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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 9, 2019 17:47:19 GMT
I think I am a very kind person. Even when I feel like someone doesn't deserve my kindness, I'm kind anyway. Yes, I subscribe to the actions are more important than feelings theory. I have to. I'm bipolar and my feelings aren't reliable. My actions are. And that's what I consider to be good character. And that's what I strive for. I stated on that thread that I'm struggling with my family and friends who are Trump supporters and it's precisely because of the kindness issue. They are choosing to support unkindness. They are choosing a political leader who isn't kind. They are supporting policies that aren't kind at all (like the treatment of people at our border). And while I think there is room for political disagreement and kindness is debatable in how do we solve the illegal immigration problem, I can get on board with a robust debate about how to let people in, if we should, how many, how do we handle it, etc. Where you lose me is when a court has order soap and toothbrushes and you were alright with that. Go back to where you came from brown people. This is the very definition of unkindness. You want me to be kind to you and I am. But you don't want to have to show kindness to others? You want to be kind to me because I'm your cousin and we have a nice, shared history. But you want to be unkind to people of color? I'm supposed to be alright with that? I think what you are seeing is an ethical crisis because people who have taken the unkindness and oppression of others on the chin are finally standing up and calling out the unkindness. It looks like division because finally, people are tired of being kind when oppression exists because of the people we are supposed to be kind too. It looks very much to me like a higher set of expectations for one side. You can't help it you're racist, you've been sheltered. You can't help it you think less of immigrants, you're just an America first, flag waving patriot. You can't help it you don't like gays, your bible tells you they are morally repugnant. We have been making excuses for unkindness for years. Some of us have just reached the end of our rope. SO well stated! I am currently wrestling with how to handle seeing a picture of my 14 year old great niece and three friends wearing Trump 2020 hats on Facebook, as I am going home to visit the fams at Thanksgiving. I haven't visited in two years. Granted family is somewhat different from friends, as I didn't get to pick them, but shit, I am feeling so sad and conflicted right now. I can kind of (muscles tensed, gritting my teeth) understand how people voted for him the first time, but I cannot understand how any sentient being could even entertain the possibility the second time around. I used to have quite a good relationship with them and our visits were fun. I think I can be cordial to them at the visit, but it makes me sad our relationship will never be the same. I can never view them through the same lens. I completely agree with this as well as what jeremysgirl said. I also have similar situations with family members and am also conflicted on how to proceed with those relationships.
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Post by quinlove on Oct 9, 2019 17:48:35 GMT
For those who don't want politics to come between friends and family, is there a line in the sand somewhere that you won't cross? Maybe mainstream Republican/Democrat differences are something you don't want to think about. But is there a line that you won't cross when beliefs become more radical? Or no matter what, you are good with it? Are there religious aspects to politics that you will draw the line at? White supremacisim? Neo-Nazism? Islamism? Radical Islamism? I really think everyone draws the line somewhere. The only question is where. Or another way of looking at it, at what point in Germany would you have not remained friends with your neighbors, friends, family who embraced Nazism? Or no matter what you knew? I so often do not communicate well. God knows I try. But it rarely works out in short written form. Here goes, again. Two of my adult children voted for Trump. I really don’t want to get into the whys on that here. Let’s just say they are not that informed on a lot of it and voted for their own reasons. I think they may vote for him again. The three of us do not discuss this. They know how I feel. How do I feel ? I hate Trump and everything he stands for. Which is actually, he only stands for himself. He has no redeeming values. Him I could spit on. My children are kind and loving. One is an elementary school teacher. One was a Phoenix Firefighter, now a business owner. We don’t discuss politics. One of my very good friends is a Trump supporter. I only know this because someone else told me. We do not discuss politics. She is a good person and we seem to have a lot of the same beliefs and values. Oh, the line in the sand ? Certainly no line whereas my children are involved. I raised them. I know them inside and out and I am very proud of both of them. My friend ? If there was a situation where she acted like a horrible person, I would not look the other way and would address it how I felt comfortable. I’ve posted here about being confronted by co workers who are devote Trumpites and feel proud to say so. Am I kind ? As much as you can be in a heated disagreement. We usually hug it out and agree to disagree. I am not walking around blindly. But, the older I get - my views have soften quite a bit. I try to be positive and never negative. I am kind. I treat others how I would like to be treated. When others are not kind there is usually a reason. Depending on who it is, I might try to find out more or not. Being kind almost always wins in the end.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Oct 9, 2019 17:59:11 GMT
I keep trying to form a cogent response, but I just keep coming back to, "is she really using Ellen and GWB to try to shame a bunch of adults for their political views?"
I am usually quite polite to the Trumpers that I know in person. That doesn't mean I need to invite them over or be best friends. This isn't about politics. It's about humanity and decency and real patriotism.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 9, 2019 18:13:14 GMT
For those who don't want politics to come between friends and family, is there a line in the sand somewhere that you won't cross? Maybe mainstream Republican/Democrat differences are something you don't want to think about. But is there a line that you won't cross when beliefs become more radical? Or no matter what, you are good with it? Are there religious aspects to politics that you will draw the line at? White supremacisim? Neo-Nazism? Islamism? Radical Islamism? I really think everyone draws the line somewhere. The only question is where. Or another way of looking at it, at what point in Germany would you have not remained friends with your neighbors, friends, family who embraced Nazism? Or no matter what you knew? Are you talking about a line in the sand where you won't associate with people anymore? The family members that I refer to when I say that I don't know how I want to proceed anymore are not simply Republicans. They have said and posted things that indicate that deep down they are not who I thought they were, or have the beliefs that I thought they did. For example, my stepdad has always said that my cousin and her parents were racist. I was very close to them growing up and didn't really give it much thought when he said that. During the Trump campaign, they started saying things and posting things that were pretty offensive. Not just racially insensitive, but clearly they were Trump supporters and hate Democrats/liberals. When it was pointed out that they were sharing false information, they either laughed it off or lashed out. When I asked my stepdad what he meant about them being racist, he said that years ago my cousin commented that he didn't know how stepdad could work with Mexican kids at the school since they are all so dirty. Her husband has made comments about intentionally doing things that would offend native americans, like whistling, when working as a nurse in a hospital on a reservation. My uncle (her dad) was recently talking to my mom and stepdad about their trip to Europe. Uncle made a comment about not wanting to go there because he has heard there are so many "ragheads" in Europe. Mom told him that they actually saw more white people on the trip than they do at home (in Iowa) and uncle said, "Maybe we should go there and stay." Cousins 16 year old son wore a MAGA/trump shirt to Christmas. I have other friends and family members who have said things that are less blatantly discriminatory, but that give enough info that they are ok with it. I am nice to them, but don't look at them the same way that I did. On a personal level, I want my kids to feel safe everywhere they go--whether that is at a family gathering, in the community, at school, in the country as a whole and in the whole world. Have my relatives ever acted unkind towards my biracial kids (half black/half white) or towards my biracial cousins (half Latina/half white)? No. But how people treat individuals does not always reflect their values as a whole. That is where posts on social media have been very telling. I have quite a few friends/acquaintances that have said that they are Republican, but have not made specific comments one way or the other about Trump or any of the hot button topics, so I don't really know where they stand. The fact that they did vote for Trump (even if they held their noses to do so) or say that they are in line with the Republican values makes me wary of them. I wonder if they are safe (emotionally) for my kids to be around. So, I guess my line is when people show me their true colors in that they support taking away people's rights, discrimination, treating people poorly. To me, those things are the most important values and I probably don't want to get too close to people who are willing to overlook what is happening with the Republican party these days. I do wonder how the Nazi party drew people in and how that compares to what is happening today.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 9, 2019 18:26:54 GMT
I also want to say that I have a strong sense of right/wrong/fairness that I think goes along with my desire for everyone to be treated equally. The fact that people will believe the lies and propaganda that is being spewed at them is maddening to me. So I guess that is also a line for me.
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Oct 9, 2019 18:43:04 GMT
First, let me say I have not been avoiding this thread. I committed the transgression of "posting and running" off for the day. Now I've had a chance to sit and read the very thoughtful responses offered to my question. I wondered when and if someone would ask my response as I had not posted on the previous thread. I no longer call myself a member of any political party. I despise the us-vs-them mentality that it has engendered. While, I am decidedly "liberal" in my social views, I am reluctant to call myself a liberal and prefer the term humanitarian. I am admittedly more "conservative" when it comes to issues of financial policy and military support. I have family and friends all over the political spectrum. I do believe in kindness. I choose that as my default way of interacting because of who I am. My grandmother always taught me to "never let others determine YOUR behavior" and I taught that same lesson to my four boys. But she also taught me to stand up for what I believe in. I believe Trump is not fit to be president. He lacks the temperament, intelligence, and honesty needed. He is an embarrassment to our country. He frightens me. And I can't believe there are so many who think the emperor is beautifully dressed despite the fact that it's obvious he is butt naked. For most of them (family and close friends), while I struggle to love unconditionally, I also try to be that niggling voice in their consciousness pointing out the horrors. These are really disturbing times politically. I fear for our country and our world. I no longer have a mostly optimistic view of the greater global stability and peace. And I am greatly dismayed by the stridency of all the hate that is manifested. I don't know if I answered the question gar posed to me or not. But I do appreciate the conversation here and thank everyone who shared. I keep trying to form a cogent response, but I just keep coming back to, "is she really using Ellen and GWB to try to shame a bunch of adults for their political views?" Ummmm, no. And while I started to type out a long defense, I'm choosing instead just to leave my response at no.
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Post by gar on Oct 9, 2019 19:01:22 GMT
I don't know if I answered the question gar posed to me or not. You answered just fine for me
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TheOtherMeg
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,541
Jun 25, 2014 20:58:14 GMT
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Post by TheOtherMeg on Oct 9, 2019 19:04:28 GMT
...You can't help it you're racist, you've been sheltered. You can't help it you think less of immigrants, you're just an America first, flag waving patriot. You can't help it you don't like gays, your bible tells you they are morally repugnant. We have been making excuses for unkindness for years. Some of us have just reached the end of our rope. And toss in a bit of whining and victim blaming, as well. "I'm a good person, it's these other people doing all these bad things that are making my opinions appear bad. If they'd just behave, you'd never even know I was an asshole bad things wouldn't happen to them." Has this changed my mind? No. Am I mad at Ellen for sitting next to Bush? No. Can the world use more kindness? Yes. However, just based on my Facebook feed and who is sharing this, I think they really mean be kinder to straight white Christian Americans because I don't see them extending kindness to anyone else. In some cases this reads "you need to be tolerant of my intolerance". No, no I don't. I will be civil and polite, but I don't need to extend any more than that. They're warming up their victim act for the upcoming season. Just wait till the Starbucks cups and all the Happy Holidays signs come out.
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scrappinmama
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,854
Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on Oct 9, 2019 19:24:28 GMT
From news reports: DeGeneres said just because she doesn't agree with someone on everything, doesn't mean she's not going to be friends with them. "When I say be kind to one another, I don't mean be kind to the people who think the same way you do. I mean be kind to everyone," she said. Any of you peas who took the complete opposite stance on the Can a friendship survive differences in politics? thread feel any differently now? Asking for a friend... Tell your friend that I am happy to be friends with people who are pro-life, or who do not share my opinions on gun control. I cannot be friends with someone who supports racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. Why is this so difficult to understand for some people? If we went back in time during WWII, could you be friends with a Hitler supporter? I sure couldn't. I would have no problems being friends with him, even though I totally disagreed with how he ran the country. He is a decent human being who did what he thought was best for the country as a whole, not just a select few. And let me emphasis that I did not agree with his politics. Not by a long shot. I was glad when he left office.
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quiltedbrain
Full Member
Posts: 429
Jun 26, 2014 3:34:53 GMT
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Post by quiltedbrain on Oct 9, 2019 19:27:37 GMT
It’s a very curious feature of most of the Texas GOP - lovely, kind people for the most part, would give you the shirt off their back, while simultaneously fighting against your right to marry you who want, have bodily autonomy, stay in the country to which you were brought as a toddler, etc. They honestly don’t see any disconnect in their actions, and neither does/did Bush. That curious feature exists in most of the Kentucky and North Carolina GOP as well, in my experience. My own circle has become very narrow since finding out where people really stand with the election of Trump. I have let friendships and some extended family relationships go due to their support of this administration. So, for me personally, I cannot be friends with someone who supports oppression. As for Ellen and "be nice..." Well, she had very little bearing on my life before her statement, and I suspect I shall continue in that same vein.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 25, 2024 11:36:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2019 19:30:53 GMT
I was not a fan of W.'s policies. ESPECIALLY the Iraq war that IMO pretty much fathered ISIS and plunged much of the Middle East into turmoil that it has yet to recover. (That is a WHOLE other thread!) But as I have seen him since he has been OUT of office, he does seem like he is a decent person.
I cannot say the same for Trump. He is beyond greedy and just the worst narcissist that I have ever seen. His "policies" are in NO WAY for the American People. The things that he does are simply self-serving. HE is a bad hombre!
Now I have family members that are Trump supporters. We have agreed that we do not discuss politics. The qualities that these family members have that seem to have blossomed with Trump as president, were quite frankly, always there. I know these family members will be there long after Trump is gone and it is for that reason, I have to swallow that they support him. They are very susceptible to disinformation.
I just think W and Trump are like comparing apples to zebras.
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Post by rainangel on Oct 9, 2019 19:52:34 GMT
I guess I would find it difficult to be close friends with someone who has a different view on human value than me. My political views are that all human life has equal value. People who are rich are in my opinion able to make a larger contribution (tax) than people on a lower income. We should all have equal access to basic rights like health care and education. Those are core values with me, obviously highly influenced by me growing up in a country which is pretty much socialist, with universal education and health care.
I would find it very difficult to have close friendships with people who is of an opinion that some people are of more value, and should have more health and wealth than others. But I am not unkind to them in everyday life. I obviously meet people with different political all the time, and I can be around them, be related them, work with them, be social with them...... But my close friends share my 'socialist' views of human value. Included in my definition of human value is to treat ALL people with respect and kindness.
Of course, some people are just straight up filled with too much hate and venom. I avoid those people, and critizise their opinions. But it's not like I would refuse to help them up if they fell down. Even if the big orange D fell down in front of me, I would help him get up. It's just basic decency. Then I would critizise his political views. I somehow doubt he would help me up though.....
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Post by monklady123 on Oct 9, 2019 20:04:20 GMT
From news reports: DeGeneres said just because she doesn't agree with someone on everything, doesn't mean she's not going to be friends with them. "When I say be kind to one another, I don't mean be kind to the people who think the same way you do. I mean be kind to everyone," she said. Any of you peas who took the complete opposite stance on the Can a friendship survive differences in politics? thread feel any differently now? Asking for a friend... I haven't read any of this thread yet, so maybe others said what I'm going to say. -- My first thought is that there can be a huge difference between "being friends with someone" and "being kind to someone". I certainly try to be kind to everyone, but I can guarantee you that I'm not going to try to be friends with everyone. So no, I do not feel any differently now. Also, as we hashed and rehashed in that "can a friendship survive..." thread, so many of us are distinguishing between people who we may disagree with and those people who are racist homophobic misogynists (or any other combination of traits we see emerging from under their rocks lately). I disagree politically with my Republican neighbor but she is not a trump-ite. I would (and do) go out for coffee with her from time to time and we can enjoy ourselves and maybe even talk politics. But I would never even bother going out with a trump-ite because of everything that he stands for.
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Post by ladytrisha on Oct 9, 2019 20:07:55 GMT
I can handle a difference in opinion (several of my friends and co-workers think differently), but I will not let someone spout endless racist crap to me because someone else gets free stuff and she doesn't. That's what ended our friendship - actually the final nail as it was already dying due to her sleeping around with a friend's husband (among many).
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casii
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,461
Jun 29, 2014 14:40:44 GMT
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Post by casii on Oct 9, 2019 20:08:04 GMT
There's a huge chasm between Bush and Trump. That said, I wonder if there's information that Bush has changed his tune on equal marriage rights or the war in Iraq.
Trump has no redeeming qualities and is tearing not only our nation, but others apart. The people I know who are Trump supporters post truly ugly things on social media but also feel free to attack whatever I post that hints as political though I am very careful to only post positive information to signal boost my views. I do not label or leave nasty comments on their posts. But I'm supposed to be cool with them telling me I'm a libtard snowflake who doesn't understand locker room talk, the 2nd amendment, wants to eat babies (that's a new one), etc.
I was really thrown into the lion's den this past summer when my mother passed away. A whole treasure trove of Trump loving relatives who've spewed hate towards me since 2016 were suddenly hugging me, expressing their support, etc. Folks, I did not fall off the turnip truck. I will not see most of these people again until my own father passes away. I'll be polite and do what I have to do and then never let them darken my thoughts again. And that's their loss since they choose to cling to the idea that Trump was sent by God to save us all. That's blasphemy and idol worship.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Oct 9, 2019 20:09:31 GMT
Spongemom Scrappants, I know you have been outspoken about your beliefs. I guess I am confused about why you would ask this question since 99% of the replies on the other thread were the same as this thread. Ellen watching a football game with GWB doesn't really change my view of this administration and the people who support it. I can be friends with someone who thinks Trump's tax cut was a great idea but not someone who agrees with the (not very) humanitarian policies of this administration.
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Post by MichyM on Oct 9, 2019 20:15:12 GMT
The people I know who are Trump supporters post truly ugly things on social media but also feel free to attack whatever I post that hints as political though I am very careful to only post positive information to signal boost my views. I do not label or leave nasty comments on their posts. But I'm supposed to be cool with them telling me I'm a libtard snowflake who doesn't understand locker room talk, the 2nd amendment, wants to eat babies (that's a new one), etc. I ask this question with 100% sincerity. Why are these people even on your social media as *friends?*
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casii
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,461
Jun 29, 2014 14:40:44 GMT
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Post by casii on Oct 9, 2019 20:41:38 GMT
The people I know who are Trump supporters post truly ugly things on social media but also feel free to attack whatever I post that hints as political though I am very careful to only post positive information to signal boost my views. I do not label or leave nasty comments on their posts. But I'm supposed to be cool with them telling me I'm a libtard snowflake who doesn't understand locker room talk, the 2nd amendment, wants to eat babies (that's a new one), etc. I ask this question with 100% sincerity. Why are these people even on your social media as *friends?* For funeral arrangements I had to unhide or refriend some of them. Most have already been unfriended again. Dad is hidden because he just can't help but post whatever whackadoodle meme comes his way. It's as though he can't think for himself. I've gotten PMs from some of them such as if I'm shown in a post at a Moms Demand event, March for Life (as in common sense gun control), Women's March, etc, they literally lose their minds. I'm not attacking them, but somehow it affronts their very soul.
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Oct 9, 2019 22:22:38 GMT
Spongemom Scrappants, I know you have been outspoken about your beliefs. I guess I am confused about why you would ask this question since 99% of the replies on the other thread were the same as this thread. Ellen watching a football game with GWB doesn't really change my view of this administration and the people who support it. I suppose I was wondering if that bandwagon effect was influencing this as well. I saw it happening on FB. Some of the very people that would vehemently oppose Ellen's rights as a member of the LGBTQ population were praising the video and the hypocrisy of what underlies it all going right over their heads was mind boggling to me. The topic she was addressing was so close to what the previous thread had discussed -- it begged the question of whether it would make anyone here reconsider their statements.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Oct 9, 2019 22:25:36 GMT
Spongemom Scrappants, I know you have been outspoken about your beliefs. I guess I am confused about why you would ask this question since 99% of the replies on the other thread were the same as this thread. Ellen watching a football game with GWB doesn't really change my view of this administration and the people who support it. I suppose I was wondering if that bandwagon effect was influencing this as well. I saw it happening on FB. Some of the very people that would vehemently oppose Ellen's rights as a member of the LGBTQ population were praising the video and the hypocrisy of what underlies it all going right over their heads was mind boggling to me. The topic she was addressing was so close to what the previous thread had discussed -- it begged the question of whether it would make anyone here reconsider their statements. I seriously misread your post and I sincerely apologize for that. Thank you for articulating something I've been unable to express; The oddness of people who don't believe in LGBTQ rights now saying, "be like Ellen." I always appreciate your intelligence and insight!
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Post by flanz on Oct 9, 2019 22:36:21 GMT
This is exactly where I am, I can be polite even kind to people with different beliefs but I don't want to be friends with anyone who believes that other human beings are somehow beneath them or shouldn't have the same rights they do. That to me would be saying that I'm fine with those beliefs and I'm really not. This sums it up for me too!
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Post by mollycoddle on Oct 9, 2019 22:44:29 GMT
The people I know who are Trump supporters post truly ugly things on social media but also feel free to attack whatever I post that hints as political though I am very careful to only post positive information to signal boost my views. I do not label or leave nasty comments on their posts. But I'm supposed to be cool with them telling me I'm a libtard snowflake who doesn't understand locker room talk, the 2nd amendment, wants to eat babies (that's a new one), etc. I ask this question with 100% sincerity. Why are these people even on your social media as *friends?* I can answer for myself. They are relatives. One is my older brother. Luckily none of them are big posters.🤷♀️
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RosieKat
Drama Llama
PeaJect #12
Posts: 5,374
Jun 25, 2014 19:28:04 GMT
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Post by RosieKat on Oct 9, 2019 22:57:07 GMT
So this is where I used to stand: She has no issue with civil unions or giving same sex couples all the state/civil/legal benefits - she just wants to limit the use of the word to heterosexual couples. However, I have learned and grown and matured as hopefully we all do over the span of 20 years. What janeliz says below is true, and I believe what I quoted from Merge is also true. Good hang. But saying it’s about “beliefs” is a dodge. Be friends with people who disagree. Be kind to everyone. Bush led the campaign against your marriage. His two Supreme Court justices dissented in the marriage equality case. To be fair - it’s my understanding that Bush’s beliefs about human rights have changed, and if he were a candidate today, I don’t think he’d be electable because he’s not socially conservative enough. Where I was 20 some years ago, I had actually had fairly minimal exposure to gay people. I'm honestly not sure I even knew they existed until I was in college. I wasn't stupid, just naive. My point is that sometimes when you've grown up and lived a certain way (in my case, marriage is a man and a woman, and it's basically forever) that changing and/or growing takes time. I do not know what Bush's personal views are now, and yes, I disagree with things that he and his government did. I did not disagree with banning gay marriage at the time, but I have since changed my mind. I have also heard that his human rights beliefs have altered, although I have not heard it from his mouth. Perhaps he, too, has grown up.
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Post by Legacy Girl on Oct 9, 2019 22:59:56 GMT
I am currently wrestling with how to handle seeing a picture of my 14 year old great niece and three friends wearing Trump 2020 hats on Facebook, as I am going home to visit the fams at Thanksgiving. I haven't visited in two years. Granted family is somewhat different from friends, as I didn't get to pick them, but shit, I am feeling so sad and conflicted right now. I can kind of (muscles tensed, gritting my teeth) understand how people voted for him the first time, but I cannot understand how any sentient being could even entertain the possibility the second time around. I used to have quite a good relationship with them and our visits were fun. I think I can be cordial to them at the visit, but it makes me sad our relationship will never be the same. I can never view them through the same lens. I think I'd give a young teen a chance to grow and expand her world view before allowing this photograph to damage familial relationships I previously valued. Most 14-year-olds I know have done some pretty ridiculous stuff at that age.
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Post by mollycoddle on Oct 9, 2019 23:30:38 GMT
Civil? Sure. Kind. I hope so. Friends? No.
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Post by Merge on Oct 9, 2019 23:37:37 GMT
So this is where I used to stand: She has no issue with civil unions or giving same sex couples all the state/civil/legal benefits - she just wants to limit the use of the word to heterosexual couples. However, I have learned and grown and matured as hopefully we all do over the span of 20 years. What janeliz says below is true, and I believe what I quoted from Merge is also true. Good hang. But saying it’s about “beliefs” is a dodge. Be friends with people who disagree. Be kind to everyone. Bush led the campaign against your marriage. His two Supreme Court justices dissented in the marriage equality case. To be fair - it’s my understanding that Bush’s beliefs about human rights have changed, and if he were a candidate today, I don’t think he’d be electable because he’s not socially conservative enough. Where I was 20 some years ago, I had actually had fairly minimal exposure to gay people. I'm honestly not sure I even knew they existed until I was in college. I wasn't stupid, just naive. My point is that sometimes when you've grown up and lived a certain way (in my case, marriage is a man and a woman, and it's basically forever) that changing and/or growing takes time. I do not know what Bush's personal views are now, and yes, I disagree with things that he and his government did. I did not disagree with banning gay marriage at the time, but I have since changed my mind. I have also heard that his human rights beliefs have altered, although I have not heard it from his mouth. Perhaps he, too, has grown up. Most of the country did a 180 on gay marriage just in the last 10 years. I'll have to go look up some stats. It's really shocking how quickly attitudes have changed. I do know that the Bushes are/were not fans of Trump. That tells me that they have at least some moral underpinnings.
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Post by peano on Oct 9, 2019 23:50:34 GMT
I am currently wrestling with how to handle seeing a picture of my 14 year old great niece and three friends wearing Trump 2020 hats on Facebook, as I am going home to visit the fams at Thanksgiving. I haven't visited in two years. Granted family is somewhat different from friends, as I didn't get to pick them, but shit, I am feeling so sad and conflicted right now. I can kind of (muscles tensed, gritting my teeth) understand how people voted for him the first time, but I cannot understand how any sentient being could even entertain the possibility the second time around. I used to have quite a good relationship with them and our visits were fun. I think I can be cordial to them at the visit, but it makes me sad our relationship will never be the same. I can never view them through the same lens. I think I'd give a young teen a chance to grow and expand her world view before allowing this photograph to damage familial relationships I previously valued. Most 14-year-olds I know have done some pretty ridiculous stuff at that age. My niece wearing that hat is heartbreaking to me--but she is young and unformed and probably uninformed. Of course, she is not to blame. Her parents, in allowing that photograph of her to remain on Facebook, are. Also, this wasn't the first thing to cause tension in my family. I have been estranged from parts of my family over gun issues since Sandy Hook, and since 2016 when they all decided that voting for Trump was a fanfuckingtastic idea. Other photos with MAGA hats and that kind of thing. I probably should have been more clear about this.
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Oct 10, 2019 0:08:27 GMT
I seriously misread your post and I sincerely apologize for that. Thank you for articulating something I've been unable to express; The oddness of people who don't believe in LGBTQ rights now saying, "be like Ellen." I always appreciate your intelligence and insight! Thank you. I've always enjoyed our interactions here.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Oct 10, 2019 0:29:50 GMT
I seriously misread your post and I sincerely apologize for that. Thank you for articulating something I've been unable to express; The oddness of people who don't believe in LGBTQ rights now saying, "be like Ellen." I always appreciate your intelligence and insight! Thank you. I've always enjoyed our interactions here.
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Post by Legacy Girl on Oct 10, 2019 0:36:39 GMT
I think I'd give a young teen a chance to grow and expand her world view before allowing this photograph to damage familial relationships I previously valued. Most 14-year-olds I know have done some pretty ridiculous stuff at that age. My niece wearing that hat is heartbreaking to me--but she is young and unformed and probably uninformed. Of course, she is not to blame. Her parents, in allowing that photograph of her to remain on Facebook, are. Also, this wasn't the first thing to cause tension in my family. I have been estranged from parts of my family over gun issues since Sandy Hook, and since 2016 when they all decided that voting for Trump was a fanfuckingtastic idea. Other photos with MAGA hats and that kind of thing. I probably should have been more clear about this. I can certainly understand that. Thanks for clarifying.
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