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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 22:17:49 GMT
There is a lot to process these day. Almost too much to be honest.
One series of events has me wondering what the endgame will be. And that has me asking two questions.
1. When will it be enough/has a pandora box been opened?
2. When the dust settles what will have changed?
I’m talking about the removal of statues and the changing of names of schools, military bases, buildings to name a few.
It started with generals of the confederate army. And this movement has spread to include.
Two schools in Northern California are changing their names because they are named after Thomas Jefferson and George Washington.
Statues of Christopher Columbus are being removed.
Last night in SF the following statues were toppled.
* Junipero Serra
* Francis Scott Key
* Ulysses S. Grant
A Jared Yates Sexton wrote a 33 tweet thread that put Abraham Lincoln and Woodrow Wilson on the potential list of toppled statues etc.
Once all the statues are toppled and the names are changed from these individuals will that be enough?
Or is the next step to eliminate their monuments? Like the Washington Monument, Jefferson and Lincoln Memorials in DC.
Destroy Mt. Rushmore.
Take those who’s names are on the Declaration of Independence and Constitution off?
Stop playing the “Star Spangled Banner”?
In the case of Junipero Serra destroy the chain of missions up the coast of California?
For those that are past presidents, put a line through their names or remove their names as past presidents all together?
And once the dust finally settles from all this elimination , what lasting changes will come from this? How will it fix the problems of racism in this country?
Sometimes I think in a rush to correct a long standing wrong we rush to far to the other side instead of finding the right balance. And I’m wondering if this statue toppling is one of those situations that ultimately won’t change anything.
I hesitated about starting this thread but this has been on my mind a lot and so here it is to find out what you’ll think.
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Post by 950nancy on Jun 20, 2020 22:21:09 GMT
I am not worried about the endgame yet. Right now I don't want to play what ifs. Right now these statues need to be put in museums (if they can make it that long) and schools/bases should be renamed to reflect the US that is today. It seems that we too often worry about what if we go too far and then we just sit in fear and go nowhere.
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Post by cindyupnorth on Jun 20, 2020 22:27:00 GMT
I guess the end game would be to end racism. Take all those statues and put them in museums or destroy them. I don't get the overall love of statues. I agree with changing some of the names, and most of them should have been changed a long time ago.
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seaexplore
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Post by seaexplore on Jun 20, 2020 22:33:32 GMT
@freddie I'm right there with you. It bothers me that all of this is being destroyed. Keep it, learn from it. Don't like it? Don't look at it. Sanitizing the history of the US isn't the way to get people educated. It's a way to make people resent those who are trying to change history. It makes me sad.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jun 20, 2020 22:35:45 GMT
@freddie I'm right there with you. It bothers me that all of this is being destroyed. Keep it, learn from it. Don't like it? Don't look at it. Sanitizing the history of the US isn't the way to get people educated. It's a way to make people resent those who are trying to change history. It makes me sad. Ive been resentful for awhile. It’s okay. You get used to it. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 20, 2020 22:40:06 GMT
I’m sure the Nazis put up monuments to Hitler but you sure as hell don’t see those standing still.
This reckoning has been a long time coming.
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Post by katlady on Jun 20, 2020 22:40:29 GMT
I don't think we should change history and make it pretty. We should keep all those names in our history books. We can't change who signed the Declaration of Independence. But, I don't know why we even have statues up in public places that honor a government that lost. Those statues should be in a museum. I read that a lot of the southern statues were erected in the 20th century, long after the Civil War.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 20, 2020 22:42:16 GMT
I don't think we should change history and make it pretty. We should keep all those names in our history books. We can't change who signed the Declaration of Independence. But, I don't know why we even have statues up in public places that honor a government that lost. Those statues should be in a museum. I read that a lot of the southern statues were erected in the 20th century, long after the Civil War. And in reaction to demands for Civil Rights. Let’s tell THAT history. |
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Post by nurseypants on Jun 20, 2020 22:44:41 GMT
I didn’t learn US history from monuments and statues. Did anyone? The bottom line is that the Confederacy were traitors, and slavers. Statues and monuments are placed to HONOR people. The South lost, and their cause was evil and despicable. No person should have to walk in the shadow of a statue of someone who, had they won, would be enslaving Black folks even today.
Get on board. Jesus.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jun 20, 2020 23:00:44 GMT
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Post by hopemax on Jun 20, 2020 23:05:39 GMT
I am concerned that there is way more talk about symbols and statues and not more talk about the way all of our systems have been built to support inequality.
In the short term, it's fine. Legislation and corporate & educational restructuring take time, so I can see how the low hanging fruit, stuff that should have been done years ago, the Confederacy really needs to die and stay dead, are attractive targets. But now, even the Black voices I've been following on Twitter are talking about what names need to be changed, and statues torn down and not the things they were talking about before to actually improve outcomes for Black people. IMO, it looks like the system fighting back. Get people distracted, waste political capital. The narrative is being directed toward the things people in power are willing to sacrifice in order to keep what is really important: money and power.
Criminal Justice
Access to Healthcare
Mental Health & Addiction
Sick Leave
Living Wages
Pay Equity
Employment Discrimination
Hostile Work/Education Environments
Education
Housing Discrimination
Taxes that favor the wealthy and leave necessary community resources underfunded.
And who knows how many countless others that we need to be talking about. We need to get the ball rolling now, so when, hopefully January brings a change of leadership things are ready for implementation and don't get bogged down in the type of inevitable conversations that are going to happen.
So many of these things have been framed as political ideology and not as basic human rights. The conversations to demonstrate how these are part of an intentional structural system is going to be a long and difficult one. Is it better to tally up a bunch of winnable, minor victories or go for the bigger reward even though it will be frustrating, demoralizing and fraught with fears that the change won't happen?
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Post by PolarGreen12 on Jun 20, 2020 23:09:11 GMT
Wooooo!! He told them! He covered it all too. And based it with facts and history. 🙌🏻 And all Connie could do was shop online and walk out. 🤦🏻♀️ 👊🏻👊🏼👊🏽👊🏾👊🏿 |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 20, 2020 23:09:35 GMT
I didn’t learn US history from monuments and statues. Did anyone? The bottom line is that the Confederacy were traitors, and slavers. Statues and monuments are placed to HONOR people. The South lost, and their cause was evil and despicable. No person should have to walk in the shadow of a statue of someone who, had they won, would be enslaving Black folks even today. Get on board. Jesus. Well none of the statues in the OP were Confederates. Ulysess S Grant was a general in the Union army. Francis Scott Keyes died before the Civil War and Junipero Serra died in 1784. |
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Post by dizzycheermom on Jun 20, 2020 23:11:08 GMT
I don't think we should change history and make it pretty. We should keep all those names in our history books. We can't change who signed the Declaration of Independence. But, I don't know why we even have statues up in public places that honor a government that lost. Those statues should be in a museum. I read that a lot of the southern statues were erected in the 20th century, long after the Civil War. We have already changed history to make it pretty. The story of Christopher Columbus, the first Thanksgiving, not to mention all of the massacres of our Black Americans...what did you learn in school and how does it compare to the truth? |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jun 20, 2020 23:13:47 GMT
I am concerned that there is way more talk about symbols and statues and not more talk about the way all of our systems have been built to support inequality. In the short term, it's fine. Legislation and corporate & educational restructuring take time, so I can see how the low hanging fruit, stuff that should have been done years ago, the Confederacy really needs to die and stay dead, are attractive targets. But now, even the Black voices I've been following on Twitter are talking about what names need to be changed, and statues torn down and not the things they were talking about before to actually improve outcomes for Black people. IMO, it looks like the system fighting back. Get people distracted, waste political capital. The narrative is being directed toward the things people in power are willing to sacrifice in order to keep what is really important: money and power. Criminal Justice Access to Healthcare Mental Health & Addiction Sick Leave Living Wages Pay Equity Employment Discrimination Hostile Work/Education Environments Education Housing Discrimination Taxes that favor the wealthy and leave necessary community resources underfunded. And who knows how many countless others that we need to be talking about. We need to get the ball rolling now, so when, hopefully January brings a change of leadership things are ready for implementation and don't get bogged down in the type of inevitable conversations that are going to happen. So many of these things have been framed as political ideology and not as basic human rights. The conversations to demonstrate how these are part of an intentional structural system is going to be a long and difficult one. Is it better to tally up a bunch of winnable, minor victories or go for the bigger reward even though it will be frustrating, demoralizing and fraught with fears that the change won't happen? Every voice I’m tuning my ear to is focusing on black empowerment and the building of black wealth. Everyone is still screaming Defund the Police and keeping their eyes on the prize. *One man successfully crowdfunded and there is talk of building another Black Wallstreet that can’t be destroyed. I’m really hopeful about the progress and I wasn’t even 6 months ago. Black gun ownership is a conversation. Protecting black women without question is trending. The “black receipt” went well on Juneteenth. Tons of movements seem to be taking root. I think there is increased focus on what’s really important and this time we won’t stop until it’s done. |
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peasquared
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Post by peasquared on Jun 20, 2020 23:18:00 GMT
Wooooo!! He told them! He covered it all too. And based it with facts and history. 🙌🏻 And all Connie could do was shop online and walk out. 🤦🏻♀️ 👊🏻👊🏼👊🏽👊🏾👊🏿 That was awesome! Sadly, Connie reminds me of trump. Tweeting while the small business owners were pouring their hearts out. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 20, 2020 23:19:48 GMT
I saw this on Twitter and it’s a master class in rhetoric and holding local elected officials accountable. |
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RosieKat
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Post by RosieKat on Jun 20, 2020 23:22:04 GMT
I read that a lot of the southern statues were erected in the 20th century, long after the Civil War. Just like the incorporation of what is now called the Confederate flag - they were intimidation tactics a la Jim Crow. Those things should be removed, posthaste, and anything of quality should be placed in museums so that we don't forget where we went wrong in the hopes of not repeating it. I do not support the demolition of Mount Rushmore for rather obvious reasons of scale and environment. I think there are things like the Jefferson Memorial, for example, that should have additional information available at the site. (I have not been, so if it is already there, please forgive me.) We should not and cannot just nuke everything. But for example, in the city where I graduated high school, there is a monument to the "Defenders of the South" that is prominently placed in front of the parish courthouse. How would you feel as a black person entering those doors to be tried for some offense? Justice is supposed to be blind, but what hope would you hold out when that kind of symbol confronts you in your face? That is a part of history and should be saved, but maybe in a parish or state museum where the historical context is present. Keeping it front and center implies automatic endorsement, whether intentional or not. Remember, New Yorkers toppled a statue of George III after the Declaration of Independence was adopted, and I don't think we've forgotten who "won" that war. |
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Post by oliquig on Jun 20, 2020 23:32:57 GMT
I can't find sources on several of your statements. Where did you get your information?
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Post by myshelly on Jun 20, 2020 23:36:41 GMT
I didn’t learn US history from monuments and statues. Did anyone? The bottom line is that the Confederacy were traitors, and slavers. Statues and monuments are placed to HONOR people. The South lost, and their cause was evil and despicable. No person should have to walk in the shadow of a statue of someone who, had they won, would be enslaving Black folks even today. Get on board. Jesus. How does your post even relate to the OP? She’s asking about Lincoln and Woodrow Wilson and Francis Scott Key. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 20, 2020 23:43:34 GMT
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Nov 23, 2024 16:31:20 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 23:52:52 GMT
I guess everyone has their own line in the sand about what the end game is. It's just too bad that you *the global you* don't get to decide when it's over. It's only offensive once it reaches your front porch I guess. The problem is that you *again the global you* are sure to have something that offends someone else.
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sassyangel
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Post by sassyangel on Jun 20, 2020 23:59:46 GMT
@freddie I'm right there with you. It bothers me that all of this is being destroyed. Keep it, learn from it. Don't like it? Don't look at it. Sanitizing the history of the US isn't the way to get people educated. It's a way to make people resent those who are trying to change history. It makes me sad. Maybe for statues, but it’s a bit hard to not look at the name of a school you attend, or your kids attend. Or a base you live on. |
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Post by myshelly on Jun 21, 2020 0:01:56 GMT
The person I quoted didn’t say any of those things and didn’t at all answer the OP. |
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Post by lisae on Jun 21, 2020 0:08:01 GMT
It seems to me there is a lot of public sentiment and political capital being spent on changing names, removing statues and other things that aren't going to put anyone to work, make anyone safer, improve anyone's educational opportunities, add any healthcare services or save anyone's life.
With a pandemic, a cratering economy and an election, the emphasis on this movement will only last so long. Look how quickly people have disregarded the warnings they were heeding about the virus. Americans have short attention spans and we quickly pivot to our personal priorities.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Jun 21, 2020 0:39:15 GMT
I think the Confederate statues should be taken down. I honestly don't know why they were put up in the first place. It seems really stupid that people glorify a war that they lost, especially since it was a civil war. The fact that they were mostly erected during the Civil Rights era is even more disgusting.
As for changing the names of schools and other monuments that are named after people who were Presidents, I don't feel as strongly about that. I don't know if I would push to change those.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 21, 2020 0:54:55 GMT
The person I quoted didn’t say any of those things and didn’t at all answer the OP. What she said was no person should have to walk past statues of people who would have enslaved them. Lincoln was not an abolitionist and didn't think Black people should be able to vote. Francis Scott Key was a slave owner. Woodrow Wilson was a segregationist. If your whole point is getting hung up on the word "Confederate," you're just arguing semantics and contributing nothing to the discussion. |
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Post by librarylady on Jun 21, 2020 0:55:19 GMT
Wow! Wow! This man came prepared with facts. He also had the courage to call out those who needed to be called out.
I wonder about the next day/week. Did the community continue to hold the board to accountability? I shall pop over to Baton Rouge news and see. ETA The community is really calling for this lady to resign. Apparently she has been in trouble before. |
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seaexplore
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Post by seaexplore on Jun 21, 2020 2:02:16 GMT
@freddie I'm right there with you. It bothers me that all of this is being destroyed. Keep it, learn from it. Don't like it? Don't look at it. Sanitizing the history of the US isn't the way to get people educated. It's a way to make people resent those who are trying to change history. It makes me sad. Maybe for statues, but it’s a bit hard to not look at the name of a school you attend, or your kids attend. Or a base you live on. For me, it's just a name. I don't think of the person it's named after. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 21, 2020 3:19:39 GMT
Maybe for statues, but it’s a bit hard to not look at the name of a school you attend, or your kids attend. Or a base you live on. For me, it's just a name. I don't think of the person it's named after. Question: Are you white? |
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