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Post by Restless Spirit on Nov 26, 2020 15:39:38 GMT
I agree that an international attorney should be hired. All further communication to the German Family Court and "K" should be through the attorney only since there are so many questions regarding the DNA test.
I also think (through the attorney) it would not be unreasonable to expect "K" to explain WHY he wants the DNA so urgently that he is willing to pay for a court order to obtain it. It would seem that if he going to "demand" the test, "D" would be within her rights to ask the reasons "why". If no reasonable explanations are forthcoming, then I would only submit to the test if compelled to do so by a US court order.
No further personal contact or communication with "K" - Let an attorney handle it. It will be money will spent.
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Post by anniefb on Nov 26, 2020 17:49:42 GMT
Agree you need to see someone who practices in international law. Judgments obtained from foreign courts can often be enforced in a different country but they have to final and there will be a specified process in the local law for doing that. Some sort of direction from a German Court to take a test is unlikely to be legally binding - the German court has no authority in the US.
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Post by bc2ca on Nov 26, 2020 18:50:09 GMT
Given that he knows D & P aren't interested in participating and haven't voluntarily provided the DNA it is reasonable IMHO that he is letting his attorney take care of things and is not reachable. TBH, I'm feeling a little for this guy. It sounds like they do share the same dad and he may be struggling with trying to figure out who he is and dealing with rejection. It's definitely complicated. I would too if he didn’t have the history of disappearing and then showing up again. I find that peculiar and I can understand the reluctance to participate in a procedure that would tie me to him. Pure speculation on my part, but based on real life experience witnessing the confusion of someone desperately trying to figure out who they are and where they belong in the world and finding a family that doesn't want to acknowledge they exist, the disappearing and reappearing isn't necessarily nefarious. He may have anticipated welcoming arms and be struggling with the disinterest and resistance from what he sees as his long lost family and struggling with the rejection/depression/confusion on which way to proceed. Disappearing and showing up again IMHO shows he is struggling between respecting their rejection and his need to know who he is. Whether D&P want to participate or not is their decision unless there is some ability for the German court to compel compliance, but it does sound like they are tied to him by genetics. Providing the DNA wouldn't compel anyone to have a personal relationship with him but it could definitively answer questions for K. And if K can proof a birthright entitlement to US citizenship, why shouldn't he pursue it?
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Post by mich5481 on Nov 26, 2020 19:01:53 GMT
I thought there were laws about US birthright citizenship for children born to GIs, especially if the child was born out of wedlock. I could be wrong though.
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Post by hockeyfan06 on Nov 26, 2020 19:24:36 GMT
I feel for the OP and her husband. So many questions from this situation. It doesn't help that this man is so skittish about his whereabouts and plans. I can see that he would want his US citzenship, having a US passport is powerful. I have always told my son the most important thing you have when you travel is your passport. Keep it super safe.
I hope this all resolves painlessly soon.
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Post by KiwiJo on Nov 26, 2020 22:54:42 GMT
The US isn’t quite the powerful passport that it once was, and in fact the German passport is currently ranked the most powerful in the world: Global Passport Rankings“Power” in this instance is largely to do with how easy it is move around the world (if travel was currently possible!) without visas or by simply obtaining a visa upon arrival, although there is a bit more to it..... ETA. Sorry, meant to reply to hockeyfan06
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Post by shevy on Nov 27, 2020 6:27:32 GMT
I would contact a lawyer to find out my legal rights. We can speculate all we want, but you really need legal advice. You’re in Minnesota, right? We are using a family lawyer in St Peter who seems very through. (In-laws moved into care and we are dealing with issues with two family trusts.) He also advises when we need to legally do something and when it’s not worth the money to pursue. If you are near there, I’d be happy to pass on his info. Yes! If you could message me that would be great!
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Post by shevy on Nov 27, 2020 6:39:40 GMT
If K could simply say what his reasons are for wanting the birth certificate, what his intention and plan is, that may change my husband and D’Souza minds. But he started out by writing letters, calling them and then randomly showing up in town less than a month later. Then he went in for one of my husband and D’s last living uncles in a whole other part of the US and stayed there for 2 weeks to learn more about their Dad. Then he called P & D, in a joint call and demanded all of their Dad’s service records, and when asked why, said he wanted to know exactly how his death occurred and if it was just. When he wasn’t given access immediately, he disappeared the first time.
When their uncle did about 90 days later, of all the 18 nieces/nephews still alive and all the great nieces/nephews, K was the only one listed in the obituary and the only one at the funeral.
His approach makes everyone wonder what he’s really after. P & D and frankly I feel badly for how he grew up and the choices his mother made for him. And normally would have no issue with the DNA, if he was coming here and paying for a portion.
The whole thing really is a study in the bad things that can happen with consumer DNA companies. There’s no therapist/mediator to support them all through it and not everyone is playing on equal field.
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Post by Lindarina on Nov 27, 2020 10:22:52 GMT
I feel for the OP and her husband. So many questions from this situation. It doesn't help that this man is so skittish about his whereabouts and plans. I can see that he would want his US citzenship, having a US passport is powerful. I have always told my son the most important thing you have when you travel is your passport. Keep it super safe. I hope this all resolves painlessly soon. A German passport is more powerful than a US passport, so I doubt that’s his reason. From how the OP describes his actions, it sounds like he’s trying to figure out who his father was and his own place in this new family. His social antennas seem a bit bent, though.
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Post by MalleyCat on Nov 27, 2020 11:31:42 GMT
I don’t think I would waste money on a lawyer at this point. Divorces are a whole different ballgame., as far as needing a lawyer. 😉
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Post by bc2ca on Nov 28, 2020 20:40:18 GMT
If K could simply say what his reasons are for wanting the birth certificate Why does he owe them any reasons? A sincere, not snarky question. Are there any reasons P&D would like? When their uncle did about 90 days later, of all the 18 nieces/nephews still alive and all the great nieces/nephews, K was the only one listed in the obituary and the only one at the funeral. The only one that went or the only one that was invited? Did K write the obituary and plan the funeral?
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Nov 29, 2020 14:42:27 GMT
I remember reading the original thread. My heart goes out to anybody whose life is disrupted by these kinds of ancestry discoveries. It’s often so unexpected and jarring. On the other hand, I know young adults who were adopted into wonderful families and still have a lot of serious unresolved issues about their biological roots.
There is already evidence of this man’s bio father. I don’t understand why people are recommending that OP’s husband and SIL should actively prevent somebody from adding his biological father to his birth certificate - even if “actively” means through avoidance or by first requiring reasons for the addition.
Would more open communication help this situation? Is this whole situation bewildering and disruptive? Of course, but I don’t think any of that means that reasons or motives should be required. When you consider that the “legitimate” bio children would be doing this vetting of the “illegitimate” child, it adds a layer of ownership/judgement. All that said, I do agree with those who are recommending specialized legal advice.
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Post by pierkiss on Nov 29, 2020 14:47:44 GMT
If K could simply say what his reasons are for wanting the birth certificate Why does he owe them any reasons? A sincere, not snarky question. Are there any reasons P&D would like? When their uncle did about 90 days later, of all the 18 nieces/nephews still alive and all the great nieces/nephews, K was the only one listed in the obituary and the only one at the funeral. The only one that went or the only one that was invited? Did K write the obituary and plan the funeral? I mean, demanding a stranger provide you with their DNA ought to warrant a rationale. At least I think so.
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Nov 29, 2020 14:51:09 GMT
Why does he owe them any reasons? A sincere, not snarky question. Are there any reasons P&D would like? The only one that went or the only one that was invited? Did K write the obituary and plan the funeral? I mean, demanding a stranger provide you with their DNA ought to warrant a rationale. At least I think so. Isn’t the rationale that he wants the bio father’s name added to the birth certificate?
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Post by pierkiss on Nov 29, 2020 14:55:13 GMT
I mean, demanding a stranger provide you with their DNA ought to warrant a rationale. At least I think so. Isn’t the rationale that he wants the bio father’s name added to the birth certificate? Yes, but why? Just for ancestry reasons? To get a US passport? To try and claim some estate (even though the op has said there is none)? I personally would want to know why he wants/needs it now.
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Nov 29, 2020 15:07:29 GMT
Isn’t the rationale that he wants the bio father’s name added to the birth certificate? Yes, but why? Just for ancestry reasons? To get a US passport? To try and claim some estate (even though the op has said there is none)? I personally would want to know why he wants/needs it now. I would want to know why, too, but, considering the existing evidence, I wouldn’t demand it as a requirement of my cooperation. As I said in my wordy post above, it implies ownership and judgment, and I just don’t think the legitimate children are in a position to lay claim to the right to either. I think the man has a right to add his bio father to his birth certificate without justification. Full stop. Just as the father is on his other kids’ birth certificates. But it’s an interesting thread just in the division of opinion about that one basic thing. Too bad it’s not just a hypothetical thread, but people’s lives. Good luck to the OP and her family. I hope none of this discussion causes any more pain, and you got some good legal advice.
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julieb
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,845
Jul 3, 2014 16:02:54 GMT
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Post by julieb on Nov 29, 2020 16:28:49 GMT
I wouldn't spend a penny on a lawyer to figure it out. K needs to reappear and state the reasons why he is doing this. Unless on planned on traveling to Germany, I would leave it alone. Alternative is to do as asked by the German courts.
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Post by ameslou on Nov 29, 2020 17:36:59 GMT
When folks behave in shady ways (show up out of the blue, then disappear, then reappear, then disappear, then a foreign court order shows up out of blue), then I generally believe there's likely more shadiness lurking around. Was it Maya Angelou who said "when people show you who they are, believe them"?
As far as my feelings about brother's rights, when brother behaves in a shady way "because faaaaaaamily" is not a compelling argument to get me to take action. The OP is on the right track - get the lawyerly advice before making a decision about whether or not to comply with a foreign court's order.
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Post by bc2ca on Nov 29, 2020 17:54:08 GMT
I mean, demanding a stranger provide you with their DNA ought to warrant a rationale. At least I think so. Not a random stranger though. A stranger with compelling evidence that they have the same father. No one seems to be disputing that it is likely true.
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Post by myshelly on Nov 29, 2020 18:31:11 GMT
This whole thing sounds like an excellent argument against all of the ancestry DNA kits.
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TheOtherMeg
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,541
Jun 25, 2014 20:58:14 GMT
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Post by TheOtherMeg on Nov 29, 2020 21:52:48 GMT
So the US sibs are to just pony up the bucks for lawyers & DNA tests because the maybe (likely) German sib wants them to? And the German sib hasn't sent a nice chatty letter about any of this, or offered to help with costs or maybe have them for a visit or made *some* friendly overture?
That's what strikes me as off about this whole thing. The German sib is really asking quite a lot, and isn't making any effort to acknowledge this fact.
How hard would it have been to say, "I need legal proof to have John Doe, the man I assume is our father, on my birth certificate. I'm terribly sorry this burden is to be borne by you, and of course I will cover the costs associated with providing ABC. Also, when we can all travel safely, I'd love to have you over to visit blahblahblah... "
The emotional aspect is a whole different discussion, but the financial & logistical burdens the German sib is just assuming the US sib(s) will take on, without even being willing to have a conversation with them... Well, I'm not surprised the US sibs aren't feeling terribly cooperative.
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