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Post by scrappinmom3 on Apr 10, 2021 0:36:19 GMT
I visited Dachau the summer after I graduated from high school with the marching band (I was on the color guard). It was beyond sobering. I will never forget what I saw. Fast forward 41 years later and I am working as a English Language para in high school and the students in one teachers ELA class will begin reading “Night” by Elie Wiesel, a survivor of the Holocaust. I will be reading it as well.
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Post by freecharlie on Apr 10, 2021 0:46:11 GMT
Yes, I can name quote a few
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Post by alsomsknit on Apr 10, 2021 0:47:15 GMT
I could name a number of them given time to think. My WWII/Holocaust education came from an insatiable desire to read, not school. However, I did learn quite a bit about some battles from, I think, a US History college class. WWII through the eyes of Easy Company.
Asked my son if he could name any...just Auschwitz.
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Post by pjaye on Apr 10, 2021 1:02:18 GMT
I could name 7.
My grandmother is Polish and was put into a work camp at the end of the war. A few years ago my mother visited Poland and went to see if the camp was still there, it wasn't, there was just a memorial stone. When my mother got back home we googled it...and it turns out that during the war it had been a death camp. In the process of doing that, I brought up a map that had all the concentration/death camps on it, and even though I have a good understanding of the Holocaust I was still shocked at just how many there were.
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DEX
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,404
Aug 9, 2014 23:13:22 GMT
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Post by DEX on Apr 10, 2021 1:49:08 GMT
I am able to name many. I used to work in a Jewish hospital. The hospital was established originally because Jewish and black doctors couldn't practice at many of the local hospitals. I will never forget the many times I had to start an IV in an arm with the tattooed number on it. At times I kissed the tattoo or rubbed my fingers over it gently. At this time this was mainly with elderly, sick patients. Another thing I noticed is how involved the families were. Everyone came to visit and supported the patient. Meanwhile, down the hall, the little Swedish lady sat alone.
In orientation this tiny little Jewish woman explained to us what many of the patients had been through. I will always appreciate and be humbled by what they went through.
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Post by Lindarina on Apr 10, 2021 11:45:57 GMT
I can name quite a few, but I don’t think it’s that important. Memorizing names doesn’t mean someone understands.
Kids need to know concentration camps existed, what happened there, and most importantly the events leading up to WWII so that history never repeats itself.
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Post by miominmio on Apr 10, 2021 12:05:09 GMT
I can name quite a few, but I don’t think it’s that important. Memorizing names doesn’t mean someone understands. Kids need to know concentration camps existed, what happened there, and most importantly the events leading up to WWII so that history never repeats itself. What are your thoughts on how we teach about the camps and WW2 in Norway? I have been quite (Ehh... «very») vocal about the fact that maybe they should teach about the concentration camps we had in Norway. Most kids (I hope) have heard about Grini, but that was a kindergarten compared to the others. I fear kids grow up thinking «it couldn’t happen here, we were the good guys», when in fact the Norwegian guards in some of the camps were so violent that the Wehrmacht replaced them with Germans. That even young kids were murdered here. True, the numbers pale in comparison to what happened in the east, but reading about 12 yo’s being dragged screaming to their execution, is heartbreaking, even decades later. Why we demolished the camps and swept the story under the carpet, is something I wish we could rectify today.
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Post by elaine on Apr 10, 2021 14:29:09 GMT
I can name quite a few, but I don’t think it’s that important. Memorizing names doesn’t mean someone understands. Kids need to know concentration camps existed, what happened there, and most importantly the events leading up to WWII so that history never repeats itself. What are your thoughts on how we teach about the camps and WW2 in Norway? I have been quite (Ehh... «very») vocal about the fact that maybe they should teach about the concentration camps we had in Norway. Most kids (I hope) have heard about Grini, but that was a kindergarten compared to the others. I fear kids grow up thinking «it couldn’t happen here, we were the good guys», when in fact the Norwegian guards in some of the camps were so violent that the Wehrmacht replaced them with Germans. That even young kids were murdered here. True, the numbers pale in comparison to what happened in the east, but reading about 12 yo’s being dragged screaming to their execution, is heartbreaking, even decades later. Why we demolished the camps and swept the story under the carpet, is something I wish we could rectify today. I am so glad that you posted about this, miominmio. Being Jewish, I started learning about the Holocaust in kindergarten religious school (our version of Sunday school). I’ve been to the Holocaust museum in DC and Yad Vashem (in Israel) multiple times. I’ve been to Anne Frank’s house and the Resistance Museum in Amsterdam. But I didn’t know much at all about Norway’s part in the “Master Plan.” I’ve learned something new from you and I’m going to try to find more information on it. 😀 I’m off to look for a good book or so,e websites.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 14:35:04 GMT
I can think of a couple. It is not something I was ever taught about in history lessons at my particular school in the UK.
For some reason our history lessons went from Tudor kings to Middle Eastern troubles in the 1960’s . There was a huge blank gap in between that was never explained. Perhaps each school was different.
I do remember going on a German exchange visit with our school and learning about ‘ the white rose ‘ which was a film we watched showing that many german people did not have Nazi sympathies. The german family I stayed with were lovely and certainly not proud of that part of their history.
I think it is important to know what horrors have occurred to make sure they never repeat in any country. Reading a few travel books in my twenties that touched on the history of the British Empire and atrocities that I had previously not been aware of gave me a shock too - and not in a good way !
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Post by Lindarina on Apr 10, 2021 15:38:48 GMT
What are your thoughts on how we teach about the camps and WW2 in Norway? I have been quite (Ehh... «very») vocal about the fact that maybe they should teach about the concentration camps we had in Norway. Most kids (I hope) have heard about Grini, but that was a kindergarten compared to the others. I fear kids grow up thinking «it couldn’t happen here, we were the good guys», when in fact the Norwegian guards in some of the camps were so violent that the Wehrmacht replaced them with Germans. That even young kids were murdered here. True, the numbers pale in comparison to what happened in the east, but reading about 12 yo’s being dragged screaming to their execution, is heartbreaking, even decades later. Why we demolished the camps and swept the story under the carpet, is something I wish we could rectify today. I am so glad that you posted about this, miominmio . Being Jewish, I started learning about the Holocaust in kindergarten religious school (our version of Sunday school). I’ve been to the Holocaust museum in DC and Yad Vashem (in Israel) multiple times. I’ve been to Anne Frank’s house and the Resistance Museum in Amsterdam. But I didn’t know much at all about Norway’s part in the “Master Plan.” I’ve learned something new from you and I’m going to try to find more information on it. 😀 I’m off to look for a good book or so,e websites. My Great Grandfather was arrested and taken to Grini in Norway. He was part of the resistance and gave shelter to Jewish people at the botanical garden where he worked. I have definitly exposed my own children to the history of Norwegian camps. But, I don’t think they ever learned about them in school. The focus was on Auschwitz because of the school trip they make.
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sueg
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Post by sueg on Apr 10, 2021 15:39:18 GMT
I have been quite (Ehh... «very») vocal about the fact that maybe they should teach about the concentration camps we had in Norway. Most kids (I hope) have heard about Grini, but that was a kindergarten compared to the others. I fear kids grow up thinking «it couldn’t happen here, we were the good guys», when in fact the Norwegian guards in some of the camps were so violent that the Wehrmacht replaced them with Germans. That even young kids were murdered here. True, the numbers pale in comparison to what happened in the east, but reading about 12 yo’s being dragged screaming to their execution, is heartbreaking, even decades later. Why we demolished the camps and swept the story under the carpet, is something I wish we could rectify today. I had a chat with out tour guide when we visited Auschwitz - Birkenau a couple of years back, about the difference between the Polish and German responses to the camps after the war. Poland almost immediately decided to preserve what the could of the camps, and not long after looked at making some into memorial sites. Germany - though sometime it was the occupying forces as well - did as Norway did and demolished most of them pretty quickly. She felt that there was a difference in attitude between Poland having it 'done to them', so they wanted to remind the world of it, and Germany being the perpetrators, who would have liked the world to forget/not know. I wonder if there was some guilt on the part of some Norwegians who worked in the camps, which made them want to erase this part of your history?
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Post by Lindarina on Apr 10, 2021 15:53:14 GMT
I have been quite (Ehh... «very») vocal about the fact that maybe they should teach about the concentration camps we had in Norway. Most kids (I hope) have heard about Grini, but that was a kindergarten compared to the others. I fear kids grow up thinking «it couldn’t happen here, we were the good guys», when in fact the Norwegian guards in some of the camps were so violent that the Wehrmacht replaced them with Germans. That even young kids were murdered here. True, the numbers pale in comparison to what happened in the east, but reading about 12 yo’s being dragged screaming to their execution, is heartbreaking, even decades later. Why we demolished the camps and swept the story under the carpet, is something I wish we could rectify today. I had a chat with out tour guide when we visited Auschwitz - Birkenau a couple of years back, about the difference between the Polish and German responses to the camps after the war. Poland almost immediately decided to preserve what the could of the camps, and not long after looked at making some into memorial sites. Germany - though sometime it was the occupying forces as well - did as Norway did and demolished most of them pretty quickly. She felt that there was a difference in attitude between Poland having it 'done to them', so they wanted to remind the world of it, and Germany being the perpetrators, who would have liked the world to forget/not know. I wonder if there was some guilt on the part of some Norwegians who worked in the camps, which made them want to erase this part of your history? The biggest camp in Norway, Grini, was originally a prison and went back to being a prison after the war. I don’t know what happened to the other camps, though. Germany invaded us and there was definitely a desire to remove many signs of the occupation after the war.
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Post by miominmio on Apr 10, 2021 17:27:06 GMT
What are your thoughts on how we teach about the camps and WW2 in Norway? I have been quite (Ehh... «very») vocal about the fact that maybe they should teach about the concentration camps we had in Norway. Most kids (I hope) have heard about Grini, but that was a kindergarten compared to the others. I fear kids grow up thinking «it couldn’t happen here, we were the good guys», when in fact the Norwegian guards in some of the camps were so violent that the Wehrmacht replaced them with Germans. That even young kids were murdered here. True, the numbers pale in comparison to what happened in the east, but reading about 12 yo’s being dragged screaming to their execution, is heartbreaking, even decades later. Why we demolished the camps and swept the story under the carpet, is something I wish we could rectify today. I am so glad that you posted about this, miominmio . Being Jewish, I started learning about the Holocaust in kindergarten religious school (our version of Sunday school). I’ve been to the Holocaust museum in DC and Yad Vashem (in Israel) multiple times. I’ve been to Anne Frank’s house and the Resistance Museum in Amsterdam. But I didn’t know much at all about Norway’s part in the “Master Plan.” I’ve learned something new from you and I’m going to try to find more information on it. 😀 I’m off to look for a good book or so,e websites. I don’t know of any books in English about this, and up until recently very little had been published about it in Norway. You could find a little bit here or there, but that was all. If you contact the Holocaust museum in Oslo, they will be able to tell you if there’s anything published in English. I think the main reason that the Norwegian prison camps are mostly forgotten, is that we didn’t have the industrial scale of extermination of people that happened in Germany and the east. And those who suffered the most, were the prisoners who came from Eastern Europe, and after the war, they became the enemy.
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Post by miominmio on Apr 10, 2021 17:28:14 GMT
I had a chat with out tour guide when we visited Auschwitz - Birkenau a couple of years back, about the difference between the Polish and German responses to the camps after the war. Poland almost immediately decided to preserve what the could of the camps, and not long after looked at making some into memorial sites. Germany - though sometime it was the occupying forces as well - did as Norway did and demolished most of them pretty quickly. She felt that there was a difference in attitude between Poland having it 'done to them', so they wanted to remind the world of it, and Germany being the perpetrators, who would have liked the world to forget/not know. I wonder if there was some guilt on the part of some Norwegians who worked in the camps, which made them want to erase this part of your history? The biggest camp in Norway, Grini, was originally a prison and went back to being a prison after the war. I don’t know what happened to the other camps, though. Germany invaded us and there was definitely a desire to remove many signs of the occupation after the war. With the exception of Falstad, they were all demolished.
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Post by elaine on Apr 10, 2021 17:30:31 GMT
I am so glad that you posted about this, miominmio . Being Jewish, I started learning about the Holocaust in kindergarten religious school (our version of Sunday school). I’ve been to the Holocaust museum in DC and Yad Vashem (in Israel) multiple times. I’ve been to Anne Frank’s house and the Resistance Museum in Amsterdam. But I didn’t know much at all about Norway’s part in the “Master Plan.” I’ve learned something new from you and I’m going to try to find more information on it. 😀 I’m off to look for a good book or so,e websites. I don’t know of any books in English about this, and up until recently very little had been published about it in Norway. You could find a little bit here or there, but that was all. If you contact the Holocaust museum in Oslo, they will be able to tell you if there’s anything published in English. I think the main reason that the Norwegian prison camps are mostly forgotten, is that we didn’t have the industrial scale of extermination of people that happened in Germany and the east. And those who suffered the most, were the prisoners who came from Eastern Europe, and after the war, they became the enemy. Even though it gets mixed reviews for the writing, I purchased this one on Amazon: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003TFE1G2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o01?ie=UTF8&psc=1”We are Going to Pick Potatoes: Norway & the Holocaust” It is a first-hand account written by a Jewish woman who was able to escape Norway to the United States. Thank you again for your posts here.
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Post by miominmio on Apr 10, 2021 17:32:38 GMT
I have been quite (Ehh... «very») vocal about the fact that maybe they should teach about the concentration camps we had in Norway. Most kids (I hope) have heard about Grini, but that was a kindergarten compared to the others. I fear kids grow up thinking «it couldn’t happen here, we were the good guys», when in fact the Norwegian guards in some of the camps were so violent that the Wehrmacht replaced them with Germans. That even young kids were murdered here. True, the numbers pale in comparison to what happened in the east, but reading about 12 yo’s being dragged screaming to their execution, is heartbreaking, even decades later. Why we demolished the camps and swept the story under the carpet, is something I wish we could rectify today. I had a chat with out tour guide when we visited Auschwitz - Birkenau a couple of years back, about the difference between the Polish and German responses to the camps after the war. Poland almost immediately decided to preserve what the could of the camps, and not long after looked at making some into memorial sites. Germany - though sometime it was the occupying forces as well - did as Norway did and demolished most of them pretty quickly. She felt that there was a difference in attitude between Poland having it 'done to them', so they wanted to remind the world of it, and Germany being the perpetrators, who would have liked the world to forget/not know. I wonder if there was some guilt on the part of some Norwegians who worked in the camps, which made them want to erase this part of your history? Those who were Nazis were ostracized after the war, and had no say in the removal of the physical remains of those camps. I think, and some historians have suggested that this might be the case, that the prisoners in Norway weren’t Jewish (the Jews were very quickly shipped from Norway and sent to Poland, we had a Jewish population that only counted a few hundred people), but were citizens of The Soviet union and other Eastern block countries. When the cold war started, they weren’t victims anymore, but belonged to the enemy.
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quiltz
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Post by quiltz on Apr 10, 2021 18:41:05 GMT
Meanwhile, down the hall, the little Swedish lady sat alone. Are you stating that the little Swedish lady that sat alone was alone because she was Swedish or that she didn't have family or what? She could be the only remaining survivor in her family. Her family could live very far away. Not ALL families are the same. To insinuate that she was alone because she wasn't Jewish is a horrible assumption. Someday I WILL be that little old lady, all alone due to many reasons (that aren't any of your business) but the way you have talked about this lady is wrong and you are making many assumptions.
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Post by bc2ca on Apr 10, 2021 18:55:38 GMT
To insinuate that she was alone because she wasn't Jewish is a horrible assumption. I'm not sure how you read that into DEX's post?
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quiltz
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Post by quiltz on Apr 10, 2021 19:42:50 GMT
I used to work in a Jewish hospital. The hospital was established originally because Jewish and black doctors couldn't practice at many of the local hospitals. I will never forget the many times I had to start an IV in an arm with the tattooed number on it. At times I kissed the tattoo or rubbed my fingers over it gently.At this time this was mainly with elderly, sick patients. Another thing I noticed is how involved the families were. Everyone came to visit and supported the patient. Meanwhile, down the hall, the little Swedish lady sat alone. Are you stating that the little Swedish lady that sat alone was alone because she was Swedish or that she didn't have family or what?
She could be the only remaining survivor in her family. Her family could live very far away. Not ALL families are the same.
To insinuate that she was alone because she wasn't Jewish is a horrible assumption.Someday I WILL be that little old lady, all alone due to many reasons (that aren't any of your business) but the way you have talked about this lady is wrong and you are making many assumptions. I'm not sure how you read that into DEX's post? What I read in DEX post was that the Jewish people seemed to have had someone, family, around them in their time of need but the little Swedish lady that sat alone, didn't have anyone to care for her because she wasn't Jewish and that her family didn't care, because she didn't have family with her. (Sorry for the long run-on sentence). I am VERY sensitive when people point out that a person who is alone in a time of need doesn't have a supporting family to care for them. I am alone with no family there to be with me BECAUSE they have died in young age. No fault of anyone, but the truth isn't kind. I truly RESENT when someone will ask me where my family is, insinuating that my family doesn't care enough to be there with me. They are with me, in spirit. People make judgments about people alone in a crisis, as if they are or it "looks" like that they are un-loveable.
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Post by librarylady on Apr 10, 2021 19:59:22 GMT
Re: title of this thread
I was trying to select a title that might get others to read about the younger generation with little knowledge of the Holocaust. I never meant to imply that we should have the names of the camps memorized, but do admit that one could think I meant that.
I find it beyond awful that we have a large group of people in the world who deny that the Holocaust happened.
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Post by pynke on Apr 10, 2021 20:29:06 GMT
Herzogenbusch or Kamp Vught was located in Vught, Netherlands. My grandfather was murdered here.
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Post by freecharlie on Apr 11, 2021 2:12:02 GMT
I’m a 59 year old college graduate and never was taught anything about the Holocaust in public school or college. that is just so sad to me
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Post by KelleeM on Apr 11, 2021 11:30:05 GMT
I’m a 59 year old college graduate and never was taught anything about the Holocaust in public school or college. that is just so sad to me It’s beyond sad, really. If it weren’t for the fact that I had no control over the curriculum I’d be very embarrassed. It doesn’t mean that I haven’t learned on my own though.
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Post by SockMonkey on Apr 11, 2021 13:01:39 GMT
librarylady I know your intentions were not to exclude or minimize the study of the Holocaust. It's so important that we teach this in school, that we all talk about this in our homes, not only because of what happened, then, but also because of the ways that actions of many led up to it, and because of how things like this are still happening around the world today. The Nazis looked to the US's treatment of Black Americans for inspiration; Jim Crow laws served as models. We put Japanese Americans in internment camps. The Bosnian genocide happened in the mid 1990s, when many of us were already in college and starting families. Today, the Chinese government is imprisoning Uyghur people in camps. The horrors of the Holocaust are not just a moment in time, they're a representation of the worst that humans can do when power, greed, and hate are allowed to act unchecked by justice and love.
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Post by auntkelly on Apr 11, 2021 14:17:41 GMT
I can name quite a few, but I don’t think it’s that important. Memorizing names doesn’t mean someone understands. Kids need to know concentration camps existed, what happened there, and most importantly the events leading up to WWII so that history never repeats itself. What are your thoughts on how we teach about the camps and WW2 in Norway? I have been quite (Ehh... «very») vocal about the fact that maybe they should teach about the concentration camps we had in Norway. Most kids (I hope) have heard about Grini, but that was a kindergarten compared to the others. I fear kids grow up thinking «it couldn’t happen here, we were the good guys», when in fact the Norwegian guards in some of the camps were so violent that the Wehrmacht replaced them with Germans. That even young kids were murdered here. True, the numbers pale in comparison to what happened in the east, but reading about 12 yo’s being dragged screaming to their execution, is heartbreaking, even decades later. Why we demolished the camps and swept the story under the carpet, is something I wish we could rectify today. I didn't know there were concentration camps in Norway. Like many Americans, I read John Steinbeck's The Moon is Down in high school and it left me with the impression that Norway was a shining light during WWII. I thought just about everyone in Norway was part of the resistance and the few who collaborated w/ the Nazis were kind of cartoonish character bad guys who didn't really have any impact. I guess it just shows that there are good and bad people everywhere and if we neglect parts of our history, we are bound to repeat it.
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Post by vspindler on Apr 11, 2021 14:32:52 GMT
My history teacher in high school (back in the early 90s) was a pacifist who refused to teach (lecture) the war chapters of our textbook. Those would be “do the reading, do a worksheet packet, and take a test” learning. But for WW2.
He was also the AV guy in the school and had led a school visit in o Auschwitz. He took photos & video from the trip and set it to music. We watched that video twice. Once just the images and the music, and then a second time where he turned the audio off and explained what we were seeing. It was very powerful.
I am very disturbed at the idea that the camps may be denied or forgotten, but I think less important than the names is the knowledge of what took place inside them.
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Post by glory77 on Apr 11, 2021 15:41:02 GMT
Yes, I could name them. It’s very sad to me that there are adults that can’t even name one of them.
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Post by freecharlie on Apr 11, 2021 15:44:48 GMT
Today is the anniversary of the liberation of Buchenwald.
April is full of anniversaries.
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Post by miominmio on Apr 11, 2021 18:49:30 GMT
What are your thoughts on how we teach about the camps and WW2 in Norway? I have been quite (Ehh... «very») vocal about the fact that maybe they should teach about the concentration camps we had in Norway. Most kids (I hope) have heard about Grini, but that was a kindergarten compared to the others. I fear kids grow up thinking «it couldn’t happen here, we were the good guys», when in fact the Norwegian guards in some of the camps were so violent that the Wehrmacht replaced them with Germans. That even young kids were murdered here. True, the numbers pale in comparison to what happened in the east, but reading about 12 yo’s being dragged screaming to their execution, is heartbreaking, even decades later. Why we demolished the camps and swept the story under the carpet, is something I wish we could rectify today. I didn't know there were concentration camps in Norway. Like many Americans, I read John Steinbeck's The Moon is Down in high school and it left me with the impression that Norway was a shining light during WWII. I thought just about everyone in Norway was part of the resistance and the few who collaborated w/ the Nazis were kind of cartoonish character bad guys who didn't really have any impact. I guess it just shows that there are good and bad people everywhere and if we neglect parts of our history, we are bound to repeat it. We had a population of 3 million, and 92.000 were under investigation after the war, and 46.000 were convicted. Admittedly, we did persecute those who were just members of Nasjonal Samling, but the numbers are still high. the reason you haven’t heard about the Norwegian camps, are probably for the following reasons: 1) they weren’t extermination camps with gas chambers, 2) the number of prisoners were much smaller (102.000...we think. About 15.000 died), 3) the prisoners were mostly adult males (around 10% were women and children), 4) after the war, they became the enemy (most of them came from Eastern Europe, although Norwegians also died in those camps and 5) it didn’t fit with the national narrative of us being the good guys. Some of us were, some weren’t and the rest were just trying to stay alive.
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Post by MissBianca on Apr 11, 2021 19:27:12 GMT
I can’t name any besides Auschwitz, but I should know more because my husband is a WWII history buff and I’m currently reading a novel based during the time England became involved in the war. But I’m also terrible with remembering names like that. But I have seen a lot of movies and documentaries as well as visiting the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC. I do wish I had spent more time there but it was an 8th grade class trip and the kids lacked some patience.
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