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Post by myshelly on May 13, 2021 14:39:00 GMT
Israel is not a peaceful state.
They do not want peace.
They are a violent, genocidal regime and the only reason America has been conditioned to support them is that the conservative Christians who have an ungodly amount of power in our government believe that the Jewish state must exist in order for the End Times to happen.
Israel routinely invades Palestinian territory, kills, maims, and destroys everything there, claims the territory, and then cries terrorism when the people they did that to dare to fight back.
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Post by lucyg on May 13, 2021 17:50:47 GMT
Israel is not a peaceful state. They do not want peace. They are a violent, genocidal regime and the only reason America has been conditioned to support them is that the conservative Christians who have an ungodly amount of power in our government believe that the Jewish state must exist in order for the End Times to happen. Israel routinely invades Palestinian territory, kills, maims, and destroys everything there, claims the territory, and then cries terrorism when the people they did that to dare to fight back. If you can only see the violence and terrorism on one side, that doesn’t make your opinion particularly worthy of respect.
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Post by peasapie on May 13, 2021 21:43:42 GMT
Anyone who takes a side on this misses half the truth, because both sides have been fighting for centuries. Add in the US artificially drawing lines after WWll and you have the current situation. I see no end in sight. Ever.
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Post by myshelly on May 14, 2021 0:53:11 GMT
Israel is not a peaceful state. They do not want peace. They are a violent, genocidal regime and the only reason America has been conditioned to support them is that the conservative Christians who have an ungodly amount of power in our government believe that the Jewish state must exist in order for the End Times to happen. Israel routinely invades Palestinian territory, kills, maims, and destroys everything there, claims the territory, and then cries terrorism when the people they did that to dare to fight back. If you can only see the violence and terrorism on one side, that doesn’t make your opinion particularly worthy of respect. I do not only see violence on one side. There is undoubtedly violence on BOTH sides. That does not, however, make one side terrorists. I just don’t understand why people buy into the brainwashing that Israel is right and the Palestinians are “terrorists”. Israel isn’t any more right or any more innocent or any more peaceful than Palestine. We should not support them. When people say things like “I stand with Israel” or our government calls Israel an ally, they are only seeing one side. When people report events the way scrappinghappy did on this thread, they are only seeing one side. There are serious academics who call the Israeli regime genocidal and apartheid. They are not taking sides, they are simply pointing out that the Israelis’ actions match the academic definitions of those words and the world needs to start reacting to the regime accordingly. The bastards just mounted an invasion and started a full scale war.
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Post by Zee on May 14, 2021 1:41:17 GMT
I've often wondered why here in the US Israel is the hero in this story and the Palestinians are terrorists. Sometimes people fight back. We're not giving the land back to the Native Americans, but if they tried to take it back, could we blame them? Just because we "won" all those Indian Wars, does that make us right?
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Post by iamkristinl16 on May 14, 2021 1:48:35 GMT
I've often wondered why here in the US Israel is the hero in this story and the Palestinians are terrorists. Sometimes people fight back. We're not giving the land back to the Native Americans, but if they tried to take it back, could we blame them? Just because we "won" all those Indian Wars, does that make us right? I've always been wondering this as well. I am no expert in Israel/Palestinian relations. However, I think this is the first thread here where I recall anyone holding Israel accountable for their part. Usually it is said that anyone who questions Israel is anti-Semitic (at least that has been my impression).
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Post by myshelly on May 14, 2021 1:53:22 GMT
I've often wondered why here in the US Israel is the hero in this story and the Palestinians are terrorists. Sometimes people fight back. We're not giving the land back to the Native Americans, but if they tried to take it back, could we blame them? Just because we "won" all those Indian Wars, does that make us right? I've always been wondering this as well. I am no expert in Israel/Palestinian relations. However, I think this is the first thread here where I recall anyone holding Israel accountable for their part. Usually it is said that anyone who questions Israel is anti-Semitic (at least that has been my impression). This has definitely been true in the US. We have been taught to believe that Israel is right and Palestinians are terrorists. There are a lot of evangelical beliefs that have shaped America’s opinion of Israel based on what Christians want to happen in order for the End Times to come about, not based on the actual history of Israel’s actions. In order to fully understand the US’s position, you need to understand Christian Zionism. This is why “I stand with Israel” is a conservative Christian Republican belief. In the most recent polls I can find, 79% of republicans support Israel, compared to 27% of democrats. With more academics condemning Israel’s actions as genocide, the tide is finally starting to turn and more information is coming out about both sides instead of going straight to calling the Palestinians terrorists.
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on May 14, 2021 2:52:49 GMT
It’s always the innocent everyday Israeli and Palestinian people, just going about their lives, who disproportionately bear the brunt and the consequences of these disputes. That makes me really sad.
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Post by peano on May 14, 2021 2:53:52 GMT
I've often wondered why here in the US Israel is the hero in this story and the Palestinians are terrorists. Sometimes people fight back. We're not giving the land back to the Native Americans, but if they tried to take it back, could we blame them? Just because we "won" all those Indian Wars, does that make us right? Christianity.
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Post by myshelly on May 14, 2021 4:08:02 GMT
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scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,306
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
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Post by scrappinghappy on May 14, 2021 6:00:35 GMT
So its ok for Hamas to fire over 800 rockets into Israel but because Israel has the Iron Dome and can eradicate the majority of them, this is not an act of terrorism? Most of the Israelis and Palestinians I have met, are not happy with the situation. They just want peace. It’s the politics that create and sustain the storm. There are two sides to every story, dont blind yourself to one side by your belief in the other. If Israel is commiting war crimes by firing TARGETED missiles at Hamas, what is Hamas doing by firing random rockets into civilian areas all over southern Israel? Myshelly’s quote can be read as true from both sides and two wrongs dont make it right.
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Post by myshelly on May 14, 2021 6:07:15 GMT
So its ok for Hamas to fire over 800 rockets into Israel but because Israel has the Iron Dome and can eradicate the majority of them, this is not an act of terrorism? Most of the Israelis and Palestinians I have met, are not happy with the situation. They just want peace. It’s the politics that create and sustain the storm. There are two sides to every story, dont blind yourself to one side by your belief in the other. If Israel is commiting war crimes by firing TARGETED missiles at Hamas, what is Hamas doing by firing random rockets into civilian areas all over southern Israel? Myshelly’s quote can be read as true from both sides and two wrongs dont make it right. The issue is the west treats the situation like Israel is right. We can’t keep supporting them, giving them weapons, and acquiescing to their demands while we act like the other side are terrorists. Nowhere in any of my arguments am I saying that Palestine is right. I’m saying Israel is not right. Although I don’t think anyone can deny that Israel started and then escalated the current round of the shit show.
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Post by myshelly on May 14, 2021 6:19:07 GMT
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Post by KiwiJo on May 14, 2021 6:52:20 GMT
The issue is the west treats the situation like Israel is right. We can’t keep supporting them, giving them weapons, and acquiescing to their demands while we act like the other side are terrorists. Nowhere in any of my arguments am I saying that Palestine is right. I’m saying Israel is not right. Although I don’t think anyone can deny that Israel started and then escalated the current round of the shit show. I completely agree with you that saying Israel is not right is NOT the same as saying Palestine is. But I do feel the need to point out that it’s not really ‘the west’ that treats the situation like Israel is right - by far most of the weapons supplied to the whole area come from the US alone, to Israel. The Times of Israel posted this article in 2019, which states that while Israel is the 8th biggest arms exporter in the world (it’s 3 biggest clients are India, Azerbaijan, Vietnam), they do receive a lot of military aid themselves:- “The report also found a large increase in American arms exports to Israel, with 64% of Israel’s weaponry procurements coming from the US. Twenty-seven percent of Israel’s arms imports came from Germany, and 8.9% from Italy.” so..... 64% from USA 27% from Germany 8.9% from Italy 0.1% from everywhere else. Where does Palestine get its weapons? The Washington Post has just reported on this: What weapons do Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip have and how powerful are they?This article suggests that Palestine makes most of their own weapons. ”Although militants used to smuggle weapons across the Egyptian border, that route has virtually been sealed off since Egypt cracked down on the practice after President Abdel Fatah al-Sissi took power in 2013. Although it has become increasingly difficult to obtain fully assembled weapons from abroad, Hamas leaders bragged on an Al Jazeera program in September that they had managed to sneak Fajr missiles and Russian Kornet antitank shells into Gaza via land and sea. Now, the group produces the bulk of its weapons at facilities in Gaza using homemade and smuggled materials and know-how transmitted from Iran and Lebanese militant group Hezbollah.“
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Post by monklady123 on May 14, 2021 10:30:57 GMT
I've often wondered why here in the US Israel is the hero in this story and the Palestinians are terrorists. Sometimes people fight back. We're not giving the land back to the Native Americans, but if they tried to take it back, could we blame them? Just because we "won" all those Indian Wars, does that make us right? Christianity. Not "Christianity", more like "the conservative right-wing 'Christians.'"
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 14, 2021 10:47:31 GMT
Anyone who takes a side on this misses half the truth, because both sides have been fighting for centuries. Add in the US artificially drawing lines after WWll and you have the current situation. I see no end in sight. Ever. The Palestinians are encircled. I think the military strategy of Israel is pretty clear: push the last ones out and erase the country as a whole from the map. They are cut off from direct routes out of Palestine now and need to pass through Israeli borders no matter what to get out. Out of a total of 12 million Palestinians, only 4.6 are left in Palestine. This is clearly the endgame. I don't see a way out of this situation either. The push and gobbling up of Palestinian land inexorably continues under the right wing Isreali government.
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Post by mollycoddle on May 14, 2021 10:55:28 GMT
I know that tensions have been going on for years, but TBH, I have not paid a lot of attention. But in reading about the current conflict, I read this:
“ Conflicts around al-Aqsa Mosque have flared up before, igniting tensions around the Middle East. But in recent days, international attention has also increased around the decades-old legal battle in Sheikh Jarrah, where a group of Israelis is trying to evict and replace mostly refugee Palestinian families from homes. Many Palestinians say the case is emblematic of their displacement from Jerusalem. Arab citizens of Israel, as well as Palestinians in the West Bank and neighboring Arab countries, have been holding protests in solidarity with Sheikh Jarrah.”
I have a question. WHY are settlers trying to evict Palestinian families from their home? Is this a naked land grab, or is something else at play here?
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 14, 2021 11:03:36 GMT
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 14, 2021 11:06:04 GMT
I have a question. WHY are settlers trying to evict Palestinian families from their home? Is this a naked land grab, or is something else at play here? It is the right-wing government's plan. They are taking the land, period. They are actively financing settlement. You can check out Al Jazeera's interactive maps + videos of disappearing Palestine to get an understanding of the "creation" of an extended and all-enveloping Israel territory.
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Post by mollycoddle on May 14, 2021 11:32:04 GMT
I have a question. WHY are settlers trying to evict Palestinian families from their home? Is this a naked land grab, or is something else at play here? It is the right-wing government's plan. They are taking the land, period. They are actively financing settlement. You can check out Al Jazeera's interactive maps + videos of disappearing Palestine to get an understanding of the "creation" of an extended and all-enveloping Israel territory. I had read about the Israeli RW. I guess that makes me wonder why my govt. does not tie aid to stopping settlers from seizing land.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on May 14, 2021 12:02:01 GMT
The Daily (from NYtimes, not The Daily Show) had a good episode about this yesterday.
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Post by myshelly on May 15, 2021 14:31:54 GMT
Now the Israelis have bombed a refugee camp, killing children.
They have given warning that they are bombing the media next.
Do you know how many Palestinians have died since Monday? 140 including 39 children. How many Israelis? 9. How many Israeli children? 0.
Do you know how many Israelis have been injured in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict in 2020 according to the UN? 61 How many Palestinians? 2781
In 2019 the numbers were 133 / 15681
In 2018 the numbers were 130 / 31558
Total Deaths from 2008-2020 Palestinian: 5590 Israeli: 251
So, why am I anti-Israeli? Because you can clearly see who is perpetrating the violence.
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Post by snowsilver on May 15, 2021 15:57:34 GMT
This is complicated and there is fault on both sides. But for those of you unilaterally blaming Israel, I have to disagree. Perhaps it would be good to go back for decades and see how many innocent Israelis have died due to terrorist Palestinians. Innocent people riding buses. Going about their daily schedule. Just trying to live. Israel has come out on top for the past decade or so, but before that, every Israeli knew he or she could die any day. Imagine living like that. They fought back and they won. I don't pretend to understand the whole situation with the taking over of the homes of the Palestinians, and perhaps Israel really is in the wrong with that. Maybe some of our friends here who do understand it better than I could come and explain. But after what the Israelis went through for years just trying to occupy (and massively improve) the land that was given back to them through an agreement brokered by the United Nations, I have to say my sympathies lie with them. And many seem to forget that the land was NOT owned by Palestine at the time of the brokered deal. It had been won and occupied by Britain. The whole thing was an effort to find a home for the Jews after the Holocaust and it was the most fair solution that could be determined.
I do not believe that Israel plays any part at all in the End of Times. My study of the Bible suggests that thinking that they do is a complete misapplication of prophecy. So I am not defending Israel for that reason at all. I just think that history shows a pretty clear story of terrorism against Israel by the Palestinians and a complete lack of interest in any of the Arab states in taking in any of the displaced Palestinians. Which says a whole lot!
I always recommend Richard North Patterson's book Exile to people who vehemently take one side or the other. It was the most eye-opening book on the situation I have ever read. He put so much research in it and interviewed so many people on both sides. After reading it, I knew in my own heart, that there is no "fix" for this. And never will be. By far the majority of people on both sides of the question want peace. They just want to live their lives. But the militants on BOTH sides refuse to let that happen. In their minds, there can be no peace until the other side in completely wiped off the map.
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Post by monklady123 on May 15, 2021 16:02:51 GMT
This is complicated and there is fault on both sides. But for those of you unilaterally blaming Israel, I have to disagree. Perhaps it would be good to go back for decades and see how many innocent Israelis have died due to terrorist Palestinians. Innocent people riding buses. Going about their daily schedule. Just trying to live. Israel has come out on top for the past decade or so, but before that, every Israeli knew he or she could die any day. Imagine living like that. They fought back and they won. I don't pretend to understand the whole situation with the taking over of the homes of the Palestinians, and perhaps Israel really is in the wrong with that. Maybe some of our friends here who do understand it better than I could come and explain. But after what the Israelis went through for years just trying to occupy (and massively improve) the land that was given back to them through an agreement brokered by the United Nations, I have to say my sympathies lie with them. And many seem to forget that the land was NOT owned by Palestine at the time of the brokered deal. It had been won and occupied by Britain. The whole thing was an effort to find a home for the Jews after the Holocaust and it was the most fair solution that could be determined. I do not believe that Israel plays any part at all in the End of Times. My study of the Bible suggests that thinking that they do is a complete misapplication of prophecy. So I am not defending Israel for that reason at all. I just think that history shows a pretty clear story of terrorism against Israel by the Palestinians and a complete lack of interest in any of the Arab states in taking in any of the displaced Palestinians. Which says a whole lot! I always recommend Richard North Patterson's book Exile to people who vehemently take one side or the other. It was the most eye-opening book on the situation I have ever read. He put so much research in it and interviewed so many people on both sides. After reading it, I knew in my own heart, that there is no "fix" for this. And never will be. By far the majority of people on both sides of the question want peace. They just want to live their lives. But the militants on BOTH sides refuse to let that happen. In their minds, there can be no peace until the other side in completely wiped off the map. Do you mean his novel called "Exile"? If so, I wouldn't use a novel for historical information no matter how well researched.
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Post by myshelly on May 15, 2021 16:06:50 GMT
This is complicated and there is fault on both sides. But for those of you unilaterally blaming Israel, I have to disagree. Perhaps it would be good to go back for decades and see how many innocent Israelis have died due to terrorist Palestinians. Innocent people riding buses. Going about their daily schedule. Just trying to live. Israel has come out on top for the past decade or so, but before that, every Israeli knew he or she could die any day. Imagine living like that. They fought back and they won. I don't pretend to understand the whole situation with the taking over of the homes of the Palestinians, and perhaps Israel really is in the wrong with that. Maybe some of our friends here who do understand it better than I could come and explain. But after what the Israelis went through for years just trying to occupy (and massively improve) the land that was given back to them through an agreement brokered by the United Nations, I have to say my sympathies lie with them. And many seem to forget that the land was NOT owned by Palestine at the time of the brokered deal. It had been won and occupied by Britain. The whole thing was an effort to find a home for the Jews after the Holocaust and it was the most fair solution that could be determined. I do not believe that Israel plays any part at all in the End of Times. My study of the Bible suggests that thinking that they do is a complete misapplication of prophecy. So I am not defending Israel for that reason at all. I just think that history shows a pretty clear story of terrorism against Israel by the Palestinians and a complete lack of interest in any of the Arab states in taking in any of the displaced Palestinians. Which says a whole lot! I always recommend Richard North Patterson's book Exile to people who vehemently take one side or the other. It was the most eye-opening book on the situation I have ever read. He put so much research in it and interviewed so many people on both sides. After reading it, I knew in my own heart, that there is no "fix" for this. And never will be. By far the majority of people on both sides of the question want peace. They just want to live their lives. But the militants on BOTH sides refuse to let that happen. In their minds, there can be no peace until the other side in completely wiped off the map. Decades ago violence doesn’t justify killing people now. England isn’t suddenly going to bomb Ireland because the IRA killed some people with car bombs in the 70s and 80s. The issue isn’t who is right or wrong, the issue is why does the US support one side over the other if both sides are wrong?
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Post by snowsilver on May 15, 2021 16:09:28 GMT
This is complicated and there is fault on both sides. But for those of you unilaterally blaming Israel, I have to disagree. Perhaps it would be good to go back for decades and see how many innocent Israelis have died due to terrorist Palestinians. Innocent people riding buses. Going about their daily schedule. Just trying to live. Israel has come out on top for the past decade or so, but before that, every Israeli knew he or she could die any day. Imagine living like that. They fought back and they won. I don't pretend to understand the whole situation with the taking over of the homes of the Palestinians, and perhaps Israel really is in the wrong with that. Maybe some of our friends here who do understand it better than I could come and explain. But after what the Israelis went through for years just trying to occupy (and massively improve) the land that was given back to them through an agreement brokered by the United Nations, I have to say my sympathies lie with them. And many seem to forget that the land was NOT owned by Palestine at the time of the brokered deal. It had been won and occupied by Britain. The whole thing was an effort to find a home for the Jews after the Holocaust and it was the most fair solution that could be determined. I do not believe that Israel plays any part at all in the End of Times. My study of the Bible suggests that thinking that they do is a complete misapplication of prophecy. So I am not defending Israel for that reason at all. I just think that history shows a pretty clear story of terrorism against Israel by the Palestinians and a complete lack of interest in any of the Arab states in taking in any of the displaced Palestinians. Which says a whole lot! I always recommend Richard North Patterson's book Exile to people who vehemently take one side or the other. It was the most eye-opening book on the situation I have ever read. He put so much research in it and interviewed so many people on both sides. After reading it, I knew in my own heart, that there is no "fix" for this. And never will be. By far the majority of people on both sides of the question want peace. They just want to live their lives. But the militants on BOTH sides refuse to let that happen. In their minds, there can be no peace until the other side in completely wiped off the map. Do you mean his novel called "Exile"? If so, I wouldn't use a novel for historical information no matter how well researched. Yes, I do mean that novel. Just because it is a novel, does not mean that it does not give an excellent look at the situation. RNP interviewed many many people from both sides of the situation including high up officials. To me it was the best explanation of why there can never be a solution to this that I have ever read. Obviously, you may not agree.
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scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,306
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
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Post by scrappinghappy on May 15, 2021 17:05:50 GMT
Now the Israelis have bombed a refugee camp, killing children. They have given warning that they are bombing the media next. Do you know how many Palestinians have died since Monday? 140 including 39 children. How many Israelis? 9. How many Israeli children? 0. Do you know how many Israelis have been injured in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict in 2020 according to the UN? 61 How many Palestinians? 2781 In 2019 the numbers were 133 / 15681 In 2018 the numbers were 130 / 31558 Total Deaths from 2008-2020 Palestinian: 5590 Israeli: 251 So, why am I anti-Israeli? Because you can clearly see who is perpetrating the violence. If Israel did not have the Iron Dome, those numbers would look VERY different. Also I have to say that off the top of my head I could add in many more Israeli deaths than what you are counting due to terrorism. My niece was killed while waiting for a bus home. She was stabbed multiple times. She was murdered. The numbers do not tell who alone is perpetrating the violence but they do tell who has a better defense ssytem.
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Post by Zee on May 15, 2021 17:08:44 GMT
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Deleted
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Mar 29, 2024 13:00:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 17:29:43 GMT
I always recommend Richard North Patterson's book Exile to people who vehemently take one side or the other. It was the most eye-opening book on the situation I have ever read. He put so much research in it and interviewed so many people on both sides. After reading it, I knew in my own heart, that there is no "fix" for this. You do know that Exile is a political thriller don't you and not based on facts - it's a novel, which engages the Israeli–Palestinian conflict through a fictional trial for an accused Palestinian political assassin being defended by her former lover, a Jewish-American lawyer.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on May 15, 2021 17:31:58 GMT
The President has been on the phone all morning back and forth with Israel and Palestinians. Meetings in the Oval Office with Blinkin(?) and others. Apparently Egypt is on the line also.
(Amazing, Biden is working on Saturday, not playing golf!!!)
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