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Post by Darcy Collins on Aug 21, 2019 21:34:51 GMT
Why is it that we blame the dog instead of the owner? Dogs are not born vicious - any breed. People make them vicious. So sad for this little girl whose death is on the people who allowed these dogs to become a menace. It's certainly the people's fault. But you can't complete dismiss the breeding of the dogs - pit bulls were bred as fighting dogs beginning in the 1800s. And unfortunately most pit bulls today are indiscriminate at best breeding - not looking to keep aggressive behavior out of the breeding stock. Now a good owner makes a world of difference. And I have known several sweet pit bulls. But I'd say a good 1/4 of dog owners aren't great. You have a whole lot more leeway when you're not dealing with a strong dog powerful dog. Layer in the 5% of owners who are awful - and unfortunately there seems to be too strong of a correlation between those owners and pit bulls and you have a recipe for disaster. And for the record - I have met very, very few sweet chihuahuas - at least to strangers and other dogs. Those dogs are pretty well known as a breed to not be particularly friendly to other dogs and strangers - and unfortunately a lot of their owners totally ignore the behavior as "they're too small to hurt someone". I give them a wide berth when I see them as they're almost always assholes.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Aug 21, 2019 21:52:19 GMT
I have met very, very few sweet chihuahuas - at least to strangers and other dogs. Those dogs are pretty well known as a breed to not be particularly friendly to other dogs and strangers - and unfortunately a lot of their owners totally ignore the behavior as "they're too small to hurt someone".^^^ THAT is why you never hear stories about those small dogs hurting someone. Not because they DON'T bite people, but because of their size, it's not newsworthy when they do bite / hurt someone. I would hazard a very unscientific guess that lots more injuries (in terms of sheer numbers) are sustained from SMALL dogs than from large ones. ETA: one of our dear friends has three pit bulls that he's rescued due to various circumstances; he knows that he doesn't know enough about them as a breed to handle them safely (due to their strength), so he's spending the $$$ with a professional dog trainer to learn how to handle them properly.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Aug 21, 2019 22:08:05 GMT
I have met very, very few sweet chihuahuas - at least to strangers and other dogs. Those dogs are pretty well known as a breed to not be particularly friendly to other dogs and strangers - and unfortunately a lot of their owners totally ignore the behavior as "they're too small to hurt someone".^^^ THAT is why you never hear stories about those small dogs hurting someone. Not because they DON'T bite people, but because of their size, it's not newsworthy when they do bite / hurt someone. I would hazard a very unscientific guess that lots more injuries (in terms of sheer numbers) are sustained from SMALL dogs than from large ones. ETA: one of our dear friends has three pit bulls that he's rescued due to various circumstances; he knows that he doesn't know enough about them as a breed to handle them safely (due to their strength), so he's spending the $$$ with a professional dog trainer to learn how to handle them properly. I suspected you were right and this site says chihuahuas are #1 (btw 4.7 MILLION dog bites annually in the US, that's crazy) 80% require no medically care. www.caninejournal.com/dog-bite-statistics/
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Aug 21, 2019 22:08:49 GMT
I think it's time to remind people before we bash dog breeds that 97% of fatal dog bites are caused by unneutered males. They are 2.6x as likely to attack as a female in general. And the dogs that bite the most are chihuahuas. But they don’t do the damage of larger dogs, so that fact gets overlooked. I’m actually more leery of smaller yapping aggressive dogs, than I am of the bigger ones.
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Aug 21, 2019 22:12:27 GMT
I was just doing some research and saw one article that said that in 2017 74% of fatal dog attacks were by pit bulls. I would be interested in knowing more about the training of these dogs, and if training actually works. The pit bulls I have been in contact with were not pleasant at all, whether they had been trained or not. There also seems to be mixed info about whether or not neutering increases or decreases aggression. I have a spayed female. We have had her from 8 months old and she turns 8 years on saturday. When my husband suggested we adopt her, I said no. Because pitbull. He visited her 2-3 times a week for 2 months. I finally did some research that quelled my fears. We met with a behavourist and our five children and the dog before adopting. At the time we owned 2 cats and our youngest child was 2 years old. I felt confident when we brought her home. We did normal dog training. She never showed aggression toward our children or our cats. Our cats died. We adopted a 4 year old cat who can be a bitch. Our dog has never showed aggression. We adopted a.kitten. Amelia and the kitten became best of friends. And last Christmas my DD brought home a 2.5 lb teacup chihuahua that was 8 weeks old. I thought for sure if anything would trigger Amelia, it would be him. But he doesnt. He's been with us now for a year and a half and he's kind of a jerk sometimes. But she is great with him. He's full grown 4.9 lbs. She weighs 71 lbs. She is my only experience. And maybe she's a gem, but she's a great dog. She is smart. Well trained. Loving. We have always respected the fact that if she wanted to, she could do serious damage. But I would be 110% shocked if she did. ETA: I respect the kind of damage a dog her size can do. We are always on alert and have been since day 1. It’s definitely more about the type of owners, not just the dog breed - that’s a cop out IMO.
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Post by Merge on Aug 21, 2019 22:14:51 GMT
I was just doing some research and saw one article that said that in 2017 74% of fatal dog attacks were by pit bulls. I would be interested in knowing more about the training of these dogs, and if training actually works. The pit bulls I have been in contact with were not pleasant at all, whether they had been trained or not. There also seems to be mixed info about whether or not neutering increases or decreases aggression. I have nothing to back this up, but I'd question this on a couple of bases - one, "pit bull" is not an actual breed. It's impossible to know which of the breeds commonly referred to this way might have been responsible in these attacks, and what other breeds might have been mixed in there as well. Two, I think we have to look at the type of person who might commonly acquire a dog they intend to be a "watch" dog or even trained for dog fighting, and what breed or breed mixes they might choose. If the breeds referred to as pit bulls are commonly chosen by bad owners who want a vicious dog, then is that the fault of the breed or of the people who are hoping to capitalize on a stereotype? For myself, I've never met a dog of any of the bully breeds who was anything but a gentle dope. I don't own one of them, but my experience is that people who raise them like pets get gentle pets. I would expect that people who raise them to be fighters and biters get exactly that.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 21, 2019 22:33:47 GMT
I was just doing some research and saw one article that said that in 2017 74% of fatal dog attacks were by pit bulls. I would be interested in knowing more about the training of these dogs, and if training actually works. The pit bulls I have been in contact with were not pleasant at all, whether they had been trained or not. There also seems to be mixed info about whether or not neutering increases or decreases aggression. I have a spayed female. We have had her from 8 months old and she turns 8 years on saturday. When my husband suggested we adopt her, I said no. Because pitbull. He visited her 2-3 times a week for 2 months. I finally did some research that quelled my fears. We met with a behavourist and our five children and the dog before adopting. At the time we owned 2 cats and our youngest child was 2 years old. I felt confident when we brought her home. We did normal dog training. She never showed aggression toward our children or our cats. Our cats died. We adopted a 4 year old cat who can be a bitch. Our dog has never showed aggression. We adopted a.kitten. Amelia and the kitten became best of friends. And last Christmas my DD brought home a 2.5 lb teacup chihuahua that was 8 weeks old. I thought for sure if anything would trigger Amelia, it would be him. But he doesnt. He's been with us now for a year and a half and he's kind of a jerk sometimes. But she is great with him. He's full grown 4.9 lbs. She weighs 71 lbs. She is my only experience. And maybe she's a gem, but she's a great dog. She is smart. Well trained. Loving. We have always respected the fact that if she wanted to, she could do serious damage. But I would be 110% shocked if she did. ETA: I respect the kind of damage a dog her size can do. We are always on alert and have been since day 1. If she did do damage, what could you do to stop it? That is the difference between an aggressive chihuahua and an aggressive pit bull, and why people may be uncomfortable with your dog or other pit bulls (and large dogs that are intimidating and aggressive).
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 21, 2019 22:43:35 GMT
I was just doing some research and saw one article that said that in 2017 74% of fatal dog attacks were by pit bulls. I would be interested in knowing more about the training of these dogs, and if training actually works. The pit bulls I have been in contact with were not pleasant at all, whether they had been trained or not. There also seems to be mixed info about whether or not neutering increases or decreases aggression. I have nothing to back this up, but I'd question this on a couple of bases - one, "pit bull" is not an actual breed. It's impossible to know which of the breeds commonly referred to this way might have been responsible in these attacks, and what other breeds might have been mixed in there as well. Two, I think we have to look at the type of person who might commonly acquire a dog they intend to be a "watch" dog or even trained for dog fighting, and what breed or breed mixes they might choose. If the breeds referred to as pit bulls are commonly chosen by bad owners who want a vicious dog, then is that the fault of the breed or of the people who are hoping to capitalize on a stereotype? For myself, I've never met a dog of any of the bully breeds who was anything but a gentle dope. I don't own one of them, but my experience is that people who raise them like pets get gentle pets. I would expect that people who raise them to be fighters and biters get exactly that. I really don’t know the reason why the families that I knew who have pit bulls chose that breed. I do know that at least two of them had tried or were trying to train their dogs. One was a family that lived in the country. They had a mom and several “puppies” that swarmed my car and scratched at it while I was still in it. I texted the owner to get the dogs. After a few minutes they disappeared and I thought it was safe to get out. As soon as I got out the dogs reappeared and started jumping all over me, barked and one started to nip at me before the owner came out. Another home had a newish pit bull that the mom said they were training. But it needed to be in a kennel in the house because it was viscious when people were there. It jumped and barked and growled the whole time I was there, every time. Another one had an American bully and she had puppies. The mom dog seemed ok (relatively, to me as someone who is cautious around dogs) until it had puppies. Then it started to change. This family also had a baby and let the dog be in the babies face and saw no problem with it. No way would I trust that dog in my house with how it was acting around those puppies.
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Aug 21, 2019 22:50:33 GMT
I have nothing to back this up, but I'd question this on a couple of bases - one, "pit bull" is not an actual breed. It's impossible to know which of the breeds commonly referred to this way might have been responsible in these attacks, and what other breeds might have been mixed in there as well. Two, I think we have to look at the type of person who might commonly acquire a dog they intend to be a "watch" dog or even trained for dog fighting, and what breed or breed mixes they might choose. If the breeds referred to as pit bulls are commonly chosen by bad owners who want a vicious dog, then is that the fault of the breed or of the people who are hoping to capitalize on a stereotype? For myself, I've never met a dog of any of the bully breeds who was anything but a gentle dope. I don't own one of them, but my experience is that people who raise them like pets get gentle pets. I would expect that people who raise them to be fighters and biters get exactly that. I really don’t know the reason why the families that I knew who have pit bulls chose that breed. I do know that at least two of them had tried or were trying to train their dogs. One was a family that lived in the country. They had a mom and several “puppies” that swarmed my car and scratched at it while I was still in it. I texted the owner to get the dogs. After a few minutes they disappeared and I thought it was safe to get out. As soon as I got out the dogs reappeared and started jumping all over me, barked and one started to nip at me before the owner came out. Another home had a newish pit bull that the mom said they were training. But it needed to be in a kennel in the house because it was viscious when people were there. It jumped and barked and growled the whole time I was there, every time. Another one had an American bully and she had puppies. The mom dog seemed ok (relatively, to me as someone who is cautious around dogs) until it had puppies. Then it started to change. This family also had a baby and let the dog be in the babies face and saw no problem with it. No way would I trust that dog in my house with how it was acting around those puppies. None of those dogs behavior seem remotely trained to me. I don’t blame you for being wary of any of them the way they were behaving. Training a dog (especially a strong willed type of one) is a big time investment, that I think people underestimate. When people come to my house while I’m training a new dog, they are never left alone to be greeted by them like you were. You need to be there training them and showing them what to do and what’s expected of them when new people come, and you have to be willing to intervene until they’re reached that point.
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ddly
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,946
Jul 10, 2014 19:36:28 GMT
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Post by ddly on Aug 21, 2019 22:50:42 GMT
That is so heartbreaking. That poor girl and her family!
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Post by kernriver on Aug 21, 2019 23:09:06 GMT
Fucking pit bulls. I weep for the child’s family. I have no idea how you could go on.
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Post by kernriver on Aug 21, 2019 23:15:17 GMT
Something came across my instagram the other day. Two young pit bulls ‘playing’. They were both frozen, eyes locked and growling at each other. It was absolutely chilling. But then I read the comments and they were like ‘awww, what a cute pittie family’ ‘wow, gorgeous dogs’. ‘It’s so fun to watch them play’. I didn’t even bother to leave a comment. I just unfollowed. Unbelievable.
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Post by mustlovecats on Aug 21, 2019 23:19:38 GMT
Why is it that we blame the dog instead of the owner? Dogs are not born vicious - any breed. People make them vicious. So sad for this little girl whose death is on the people who allowed these dogs to become a menace. Many years ago where I lived a neighbor was mauled to death by another neighbor’s dogs... the owners went to trial and were convicted of manslaughter. The case sincerely puts the blame on the dog owners, rightly so, but the dogs themselves played a part, weighed over 140 pounds each and the size and power of those dogs in and of itself was a problem. A dog like that is very difficult to control in general but they basically weaponized those dogs. Horrible horrible event. There is an extent to which the dog itself was a factor because a dog of that size and power was impossible to control, only train, leaving the dog in the position of power in some ways.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 20, 2024 5:16:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 23:23:20 GMT
Why is it that we blame the dog instead of the owner? Dogs are not born vicious - any breed. People make them vicious. So sad for this little girl whose death is on the people who allowed these dogs to become a menace. Many years ago where I lived a neighbor was mauled to death by another neighbor’s dogs... the owners went to trial and were convicted of manslaughter. The case sincerely puts the blame on the dog owners, rightly so, but the dogs themselves played a part, weighed over 140 pounds each and the size and power of those dogs in and of itself was a problem. A dog like that is very difficult to control in general but they basically weaponized those dogs. Horrible horrible event. There is an extent to which the dog itself was a factor because a dog of that size and power was impossible to control, only train, leaving the dog in the position of power in some ways. That doesn't happen to be Diane Whipple does it?
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on Aug 21, 2019 23:24:16 GMT
That poor child. My heart breaks for the terror she must have gone through.
I hope the pitbull owner is charged with the girl's death.
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Post by kernriver on Aug 22, 2019 0:31:11 GMT
Many years ago where I lived a neighbor was mauled to death by another neighbor’s dogs... the owners went to trial and were convicted of manslaughter. The case sincerely puts the blame on the dog owners, rightly so, but the dogs themselves played a part, weighed over 140 pounds each and the size and power of those dogs in and of itself was a problem. A dog like that is very difficult to control in general but they basically weaponized those dogs. Horrible horrible event. There is an extent to which the dog itself was a factor because a dog of that size and power was impossible to control, only train, leaving the dog in the position of power in some ways. That doesn't happen to be Diane Whipple does it? Was that the case in San Francisco where the woman was attacked in the hallway of her building and they tried to blame it on the fact that the woman was menstruating?
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Post by kernriver on Aug 22, 2019 0:33:06 GMT
Here is why we blame the dogs:
1. The dogs did the killing 2. It is impossible to eradicate stupid people 3. It is possible to eradicate these dogs.
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muggins
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,861
Jul 30, 2017 3:38:57 GMT
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Post by muggins on Aug 22, 2019 0:59:37 GMT
I cannot imagine that child’s last terrifying moments and the scene her family must have witnessed. It must be one of the most horrific ways to die. I expect her family suffer from the trauma for the rest of their lives.
Bull breeds can be deadly. Untrained ones with negligent owners even more so. As much as pit bull owner advocate for them and have anecdotes about how they were bred as ‘nanny’ dogs the stats show that they maul people to death. Yes, other dogs may bite more, but they don’t have the same strength, tenacity, and wide jaw that pit bulls do. That’s why they cause so much damage.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 20, 2024 5:16:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 1:01:22 GMT
That doesn't happen to be Diane Whipple does it? Was that the case in San Francisco where the woman was attacked in the hallway of her building and they tried to blame it on the fact that the woman was menstruating? yes
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Post by jeremysgirl on Aug 22, 2019 1:39:22 GMT
I have a spayed female. We have had her from 8 months old and she turns 8 years on saturday. When my husband suggested we adopt her, I said no. Because pitbull. He visited her 2-3 times a week for 2 months. I finally did some research that quelled my fears. We met with a behavourist and our five children and the dog before adopting. At the time we owned 2 cats and our youngest child was 2 years old. I felt confident when we brought her home. We did normal dog training. She never showed aggression toward our children or our cats. Our cats died. We adopted a 4 year old cat who can be a bitch. Our dog has never showed aggression. We adopted a.kitten. Amelia and the kitten became best of friends. And last Christmas my DD brought home a 2.5 lb teacup chihuahua that was 8 weeks old. I thought for sure if anything would trigger Amelia, it would be him. But he doesnt. He's been with us now for a year and a half and he's kind of a jerk sometimes. But she is great with him. He's full grown 4.9 lbs. She weighs 71 lbs. She is my only experience. And maybe she's a gem, but she's a great dog. She is smart. Well trained. Loving. We have always respected the fact that if she wanted to, she could do serious damage. But I would be 110% shocked if she did. ETA: I respect the kind of damage a dog her size can do. We are always on alert and have been since day 1. If she did do damage, what could you do to stop it? That is the difference between an aggressive chihuahua and an aggressive pit bull, and why people may be uncomfortable with your dog or other pit bulls (and large dogs that are intimidating and aggressive). Why did you ask for others experience if you weren't even open to hearing it? Intimidating and aggressive aren't even close to describing my dog. She gets her nose scratched from coming too close to my cat. She loves to have her ears nibbled at by a chihuahua. Does that sound like a dog who is going to chAse down a little girl on her bike? Fact is you don't go from being an easy dog to killing a child. There were signs of aggression and the owners didn't care. I'm not that kind of pet owner.
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,968
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Aug 22, 2019 1:45:16 GMT
Why is it that we blame the dog instead of the owner? Dogs are not born vicious - any breed. People make them vicious. So sad for this little girl whose death is on the people who allowed these dogs to become a menace. No, some dogs are born much more aggressive than others. Like all genetic characteristics, certain traits are more concentrated in specific breeds.
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Post by chaosisapony on Aug 22, 2019 1:49:29 GMT
How tragic. I truly hope the owners are prosecuted. I have zero patience anymore for people that don't control their animals.
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Aug 22, 2019 2:51:15 GMT
Why is it that we blame the dog instead of the owner? Dogs are not born vicious - any breed. People make them vicious. So sad for this little girl whose death is on the people who allowed these dogs to become a menace. No, some dogs are born much more aggressive than others. Like all genetic characteristics, certain traits are more concentrated in specific breeds. I think that’s naive and uninformed. Any dog can bite if provoked. 3 vs a person is a pack attack, which is a different dynamic, entirely. The only dog I’ve ever been bitten by in my life (enough to leave a permanent mark) was a very docile and gentle black lab.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 22, 2019 3:12:53 GMT
If she did do damage, what could you do to stop it? That is the difference between an aggressive chihuahua and an aggressive pit bull, and why people may be uncomfortable with your dog or other pit bulls (and large dogs that are intimidating and aggressive). Why did you ask for others experience if you weren't even open to hearing it? Intimidating and aggressive aren't even close to describing my dog. She gets her nose scratched from coming too close to my cat. She loves to have her ears nibbled at by a chihuahua. Does that sound like a dog who is going to chAse down a little girl on her bike? Fact is you don't go from being an easy dog to killing a child. There were signs of aggression and the owners didn't care. I'm not that kind of pet owner. When I said that I would be interested to know about the training of dogs and if it works to prevent attacks, I was talking about research regarding dogs who have attacked people. People always say that if a dog is trained it will be fine and won’t be aggressive. I would like to know if dogs (the ones in this situation as well as in general) had training, what kind, were there indications of aggression prior to the attack, etc.
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Aug 22, 2019 3:13:29 GMT
I was just doing some research and saw one article that said that in 2017 74% of fatal dog attacks were by pit bulls. I would be interested in knowing more about the training of these dogs, and if training actually works. The pit bulls I have been in contact with were not pleasant at all, whether they had been trained or not. There also seems to be mixed info about whether or not neutering increases or decreases aggression. Doesn’t surprise me, the shelters in this country are full of pit bull mixes and chihuahua mixes. Don’t underestimate the damage even chihuahuas teeth with even a third of the bite force of a larger dog can do to fragile child and elderly skin. Even if neutering didn’t work effectively enough for aggression, it would most certainly work for population control, and the shelters wouldn’t be full of them. That’s more than half the problem, right there. And yes, training does work. It requires time (a lot of it) consistency and tailoring it to the individual dog. Like I said, I would not even remotely describe a pack of dogs allowed to run all over arriving visitors or one that had to be put in a kennel when they arrived due to acting out, as effectively trained. Unfortunately, there is nothing to stop people who really shouldn’t have dogs from owning them, and allowing their irresponsible behavior to perpetuate. And it results in tragedies like that precious innocent little girl.
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Post by tentoes on Aug 22, 2019 4:32:06 GMT
I can't even read it. So sad.
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Post by lesserknownpea on Aug 22, 2019 7:23:45 GMT
This is So beyond sad. I agree the owner should be harshly prosecuted.
My idiot cousin had two pit bulls who attacked a poor neighbor in their apartment hallway. He was upset the dogs had to be euthanized.
A dear elderly friend was making a visit and was mauled and required hundreds of stitches on her face, neck and chest. She had been there before and the owners were shocked their dogs did that.
Statistics don’t lie. Love your sweet pets people. Keep them and people, especially kids, safe. But please, please, please, neuter all of the breeds related to the heinous history of dog fighting.
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smartypants71
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,693
Location: Houston, TX
Jun 25, 2014 22:47:49 GMT
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Post by smartypants71 on Aug 22, 2019 13:12:13 GMT
This story just breaks my heart. I hope the owners are prosecuted and punished heavily.
I have a neighbor who has an intact male bully breed. He gets out ALL the time. His picture is constantly being posted on Nextdoor alerting people he's out again. He actually is a very sweet dog, but it makes me SO nervous when I see him out while I'm walking my dog. I have a 100 pound german shepherd and the other dog always runs up to my dog wanting to play. Nothing bad has happened YET, but who knows?
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Post by dewryce on Aug 22, 2019 13:49:42 GMT
My initial thought reading posts in threads like these, it’s the owner not the dogs, is that is reminds me in some ways about discussions we have on gun control. A lot of people want certain guns and/or accessories banned that have the ability to do the most damage due to the velocity of the bullets and the sheer capacity for ammunition. It is the human’s intent with these objects that determines the impact of the guns/accessories/ammunition. But if they didn’t exist (or weren’t accessible) in the first place, the people with ill intent couldn’t weaponize them.
In other words, it seems like someone who wants an aggressive animal is not going to be able to do as much damage in the same amount of time with a lab simply due to the nature and physical characteristics of the animal as they would be able to with a Pitt. Could they train the animal to still do tons of damage? Of course. But would it be as easy or extensive? The same with those that just passively own them and don’t take the time to do the training needed and/or keep watch over them for any aggressive tendencies, it is similar to irresponsible gun owners leaving a (thought to be) more dangerous gun around. I realize that the have minds of their own whereas guns do not, the thought comparisons just intrigued me.
Please excuse any terms I may have gotten incorrect, I will admit my knowledge is limited in these areas.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 20, 2024 5:16:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 14:07:11 GMT
dewryce I was thinking the exact same thing. You could exchange the words gun/pitbull in any of these threads and have almost identical discussions.
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