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Post by Merge on Nov 26, 2020 15:23:51 GMT
My stance - if the energy is going to shipped out of the area to bigger towns, let those bigger towns prop solar panels on their business towers and on the land in their municipalities. Not in my backyard? You can say that. If the infrastructure doesn't support the local economy it needs to be placed in the areas it will be supporting. I’m not arguing with you, but I’ll just gently post out that the Houston area deals with the pollution and ugliness of the refineries that supply gasoline to a large chunk of the country - not just Houston.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2020 20:31:14 GMT
I understand @merge and I am not trying to be aggressive or argumentative. You are right that Houston does deal with a lot of the side effects of the oil industry. As a rebuttal, the oil industry provides significant economic inflow and employs thousands of people providing some "yen and yang balance" to the equation. The Samson solar farm does nothing - NOTHING - for the local economy and the people who live near it.
Other solar companies are also starting to plant themselves in the area. They come in, pitch their program to city councils then ask for tax abatements which make the property values lower than they were before a solar farm was planted. Living in Texas you know property taxes fund schools, hospital, and emergency service districts. These granted abatements mean less funding for schools, hospitals and ESDs which comes across as the second gut punch in the solar farm scenario here in Texas. The reason these places are put out into the boonies is because the land is where it is the least expensive across the state which means the people living out there are barley making ends meet. NE Texas landowners are not rich like their cousins in Central and West Texas.
Right now the cons are far outweighing the pros and no one is standing up for the local communities.
The clean energy minds need to redefine what exactly progress means and a plan on how to balance what they take away from the local community versus what they give back. The Samson project is giving nothing back.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2020 22:12:19 GMT
Right now the cons are far outweighing the pros and no one is standing up for the local communities. Maybe locally. Not globally. PS - This would be a great time for a city or county to institute a tax on the profits of the power sold to the buyers or the market. No reason that it shouldn't have a positive tax benefit to the local community.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2020 23:59:48 GMT
Things have to start small before they go big. Trying to stick a square peg in round hole never works.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 4:34:06 GMT
Things have to start small before they go big. Trying to stick a square peg in round hole never works. This is about sticking energy for 300,000 homes into a clean, renewable, sustainable hole.
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Post by yivit on Nov 27, 2020 14:01:40 GMT
Things have to start small before they go big. Trying to stick a square peg in round hole never works. This is about sticking energy for 300,000 homes into a clean, renewable, sustainable hole. It will be benefiting some major corporations far more than it will the 3 municipalities getting some of the power generated. They're on the low end of the MW received scale in the project. Notice the more local towns are getting none of it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 14:40:24 GMT
This is about sticking energy for 300,000 homes into a clean, renewable, sustainable hole. It will be benefiting some major corporations far more than it will the 3 municipalities getting some of the power generated. They're on the low end of the MW received scale in the project. Notice the more local towns are getting none of it. As I said above, in a DEMOCRACY the citizens can (and should) petition for taxes that reflect the benefit SOME are receiving financially (while all are receiving globally from a CO2 benefit).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 15:33:31 GMT
As I said previously in a different way, new does not equal progress. If green energy is supposed to be about advancing the world and making it a better, more progressive place to live then advancing the world has to include progress for the people it is impacting and provide better balance.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 15:37:51 GMT
As I said previously in a different way, new does not equal progress. If green energy is supposed to be about advancing the world and making it a better, more progressive place to live then advancing the world has to include progress for the people it is impacting and provide better balance. Yep. And you can do that by TAXING the profits coming off of these amazing no CO2 energy-producing solar farms to benefit the local communities in which they are built and produce. Win-win-win.
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Post by freecharlie on Nov 27, 2020 17:24:41 GMT
As I said previously in a different way, new does not equal progress. If green energy is supposed to be about advancing the world and making it a better, more progressive place to live then advancing the world has to include progress for the people it is impacting and provide better balance. I get that there are drawbacks, but it seems wht land owners are getting megabucks for leasing their land to the solar company, so I am wondering who it is negatively impacting? The construction jobs will last a couple of years. Some will be brought in, some will be local. They could all move with the jobs like welders and other trades often do. The influx of goods and services for the local areas and the taxes on those will grow for a couple of years, good investments should help prolong the benefit, and there will have to be some jobs that are left behind, maintenence and up keep will need to happen, trouble shooting if something goes wrong... So who does it negatively impact? Are they using eminent domain and taking land?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 18:00:02 GMT
The landowners are not getting "megabucks" based on the conversations I had with four of the landowners over the past two days. The money is helping them stay afloat since COVID has reduced their ability to sell their crops/cattle, but the lease payment amounts are nowhere near megabucks.
The jobs are not going to local people - they are bringing people in to do the jobs along with temp trailers for them to live in so no B&B, hospitality outfits, etc. will benefit either. Maybe the grocery stores and a few local diners/restaurants but no long term positive economic impact is coming.
The people who are benefitting are AT&T, McDonald’s, Google, The Home Depot, Honda and the three municipalities. Because the solar farms are on private land and the electricity generated is considered a private benefit local towns where the land is located cannot tax Sansom for local revenue needs @zingermack - the county commissioner of one of the counties (who I graduated high school with) already tried that route so its not a "win-win-win".
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Post by Merge on Nov 27, 2020 21:32:56 GMT
The landowners are not getting "megabucks" based on the conversations I had with four of the landowners over the past two days. The money is helping them stay afloat since COVID has reduced their ability to sell their crops/cattle, but the lease payment amounts are nowhere near megabucks. The jobs are not going to local people - they are bringing people in to do the jobs along with temp trailers for them to live in so no B&B, hospitality outfits, etc. will benefit either. Maybe the grocery stores and a few local diners/restaurants but no long term positive economic impact is coming. The people who are benefitting are AT&T, McDonald’s, Google, The Home Depot, Honda and the three municipalities. Because the solar farms are on private land and the electricity generated is considered a private benefit local towns where the land is located cannot tax Sansom for local revenue needs @zingermack - the county commissioner of one of the counties (who I graduated high school with) already tried that route so its not a "win-win-win". If it’s not a good deal for them, why did the landowners agree to the leases?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 22:08:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 23:24:55 GMT
I actually know the people who are getting the payments and what you are saying and what the actual recipients are saying - let's just say the gap between the two numbers is bigger than the Grand Canyon. As for the Houston Chronicle being a reliable source? They don't work with people outside their territory of greater Houston. I've called them twice this past year for stories in the Central Texas area and as a general policy they stay in their own backyard. I'm not sure why the article you posted was written unless they needed filler but I have been told from the proverbial horses mouth they aren't receiving that amount of money as a collective group over 20 years. No matter - you are going to keep trying to debate your point as right because of your globalist view.
And if you read my previous statement where I said I spoke to the county commissioner and TAXE REVENUE IS NOT AN OPTION because of the way the project is structured.
@merge - They thought the money was better than what they had been receiving in recent years from farming. They've also taken a HUGE hit this year from COVID so they basically had zero income and needed something. Some of these folks are getting on up in their years, too. Who knows why they did what they did. Regardless of why, their decisions have been made.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 23:32:33 GMT
TAXE REVENUE IS NOT AN OPTION because of the way the project is structured. Tax Revenue is an option if you change the laws. That's why people organize and lobby to get laws enacted. I'll take the Chron's reporting over a random person on a message board as I'm sure the lease payments will be in the corporate filings.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2020 0:10:37 GMT
And how long does it take to get tax laws changed when multi-national corporations are involved? Get real. As for getting the specific addresses, land lot sizes and lease payment amounts across seven different corporate filings?
Good luck reconciling that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2020 0:14:10 GMT
And how long does it take to get tax laws changed Depends how organized people are and how much noise they make/lobbying they do.
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Post by freecharlie on Nov 28, 2020 0:18:10 GMT
I actually know the people who are getting the payments and what you are saying and what the actual recipients are saying - let's just say the gap between the two numbers is bigger than the Grand Canyon. As for the Houston Chronicle being a reliable source? They don't work with people outside their territory of greater Houston. I've called them twice this past year for stories in the Central Texas area and as a general policy they stay in their own backyard. I'm not sure why the article you posted was written unless they needed filler but I have been told from the proverbial horses mouth they aren't receiving that amount of money as a collective group over 20 years. No matter - you are going to keep trying to debate your point as right because of your globalist view. And if you read my previous statement where I said I spoke to the county commissioner and TAXE REVENUE IS NOT AN OPTION because of the way the project is structured. @merge - They thought the money was better than what they had been receiving in recent years from farming. They've also taken a HUGE hit this year from COVID so they basically had zero income and needed something. Some of these folks are getting on up in their years, too. Who knows why they did what they did. Regardless of why, their decisions have been made. that happened near me with landowners selling their water rights back in the 80s. Didn't really matter then as the city that bought them wasn't big enough to need it. It matters now and the towns around us are screwed because of it.
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Post by yivit on Nov 28, 2020 0:46:06 GMT
I'll take the Chron's reporting over a random person on a message board as I'm sure the lease payments will be in the corporate filings. There a reason why lots of lifelong Houstonians nickname it the Comical. Didn't used to be that way when there was competition (we had the Post as well for many years).
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ComplicatedLady
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Post by ComplicatedLady on Nov 28, 2020 2:46:05 GMT
And how long does it take to get tax laws changed Depends how organized people are and how much noise they make/lobbying they do. Although, admittedly, it is harder when people continue to vote in people like Ted Cruz and John Cornyn to the Senate.
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Post by Merge on Nov 28, 2020 2:59:03 GMT
I'll take the Chron's reporting over a random person on a message board as I'm sure the lease payments will be in the corporate filings. There a reason why lots of lifelong Houstonians nickname it the Comical. Didn't used to be that way when there was competition (we had the Post as well for many years). The Chronicle has improved a lot since we first moved here in 1997.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2020 3:34:03 GMT
Depends how organized people are and how much noise they make/lobbying they do. Although, admittedly, it is harder when people continue to vote in people like Ted Cruz and John Cornyn to the Senate. No argument there.
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Post by yivit on Nov 28, 2020 4:45:57 GMT
There a reason why lots of lifelong Houstonians nickname it the Comical. Didn't used to be that way when there was competition (we had the Post as well for many years). The Chronicle has improved a lot since we first moved here in 1997. I agree, but they've also fallen down in some areas. I blame it on Hearst. Funny side note: I almost ended up working for them about the time you moved here. Interviewed for a position that was being vacated. The guy was moving over to their new online section. Didn't get the job because it went to the nephew of one of the editors.
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Post by Merge on Nov 28, 2020 15:37:18 GMT
@merge - They thought the money was better than what they had been receiving in recent years from farming. They've also taken a HUGE hit this year from COVID so they basically had zero income and needed something. Some of these folks are getting on up in their years, too. Who knows why they did what they did. Regardless of why, their decisions have been made. It seems like your beef is with the landowners, then? They could have said no, and the solar farm could be located elsewhere. It's a difficult thing because most of Texas is big on property rights, and having some sort of regulation about whether you can lease your land to a potentially objectionable entity would start to sound too much like big government encroachment to a lot of those people. And while I take your point about Houston seeing financial benefit from refineries, I think the people on the east side who suffer much higher rates of asthma, lung disease and cancer would perhaps take issue with it all being fair trade. It's an eternal fight, right? People need power, but no one wants the means of production nearby. Nuclear energy production is among the most reliable and environmentally friendly means of producing power, but no one wants a nuclear energy plant in their town.
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Post by Merge on Nov 28, 2020 15:51:44 GMT
The Chronicle has improved a lot since we first moved here in 1997. I agree, but they've also fallen down in some areas. I blame it on Hearst. Funny side note: I almost ended up working for them about the time you moved here. Interviewed for a position that was being vacated. The guy was moving over to their new online section. Didn't get the job because it went to the nephew of one of the editors. Kind of tying together your comments about the Chronicle and @evie 's about Houston reaping some benefit from its petrochemical industry ... there was a big investigative report in the Chronicle after Harvey about the negative impact on the environment due to chemical spills during flooding. www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/In-Houston-and-beyond-Harvey-s-spills-leave-a-12771237.phpState and federal authorities take great delight in stripping away regulations that might help prevent this kind of thing, because petroleum companies are big-money donors. GOP voters cheer. Meanwhile, the mostly poor and lower middle class, mostly brown folks who live in that area and work in the refineries bear the brunt of the lack of necessary regulations. As do all of us who care about the environment. We have fairly regular chemical plant explosions, refinery fires, etc. in addition to the catastrophic spillage that comes with a natural disaster. Is the human and environmental cost worth it? Is that a big plus for the city of Houston and its suburbs? Or might we deserve a move to less dangerous and more carbon-friendly forms of energy production, perhaps spread out so no one area suffers disproportionately? Maybe a few acres given to solar panels in a lightly populated area isn't the end of the world? IDK
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2020 17:10:15 GMT
To be fair, it's not a "few" acres. It will be thousands of acres for a solar farm this big. But, netted out, I believe the pros FAR OUTWEIGH the cons when it comes to solar energy vs. extractive, nuclear, etc.
And for the local folks, I hope they do enact laws to get some of the financial benefit. Because, as I stated above, this is ONLY THE BEGINNING of Texas coming into her own as the crossroads of green energy in America. She is uniquely positioned to produce terawatt hours of power for as long as the sun will shine and wind will blow.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2020 17:59:20 GMT
(For some reason I can't tag @merge in my post??) @merge - My beef with the entire project is the energy is not going back to the "greater good" of the local economy which really needs the injection. I would like to see a better balance of give and take. I personally know many of the people affected by this project and they are not benefiting as much as the marketing material states. It also breaks my heart to see such beautiful land areas made "ugly" by solar panels being erected. Yes, Texas has lots of land that can and will pave the road toward green energy but I can't help but think that West/South/SW Texas would be the better locations - less trees, less population, land is not fertile farmland, less personal/local impacts, etc. Like @zingermack says, it is probably a matter of time for seeing more of this across Texas. I've watched as The Valley area of Texas erect windmills by the hundreds so this will be a similar exercise in conflicted emotions for a while. I'm sure I'll get over it and my kids and grandkids will be thankful for someone's vision. I can also look at the bright side of the situation - if these types of projects continue to keep Texas energy independent I can get behind it. I like that our state has their own power grid.
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Post by freecharlie on Nov 28, 2020 22:59:48 GMT
(For some reason I can't tag @merge in my post??) @merge - My beef with the entire project is the energy is not going back to the "greater good" of the local economy which really needs the injection. I would like to see a better balance of give and take. I personally know many of the people affected by this project and they are not benefiting as much as the marketing material states. It also breaks my heart to see such beautiful land areas made "ugly" by solar panels being erected. Yes, Texas has lots of land that can and will pave the road toward green energy but I can't help but think that West/South/SW Texas would be the better locations - less trees, less population, land is not fertile farmland, less personal/local impacts, etc. Like @zingermack says, it is probably a matter of time for seeing more of this across Texas. I've watched as The Valley area of Texas erect windmills by the hundreds so this will be a similar exercise in conflicted emotions for a while. I'm sure I'll get over it and my kids and grandkids will be thankful for someone's vision. I can also look at the bright side of the situation - if these types of projects continue to keep Texas energy independent I can get behind it. I like that our state has their own power grid. to tag merge, you have to use her username which is mergeleft I guess it might depend on how much and how close to the roads whether I would find it an eyesore. The ones around here don't bother me near as much as the tanks for oil/gas and once bult there isn't a lot of large truck traffic like when they are franking. If you are so inclined, could you find a picture if the area we are talking about because I just can't get my mind to picture it.
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Post by Merge on Nov 29, 2020 1:29:18 GMT
(For some reason I can't tag @merge in my post??) @merge - My beef with the entire project is the energy is not going back to the "greater good" of the local economy which really needs the injection. I would like to see a better balance of give and take. I personally know many of the people affected by this project and they are not benefiting as much as the marketing material states. It also breaks my heart to see such beautiful land areas made "ugly" by solar panels being erected. Yes, Texas has lots of land that can and will pave the road toward green energy but I can't help but think that West/South/SW Texas would be the better locations - less trees, less population, land is not fertile farmland, less personal/local impacts, etc. Like @zingermack says, it is probably a matter of time for seeing more of this across Texas. I've watched as The Valley area of Texas erect windmills by the hundreds so this will be a similar exercise in conflicted emotions for a while. I'm sure I'll get over it and my kids and grandkids will be thankful for someone's vision. I can also look at the bright side of the situation - if these types of projects continue to keep Texas energy independent I can get behind it. I like that our state has their own power grid. to tag merge, you have to use her username which is mergeleft I guess it might depend on how much and how close to the roads whether I would find it an eyesore. The ones around here don't bother me near as much as the tanks for oil/gas and once bult there isn't a lot of large truck traffic like when they are franking. If you are so inclined, could you find a picture if the area we are talking about because I just can't get my mind to picture it. A picture of the Mankato array (Minnesota) on what is similar land to the area in question in Texas. Photos of what large parts of the SE Texas coastline look like so we can provide gasoline and other petrochemical products to the US. No offense, but I’ll take the panels. If they’re not providing much to the greater good in the area, they are at least not polluting the nearby land and water and sickening its residents. I often wonder how many of the folks who cry that we must continue to support oil and gas would take their kids to live near the refineries.
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Post by freecharlie on Nov 29, 2020 1:52:49 GMT
to tag merge, you have to use her username which is mergeleft I guess it might depend on how much and how close to the roads whether I would find it an eyesore. The ones around here don't bother me near as much as the tanks for oil/gas and once bult there isn't a lot of large truck traffic like when they are franking. If you are so inclined, could you find a picture if the area we are talking about because I just can't get my mind to picture it. A picture of the Mankato array (Minnesota) on what is similar land to the area in question in Texas. Photos of what large parts of the SE Texas coastline look like so we can provide gasoline and other petrochemical products to the US. No offense, but I’ll take the panels. If they’re not providing much to the greater good in the area, they are at least not polluting the nearby land and water and sickening its residents. I often wonder how many of the folks who cry that we must continue to support oil and gas would take their kids to live near the refineries. I get the solar farm look, she just said how beautiful the area is and I wondered if what I picture in my mind is different from reality.
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