thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 4:46:55 GMT
Some of them they are incredibly boring. Which witnesses would you draw my attention to? I don't see how they could have been boring to anyone invested in keeping our democracy. I would draw your attention to all of the people who testified. They each had a part to tell of the shakedown. Ok. I'll see what I can find on YouTube. Look we are on the same team here. I love democracy and I don't think any elected official is above the law. If Trump has done something criminal he should be convicted. Just because you and many of you on this board have reached different conclusions at this point doesn't mean in the end we want different things. Thank you for being so respectful of every post. I appreciate that this didn't descend into ugliness.
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samantha25
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,909
Jun 27, 2014 19:06:19 GMT
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Post by samantha25 on Dec 4, 2019 4:58:50 GMT
Just look at the data of trump's behavior and don't compare it to others. You are playing a smoke and mirrors defense.
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Post by ntsf on Dec 4, 2019 5:23:44 GMT
there are many many legally subpoenas issued to the president, his staff, his former staff and requesting documents. it is a legal duty for the house to investigate and oversee the actions of the executive branch as needed.. trump is ignoring legal requests.. that is a crime, along with many other things, such as benefiting personally from being president, and soliciting something of value from a foreigner for our election. he is more corrupt on every level. his appointees at agencies have also ignored laws, producing documents, etc.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 15, 2024 20:14:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 5:41:27 GMT
Trump lies. Yeah, Well, neener neener Obama lies too! BOTH SIDES DO EVERYTHINGThe question is HOW MUCH ON EACH SIDEDo you think lying (which I won't even grant you on Obama, but I will grant he could have spoken more precisely) by Obama a few times IS EQUIVALENT to the THOUSANDS OF DOCUMENTED TRUMP LIES!?!?!? If you do, YOU ARE A TROLL!!!!!!
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The Great Carpezio
Pearl Clutcher
Something profound goes here.
Posts: 2,930
Jun 25, 2014 21:50:33 GMT
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Dec 4, 2019 5:51:32 GMT
Yeah, my patience has also runout on the “all politician are corrupt/narcissists/flawed”.
All politicians are human. All politicians, therefore, are flawed, misspeak and make mistakes. But there is a continuum. They aren’t all lumped together on the spectrum.
Seriously? ...trying to equate Trump to, say, Carter? I mean they ALL have controversies and said and did some suspect things, but I don’t think it is because they are all corrupt. Not anymore than other mere mortals. I think most have had honorable intentions and did want to serve the country. There is nothing in Trump’s demeanor, history or non-staged actions that demonstrate this quality. We don’t know what led to each decision or what the intentions were behind all the words for any president, but TRUMP has shown and told us over and over who he is. Why don’t people believe him?
What do do we consider criminal? Things before he was president? How about Trump University? Slum lord? Not paying on contracts? Misuse of funds designated to go to veterans?
....just to start. Don’t know about you, but if I knew a guy with that kind of past in real life, I’d consider him a criminal and someone I would not want to do business with.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 6:10:54 GMT
Trump lies. Yeah, Well, neener neener Obama lies too! BOTH SIDES DO EVERYTHINGThe question is HOW MUCH ON EACH SIDEDo you think lying (which I won't even grant you on Obama, but I will grant he could have spoken more precisely) by Obama a few times IS EQUIVALENT to the THOUSANDS OF DOCUMENTED TRUMP LIES!?!?!? If you do, YOU ARE A TROLL!!!!!! I don't think that is the right question at all. I think there are three questions to ask. The first is: compared to what? I think this is a good question and the one that most of us ask. Trump vs Clinton, Trump vs Obama. I feel like we have canvassed this question pretty well. The second question we should ask is where is your data? I've been given some places to look for more information and I thank you for that, but I have also tried to back up most of my points with examples in return. The last question we should be asking is "what will this decision/person cost me in terms of personal freedom" I feel like this question has also been pointed out tonight as some peas on here are very concerned with checks and balances, without which our government can't function. There are people who only ask one, or two or none of these questions. Which is why they neither like nor dislike Trump. If they feel like their personal freedoms remain the same they are ambivalent, if they feel their personal freedoms are being defended they defend in return and if they feel their personal freedoms are being violated they revolt against the perceived oppression. That swings both ways for whatever party is in power.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 6:23:48 GMT
Yeah, my patience has also runout on the “all politician are corrupt/narcissists/flawed”. All politicians are human. All politicians, therefore, are flawed, misspeak and make mistakes. But there is a continuum. They aren’t all lumped together on the spectrum. Seriously? ...trying to equate Trump to, say, Carter? I mean they ALL have controversies and said and did some suspect things, but I don’t think it is because they are all corrupt. Not anymore than other mere mortals. I think most have had honorable intentions and did want to serve the country. There is nothing in Trump’s demeanor, history or non-staged actions that demonstrate this quality. We don’t know what led to each decision or what the intentions were behind all the words for any president, but TRUMP has shown and told us over and over who he is. Why don’t people believe him? What do do we consider criminal? Things before he was president? How about Trump University? Slum lord? Not paying on contracts? Misuse of funds designated to go to veterans? ....just to start. Don’t know about you, but if I knew a guy with that kind of past in real life, I’d consider him a criminal and someone I would not want to do business with. I wouldn't want to do business with Trump either. Thank you for listing specific incidences of misbehavior. I think you have valid points on all accounts. You are right there is a spectrum, and some really crummy human beings have been president. Can you be a crummy human being and still be a good president, I would argue that is true in the case of Bill Clinton and Calvin Cooldge. Can you be a good person and a crummy president. I would argue Jimmy Carter and John Adam's fall into that category. I guess the point of everything today has been that some people just don't feel as passionately about the President as others, and that should be ok.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 15, 2024 20:14:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 6:28:11 GMT
Trump lies. Yeah, Well, neener neener Obama lies too! BOTH SIDES DO EVERYTHINGThe question is HOW MUCH ON EACH SIDEDo you think lying (which I won't even grant you on Obama, but I will grant he could have spoken more precisely) by Obama a few times IS EQUIVALENT to the THOUSANDS OF DOCUMENTED TRUMP LIES!?!?!? If you do, YOU ARE A TROLL!!!!!! I don't think that is the right question at all. I think there are three questions to ask. The first is: compared to what? I think this is a good question and the one that most of us ask. Trump vs Clinton, Trump vs Obama. I feel like we have canvassed this question pretty well. Obama's handful of lies - COMPARED TO TRUMPS THOUSANDS OF LIES - I thought I was pretty clear about that.The second question we should ask is where is your data? I've been given some places to look for more information and I thank you for that, but I have also tried to back up most of my points with examples in return. The data is in my post. Are you not able to click on a link?The last question we should be asking is "what will this decision/person cost me in terms of personal freedom" I feel like this question has also been pointed out tonight as some peas on here are very concerned with checks and balances, without which our government can't function. There are people who only ask one, or two or none of these questions. Which is why they neither like nor dislike Trump. If they feel like their personal freedoms remain the same they are ambivalent, if they feel their personal freedoms are being defended they defend in return and if they feel their personal freedoms are being violated they revolt against the perceived oppression. That swings both ways for whatever party is in power. Personal freedoms? Like the 180ish Trump appointed life long judges being positioned for LONG stays on the courts (that's why he appoints young judges) to spend the next 20-30 years taking away LGBT people's right to marry another consenting adult? Like taking away a woman's right to determine what other person can use her body? Like taking away legal protections for asylum seekers? Like taking away the personal freedom to have clean water and air if it's more expedient to profits to have dirty water and air?!?!Go read the countless Trump threads. Listen to the intelligence professionals. Ask yourself if you want the country to now allow a POTUS to extort other nations for his own self interest. Ask yourself if you want the US to be as slimy and corrupt and oligarchical and graft-filled as we have always counseled other countries to NOT be.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 6:45:53 GMT
I don't think that is the right question at all. I think there are three questions to ask. The first is: compared to what? I think this is a good question and the one that most of us ask. Trump vs Clinton, Trump vs Obama. I feel like we have canvassed this question pretty well. Obama's handful of lies - COMPARED TO TRUMPS THOUSANDS OF LIES - I thought I was pretty clear about that.The second question we should ask is where is your data? I've been given some places to look for more information and I thank you for that, but I have also tried to back up most of my points with examples in return. The data is in my post. Are you not able to click on a link?The last question we should be asking is "what will this decision/person cost me in terms of personal freedom" I feel like this question has also been pointed out tonight as some peas on here are very concerned with checks and balances, without which our government can't function. There are people who only ask one, or two or none of these questions. Which is why they neither like nor dislike Trump. If they feel like their personal freedoms remain the same they are ambivalent, if they feel their personal freedoms are being defended they defend in return and if they feel their personal freedoms are being violated they revolt against the perceived oppression. That swings both ways for whatever party is in power. Personal freedoms? Like the 180 Trump appointed judges taking away LGBT people's right to marry another consenting adult? Like taking away a woman's right to determine what other person can use her body? Like taking away legal protections for asylum seekers? Like taking away the personal freedom to have clean water and air if it's more expedient to profits to have dirty water and air?!?!Go read the countless Trump threads. Listen to the intelligence professionals. Ask yourself if you want the country to now allow a POTUS to extort other nations for his own self interest. Ask yourself if you want the US to be as slimy and corrupt and oligarchical and graft-filled as we have always counseled other countries to NOT be. I didn't realize the blue letters were a link. I thought you just changed the font for emphasis. My bad. Look I'm not defending Trump. You obviously feel like he is taking away your liberties. That is why you feel so passionately about him. You have every right to feel that way. I'm just saying not everyone feels the same way and part of the reason isn't always that they are stupid or misinformed maybe they don't feel like their rights are being infringed on. Or maybe the policies that are important to you aren't the same. Let me give you an example an owner of a gas station franchise will feel differently about fossil fuels, but maybe this person is LGBTQ. So the question now arises, what should they support? A president who lowered the cost of doing business and isn't taking action to actively destroy it or a president who has, as you pointed out, appointed judges that may be less sympathetic to their lifestyle choices. I think this is the very dichotomy a lot of Americans find themselves in. They can neither dislike fully or like fully our current president. I don't think that makes them bad people.
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thwarth
Full Member
Posts: 152
Sept 15, 2018 0:33:00 GMT
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Post by thwarth on Dec 4, 2019 6:55:49 GMT
Again, thank you for being so respectful. I've got to get some sleep. I'll try to watch some of the hearings and I'd love to come back and chat if we can keep things nice. Thanks again for a good discussion. Good night.
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Post by LiLi on Dec 4, 2019 7:02:42 GMT
Let me give you an example an owner of a gas station franchise will feel differently about fossil fuels, but maybe this person is LGBTQ. So the question now arises, what should they support? A president who lowered the cost of doing business and isn't taking action to actively destroy it or a president who has, as you pointed out, appointed judges that may be less sympathetic to their lifestyle choices. I think this is the very dichotomy a lot of Americans find themselves in. They can neither dislike fully or like fully our current president. I don't think that makes them bad people. There is no question to me, that a protection of a person's civil rights is number one. No dichotomy there. If you think that making sure fellow humans don't have equal rights, is ever ok, and calling it "less sympathetic" this is a difference in MORALS. Comparing this with the cost of business? Yeah, no. So, yeah, we can't see eye to eye. Our very basic morals are different. Which is the only way anyone could make the comparisons that you are making.
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Post by Merge on Dec 4, 2019 13:42:44 GMT
Let me give you an example an owner of a gas station franchise will feel differently about fossil fuels, but maybe this person is LGBTQ. So the question now arises, what should they support? A president who lowered the cost of doing business and isn't taking action to actively destroy it or a president who has, as you pointed out, appointed judges that may be less sympathetic to their lifestyle choices. I think this is the very dichotomy a lot of Americans find themselves in. They can neither dislike fully or like fully our current president. I don't think that makes them bad people. There is no question to me, that a protection of a person's civil rights is number one. No dichotomy there. If you think that making sure fellow humans don't have equal rights, is ever ok, and calling it "less sympathetic" this is a difference in MORALS. Comparing this with the cost of business? Yeah, no. So, yeah, we can't see eye to eye. Our very basic morals are different. Which is the only way anyone could make the comparisons that you are making. There is no point in "discussing" this with someone who refers to being gay or being a female who wants bodily autonomy as "lifestyle choices" to which a judge might or might not be sympathetic. Nor is there any point in arguing with someone who claims she is paying attention, but also straight up admits she hasn't watched any of the impeachment hearings nor read the IC report, and claims she is not willfully ignorant, but has also made up her mind that everything in the hearings and report is subjective and people will see it how they want to.
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Post by peano on Dec 4, 2019 13:45:48 GMT
Trump is 3 years into his term, and his administration has over 90 criminal indictments, over 25 criminal convictions, and more than 5 criminal prison sentences. He has surpassed Regan AND Nixon. Mueller report revealed the instances of criminality. Trump violating the Constitution is a criminal act. President Obama’s 8 year term, ZERO on all accounts. HRC wasn’t even potus (yet people bring her up like she was) was investigated thoroughly (Benghazi 4 times), emails for months and months, and not once was any criminality found. She complied with every request to sit to be question, responded to all requests by republicans. So factually, she is not nor was a criminal. Has Trump been convicted of a crime, yet? I believe the accusation was that Trump is a criminal. My point is this, factually Trump isn't a criminal either. Neither was Obama, but that doesn't mean his administration didn't have problems. Solyndra I'm looking at you. My point is lots of people feel all politicians are corrupt. Look you are barking up the wrong tree if you think I love our current president, but that doesn't mean I can't try to view all our leaders with the same lens. I want integrity from those we elect, but I'm not naive enough to think I will get it. This is the type of statement taken straight from Trump's playbook. "Lots of people feel, a lot of people say..." It isn't facts. It's feelings. (Heck, it's not even really feelings. It's just a belief that gets manipulated into being "truthy") Feelings are not truth. Does corruption happen in politics? Of course. Are all politicians corrupt? Of course not. Black and white thinking is the playground of the lazy who don't want to work at finding the truth.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Dec 4, 2019 13:53:02 GMT
being the first president to totally deny producing any documents or witnesses in defiance of legal requirements... the obstruction of justice will tear the constitution apart. [br I may be revealing my ignorance here, but do you have to release documents if they haven't been legally subpoenaed? My understanding was that this was an impeachment inquiry, not an impeachment itself, which means that everything has been done at by request of Congress, however that request has no legal sway. If Trump chooses to ignore their request it's not illegal. Again I may have misunderstood the situation. I imagine the actual impeachment will involve subpoenas and then withholding documents would be illegal. Again if I'm wrong, please let me know, kindly. Obama released 125,000 documents related to Benghazi. Trump has released 0. Why doesn't that look completely suspicious to you?
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Post by jeremysgirl on Dec 4, 2019 13:58:59 GMT
Let me give you an example an owner of a gas station franchise will feel differently about fossil fuels, but maybe this person is LGBTQ. So the question now arises, what should they support? A president who lowered the cost of doing business and isn't taking action to actively destroy it or a president who has, as you pointed out, appointed judges that may be less sympathetic to their lifestyle choices. I think this is the very dichotomy a lot of Americans find themselves in. They can neither dislike fully or like fully our current president. I don't think that makes them bad people. There is no question to me, that a protection of a person's civil rights is number one. No dichotomy there. If you think that making sure fellow humans don't have equal rights, is ever ok, and calling it "less sympathetic" this is a difference in MORALS. Comparing this with the cost of business? Yeah, no. So, yeah, we can't see eye to eye. Our very basic morals are different. Which is the only way anyone could make the comparisons that you are making. I agree. Money should never trump dignity.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 15, 2024 20:14:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 14:59:35 GMT
There is no question to me, that a protection of a person's civil rights is number one. No dichotomy there. If you think that making sure fellow humans don't have equal rights, is ever ok, and calling it "less sympathetic" this is a difference in MORALS. Comparing this with the cost of business? Yeah, no. So, yeah, we can't see eye to eye. Our very basic morals are different. Which is the only way anyone could make the comparisons that you are making. There is no point in "discussing" this with someone who refers to being gay or being a female who wants bodily autonomy as "lifestyle choices" to which a judge might or might not be sympathetic. Nor is there any point in arguing with someone who claims she is paying attention, but also straight up admits she hasn't watched any of the impeachment hearings nor read the IC report, and claims she is not willfully ignorant, but has also made up her mind that everything in the hearings and report is subjective and people will see it how they want to. Exactly. Only an entirely privileged person who has never had their right to exist, marry, not be harassed for holding hands w/an so, not be red-zoned, not have to live in areas w/poor health outcomes due to air & water, etc would put up personal freedoms and dignity against staying in a particular (climate-killing) job. Jobs can be changed. Being LGBT, black, having debilitating medical issues, etc. cannot be.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Dec 4, 2019 15:20:26 GMT
s. If you are looking for a reason to impeach, his motives for withholding aid appear to be a quid pro quo. Which is self serving. If you are looking for a reason not to impeach his motives into looking into a corrupt government seem like a prudent action before releasing taxpayer money. So depending on what you want to see you will see it. There isn't really enough evidence either way.are you FOR REAL?!? There is clear evidence. He withheld aid to one of our allies that CONGRESS ALREADY APPROVED. And in so doing, HE ABUSED THE POWERS OF THE PRESIDENCY. It doesn't even matter WHY he did it (well, it does matter, but not for the purposes of deciding whether it was an abuse or not). He interfered with already-approved monies that Congress had appropriated for a specific purpose (to assist one of our allies, a country in a war with one of our enemies). This is a CLEAR breach of the separation of powers and overstepping the bounds of the Executive Branch of government. (Not to mention ANY of the other crap about Biden, Burisma, etc. NOT 'corruption in Ukraine' which was NEVER mentioned in any of the communications, but BURISMA and BIDEN.) Don't engage...not worth it. Suspect poster. ^^^ I wish I had read farther in the thread before my knee-jerk response... the responses in this thread are waaaay to saccharine-sweet and nicey-nicey to actually be a brand new / sincere poster IMO. I will do the best thing for my mental health, which is to block-- to avoid any additional temptation to toss more gasoline on a dumpster fire.
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Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,313
Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Dec 4, 2019 18:28:17 GMT
Don't engage...not worth it. Suspect poster. I wish I had read farther in the thread before my knee-jerk response... the responses in this thread are waaaay to saccharine-sweet and nicey-nicey to actually be a brand new / sincere poster IMO. I will do the best thing for my mental health, which is to block-- to avoid any additional temptation to toss more gasoline on a dumpster fire. This kind of makes me sad. Have you read the Christmas card exchange thread? Several posts where Peas are thanking her for the cards "Becky" made them (I assume her daughter. On that thread it seems thwarth is a genuine pea with a good heart. I have never engaged with her but based on the discussion I read here I did look at her posting history. There is nothing suspect in it. I would suggest reading that thread to see she does seem to be the real thing guys.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Dec 4, 2019 18:41:36 GMT
I would suggest reading that thread to see she does seem to be the real thing thanks for your comment. It just seems to me like someone who is a 'real' and regular poster here would know there are REGULARLY threads about DT and all other sorts of political topics on this board. This poster has made comments, on this particular thread, that make it seem like they've never even seen any of them. THAT is what seems suspect to me.
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Post by lucyg on Dec 4, 2019 19:11:12 GMT
The fact that you would describe Barack Obama as “corrupt and a liar” tells me all I need to know about you. And don’t kid yourself that any of it is complimentary. Oh dear. That was a bit harsh. I'd be happy to explain individual incidents where I feel like President Obama didn't show his best self, if you'd like to hear. However that's not the subject of this thread. I was simply trying to point out that not everybody loves Trump, and not everybody hates Trump. There are a lot of people like me who think all the politicians are self serving. I think a lot of people would have voted for someone else if there were other, better options. Is there no room for that kind of opinion in political discourse? Yes, it was a bit harsh. Sorry. But as long as you are comparing Obama’s “lies and corruption” to Trump’s LIES AND CORRUPTION, I am not going to be able to take you totally seriously. I’ve read through some of your subsequent posts, and I have to say, I’m a little surprised that on the one hand, you claim there is no real evidence to impeach Trump on, and the other hand, you admit to not having followed the impeachment inquiry. Really, are you sure you aren’t trolling us? If you are still confused about impeachment, perhaps you’d like to read this Twitter thread from Neal Katyal, former acting Solicitor General of the United States (and I believe he was only “acting” because Mitch McConnell refused to bring his confirmation up for a vote). He breaks down the most important points made in the impeachment report. It may help make the situation a little clearer for you. If that’s what you’re looking for.
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Post by mollycoddle on Dec 4, 2019 20:03:25 GMT
As one of their own? We’re they hit in the head with a heavy object? What about this insanely rich, pampered man makes them feel like he is one of their own? His big bag of bullshit. I don't know that they think of him as one of their own, but he says things that they believe, and insults people they don't like. He's their guy, they think. He knows exactly what to say to them.
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Post by Merge on Dec 4, 2019 20:24:31 GMT
As one of their own? We’re they hit in the head with a heavy object? What about this insanely rich, pampered man makes them feel like he is one of their own? His big bag of bullshit. I don't know that they think of him as one of their own, but he says things that they believe, and insults people they don't like. He's their guy, they think. He knows exactly what to say to them. Yes, and anyone who was incensed by Obama’s comment about some voters clinging to guns and religion should note what heavy lip service Trump pays to both of these things. He knows what to say, and it wasn’t false when Obama pointed it out.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Dec 4, 2019 20:41:23 GMT
There is plenty of valid, factual evidence to back up the impeachment. Provided by very well respected, professional Americas serving in government. It’s not a matter of “ you’ll see what you want to see”. 🙄🙄🙄 Trumps 894th excuse for holding aid was against what congress already approved. Bipartisan Congress approved, meaning they were satisfied with doling our the aid. And his excuses as to ensure that they were not corrupt as a whole has been disproven repeatedly, as trump was only interested in having Ukraine verbally announce an investigation into Biden/Burisma and no one or nothing else. How is Adam Schiff self serving??? How could this possibly be self serving for him? What’s in it for him? This impeachment is 100% based on trumps willingness to ignore the Constitution of the United States. It is not a political attack. I pray that you read up on actual facts. Will you really pray for me? If there is enough evidence for impeachment and it is so overwhelming why hasn't Nancy Pelosi called for a vote? You know he will be impeached in the house. Then it will go to the Senate. It seems it would be in the best interests of the democratic party to get this wrapped up quickly as cocaine Mitch could draw this out into campaign season which could be a detriment to Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders who would need to be present at the hearings or risk not having a vote. I truly feel that if there was enough evidence the Democrats would have moved on it by now. It's bad PR to draw this out. The longer it goes the more Americans will lose interest and patience. A lot of people feel like we've been down this road before with the Muller Report. Again I'm not saying Trump is innocent. I just don't think there is enough solid, non hearsay, evidence. If you think that there is not enough evidence (to date) then you are not reading the testimony from the people who actually testified.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Dec 4, 2019 20:45:04 GMT
Trump is 3 years into his term, and his administration has over 90 criminal indictments, over 25 criminal convictions, and more than 5 criminal prison sentences. He has surpassed Regan AND Nixon. Mueller report revealed the instances of criminality. Trump violating the Constitution is a criminal act. President Obama’s 8 year term, ZERO on all accounts. HRC wasn’t even potus (yet people bring her up like she was) was investigated thoroughly (Benghazi 4 times), emails for months and months, and not once was any criminality found. She complied with every request to sit to be question, responded to all requests by republicans. So factually, she is not nor was a criminal. Has Trump been convicted of a crime, yet? I believe the accusation was that Trump is a criminal. My point is this, factually Trump isn't a criminal either. Neither was Obama, but that doesn't mean his administration didn't have problems. Solyndra I'm looking at you. My point is lots of people feel all politicians are corrupt. Look you are barking up the wrong tree if you think I love our current president, but that doesn't mean I can't try to view all our leaders with the same lens. I want integrity from those we elect, but I'm not naive enough to think I will get it. trump’s DOJ has prevented him from being criminally charged, by stating that a sitting potus cannot be convicted of a crime while in office, but the evidence show that acts of criminality are there.
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casii
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,466
Jun 29, 2014 14:40:44 GMT
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Post by casii on Dec 4, 2019 21:07:00 GMT
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Post by hop2 on Dec 4, 2019 21:24:56 GMT
Anyone who considers Trump an "average politician" is either willfully ignorant or simply isn't paying attention. The sun doesn't rise and set with the president, but never has there been one who represented such a clear and present danger to our democracy. Trump's contempt for the constitution and the rule of law far surpasses any business-as-usual politics, and if you are aware of a huge swath of people who don't see this, I hope you'll direct them to read both a history book and a newspaper. I don't consider myself willfully ignorant. I'm willing to hear your case. In what way is Trump endangering democracy? That is not sarcasm, I am interested in a thoughtful dialogue if you are. He mocked the constitution & called it fake, while NOT adhering to it despite taking an oath to uphold it. www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/4055162002How does not upholding his oath and not adhering to the constitution and 1/2 the country ignoring that NOT endanger our democracy since the constitution is the cornerstone of our democracy? Negate one part of the constitution by simply ignoring it the rest of the SAME document can also easily be swept aside. How that doesn’t bother people amazes me.
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Post by hop2 on Dec 4, 2019 21:27:11 GMT
being the first president to totally deny producing any documents or witnesses in defiance of legal requirements... the obstruction of justice will tear the constitution apart. already did that by ignoring it for 3 years. He should have been taken to task for not adhering to the emoluments clause at the beginning of his term.
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Post by hop2 on Dec 4, 2019 21:47:32 GMT
One last thing on the subject of ‘every president lies’
Maybe I’m not old enough to remember properly but what are Jimmy Carter’s lies?
He was flawed, he was too nice a man to be an effective president at the time he was president. Slightly indecisive as well, adding to the ineffectiveness. But I defy you to find a willing lie ( much less ‘thug’ LOL Jimmy Carter a ‘thug’ hahahahaha )
I’m sure he misspoke and I’m not saying he never lied in his entire life as a human being, but find a documented presidential lie from Jimmy Carter to the nation.
Maybe I’m too young to remember ‘Jimmy Carter’s vast Lies?
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Post by mollycoddle on Dec 4, 2019 22:00:36 GMT
His big bag of bullshit. I don't know that they think of him as one of their own, but he says things that they believe, and insults people they don't like. He's their guy, they think. He knows exactly what to say to them. Yes, and anyone who was incensed by Obama’s comment about some voters clinging to guns and religion should note what heavy lip service Trump pays to both of these things. He knows what to say, and it wasn’t false when Obama pointed it out. Yeah, Obama's remark was true, and hit a little too close to home for those voters.
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peasquared
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,453
Jul 6, 2014 23:59:59 GMT
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Post by peasquared on Dec 4, 2019 23:04:33 GMT
I live in a rural, predominantly agriculture area. One that has been very hard with Trump's trade war. The people around me will ramble on and on how great Trump is because he's taking away all these "Free handouts". When asked if they are turning down the Ag payouts then if they are so against handouts, they just get all confused and mumble how it's not the same. OH, really??? If you meet some who actually complain about Trump and his racism and demeaning tweets, etc and ask them who on the Democratic side they are considering, their mouths drop open and respond that they have to vote for Trump! When asked why, they say, "Well, because he's the Republican." I just don't understand. They cut off their nose to spite their face.
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