Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 16:26:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 16:44:00 GMT
There are situations I see in the news that is 100% uncalled for degree of force. What makes this excessive. I watched this video 5 times before I made this post, what I see is him approach the officer, and the officer take his right hand and push him aside. It didn't (to me) even seem like that big of a push, but he definitely pushed him to the side with one hand. The results were awful, but the push "to me" didn't seem like an excessive use of force. Assuming he was told to "get out of the way" and he didn't, what was their recourse? Other then the injuries being terrible, what "excessive force" was used with a one handed push out of the way? Do people want zero physical contact at this point? Physical contact should be a LAST resort. This cop pushed that man within seconds of encountering him. Would you push someone at the store who was in your way? I doubt it. You would have found another way to solve the problem. That cop could have, too. Do you remember the Karen screaming and pushing heavy equipment at a worker at the mailbox store a few weeks back? Or the MANY Karens who scream and yell at retail workers. Why do we expect retail workers to keep their cool and not assault violent raging customers but we don't expect THE TRAINED COPS WITH GUNS TO DO THAT AND BETTER?!?!?!?!?!?
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 5, 2020 16:46:52 GMT
I wrote this three times and chickened about posting it. Then decided to go ahead as we need to be open and honest here about how we feel. I know I am going to be lambasted and labeled with ugly words, but please look at the video with an open mind, think of the policeman in question as a son or brother and watch again. You would find excuses for him then just like you are now finding fault with him now because he is a policeman. I hate that this happened and it is a rough world out there. Yes they were rough with the gentleman, BUT if someone gets in my face to yell at me like he was, I am not apt to act peacefully. Then I saw an officer get on his mic and I hope it was to call in for help for him. There were voices saying get a medic, it might have been an officer or it might have been another protestor. I am not saying he asked for it, but what was the gentleman expecting to happen? The police line had to move forward, did he think that by getting in the way he would be able to stop it? He would not get out of the way. He was pushed, but how hard? The fact he tripped and fell could have been cause he was pushed too hard, or could have been cause he stumbled, or there might have been a crack in the pavement. I am not supporting anything I saw there, nor am I saying he asked for it, but please look again at the video and see if you can see other ways to interpret what you are seeing. I am with you on this. This elderly man was grabbing at the Police. The Police are under so.much.pressure. Police are getting shot and killed. They have very little time to think/react. Yes, they pushed him. But it was a push. I am sure they had no intention of him getting so injured. He should not be grabbing at Police! That man put himself in danger. And they didn’t check to see if he was okay—-they went first, to protect their own. If you cannot handle the stress or pressures of your job—then get out.
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Post by gar on Jun 5, 2020 16:48:45 GMT
Assuming he was told to "get out of the way" and he didn't, what was their recourse? Walk round him? Maybe?
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jun 5, 2020 16:48:49 GMT
There are situations I see in the news that is 100% uncalled for degree of force. What makes this excessive. I watched this video 5 times before I made this post, what I see is him approach the officer, and the officer take his right hand and push him aside. It didn't (to me) even seem like that big of a push, but he definitely pushed him to the side with one hand. The results were awful, but the push "to me" didn't seem like an excessive use of force. Assuming he was told to "get out of the way" and he didn't, what was their recourse? Other then the injuries being terrible, what "excessive force" was used with a one handed push out of the way? Do people want zero physical contact at this point? There was no reason as presented in the video to touch the man. You have no idea how hard he pushed him, clearly hard enough to knock him over. So yes, in this situation force = excessive force. This is the text book definition of assault. If someone comes up to you in public and pushes you hard enough to to fall and bleed from the ear do you want them charged with assault? Police are supposed to serve and protect — where is either? the officer never even STOPPED- just shoved the guy out of the way. All he had to do, if he didn't want to talk to the man (and we have NO idea what the man said- perhaps he was disoriented, etc.) was step AROUND him and ignore him. He didn't have to shove him or touch him at all. eta: Ditto to gar . The man's fall was not like a soccer flop- it wasn't for show, it wasn't staged. He clearly was pushed very hard, and got injured. For no purpose that could be discerned from the video. eta2: if the man was older / elderly (hard to tell from that angle), the reason that would matter, IMO, is the 'disoriented' factor, and the fact that typically, older people are more frail physically. It was uncalled for no matter what the age, but if the police officer had looked AT the person instead of just 'through' them... nevermind, all those reasons (health, mental state, etc.) could also apply if the person was younger. I got nothing. Except 'respect your elders' and that it was uncalled for no matter what the person's age.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,862
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Jun 5, 2020 17:27:31 GMT
I wrote this three times and chickened about posting it. Then decided to go ahead as we need to be open and honest here about how we feel. I know I am going to be lambasted and labeled with ugly words, but please look at the video with an open mind, think of the policeman in question as a son or brother and watch again. You would find excuses for him then just like you are now finding fault with him now because he is a policeman. I hate that this happened and it is a rough world out there. Yes they were rough with the gentleman, BUT if someone gets in my face to yell at me like he was, I am not apt to act peacefully. Then I saw an officer get on his mic and I hope it was to call in for help for him. There were voices saying get a medic, it might have been an officer or it might have been another protestor. I am not saying he asked for it, but what was the gentleman expecting to happen? The police line had to move forward, did he think that by getting in the way he would be able to stop it? He would not get out of the way. He was pushed, but how hard? The fact he tripped and fell could have been cause he was pushed too hard, or could have been cause he stumbled, or there might have been a crack in the pavement. I am not supporting anything I saw there, nor am I saying he asked for it, but please look again at the video and see if you can see other ways to interpret what you are seeing. I am with you on this. This elderly man was grabbing at the Police. The Police are under so.much.pressure. Police are getting shot and killed. They have very little time to think/react. Yes, they pushed him. But it was a push. I am sure they had no intention of him getting so injured. He should not be grabbing at Police! That man put himself in danger. The man did not grab the police officer. What are you talking about? Also, what do you think about the initial departmental statement that the elderly man “tripped and fell” in spite of a video showing he was pushed? When the man was on the ground bleeding and the officers just kept on walking, how did you feel? Enough with the excuses, please. Just please. Enough already. Law enforcement officers who EVERYBODY knows face risks and have to make split-second decisions every single day, are to enforce laws. That’s why they’re called law enforcement officers. Enforce. Not abuse. Enforce. Not unjustifiably injure, maim or kill.
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Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,314
Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Jun 5, 2020 17:34:00 GMT
I guess I don't see a shove out of the way by police in riot gear in the middle of advancing "excessive". I do see kneeling on the neck of someone already in handcuffs excessive, I see shooting someone in the back as excessive. I am not saying that "force" wasn't used. We can certainly go back and forth on the definition of excessive vs acceptable. Do I think it was acceptable force, my gut says no, but I wasn't there either so it's easy for me to say from the comfort of my home.
I am more upset that when someone wanted to stop and check on him, and that person was pulled back.
True. Thing is we all make the assumptions about people. If I am walking down the street and see a middle age lady out walking her dog coming towards me I would say "hi" with a smile as we pass each other. If I see a middle aged man doing the same, I would make a wider birth (due to dog presence) and probably not say anything. If I see a three 20 something men heading towards me, I admit I get nervous, and try and figure a way out not to have to pass directly by them (unless i know them).
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moodyblue
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,276
Location: Western Illinois
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2014 21:07:23 GMT
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Post by moodyblue on Jun 5, 2020 17:35:19 GMT
I’ve seen the video multiple times and it’s horrifying to see. And then the image of blood that was almost instantaneous and officers walking past him just adds to the shock and horror.
I am very concerned about how many images of police being aggressive or downright brutal we are seeing at these protests. And we are seeing them because there are lots of news people there covering these assaults - and sometimes the reporters are the victims of the assaults.
A couple thoughts: These are happening while people are watching. How many are happening that we haven’t seen? How many happen every day under other circumstances? Police officers who would assault citizens while they know there are observers everywhere - what are they doing when we don’t see them? Someone lied about the man tripping and falling, maybe many someones. If there weren’t video, it would be one man's word against a whole bunch of police officers. Want to bet that the police would get away with it in that case?
Not all police officers are bad cops. But any cop who closes his/her eyes or doesn’t speak up or do the right thing when he/she sees the bad actions, cannot claim to be a good cop either.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 23, 2024 16:26:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 17:55:02 GMT
His faculties are fine. He's a peace activist from a suburb of Buffalo. Buffalo NewsThe question was hypothetical, though. Oops sorry. I missed that. I work about a minute from here - I can see city hall from my office - and have watched the daily situations unfold. We are deluged with info here and I didn't want anyone to think he was disabled. There is warnings of another protest tonight starting between 3-4 and we will be closing our office early. The group that is "running it" is being described by local activists as sketchy.
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on Jun 5, 2020 18:12:43 GMT
Oh my god, that's horrific!
That could be my father, your father, or a husband. Your brother.
And they shoved him, and left him for dead. They had no idea if bleeding from the ear meant he was dying. And they didn't care.
Is that what Protect & Serve means?
I feel sick and I'm holding back tears. How can anyone defend that?!
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 23, 2024 16:26:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 18:38:59 GMT
Cable vs. reality.
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Post by christine58 on Jun 5, 2020 18:41:31 GMT
Press conference right now about it.
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Post by christine58 on Jun 5, 2020 18:42:02 GMT
@anmore. Be safe.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 23, 2024 16:26:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 18:47:23 GMT
Thanks. I worked from home today. Hopefully it stays peaceful as we are only 6 miles down the road from City Hall.
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Post by pierogi on Jun 5, 2020 18:47:59 GMT
Why so much emphasis on the fact he was elderly? Whether it was a 20 year old approaching, or a 99 year old approaches should it make a difference? Should deference be given due to age? Would we be more understanding of the police action if the person was 19? I just hate all of this. Most people have a level of respect for the elderly in the way they speak and treat them. An elderly person, because of their age, does not have the same balance or strength that a much younger person has, pushing them the way we see in the video, has far greater consequence for an older person than a younger one. Not to mention that it was a very sudden gesture, Sudden actions can catch people unaware far quicker when one is older than when you are younger. You're reactions are quicker when you're younger. I'm frankly stunned that someone had to explain this.
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Jun 5, 2020 18:55:46 GMT
The question was hypothetical, though. Oops sorry. I missed that. I work about a minute from here - I can see city hall from my office - and have watched the daily situations unfold. We are deluged with info here and I didn't want anyone to think he was disabled. There is warnings of another protest tonight starting between 3-4 and we will be closing our office early. The group that is "running it" is being described by local activists as sketchy. It’s fine. Probably should’ve made it clearer I meant it that way. I had just been thinking it’s not outside the realm of possibility for police to be confronted with a scenario like that, at some point. Stay safe, anmore.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 23, 2024 16:26:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 19:03:04 GMT
This isn't good. Emergency response team resigns. link
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Post by wallyagain on Jun 5, 2020 19:04:22 GMT
My husband deals with angry customers all the time (yes, screaming and cursing) and if he pushed someone and they fell like this, he’d be in jail. Why on earth does anyone think this behaviour is acceptable because they are a police officer?
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 5, 2020 19:08:37 GMT
This isn't good. Emergency response team resigns. linkResigned from ERT, but still employed? Lame.
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Post by femalebusiness on Jun 5, 2020 19:22:04 GMT
My husband is an old man.
About a year ago my husband and I were coming home from the grocery store. We came down the street behind us to circle around so we could enter our driveway positioned to unload the groceries. As we came down the street there was a bunch of cop cars. I have never seen that in my neighborhood before. At one house directly behind us there were six or eight cops standing on the front lawn, laughing and joking around with each other. Whatever the incident, it was clearly over and they were waiting for something.
I was driving and my husband was in the passenger seat. His side of the car was where the cops were. I stopped in the street and my husband rolled down his window and politely said, I live on the next street over, could you tell me what is going on? A bitch with a badge put her hand on her gun, advanced toward our car and said, You don't need to know and if you don't leave I'll arrest you.
My husband told her to go fuck herself and stop acting like a two year old. We left and went around the block to our home. All her fellow cops were laughing at her badass posturing. She was too stupid to know they were laughing at her because she looked ridiculous. Not one of them told her to knock it off.
All she had to say was, we can't talk about the investigation right now but be assured there is no danger and the situation is under control.
My white neighbor across the street from me went around the block and the cops invited him to come onto the lawn and stand with them and gave him all of the details of the drug bust. The people busted were middle class white people.
So if anyone wonders why I am so strident with my condemnation of cops this is just one small example of many, many encounters with them, and this was a nothing compared to some of the things my husband has put up with over the decades. And that friends, is why I would never call a cop for assistance.
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Post by gar on Jun 5, 2020 19:29:56 GMT
Press conference right now about it. The one where he said that he thought George Floyd would be looking down thinking what a great day it was for America? 😬😟
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Post by tara on Jun 5, 2020 19:30:03 GMT
I wrote this three times and chickened about posting it. Then decided to go ahead as we need to be open and honest here about how we feel. I know I am going to be lambasted and labeled with ugly words, but please look at the video with an open mind, think of the policeman in question as a son or brother and watch again. You would find excuses for him then just like you are now finding fault with him now because he is a policeman. I hate that this happened and it is a rough world out there. Yes they were rough with the gentleman, BUT if someone gets in my face to yell at me like he was, I am not apt to act peacefully. Then I saw an officer get on his mic and I hope it was to call in for help for him. There were voices saying get a medic, it might have been an officer or it might have been another protestor. I am not saying he asked for it, but what was the gentleman expecting to happen? The police line had to move forward, did he think that by getting in the way he would be able to stop it? He would not get out of the way. He was pushed, but how hard? The fact he tripped and fell could have been cause he was pushed too hard, or could have been cause he stumbled, or there might have been a crack in the pavement. I am not supporting anything I saw there, nor am I saying he asked for it, but please look again at the video and see if you can see other ways to interpret what you are seeing. I have no words. Literally! My jaw is hanging on the floor!
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Post by Skellinton on Jun 5, 2020 19:32:32 GMT
This isn't good. Emergency response team resigns. linkResigned in support of the officer that shoved the elderly gentleman. Good riddance to all of them. It is just too bad they can’t be fired or without pay as well.
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twinsmomfla99
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,118
Jun 26, 2014 13:42:47 GMT
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Post by twinsmomfla99 on Jun 5, 2020 19:32:45 GMT
there was no need for excessive force in this situation. There are situations I see in the news that is 100% uncalled for degree of force. What makes this excessive. I watched this video 5 times before I made this post, what I see is him approach the officer, and the officer take his right hand and push him aside. It didn't (to me) even seem like that big of a push, but he definitely pushed him to the side with one hand. The results were awful, but the push "to me" didn't seem like an excessive use of force. Assuming he was told to "get out of the way" and he didn't, what was their recourse?Other then the injuries being terrible, what "excessive force" was used with a one handed push out of the way? Do people want zero physical contact at this point? Their recourse was to step around him. There was no "crowd" that prevented them from moving forward. They seemed quite capable of stepping around him once he was on the ground? That kind of defeats the argument that they had no other choice.
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Post by christine58 on Jun 5, 2020 19:33:28 GMT
Press conference right now about it. The one where he said that he thought George Floyd would be looking down thinking what a great day it was for America? 😬😟 NO...local press conference...I live east of Buffalo
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Post by epeanymous on Jun 5, 2020 19:38:51 GMT
This isn't good. Emergency response team resigns. linkResigned in support of the officer that shoved the elderly gentleman. Good riddance to all of them. It is just too bad they can’t be fired or without pay as well. It does seem really troubling to me that police would "resign" in support of this use of force, but it does also explain why they were all stepping around a gentleman bleeding on the ground.
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moodyblue
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,276
Location: Western Illinois
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2014 21:07:23 GMT
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Post by moodyblue on Jun 5, 2020 19:40:16 GMT
This isn't good. Emergency response team resigns. linkResigned from ERT, but still employed? Lame. Well, that’s a statement about them too, then. We can all see what happened. If they think it’s okay or excusable, then they shouldn’t be on that team. Shouldn’t be cops either. This is a demonstration of what’s wrong with policing - bad actions AND then those actions are supported by the others on the force.
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Post by shevy on Jun 5, 2020 19:41:43 GMT
NO...local press conference...I live east of Buffalo Interested as of what they will say!
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Post by christine58 on Jun 5, 2020 19:57:29 GMT
NO...local press conference...I live east of Buffalo Interested as of what they will say! In a nutshell the county exec. was not happy over what happened last night. He has spoken to the victim but did not disclose in detail what that conversation entailed. Someone told him about the ERT resignations and I think he was taken back by it... News is on here in about 5 mins..will try and update this. (My phone rang while the presser was on)
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Post by tara on Jun 5, 2020 20:02:47 GMT
Most people have a level of respect for the elderly in the way they speak and treat them. An elderly person, because of their age, does not have the same balance or strength that a much younger person has, pushing them the way we see in the video, has far greater consequence for an older person than a younger one. Not to mention that it was a very sudden gesture, Sudden actions can catch people unaware far quicker when one is older than when you are younger. You're reactions are quicker when you're younger. I'm frankly stunned that someone had to explain this. You are not the only one!
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pinklady
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,066
Nov 14, 2016 23:47:03 GMT
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Post by pinklady on Jun 5, 2020 20:06:26 GMT
Resigned in support of the officer that shoved the elderly gentleman. Good riddance to all of them. It is just too bad they can’t be fired or without pay as well. It does seem really troubling to me that police would "resign" in support of this use of force, but it does also explain why they were all stepping around a gentleman bleeding on the ground. In my opinion law enforcement has a “blue” problem. They back the “bad apples” by either not speaking out or sticking up for them. It’s disgusting.
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