lib Dems are anti Brexit anyhow so they won't agree to do anything and B. a hung parliament didn't work out that well when he had one the last time with David Cameron and Nick Clegg in charge. No, I don't think Boris will hand that letter over. Do you know, I wouldn't mind any of them making their feelings known about anything that was put in that " deal" IF they had an alternative suggestion but not one of them have come up with anything different, not one of them. So they keep saying no to everything with no suggestion or solution. You then have to come to the conclusion that their end game is purely to reverse the results of the referendum and in turn dismiss the wishes of the people they represent and they want everyone to believe they're protecting democracy! Of course their endgame is to remain. Labour…well, it’s obvious to everyone Corbyn is straddling both sides because his party is split, I think 30%+ are remainers. Boris has no other option left except to bring down his own gov’t and force a general election. When I read the news this morning, it’s being reported that Jacob Rees-Mogg will be re-tabling the motion for a general election on Monday after Benn’s bill is passed. There are no other options, regardless. Even if Boris, say, presents a brief bill for a general election that only requires a straight majority, not 2/3, what will stop Labour / SNP / Lib Dems from tacking an amendment stating no GE until November? Everyone is playing brinkmanship right now.
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Post by gar on Sept 5, 2019 16:19:10 GMT
Or you may not. You could end up with the majority because polls are indicating people are totally fed up with this. They want it over. A general election might be exactly what you need at this point because it’ll be a proxy to a second referendum. Once and for all, now fully cognizant of all the pros and cons, people will decide if they want Brexit or not with who they vote for. I know your stance which is people have already voted for Brexit and it’s up to the MPs to deliver. But parliament keeps on undermining gov’t (same as when May was PM), and no one’s budging so you need something to settle all this. Otherwise, you’ll just get a retread of the last three years. And you know Boris will ignore Benn’s possible legislation, right? Can you see him giving a letter to Brussels seeking an extension? That’s why Gove didn’t answer when asked if Boris will abide by it. His reply was they’ll have to see what’s in it. Boris said two days ago under no circumstances will he do so. I don’t know what your rules are, but I would assume your courts will end up having to decide. This is another reason why a general election is needed; either Boris gets the mandate he needs now that he’s lost his majority OR Brexit is over. One way or the other, your parliament and your country are forced to move on. If I had been part of the process, I would have voted to remain. But regardless, Dotty, I understand what you are feeling firsthand. I really do. On two occasions in modern history, US Democrats’ votes have been neutralized by our Electoral College. That’s how we ended up with Bush and Trump. When Obama was president, the will of the people and the president’s statutory right were subverted by McConnell in denying the Supreme Court seat to Garland. So, I know and fully understand your frustration. Boy, do I know. I'm not against a General Election, in fact I hope there will be one. What I am concerned about is that we won't be any further forward as I have this feeling that it will end in a hung parliament with the Lib Dems taking up the " utterly cheese off voters" from both the Conservatives and Labour. Maybe that is what the remain brigade want! We'll then be back to square one a. because the Lib Dems are anti Brexit anyhow so they won't agree to do anything and B. a hung parliament didn't work out that well when he had one the last time with David Cameron and Nick Clegg in charge. No, I don't think Boris will hand that letter over. Do you know, I wouldn't mind any of them making their feelings known about anything that was put in that " deal" IF they had an alternative suggestion but not one of them have come up with anything different, not one of them. So they keep saying no to everything with no suggestion or solution. You then have to come to the conclusion that their end game is purely to reverse the results of the referendum and in turn dismiss the wishes of the people they represent and they want everyone to believe they're protecting democracy! Do we have to keep referring to those who voted differently as ‘the...brigade’? I do believe in democracy but I also believe that the Brexit idea was sold on too many lies and the result was not an accurate representation of how some people would have voted had they had all the facts. But I’m on holiday so I’m not going to be doing much arguing 🙂
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Post by lucyg on Sept 5, 2019 16:23:29 GMT
I'm not against a General Election, in fact I hope there will be one. What I am concerned about is that we won't be any further forward as I have this feeling that it will end in a hung parliament with the Lib Dems taking up the " utterly cheese off voters" from both the Conservatives and Labour. Maybe that is what the remain brigade want! We'll then be back to square one a. because the Lib Dems are anti Brexit anyhow so they won't agree to do anything and B. a hung parliament didn't work out that well when he had one the last time with David Cameron and Nick Clegg in charge. No, I don't think Boris will hand that letter over. Do you know, I wouldn't mind any of them making their feelings known about anything that was put in that " deal" IF they had an alternative suggestion but not one of them have come up with anything different, not one of them. So they keep saying no to everything with no suggestion or solution. You then have to come to the conclusion that their end game is purely to reverse the results of the referendum and in turn dismiss the wishes of the people they represent and they want everyone to believe they're protecting democracy! Do we have to keep referring to those who voted differently as ‘the...brigade’? I do believe in democracy but I also believe that the Brexit idea was sold on too many lies and the result was not an accurate representation of how some people would have voted had they had all the facts. But I’m on holiday so I’m not going to be doing much arguing 🙂 I read (is it true?) that Putin meddled as much in the Brexit election as he did in our 2016 election. If so, then your “democratic” election results are about as true a representation of your majority’s real wishes as ours were.
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Deleted
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Apr 23, 2024 16:35:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 17:48:31 GMT
Do we have to keep referring to those who voted differently as ‘the...brigade’? I do believe in democracy but I also believe that the Brexit idea was sold on too many lies and the result was not an accurate representation of how some people would have voted had they had all the facts. But I’m on holiday so I’m not going to be doing much arguing 🙂 I read (is it true?) that Putin meddled as much in the Brexit election as he did in our 2016 election. If so, then your “democratic” election results are about as true a representation of your majority’s real wishes as ours were. No doubt they've tried.I'd be surprised if they hadn't. I did read a report about an investigation at one time. France & Germany tackled the same problem but the conclusion was here that there was so evidence that they were successful here. I don't think you can compare our results to yours though as we have a different system here. The majority lost the election in the US because of the Electoral college. We don't have that system here. The majority of votes wins.
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,971
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Sept 6, 2019 1:44:40 GMT
But that doesn't speak to targeted misinformation campaigns, meddling in social media, creating false groups and the like. I now assume that every other comment I read on news and social media sites is a Russian troll or bot or by someone radicalized by interacting too long with Russian trolls and bots. Researchers have proved that whole movements (Black Voters for Bernie or Real Patriots Love America) scheduled rallies and organized meetups through FB but were completely conceived of and created by Russia. If there is social strife and disagreement, you can bet that Russia will capitalize on it to sow more strife, division and chaos. I think there is no way to credibly argue that didn't happen prior to the Brexit vote and it's probably still happening right now.
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Post by lucyg on Sept 6, 2019 1:57:12 GMT
I read (is it true?) that Putin meddled as much in the Brexit election as he did in our 2016 election. If so, then your “democratic” election results are about as true a representation of your majority’s real wishes as ours were. No doubt they've tried.I'd be surprised if they hadn't. I did read a report about an investigation at one time. France & Germany tackled the same problem but the conclusion was here that there was so evidence that they were successful here. I don't think you can compare our results to yours though as we have a different system here. The majority lost the election in the US because of the Electoral college. We don't have that system here. The majority of votes wins. It doesn’t matter that we don’t have the direct vote. Candidates target their campaigns to winning the Electoral College, not the popular vote. What matters is that Russia influenced voters with their targeted political attacks, and also may or may not have managed to interfere with actual voting. It affects (can affect) the outcome, Electoral College or not.
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Deleted
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Apr 23, 2024 16:35:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2019 20:50:29 GMT
Boris, your move.
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Post by gar on Sept 6, 2019 21:22:19 GMT
It isn’t law yet - quite - it still need royal assent but it will be soon. www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49609677I’ll be honest and say I’m really having to concentrate to keep up now!!😉
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Deleted
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Apr 23, 2024 16:35:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2019 21:57:58 GMT
It isn’t law yet - quite - it still need royal assent but it will be soon. www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49609677I’ll be honest and say I’m really having to concentrate to keep up now!!😉 Yeah, I'm assuming HRM (HRH?) will assent. So, he's up.
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Post by hop2 on Sept 6, 2019 22:13:45 GMT
Or you may not. You could end up with the majority because polls are indicating people are totally fed up with this. They want it over. A general election might be exactly what you need at this point because it’ll be a proxy to a second referendum. Once and for all, now fully cognizant of all the pros and cons, people will decide if they want Brexit or not with who they vote for. I know your stance which is people have already voted for Brexit and it’s up to the MPs to deliver. But parliament keeps on undermining gov’t (same as when May was PM), and no one’s budging so you need something to settle all this. Otherwise, you’ll just get a retread of the last three years. And you know Boris will ignore Benn’s possible legislation, right? Can you see him giving a letter to Brussels seeking an extension? That’s why Gove didn’t answer when asked if Boris will abide by it. His reply was they’ll have to see what’s in it. Boris said two days ago under no circumstances will he do so. I don’t know what your rules are, but I would assume your courts will end up having to decide. This is another reason why a general election is needed; either Boris gets the mandate he needs now that he’s lost his majority OR Brexit is over. One way or the other, your parliament and your country are forced to move on. If I had been part of the process, I would have voted to remain. But regardless, Dotty, I understand what you are feeling firsthand. I really do. On two occasions in modern history, US Democrats’ votes have been neutralized by our Electoral College. That’s how we ended up with Bush and Trump. When Obama was president, the will of the people and the president’s statutory right were subverted by McConnell in denying the Supreme Court seat to Garland. So, I know and fully understand your frustration. Boy, do I know. I'm not against a General Election, in fact I hope there will be one. What I am concerned about is that we won't be any further forward as I have this feeling that it will end in a hung parliament with the Lib Dems taking up the " utterly cheese off voters" from both the Conservatives and Labour. Maybe that is what the remain brigade want! We'll then be back to square one a. because the Lib Dems are anti Brexit anyhow so they won't agree to do anything and B. a hung parliament didn't work out that well when he had one the last time with David Cameron and Nick Clegg in charge. No, I don't think Boris will hand that letter over. Do you know, I wouldn't mind any of them making their feelings known about anything that was put in that " deal" IF they had an alternative suggestion but not one of them have come up with anything different, not one of them. So they keep saying no to everything with no suggestion or solution. You then have to come to the conclusion that their end game is purely to reverse the results of the referendum and in turn dismiss the wishes of the people they represent and they want everyone to believe they're protecting democracy! Madmen as with the ACA here. R: “The ACA is the devil we must be rid if it!” The people: “ what should we do then?” R: < crickets > Not one idea if their own. 2 years full control & nothing. Well then maybe shut up 🙄 There’s some solace to know it’s not just us
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Post by hop2 on Sept 6, 2019 22:17:34 GMT
Do we have to keep referring to those who voted differently as ‘the...brigade’? I do believe in democracy but I also believe that the Brexit idea was sold on too many lies and the result was not an accurate representation of how some people would have voted had they had all the facts. But I’m on holiday so I’m not going to be doing much arguing 🙂 I read (is it true?) that Putin meddled as much in the Brexit election as he did in our 2016 election. If so, then your “democratic” election results are about as true a representation of your majority’s real wishes as ours were. I read that too. But can’t remember where
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Post by gar on Sept 6, 2019 22:18:52 GMT
It isn’t law yet - quite - it still need royal assent but it will be soon. www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49609677I’ll be honest and say I’m really having to concentrate to keep up now!!😉 Yeah, I'm assuming HRM (HRH?) will assent. So, he's up. HRH, yes 🙂
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Post by lucyg on Sept 6, 2019 22:19:57 GMT
I read (is it true?) that Putin meddled as much in the Brexit election as he did in our 2016 election. If so, then your “democratic” election results are about as true a representation of your majority’s real wishes as ours were. I read that too. But can’t remember where Probably here. That’s what I was thinking.
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Post by gar on Sept 6, 2019 22:21:47 GMT
I read (is it true?) that Putin meddled as much in the Brexit election as he did in our 2016 election. If so, then your “democratic” election results are about as true a representation of your majority’s real wishes as ours were. I read that too. But can’t remember where I think it was in Putin’s interest to promote Brexit and i’m sure there was involvement but I don’ think it’s been shown to what degree.
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Post by gar on Sept 6, 2019 22:22:54 GMT
I read that too. But can’t remember where Probably here. That’s what I was thinking. There are quite a few articles to read if you have a quick google but I haven’t read any of them in depth.
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Post by hop2 on Sept 6, 2019 22:25:54 GMT
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Post by lucyg on Sept 7, 2019 3:09:59 GMT
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Deleted
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Apr 23, 2024 16:35:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2019 15:00:17 GMT
This is the response to a recent suggestion that the government carry out a " Mueller style"investigation because it's alleged that some of the ones that were prosecuted under the US investigation met some of the pro Brexit people when they were in London. I'm not sure who made the suggestion, I think it was a petition but it's obvious that they don't know how investigations of this sort are carried out otherwise they would not have requested the government do so when they have no authority over such a matter. Our Electoral Commission is pretty robust and I have no doubt that the Security Services have long been aware of the threat well before the referendum and are no doubt actively and constantly monitoring it.
We have not seen evidence of successful interference in UK democratic processes, including in the 2016 referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union or the 2017 general election. It is absolutely unacceptable for any nation to interfere in the democratic processes of another country, and we take any allegations of interference in UK democratic processes by a foreign government extremely seriously.
That is why the Government is committed to ensuring the security and integrity of our democratic processes and has taken steps to ensure that there is a coordinated structure across all relevant UK authorities to defend against hostile foreign interference in British politics from any state.
In the UK, the police and Security Services are independent of Ministers and the Electoral Commission is independent of Government. This means that the UK Government does not, and cannot, direct these organisations to investigate particular allegations. These organisations take a professional view of the necessity and proportionality of using their investigative powers. Investigations by the Electoral Commission are a clear demonstration of the system working as it should. If offences are alleged, it is right that they are investigated by the appropriate agencies.
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Deleted
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Apr 23, 2024 16:35:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2019 23:03:06 GMT
It's all a game to men like Boris & Trump. A game called, "how do I use the rules to subvert the intent of the laws and fuck w/the laws to get my way." And people wonder why laws have to be thousands of pages long. It's because of assholes like Boris & Trump who will use any means necessary to get what they want w/o having to be a "pansy" and work cooperatively w/others. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-eu-legal-prison-no-deal-brussels-latest-a9095976.html"Boris Johnson is threatening to sabotage the EU to make it cave in on a Brexit deal – or reject MPs’ plan to stop the UK crashing out of the bloc. In a dramatic escalation of its battle with Brussels, Downing Street believes it has devised a way out of the crisis to make the EU no longer “legally constituted”, paralysing its decision-making. The extraordinary plan would see the UK refuse to appoint a commissioner, putting the EU in breach of its own legal duty for all 28 member states to be represented on its executive branch.... David Lidington, Theresa May’s de-facto deputy, sacked by her successor, warned of a “really dangerous precedent” that would bolster the rise of authoritarian leaders across the globe. Inside Politics newsletter The latest news on Brexit, politics and beyond direct to your inbox Register with your social account or click here to log in I would like to receive updates on politics every morning by email “It is very important, at a time when, around the world, we are seeing people in other countries holding up alternatives to rule of law and democratic government, that British governments do always demonstrate that they comply with the law,” he said. Michael Heseltine, the Tory grandee and supporter of the People’s Vote campaign, told The Independent: “It is absolutely extraordinary that a Conservative prime minister needs to be reminded by a colleague that the British government should follow the rule of law and not act in a way which emboldens dictators and strong-arm populist leaders to undermine democracy.” Jeremy Corbyn said: “It’s a chilling message for people in our country and a dangerous example to would-be autocrats and hard-right leaders across the world.” And Jo Swinson, the Liberal Democrat leader, said: “Boris Johnson’s actions show a fundamental disregard for democracy. He is simultaneously horrifying our allies and delighting right-wing populist leaders around the world.” However, No 10 rejects the “false choice” between resigning or law-breaking, placing its faith in the new aggressive stance with Brussels to allow him to escape either fate. Article 17 of the Treaty on European Union means the EU will “not be legally constituted on 1 November” – the date the new European Commission takes office – without a UK commissioner, it says. Brussels could try to reduce the number of commissioners from 28, one for each state, but the UK would have a veto which it would use unless the EU bent to its will."
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Sept 8, 2019 23:59:19 GMT
It's all a game to men like Boris & Trump. A game called, "how do I use the rules to subvert the intent of the laws and fuck w/the laws to get my way." And people wonder why laws have to be thousands of pages long. It's because of assholes like Boris & Trump who will use any means necessary to get what they want w/o having to be a "pansy" and work cooperatively w/others. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-eu-legal-prison-no-deal-brussels-latest-a9095976.html"Boris Johnson is threatening to sabotage the EU to make it cave in on a Brexit deal – or reject MPs’ plan to stop the UK crashing out of the bloc. In a dramatic escalation of its battle with Brussels, Downing Street believes it has devised a way out of the crisis to make the EU no longer “legally constituted”, paralysing its decision-making. The extraordinary plan would see the UK refuse to appoint a commissioner, putting the EU in breach of its own legal duty for all 28 member states to be represented on its executive branch.... The EU already responded to that this morning. Their rules do not forbid their business to be run or to be "legally constituted" even in the absence of any country’s commissioner. So, no adverse effect to them. (I believe that plan’s been abandoned, anyway. The new plan is to contest the Benn bill in court if the motion for a general election will still be voted down tomorrow.)
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Post by mollycoddle on Sept 9, 2019 0:30:26 GMT
So how influential is this guy Cummings? I was just reading about him this morning; I hadn’t heard of him before and this morning there were 2 pieces on him. Is he really this influential? www.nytimes.com/2019/09/08/world/europe/dominic-cummings-brexit-boris-johnson.html?smid=nytcore-ios-shareFrom the article: “To his fans he was a genius, the man who directed the successful Leave campaign in the 2016 referendum and was sure to chain saw his way through the political underbrush to achieve Brexit. To his opponents, he was a genius, but an evil, unprincipled one who would go to any lengths, even subverting the democratic process, to accomplish his goals. Yet, since Mr. Johnson began unspooling his Brexit strategy, and particularly in this first real week tangling with the reality of Brexit’s complex politics, the mantle of genius has begun to slip from Mr. Cummings’s shoulders. In a matter of days, Mr. Johnson has been accused of subverting the country’s uncodified constitution by suspending sittings of Parliament, and of fracturing the Tories by banishing 21 lawmakers — including Winston Churchill’s grandson — who voted to try to stop him leaving the European Union without a deal on Oct. 31, if necessary.” Here is the second piece on the man: www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/opinion/sunday/dominic-cummings-brexit.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&login=email&auth=login-emailExcerpt: “They never did. Mr. Cummings went on to drive Brexit, pushing it to a narrow victory against huge internal opposition, by focusing aggressively on what worked. He outwitted Britain’s establishment by combining a brilliantly simple slogan — “Take back control” — with shameless lies about the European Union, the National Health Service and the danger that Turks could soon emigrate to Britain en masse, all backed up by a huge and hidden microtargeted social media campaign. Every element was designed to have a powerful, visceral appeal. Mr. Cummings proved that stories and lies, allied to strategic cunning, conviction, secrecy, ruthlessness and upending convention, could be much more appealing than reason and fact. Years of studying and writing obsessively about the art of strategy, the failings of most institutions and the success of revolutionary thinkers like Otto von Bismarck had paid off. Now this single-minded insurgent is the most powerful individual in the British government, vaulted into Downing Street as Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s chief strategic adviser. His job is to deliver Brexit and win Mr. Johnson five years more in office, making up for the prime minister’s deficiencies as a lazy, inattentive bumbler. Mr. Cummings is deploying all the techniques that have worked for him before: disruption, deception, intimidation and an implacable willingness to alienate people.“ This is so complicated, and there is such a large cast of characters, that it’s confusing to follow-at least for me.
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Deleted
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Apr 23, 2024 16:35:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 10:59:56 GMT
It's all a game to men like Boris & Trump. A game called, "how do I use the rules to subvert the intent of the laws and fuck w/the laws to get my way." And people wonder why laws have to be thousands of pages long. It's because of assholes like Boris & Trump who will use any means necessary to get what they want w/o having to be a "pansy" and work cooperatively w/others. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-eu-legal-prison-no-deal-brussels-latest-a9095976.html"Boris Johnson is threatening to sabotage the EU to make it cave in on a Brexit deal – or reject MPs’ plan to stop the UK crashing out of the bloc.In a dramatic escalation of its battle with Brussels, Downing Street believes it has devised a way out of the crisis to make the EU no longer “legally constituted”, paralysing its decision-making.The extraordinary plan would see the UK refuse to appoint a commissioner, putting the EU in breach of its own legal duty for all 28 member states to be represented on its executive branch....
That is inaccurate to say the least. He announced in the commons way back in July that the UK will not be appointing a commissioner. The reason for saying at the time was that we will be leaving the EU on 31 October whatever the circumstances. Given that the new Commission will not be taking up office until after we have left (1 November) we will not need a new Commissioner. Why would we give someone a job that wouldn't be needed ?The nomination was for candidate to cover for the November 2019-2024 College of Commissioners.
BJ was perfectly clear in his statement to the House of Commons that our decision not to appoint a new Commissioner should not prevent the EU from appointing a new Commission. This letter will enable the EU to proceed without a UK nominee. All Member States have been invited to submit nominations for Commissioners by 26 August 2019. Here is what it said in the official letter that was sent link
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,971
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Sept 9, 2019 12:02:36 GMT
Again, this all speaks to the official vote and not the tactics Russia uses within a society to foment discord, increase bias and prejudice, spread misinformation and induce chaos.
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Deleted
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Apr 23, 2024 16:35:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 12:42:29 GMT
It's all a game to men like Boris & Trump. A game called, "how do I use the rules to subvert the intent of the laws and fuck w/the laws to get my way." And people wonder why laws have to be thousands of pages long. It's because of assholes like Boris & Trump who will use any means necessary to get what they want w/o having to be a "pansy" and work cooperatively w/others. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-eu-legal-prison-no-deal-brussels-latest-a9095976.html"Boris Johnson is threatening to sabotage the EU to make it cave in on a Brexit deal – or reject MPs’ plan to stop the UK crashing out of the bloc.In a dramatic escalation of its battle with Brussels, Downing Street believes it has devised a way out of the crisis to make the EU no longer “legally constituted”, paralysing its decision-making.The extraordinary plan would see the UK refuse to appoint a commissioner, putting the EU in breach of its own legal duty for all 28 member states to be represented on its executive branch....
That is inaccurate to say the least. He announced in the commons way back in July that the UK will not be appointing a commissioner. The reason for saying at the time was that we will be leaving the EU on 31 October whatever the circumstances. Given that the new Commission will not be taking up office until after we have left (1 November) we will not need a new Commissioner. Why would we give someone a job that wouldn't be needed ?The nomination was for candidate to cover for the November 2019-2024 College of Commissioners.
BJ was perfectly clear in his statement to the House of Commons that our decision not to appoint a new Commissioner should not prevent the EU from appointing a new Commission. This letter will enable the EU to proceed without a UK nominee. All Member States have been invited to submit nominations for Commissioners by 26 August 2019. Here is what it said in the official letter that was sent linkYou won't have left now unless there is a deal, unless Boris ignores that law. So things have changed since July based on the votes of the last week or so.If they think the EU will be able to proceed why all the talk of "not legally constituted". Games.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 23, 2024 16:35:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 13:08:35 GMT
That is inaccurate to say the least. He announced in the commons way back in July that the UK will not be appointing a commissioner. The reason for saying at the time was that we will be leaving the EU on 31 October whatever the circumstances. Given that the new Commission will not be taking up office until after we have left (1 November) we will not need a new Commissioner. Why would we give someone a job that wouldn't be needed ?The nomination was for candidate to cover for the November 2019-2024 College of Commissioners.
BJ was perfectly clear in his statement to the House of Commons that our decision not to appoint a new Commissioner should not prevent the EU from appointing a new Commission. This letter will enable the EU to proceed without a UK nominee. All Member States have been invited to submit nominations for Commissioners by 26 August 2019. Here is what it said in the official letter that was sent linkYou won't have left now unless there is a deal, unless Boris ignores that law. So things have changed since July based on the votes of the last week or so.If they think the EU will be able to proceed why all the talk of "not legally constituted".
Games. That letter was dated a couple of weeks ago. ( red bolded )You're quoting a speculative opinion in a newspaper and not a Downing Street policy. Big difference. He won't ignore the law, he's not that stupid whatever one might think of him and it's not law as yet anyhow, so again speculation. The EU need all 27 countries to agree to an extension anyhow and France has already said they won't agree to it. Law or no law there's always the chance that we won't be given that extension.
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Deleted
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Apr 23, 2024 16:35:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 13:18:59 GMT
You won't have left now unless there is a deal, unless Boris ignores that law. So things have changed since July based on the votes of the last week or so.If they think the EU will be able to proceed why all the talk of "not legally constituted".
Games. That letter was dated a couple of weeks ago. ( red bolded )You're quoting a speculative opinion in a newspaper and not a Downing Street policy. Big difference. He won't ignore the law, he's not that stupid whatever one might think of him and it's not law as yet anyhow, so again speculation. The EU need all 27 countries to agree to an extension anyhow and France has already said they won't agree to it. Law or no law there's always the chance that we won't be given that extension. Yes, dotty, I wasn't referecing the letter, I was referencing your "way back in July" comment. And things have even changed since 8/23. So, for the government to float "not legally constituted" and act as if they're still absolutely leaving on 10/31 and therefore no commissioner is necessary is disingenuous, to say the least. It would be most statesman-like to say something like "Of course we would appoint a commissioner should the UK still be a part of the EU after 10/31/19. " Anything else is just games. PS - Here's another piece on the "not legally constituted". So you can see, they're trying to get this message out to multiple channels. www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/9885261/boris-johnson-brexit-deadlock-paralyse-eu/
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Deleted
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Apr 23, 2024 16:35:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 14:00:28 GMT
That letter was dated a couple of weeks ago. ( red bolded )You're quoting a speculative opinion in a newspaper and not a Downing Street policy. Big difference. He won't ignore the law, he's not that stupid whatever one might think of him and it's not law as yet anyhow, so again speculation. The EU need all 27 countries to agree to an extension anyhow and France has already said they won't agree to it. Law or no law there's always the chance that we won't be given that extension. Yes, dotty, I wasn't referecing the letter, I was referencing your "way back in July" comment. And things have even changed since 8/23. So, for the government to float "not legally constituted" and act as if they're still absolutely leaving on 10/31 and therefore no commissioner is necessary is disingenuous, to say the least. It would be most statesman-like to say something like "Of course we would appoint a commissioner should the UK still be a part of the EU after 10/31/19. " Anything else is just games. PS - Here's another piece on the "not legally constituted". So you can see, they're trying to get this message out to multiple channels. www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/9885261/boris-johnson-brexit-deadlock-paralyse-eu/But it is still speculation and no one has proof that is what he's trying to do. It might be or it might not.There's so much negativity, inaccurate information and speculation swirling around with everyone wanting to get in on the act. He's still got time to get a deal and if not then we will leave but goodness we need to give him that chance rather than block his way to every corner when the opposition to Brexit has nothing better to offer. He's consistently said that he will carry out the will of the British people to leave the EU and that is what he's trying to do....it's not a game! According to some reports and comments it was going to be a disaster and a waste of time when he met the Irish PM today too but the press conference showed otherwise.... a friendly encounter with both sides ready to find a solution and both sides understood where the other was coming from.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Sept 9, 2019 15:04:27 GMT
But it is still speculation and no one has proof that is what he's trying to do. It might be or it might not.There's so much negativity, inaccurate information and speculation swirling around with everyone wanting to get in on the act. He's still got time to get a deal and if not then we will leave but goodness we need to give him that chance rather than block his way to every corner when the opposition to Brexit has nothing better to offer. He's consistently said that he will carry out the will of the British people to leave the EU and that is what he's trying to do....it's not a game! According to some reports and comments it was going to be a disaster and a waste of time when he met the Irish PM today too but the press conference showed otherwise.... a friendly encounter with both sides ready to find a solution and both sides understood where the other was coming from. Nobody has clean hands in this, not even Labour, so people should not be too hasty in condemning one over the other. Yesterday, Dominic Raab alluded to a legal challenge so I think that’s the direction they’re (Boris/Tories) going. And I’m thinking they may have a case.
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