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Post by sleepingbooty on May 15, 2021 17:37:23 GMT
The numbers do not tell who alone is perpetrating the violence but they do tell who has a better defense ssytem. And those same numbers also lay bare how incredibly unbalanced the distribution of power and technology between the two perpetrators of violence is. It's simply not a fair fight nor was it ever.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 17:45:10 GMT
Now the Israelis have bombed a refugee camp, killing children. They have given warning that they are bombing the media next.
They've already done so. They bombed the tower block to the ground. Many media offices were based there including the Associated Press.
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 15, 2021 17:53:47 GMT
Now the Israelis have bombed a refugee camp, killing children. They have given warning that they are bombing the media next.They've already done so. They bombed the tower block to the ground. Many media offices were based there including the Associated Press. They were pleading to let them go in and grab their stuff before bombing: They were unsuccessful. Al-Jazeera and Associated Press among others no longer have their offices or equipment in Palestine:
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 18:24:08 GMT
Here's a statement from the Associated Press' president and CEO, Gary Pruitt:
That last sentence should give everyone whichever side one is on, a great cause for concern
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 15, 2021 18:39:53 GMT
Here's a statement from the Associated Press' president and CEO, Gary Pruitt:
That last sentence should give everyone whichever side one is on, a great course for concern And it wasn't a random call. This was a strategic bomb dropping planned in advance for a strategic reason: cutting off Palestine a little more from the outside world and keeping control over the communication game. There's no possible way to deny what Netanyahu and his partners are carrying out here. The sad thing is that this government is ruling by instilling fear, feeding nationalism, provoking the "enemy" and then doing everything to keep the rest of the world as oblivious to the actual situation as possible.
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Post by myshelly on May 15, 2021 21:40:27 GMT
Now the Israelis have bombed a refugee camp, killing children. They have given warning that they are bombing the media next. Do you know how many Palestinians have died since Monday? 140 including 39 children. How many Israelis? 9. How many Israeli children? 0. Do you know how many Israelis have been injured in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict in 2020 according to the UN? 61 How many Palestinians? 2781 In 2019 the numbers were 133 / 15681 In 2018 the numbers were 130 / 31558 Total Deaths from 2008-2020 Palestinian: 5590 Israeli: 251 So, why am I anti-Israeli? Because you can clearly see who is perpetrating the violence. If Israel did not have the Iron Dome, those numbers would look VERY different. Also I have to say that off the top of my head I could add in many more Israeli deaths than what you are counting due to terrorism. My niece was killed while waiting for a bus home. She was stabbed multiple times. She was murdered. The numbers do not tell who alone is perpetrating the violence but they do tell who has a better defense ssytem. First of all, I’m sorry about your niece. But you think you can name more than 250 Israelis who have been killed by Palestinians “off the top of your head”? Ok, list them, I’ll wait. You think your record keeping “off the top of your head” is better than the UN’s? Here’s one of many sources for the UN’s numbers: www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2021/05/12/the-human-cost-of-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict-over-the-past-decade-infographic/?sh=dc1b7bc457b5As for the Iron Dome? Exactly. Israel has the Iron Dome. They have every single advantage. And yet they keep attacking. Keep escalating. Keep killing. They’ve destroyed the press. They bombed journalists. Ask yourself what kind of regime bombs all of the journalists?
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Post by iamkristinl16 on May 15, 2021 22:50:40 GMT
This is complicated and there is fault on both sides. But for those of you unilaterally blaming Israel, I have to disagree. Perhaps it would be good to go back for decades and see how many innocent Israelis have died due to terrorist Palestinians. Innocent people riding buses. Going about their daily schedule. Just trying to live. Israel has come out on top for the past decade or so, but before that, every Israeli knew he or she could die any day. Imagine living like that. They fought back and they won. I don't pretend to understand the whole situation with the taking over of the homes of the Palestinians, and perhaps Israel really is in the wrong with that. Maybe some of our friends here who do understand it better than I could come and explain. But after what the Israelis went through for years just trying to occupy (and massively improve) the land that was given back to them through an agreement brokered by the United Nations, I have to say my sympathies lie with them. And many seem to forget that the land was NOT owned by Palestine at the time of the brokered deal. It had been won and occupied by Britain. The whole thing was an effort to find a home for the Jews after the Holocaust and it was the most fair solution that could be determined. I do not believe that Israel plays any part at all in the End of Times. My study of the Bible suggests that thinking that they do is a complete misapplication of prophecy. So I am not defending Israel for that reason at all. I just think that history shows a pretty clear story of terrorism against Israel by the Palestinians and a complete lack of interest in any of the Arab states in taking in any of the displaced Palestinians. Which says a whole lot! I always recommend Richard North Patterson's book Exile to people who vehemently take one side or the other. It was the most eye-opening book on the situation I have ever read. He put so much research in it and interviewed so many people on both sides. After reading it, I knew in my own heart, that there is no "fix" for this. And never will be. By far the majority of people on both sides of the question want peace. They just want to live their lives. But the militants on BOTH sides refuse to let that happen. In their minds, there can be no peace until the other side in completely wiped off the map. You say there is fault on both sides, but re-read your post and take a closer look at how it reads past your first sentence. You and many others on this thread are only focusing on the actions of Hamas and not looking at how the Israelis are treating Palestinians now and in the last decades. The wording when talking about Israel indicates that you see them as the victim and they are just protecting themselves. But in fact they are also instigating the violence by making life for Palestinians very difficult in many ways. Also, just because the British had overtaken the area prior to giving it to Israel, doesn’t mean that the people who were living their before should be happy with that. How do you think that, along with being treated poorly now, is affecting how and why they are fighting back? I’m not an expert in this area, but did look up the more recent history and what I saw said that the area was to be ruled jointly by Jews and Palestinians. That doesn’t seem to be happening for quite some time. I’m not saying that Hamas or other violence on the part of the Palestinians is ok. But I can see where they are coming from in terms of being upset. I think that understanding and really listening to what they are saying, why they are upset, and looking at the ways that Israel is diminishing their lives daily is an important aspect of trying to create peace.
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 15, 2021 22:58:51 GMT
This conversation had me thinking of an interview that was done when Israel hosted the Eurovision a few years back. An Israeli teenager was making excellent points and delivering a concise analysis of the break happening in Israeli society right now. I just spent a solid 15 minutes looking for it online and found it again.
Stick with it. It's worth it.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on May 15, 2021 23:22:18 GMT
This conversation had me thinking of an interview that was done when Israel hosted the Eurovision a few years back. An Israeli teenager was making excellent points and delivering a concise analysis of the break happening in Israeli society right now. I just spent a solid 15 minutes looking for it online and found it again. Stick with it. It's worth it. Wow! That young man needs to be involved in the peacemaking process.
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Post by myshelly on May 16, 2021 4:10:28 GMT
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Post by myshelly on May 16, 2021 4:11:14 GMT
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 16, 2021 12:32:29 GMT
For those following the Associated Press and Al Jazeera story: Agence France-Presse are opening their Gaza offices to them. This doesn't make up for the loss of equipment they suffered and the difficulties they'll have getting such equipment delivered quickly in Gaza right now.
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Post by myshelly on May 16, 2021 12:57:15 GMT
Is this a taboo topic? I’d like to learn more about both sides. Hamas fired rockets on Israel. Israel responded. The world condemns Israel for responding but if Mexico shot rockets into the US you can be damned sure we would respond too, no matter their reason for doing so. The Palestinians don't just want their own state. They want the annihilation of the Jewish State and won't be satisfied with anything less. The way I see it, is if America were in a similar situation with Mexico or Canada no one would blame us for occupying land we won in war. We might be pressured into giving it back and maybe we would or maybe we wouldn't. Israel is held to a different standard. I have seen Israel accused of Apartheid. I grew up under apartheid in South Africa. It IS NOTHING ALIKE. Israeli Arabs (+-20% of the population) have full representation in the Israeli government, have full access to social services, education and count as full citizens. In fact Israel is one of very few Middle Eastern countries where Arab women can vote. Many of them self identify as Palestinians. South Africa is now calling for Israel to be investigated for crimes against humanity. www.msn.com/en-za/news/other/dirco-wants-israel-conduct-referred-to-icc-for-crimes-against-humanity/ar-BB1gLHpQSo I guess your country doesn’t agree with you that “it is nothing alike.”
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2021 7:21:24 GMT
My husband was able to talk with his sister last night. For now, she is okay. But she was telling DH about there being so many bombs all around. She said it is soooo loud. That the noise is constant and terrifying. They are just exhausted from it. They are in the south of Gaza in Abasan. This is the Khan Yunis area near the Egyptian border. She told my husband that this time seems to be worse than all the other incursions. People are feeling like the Israelis want to bomb them into the sea.
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Post by hookturnian on May 19, 2021 7:37:41 GMT
I have seen Israel accused of Apartheid. I grew up under apartheid in South Africa. It IS NOTHING ALIKE. Israeli Arabs (+-20% of the population) have full representation in the Israeli government, have full access to social services, education and count as full citizens. In fact Israel is one of very few Middle Eastern countries where Arab women can vote. Many of them self identify as Palestinians. Are you seriously arguing that Madiba, The Arch, Ronnie Kasrils and Ramaphosa do not recognise apartheid when they see it? If you think that lack of voting rights was all there was to apartheid, you are woefully uninformed. Learn some history. Maybe you'll see the parallels between the struggle and what's happening to Palestinians, between what's happening in Sheikh Jarrah and what happened in District Six. ewn.co.za/2021/05/17/cyril-ramaphosa-we-stand-with-the-palestinian-people
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Post by hookturnian on May 19, 2021 7:40:17 GMT
My husband was able to talk with his sister last night. For now, she is okay. But she was telling DH about there being so many bombs all around. She said it is soooo loud. That the noise is constant and terrifying. They are just exhausted from it. They are in the south of Gaza in Abasan. This is the Khan Yunis area near the Egyptian border. She told my husband that this time seems to be worse than all the other incursions. People are feeling like the Israelis want to bomb them into the sea. I'm glad your husband was able to speak to his sister. I will keep your family and everyone in Palestine in my prayers.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on May 19, 2021 11:35:42 GMT
My husband was able to talk with his sister last night. For now, she is okay. But she was telling DH about there being so many bombs all around. She said it is soooo loud. That the noise is constant and terrifying. They are just exhausted from it. They are in the south of Gaza in Abasan. This is the Khan Yunis area near the Egyptian border. She told my husband that this time seems to be worse than all the other incursions. People are feeling like the Israelis want to bomb them into the sea. It sure seems that way. The other day an Israeli ambassador was on tv and was asked about a cease fire. He said thru “aren’t ready yet” in a way that made it seem that they had certain things they wanted to bomb first, then they might decide it would look better for them to agree to the cease fire. @scrapnhappy I think you have lost your objectivity in this situation. Have you been informed about how Israel is treating Palestinians? How they can’t leave Palestine, even when they are being bombed? They have very limited water and electricity? Limited opportunities in general? Would you fight for your life if you were in that situation? Nothing will change if people in Israel and elsewhere can’t take a hard look at Israel’s role in this, as well as the Palestinians role.
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 19, 2021 14:16:43 GMT
The other day an Israeli ambassador was on tv and was asked about a cease fire. He said thru “aren’t ready yet” in a way that made it seem that they had certain things they wanted to bomb first, then they might decide it would look better for them to agree to the cease fire. I was reading an interview with Elie Barnavi, former ambassador of Israel in France, who was explaining that the diplomatic world was aware last week already of the Israeli government not being interested in a cease-fire due to not having met all their military objectives yet. That's really chilling. They created an opportunity to justify carrying out a planned military strategy. It surely clarifies the Al-Aqsa mosque attack. That was just a planned provocation to give themselves international immunity for what was to come. The US blocking the UN's vote to make a statement condeming Israel's military response is unacceptable, too. That's three times they've blocked the vote in a week. It's a joke to hear US ambassador to the UN say that the US are working tirelessly to come to a resolution through diplomatic channels while the country has rejected to allow for a strong, internationally cooperative and cohesive condemnation in three consecutive emergency meetings while all the others agree.
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 19, 2021 14:18:48 GMT
Sending much love to your husband's family, allipeas. What a frightful situation to be in (again).
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 19, 2021 16:52:05 GMT
It looks like there may be some (limited) pressure coming from within the US Democratic Party now.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2021 18:02:48 GMT
Sending much love to your husband's family, allipeas . What a frightful situation to be in (again). I am in a rough place right now. Normally, I would discuss this subject and try and engage. I mean we have a live account of what is really happening. I just can't. I am mentally exhausted from the death of my uncle, but I am exhausted of the constant battle for Palestinians to be heard. As graphic and horrible as it is...people need to see the REAL pictures of the cost of Israel's incursions and bombing campaigns. The whole human shield lines are bullshit! They are bombing apartment buildings where women and children are...sleeping in the middle of the night! No warning! I don't even know what to say or do anymore. The whole family is full of anxiety...for all of their family there. It's bad...really bad.
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Post by gar on May 19, 2021 18:07:09 GMT
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 19, 2021 18:28:28 GMT
allipeas *hugs* I wish we could do more to protect fellow civilians who are de facto prisoners of this conflict.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on May 19, 2021 19:19:29 GMT
Sending much love to your husband's family, allipeas . What a frightful situation to be in (again). I am in a rough place right now. Normally, I would discuss this subject and try and engage. I mean we have a live account of what is really happening. I just can't. I am mentally exhausted from the death of my uncle, but I am exhausted of the constant battle for Palestinians to be heard. As graphic and horrible as it is...people need to see the REAL pictures of the cost of Israel's incursions and bombing campaigns. The whole human shield lines are bullshit! They are bombing apartment buildings where women and children are...sleeping in the middle of the night! No warning! I don't even know what to say or do anymore. The whole family is full of anxiety...for all of their family there. It's bad...really bad. I’m so sorry about your uncle as well as the worries for your family. It must be so difficult for all in the area who are living with the chaos and destruction. Today The Daily did another podcast episode where they talked to a young woman in Gaza. It was a good interview, but I wish they would have her back to tell more of her/their stories. There is apparently so much that we don’t know. sleepingbooty I have been hearing for days that Democrats in congress are pressuring Biden to do more but I’m not sure that has done much yet.
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Post by hookturnian on May 20, 2021 1:44:53 GMT
Sending much love to your husband's family, allipeas . What a frightful situation to be in (again). I am in a rough place right now. Normally, I would discuss this subject and try and engage. I mean we have a live account of what is really happening. I just can't. I am mentally exhausted from the death of my uncle, but I am exhausted of the constant battle for Palestinians to be heard. As graphic and horrible as it is...people need to see the REAL pictures of the cost of Israel's incursions and bombing campaigns. The whole human shield lines are bullshit! They are bombing apartment buildings where women and children are...sleeping in the middle of the night! No warning! I don't even know what to say or do anymore. The whole family is full of anxiety...for all of their family there. It's bad...really bad. (((Hugs))) I don't know what to say💔 The "human shield" thing irritates me no end. Gaza City has a population density of about 13000/km² or 34000 per square mile. That's slightly more dense than The Bronx, and slightly less dense than Brooklyn. If The Bronx or Brooklyn were defending themselves from attack would people say that they were using women and children as human shields, when the women and children were simply living there?
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2021 14:01:44 GMT
The Arab strike: General Strike Highlights Israel's Dependency on Palestinian Workers The Israel Builders Association said the strike over the situation in Gaza, Jerusalem and in mixed cities across Israel paralyzed building sites, causing estimated losses of nearly $40 million "According to the organization, some 5,000 cleaning workers (6.5 percent) of all the Arab cleaning workers didn’t come to work Tuesday. And while in Modi’in’s case the calls to fire the strikers were ignored, in other cases workers were dismissed, after being warned they’d be fired if they didn’t show up. According to the Higher Arab Monitoring Committee, the level of response to the call to strike was “unprecedented.” Mudar Younis, chairman of the Committee of Arab Local Council Heads, said he believes more than half the Arab public participated in the strike. “Everything was closed, people held a quiet protest to remind the Israeli public that we are a substantial part, that you can’t manage without Arab citizens,” he said. " www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-general-strike-highlights-israel-s-dependency-on-palestinian-workers-1.9824446
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2021 14:16:29 GMT
Dear President Biden, I am writing to you about Gaza, a place that I have studied and written about for the last 35 years, a place that I consider another home, filled with the kindest and most generous people you will ever meet—have you ever been there? But I am writing not only as a scholar of the region but as a Jew and one whose parents survived Auschwitz.I have a question for you, Mr. President: When is the death of a child acceptable? Or perhaps I should ask the question this way: When does the death of a Palestinian child become unacceptable? You have experienced the unspeakable loss of your own children so you are better placed than most to answer my questions. Last week after 87 Palestinians in Gaza were killed and over 500 wounded you stated that you had not seen a “significant overreaction” on Israel’s part to Hamas’s rocket attacks. Among the dead at that time were 18 children. I did not know any of them but I know people who do. Would you please help me explain to my friends why the death of these 18 children does not constitute an overreaction? This brings up another question I have for you, Mr. President: How many children must die in Gaza before you would consider Israel’s response excessive particularly since you have made human rights the center of your foreign policy? I need to know so that I can explain it to my friends. As I write this, over 60 Palestinian children have been killed by the government of Israel. Is that enough to qualify? I know people inside our government who work on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I need to tell you something I heard from one of them about the death of Gaza’s children. This individual implied that some of the dead were likely the children of Hamas officials so their deaths don’t really matter, that is, their deaths are acceptable. Is this the answer to my first question? Should this be the way I explain it to my friends? Please help me out here. It is tragic that after more than three decades of research and writing, I still find it necessary to argue for the humanity of Palestinians, even to you. One more thing before I end this letter if you’ll indulge me. It is about my mom. When she was imprisoned in the Lodz ghetto during the Holocaust, she risked her life hiding children who were chosen for deportation to Auschwitz and other extermination camps. The Nazis eventually found the children and sent them to their deaths. But my mom tried to save them even though she knew she was powerless to do so. And I can assure you, knowing her and learning from her as I did throughout my life, she would have done the same for any child under threat, Jewish or Christian or Muslim. She would have been horrified by the senseless killing of children in this terrible conflict, both Palestinian and Israeli, and she would have railed at the injustice of it all. And this is my last question for you: Why haven’t you done the same? Sincerely, Dr. Sara Roy www.counterpunch.org/2021/05/21/a-letter-to-biden-on-gaza/Israel has the ability to hit w/"surgical precision". Why are they not using it now rather than taking down entire multi-story buildings? www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/gaza-news/surgical-precision-the-story-behind-israels-targeted-killings-639184www.businessinsider.com/videos-show-israeli-airstrikes-leveling-gaza-apartment-buildings-2021-5
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2021 15:11:15 GMT
I guess they believe that these people are Hamas terrorist I suppose /s Without warning, an Israeli air strike destroyed the four-storey building in the Gaza Strip where Dr Ayman Abu al-Ouf lived early on Sunday. The doctor, who was head of internal medicine at the Palestinian territory's main hospital, was killed along with 12 members of his extended family. They included his mother and father, his wife Reem, and their 17-year-old son Tawfik and 12-year-old-daughter Tala.
Also among the 42 Palestinians killed on the same day as Dr Abu al-Ouf and his family were Dr Mouin al-Aloul, Gaza's top neurologist, and Rajaa Abu al-Ouf, a psychologist. Six hospitals and 11 primary healthcare centres have also been damaged, along with Gaza's only Covid-19 testing laboratory. Another hospital is not functioning because of a fuel shortage.
LINK
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Post by gar on May 25, 2021 15:20:27 GMT
Because they said they believe that Hamas are hiding their war bunkers under civilian homes - apparently.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2021 16:08:08 GMT
They also bombed 13 factories in the industrial sector. The unemployment is already SKY HIGH in Gaza, and this will only add to that. IF and when people can rebuild...how are they going to go back to work. The medical system there is a shambles as well.
The day AFTER the cease fire, IDF soldiers were escorting a group of settlers through the Al Aqsa Mosque. I SWEAR it's like they are just trying to start it back up.
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