What is the endgame? And will it make a difference?

I love this guy. 

Context is the key. No one ever learned history from a statue.

Removing statues is not sanitizing history. The statues were erected to sanitize public life as part of a systematic effort of lauding only those white men who fought to keep black people enslaved, to kill Native Americans, to eradicate any culture other than white culture.

If the statues were to be kept, I would argue a statue of someone who fought against enslavement and cultural erasure should be erected opposite them to have a visual dialogue.

Will it make a difference in the end? It's already making a difference because people like us are trying to figure out why people who were not Confederate generals are mentioned on the list. A lot of people are thinking back to what they learned about US history and are learning more now and realizing that what we learned was incomplete, and told through only one perspective.

This question implies that there is a small group of people with a plan and a strategy. I think this is an ever-changing and growing movement, with some people who have more extreme viewpoints than others. Sure, all of the statues could be removed without damage and preserved in museums with perfect descriptions, but that would take a long time, and would require historians and preservationists and strong leadership. I don't think popular movements and protests work that way, especially not at the beginning.

Do you think those people throwing tea overboard in the Boston harbor had any idea of exactly what might ultimately happen?

I've made a decision to stay out of politics on this board, but I think someone needs to speak up for the tens of thousands of Americans in this country who abhor the destruction that many of you are championing. Fred asks what the end-game is. I understand what most of you THINK the endgame should be, but I believe the fact that this forum has become an echo-chamber, leads you to believe that most people agree with you on this. I don't think so. I, personally, don't know one person who is in favor of the annihilation of statues of men who, while not perfect, did wonderful things to help make this country one of the greatest that has ever existed on the face of this planet. Many are so angry with what is happening that I expect you are going to see a major push-back. These men were the product of their times. Because we see things differently now and our thinking has progressed (thankfully) since those long ago times, does not mean they were evil. Perhaps we need to require more study in school on the lives of some of these men. I cannot believe that ANY person who has even really studied the life of Robert E. Lee would EVER be in favor of removing his statue. I'll say this: If I had the chance, I would vote for Robert E. Lee today as our next president 10 million times over either Donald Trump or Joe Biden.

And when you are applauding the possible removal of the names of Abraham Lincoln or George Washington from buildings OR defacing their statues, you have gone way, way, way too far. To me anyone who champions this clearly does not understand the reality of either of these men's greatness of character! We would be fortunate to have anyone CLOSE to their characters in our political chambers today.

I appreciate you weighing in. However, if you personally don’t know anyone
who thinks removing statues of problematical men is a good idea, perhaps you should worry less about the perceived echo chamber on this message board and more about the echo chamber you are living in. In regards to the statues: some of those men did do great things in addition to abhorrent ones and we are all more than our best and worst actions. But statues in public forums are meant to glorify those depicted and to represent the society’s shared values. Our shared values have hopefully evolved so that slavery, segregation and succession are no longer to be glorified. Symbols count. Removing the statues and upgrading names is a simple easy way to say “I agree it’s time to change with the times, and recognize that these men who were a product of their times, no longer represent our shared values”

And I want to add, if you don’t think the statues should come down, ask yourslef why not? Why are you more interested in hanging on to an obsolete and problematic statue than in connecting with actual, living people who are telling you all the reasons these statues have outlived their time.

Thanks for sharing. It’s the perfect illustration and explanation of why these buildings need to be renamed and monuments need to come down.

www.smithsonianmag.com/history/making-sense-of-robert-e-lee-85017563/


Reading comments like hers no longer bring me to anger. Disheartened but not angry. Decided to do a quick google search to see what would make it Robert E Lee 2020 as opposed to Joe Biden 2020 (no better) and found this article

www.smithsonianmag.com/history/making-sense-of-robert-e-lee-85017563/


He died with a fried chicken sandwich in his hands and had tiny feet was all I came up with from all that reading.


And this letter he wrote to his wife:

In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages.” But he goes on: “I think it however a greater evil to the white than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.”


There is a right and wrong to shit even if it feels like an echo chamber by the way.

The Atlantic just cuts through the florid phrasing and immediately to the chase…

Shorter Lee: "Slavery sucks, sure, but it's God's will. It's good for you, too. You're welcome.”

Whatever Robert E Lee did before, he became a traitor to the United States of America.  Benedict Arnold also did great things during the early Revolutionary War battles, but he turned traitor and history remembers him primarily for his traitorous actions.  Saratoga apparently has a statue that honors Benedict Arnold's contribution without ever mentioning him by name  www.amusingplanet.com/2018/11/the-boot-monument-how-america-remembers.html .  Sometimes, those are the breaks, a person makes his choices, and they come with consequences.  Want to be remembered more positively, don't be a traitor.  So many of the other statues are generic Confederate soldiers, or names that history has already ruled irrelevant.  My Dad was a Marine during the Vietnam War, and had simply believed the narratives of war heroes.  However, over the last few years he's been reading the history of the US Marines, and ended up coming away with the feeling that some of the people we venerate, don't deserve it.  Some were poor tacticians, poor leaders, endangered their soldiers unnecessarily and brave young men died because of it.  Re-evaluation is a necessary part of growth.  Editing is not the same erasure.

That said, this is why the narrative shifting to statues and names concerns me.  The farther we go, the less cut & dry the decisions become.  An asteroid hit this planet and the Earth was never the same.  There are historical events that are like metaphorical asteroids hitting the planet, and I put Columbus' New World arrival, American Independence, Lincoln's decisions during the Civil War as these type of events.  We don't get HERE without those events, and museum displays don't seem enough acknowledgement of the momentousness of those events.  IMO, people are naive about what alternatives actually existed.  Whenever Eurasian people and Americas people really mingled, it was going to end tragically.  The spread of COVID-19, despite all of our medical advances should demonstrate that. Land, resources and religious wars have been playing out since the dawn of time, regardless of the continent, and the Americas saw their own violent destruction of civilizations before Europeans ever arrived. Washington, Jefferson and other Founding Fathers were crucial for wresting power out of the hands of monarchies and traditional power structures into the hands of the people (although, there is much work still to be done). 

All of us are product of the world we live in.  I've seen a lot of names suggested for replacements, and on the surface they may seem like great choices.  But no one has subjected them to the same sort of purity tests we are going through today.  If we are honest with ourselves, would the important BIPOC men and women from history pass the test for LGBTQ rights?   100 years from now, 200 years, 400 years history will look at us with aghast over things we can't even begin to see could be problematic.  

We watch the 1776 musical every 4th of July, and one of my favorite parts is the exchange between John Adams and Benjamin Franklin regarding the removal of portion of the Declaration of Independence concerning slavery.

John Adams : Mark me, Franklin... if we give in on this issue, posterity will never forgive us.



Dr. Benjamin Franklin : That's probably true, but we won't hear a thing, we'll be long gone. Besides, what would posterity think we were? Demi-gods? We're men, no more no less, trying to get a nation started against greater odds than a more generous God would have allowed. First things first, John. Independence; America. If we don't secure that, what difference will the rest make?

I would hope that if we are a more enlightened form of human than our ancestors, that we could recognize that fallibility is part of the human condition and that we can acknowledge and even forgive a lack of enlightenment from previous generations.  Like I said in another thread, for progress towards equality and justice we need to see white people making mistakes, and learning from them.  This whole movement depends on the ability of people to grow and change.  We need examples to demonstrate that important people, forward thinking people have room for improvement and not just discard them to the trash heap of history, or a corner in a museum, in our own individual quests to "do better."

So to go back to the movie quote, what is it really that we need to secure?   Equality and justice.  What difference does the rest make?

For certain, just removing the statues and changing names is not enough, and equality and justice are more important. But removing the statues is not nothing to everyone. I’m a white woman, I can’t relate. But many black people around the country are championing these removals so it means something to them. Perhaps they can chime in with how those statues make them feel.

We can all find something we are opposed to and would champion having removed. I'm personally opposed to religious figures and I know that there is a large number of people who are atheist, agnostic and non religious. That doesn't even count the number of people who have been personally harmed and abused by the church. What if we start burning churches and toppling religious statutes and figures? Where does it end?

If someone began burning churches down I wonder who would have set the precedent? *scratches chin* anyone know who burned a church first around here?

My ancestors built this country for free. I’m sorry you’ve got to make heroes out of the absolute worst of men but that’s not my problem.🤷🏾‍♀️ They were erected so people who look like me lived in fear and were reminded losers and traitors somehow deserve respect. Yall don’t. If you defend these men you are no better than them. What are you really trying to maintain? If we agree enslaving other human beings is wrong why is Robert E Lee a hero? Or any of these other rapists, kidnappers and psychotic abusers! They were shit human beings who did horrible horrible things to other human beings and PRESENT DAY that group of people are still living in fear for their lives. How are you okay with that as women? Mothers? How?


Even Robert E Lee’s descendants agree:
www.winknews.com/2020/06/12/descendant-of-a-founding-family-in-fort-myers-weighs-in-on-robert-e-lee-bust-removal/

I’m not sure I understand removing Teddy Roosevelt from a museum but I haven’t see the memorial - off to google...

ETA ahhh I understand why it’s being removed - carry on.