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Post by epeanymous on Aug 15, 2021 0:42:25 GMT
No one was going to " win" in Afghanistan. It's been a trouble country for far longer than the last 20 years. If it wasn't the Taliban it would be some other tribal force. The history of Afghanistan and it's troubles go back at least 150 years and that is only covering the" modern" era. My heart breaks for the families that have sons and fathers that have sacrificed their lives and for the ones that returned, in many cases, never to be the same people again. I only know one veteran who served, he was in the Royal Marines and the effect on his life since he left the RM and continued in civvy street has been catastrophic. I'm certain that he is probably saying to himself now " what was it all for?" I have a student who has PTSD from their experience and I think of that student and how this effort affected their whole life (my dad has what I suspect is undiagnosed PTSD from his tours of duty in Korea, and, whether or not it is PTSD, it has affected him and everyone around him). It's all so frustrating, and it's also absolutely heartbreaking to think of all of the civilians there who lost their lives, and the ones now who are in danger. It doesn't mean that pulling out is not the right thing, but it does make me so frustrated at the waste.
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lindas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,305
Jun 26, 2014 5:46:37 GMT
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Post by lindas on Aug 15, 2021 0:47:40 GMT
Reporter from Sky News on MSNBC just said that the Taliban is within 10 miles of Kabul. It’s looking like Saigon all over again.
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Post by epeanymous on Aug 15, 2021 1:25:05 GMT
Reporter from Sky News on MSNBC just said that the Taliban is within 10 miles of Kabul. It’s looking like Saigon all over again. It has that feeling, soup to nuts. Bad decision to go in, bad decision to stay in, pointlessness to the whole enterprise.
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Post by lesserknownpea on Aug 15, 2021 1:53:34 GMT
No one was going to " win" in Afghanistan. It's been a trouble country for far longer than the last 20 years. If it wasn't the Taliban it would be some other tribal force. The history of Afghanistan and it's troubles go back at least 150 years and that is only covering the" modern" era. My heart breaks for the families that have sons and fathers that have sacrificed their lives and for the ones that returned, in many cases, never to be the same people again. I only know one veteran who served, he was in the Royal Marines and the effect on his life since he left the RM and continued in civvy street has been catastrophic. I'm certain that he is probably saying to himself now " what was it all for?" My thoughts exactly
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Post by onelasttime on Aug 15, 2021 3:51:09 GMT
The first three tweets from this guy Jack were from the end of 2020. The fourth is recent.
This guy has a real bad case of short term memory….
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Post by papersilly on Aug 15, 2021 4:33:21 GMT
There were wars being fought there before we entered and they will continue long after we leave. It's time to pull the civilians out, provide safety to those who helped us, and help the Afghan people in other humanitarian ways.
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,097
Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
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Post by used2scrap on Aug 15, 2021 4:45:08 GMT
No one was going to " win" in Afghanistan. It's been a trouble country for far longer than the last 20 years. If it wasn't the Taliban it would be some other tribal force. The history of Afghanistan and it's troubles go back at least 150 years and that is only covering the" modern" era. My heart breaks for the families that have sons and fathers that have sacrificed their lives and for the ones that returned, in many cases, never to be the same people again. I only know one veteran who served, he was in the Royal Marines and the effect on his life since he left the RM and continued in civvy street has been catastrophic. I'm certain that he is probably saying to himself now " what was it all for?" Please do acknowledge the women, the mothers, the sisters, and daughters who have also sacrificed their lives and the ones that have returned.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 23, 2024 16:22:25 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 8:25:08 GMT
No one was going to " win" in Afghanistan. It's been a trouble country for far longer than the last 20 years. If it wasn't the Taliban it would be some other tribal force. The history of Afghanistan and it's troubles go back at least 150 years and that is only covering the" modern" era. My heart breaks for the families that have sons and fathers that have sacrificed their lives and for the ones that returned, in many cases, never to be the same people again. I only know one veteran who served, he was in the Royal Marines and the effect on his life since he left the RM and continued in civvy street has been catastrophic. I'm certain that he is probably saying to himself now " what was it all for?" Please do acknowledge the women, the mothers, the sisters, and daughters who have also sacrificed their lives and the ones that have returned. Of course. I apologise it wasn't intentional I can assure you. Thanks for the hand slap though
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Post by mollycoddle on Aug 15, 2021 9:58:35 GMT
Reporter from Sky News on MSNBC just said that the Taliban is within 10 miles of Kabul. It’s looking like Saigon all over again. Yes. This was never going to end well.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 23, 2024 16:22:25 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 10:42:18 GMT
So...I threw myself on my sword and asked him his thoughts on Afghanistan.
He said that the Taliban in Afghanistan actually is a benefit to the US because they are the ONLY ones that can stop the Russians from the North and deal a blow to Iran. It's mostly because the terrain of Afghanistan and those people use it to their advantage in every way.
He said it is much in the way how Saddam ruled Iraq. He was a dictator, yes, but once he was gone, it descended into chaos. He said all that Americans know is democracy and freedom of speech. People in these countries have never lived that way. They know what they were born into and trying to change that is nearly impossible. Right or wrong...it's what they know.
His feels like each country needs to get their shit together with Covid before meddling in other countries.
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Post by mollycoddle on Aug 15, 2021 13:37:53 GMT
This is a good thread about the hard truths of our presence in Afghanistan.
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Post by hookturnian on Aug 15, 2021 14:30:19 GMT
There are reports that the Taliban has entered Kabul, and that the Afghan President has fled to Tajikistan.
Australia has a large Afghan population, many of whom fled the Taliban. One of the suburbs near me is home to many of them. I'm heartbroken for them. During the week there were demonstrations urging our govt to do more, open up more humanitarian visas places, process humanitarian visas quicker, and evacuate Afghans who worked with the Australian forces as their lives were in danger. A number of vets burned their medals in protest at the slow reaction from our govt.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Aug 15, 2021 14:58:58 GMT
CNN is also reporting the Taliban has entered Kabul. The President has gone... There is sporadic gun fire.there was not violence to enter the city of 6,000,000 people
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 23, 2024 16:22:25 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 15:31:38 GMT
They need to get the translators out IMMEDIATELY...not later...wait for paperwork....NOW!!!!!
Put them and their families on planes and get them out.
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 16:22:25 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 15:37:02 GMT
This is a good thread about the hard truths of our presence in Afghanistan. This is pretty much in line with what DH said. The tribal mentality and the terrain make the Taliban difficult to take down. I am heart-sick as to what will happen to the women and children and the horrors that await them. Sick.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 23, 2024 16:22:25 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 15:45:00 GMT
We are watching Arabic news and it shows them rolling into Kabul now. Showing military planes living the airport. Not sure if they have captured the airport yet.
This is horrifying to watch!
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Post by **GypsyGirl** on Aug 15, 2021 15:45:11 GMT
He said it is much in the way how Saddam ruled Iraq. He was a dictator, yes, but once he was gone, it descended into chaos. He said all that Americans know is democracy and freedom of speech. People in these countries have never lived that way. They know what they were born into and trying to change that is nearly impossible. Right or wrong...it's what they know. Your DH is correct. Years of living in some of these countries taught us that first hand. As much as we value democracy, not every society is suitable for it. Did we learn nothing from the colonization of Africa and other locations?
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 16:22:25 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 15:47:39 GMT
They are reporting that the Taliban are now inside the Presidential palace. Seems they made some kind of agreement to let him go.
But that is pretty much it. They now control Afghanistan.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 23, 2024 16:22:25 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 16:00:30 GMT
They are reporting that military are evacuating the US Embassy right now. We are actually watching coverage of the military helicopters flying out. DH thinks there is probably some kind of agreement with the US in that they are giving them time to get out.
The Taliban have given an order for people to stay in their homes until they maintain order.
Having said all that, there is also reports of some kind of fire at the airport.
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 16:22:25 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 16:17:31 GMT
Reports are that they (Taliban) are allowing people to leave from the airport. Whoever wants to leave...leave...but leave now.
News is reporting that the president will officially hand over power in the next few hours.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Aug 15, 2021 17:10:24 GMT
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Aug 15, 2021 17:15:28 GMT
MAGA and Qanon never cease to amaze!! She forgets how many golf trips former made... That he wanted to host the Taliban at the very same Camp David Biden is working at.. Rather official facility!!
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Aug 15, 2021 17:24:58 GMT
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Aug 15, 2021 17:40:01 GMT
MSNBC: Flag is down at the Embassy. US Embassy: Kabul airport is taking fire.
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Post by aj2hall on Aug 15, 2021 18:07:20 GMT
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Post by onelasttime on Aug 15, 2021 20:33:02 GMT
Now Biden is getting blamed for the mess that is Afghanistan. But the question is, would it had been any different if the US/Coalition forces had stayed another 5 or 10 or 20 years? My guess is no.
Could it been done better? Maybe if the US would have continued to provide air support to the Afghanistan Army. But for how long? Forever?
Max Boot is one of those blaming Biden and his solution was this…
“ One more year, or five more years, of U.S. military presence would not have made a difference if the Afghan military cannot or will not hold its own country,” Biden insisted. That’s only true if it was inevitable that the U.S. military would pull out. But U.S. forces are still present in far larger numbers in countries such as Germany, Japan and South Korea after more than 70 years. There was nothing foreordained about the withdrawal of 2,500 U.S. advisers in Afghanistan. Indeed, the United States is maintaining a similar-size mission in Iraq with almost no controversy.“
My guess getting out of Iraq is next on the to do list. As it should be. The bases in Germany, Japan, & South Korea are there more for US strategic reasons then anything else and certainly not to protect the host country from any terrorist group.
Anyway you look at this it’s a mess. And I feel for the people caught in this mess.
From the Washington Post….
“Afghanistan’s military collapse: Illicit deals and mass desertions”
By Susannah George Today at 9:15 a.m. EDT
“KABUL — The spectacular collapse of Afghanistan’s military that allowed Taliban fighters to reach the gates of Kabul on Sunday despite twenty years of training and billions of dollars in American aid began with a series of deals brokered in rural villages between the militant group and some of the Afghan government’s lowest-ranking officials.
The deals, initially offered early last year, were often described by Afghan officials as cease-fires, but Taliban leaders were in fact offering money in exchange for government forces to hand over their weapons, according to an Afghan officer and a U.S. official.
Over the next year and a half, the meetings advanced to the district level and then rapidly on to provincial capitals, culminating in a breathtaking series of negotiated surrenders by government forces, according to interviews with more than a dozen Afghan officers, police, special operations troops and other soldiers.
During the past week, more than a dozen provincial capitals have fallen to Taliban forces with little or no resistance. Early Sunday morning, the government-held city of Jalalabad surrendered to the militants without a shot fired, and security forces in the districts ringing Kabul simply melted away. Within hours, Taliban forces reached the Afghan capital’s four main entrances unopposed.
An Interior Ministry official said Taliban insurgents entered Kabul on Aug. 15, 2021, as the United States evacuated diplomats by helicopter. (Reuters) The pace of the military collapse has stunned many American officials and other foreign observers, forcing the U.S. government to dramatically accelerate efforts to remove personnel from its embassy in Kabul.
The Taliban capitalized on the uncertainty caused by the February 2020 agreement reached in Doha, Qatar, between the militant group and the United States calling for a full American withdrawal from Afghanistan. Some Afghan forces realized they would soon no longer be able to count on American air power and other crucial battlefield support and grew receptive to the Taliban’s approaches.
“Some just wanted the money,” an Afghan special forces officer said of those who first agreed to meet with the Taliban. But others saw the U.S. commitment to a full withdrawal as an “assurance” that the militants would return to power in Afghanistan and wanted to secure their place on the winning side, he said. The officer spoke on the condition of anonymity because he, like others in this report, were not authorized to disclose information to the press.
The Doha agreement, designed to bring an end to the war in Afghanistan, instead left many Afghan forces demoralized, bringing into stark relief the corrupt impulses of many Afghan officials and their tenuous loyalty to the country’s central government. Some police officers complained that they had not been paid in six months or more.
“They saw that document as the end,” the officer said, referring to the majority of Afghans aligned with the government. “The day the deal was signed we saw the change. Everyone was just looking out for himself. It was like [the United States] left us to fail.”
The negotiated surrenders to the Taliban slowly gained pace in the months following the Doha deal, according to a U.S. official and an Afghan officer. Then, after President Biden announced in April that U.S. forces would withdraw from Afghanistan this summer without conditions, the capitulations began to snowball.
As the militants expanded their control, government-held districts increasingly fell without a fight. Kunduz, the first key city overrun by the militants, was captured a week ago. Days of negotiations mediated by tribal elders resulted in a surrender deal that handed over the last government- controlled base to the Taliban.
Soon after, negotiations in the western province of Herat yielded the resignation of the governor, top Interior Ministry and intelligence officials and hundreds of troops. The deal was concluded in a single night.
“I was so ashamed,” said a Kabul-based Interior Ministry officer, referring to the surrender of senior ministry official Abdul Rahman Rahman in Herat. “I’m just a small person, I’m not that big. If he does that, what should I do?”
Over the past month, the southern province of Helmand also witnessed a mass surrender. And as Taliban fighters closed in on the southeastern province of Ghazni, its governor fled under Taliban protection only to be arrested by the Afghan government on his way back to Kabul.
Taliban enters Kabul, leaving Afghan government on brink of collapse The Afghan military’s fight against the Taliban has involved several capable and motivated elite units. But they were often dispatched to provide backup for less-well-trained army and police units that have repeatedly folded under Taliban pressure.
An Afghan special forces officer stationed in Kandahar who had been assigned to protect a critical border crossing recalled being ordered by a commander to surrender. “We want to fight! If we surrender, the Taliban will kill us,” the special forces officer said.
“Don’t fire a single shot,” the commander told them as the Taliban swarmed the area, the officer later recounted. The border police surrendered immediately, leaving the special forces unit on its own. A second officer confirmed his colleague’s recollection of the events.
Unwilling to surrender or fight outmatched, the members of the unit put down their weapons, changed into civilian clothing and fled their post.
“I feel ashamed of what I’ve done,” said the first officer. But, he said, if he hadn’t fled, “I would have been sold to the Taliban by my own government.”
When an Afghan police officer was asked about his force’s apparent lack of motivation, he explained that they haven’t been getting their salaries. Several Afghan police officers on the front lines in Kandahar before the city fell said they hadn’t been paid in six to nine months. Taliban payoffs have become ever more enticing.
“Without the United States, there was no fear of being caught for corruption. It brought out the traitors from within our military,” said one Afghan police officer.
Several officers with the Kandahar police force said corruption was more to blame for the collapse than incompetence. “Honestly, I don’t think it can be fixed. I think they need something completely new,” said Ahmadullah Kandahari, an officer in Kandahar’s police force.
In the days leading up to Kandahar’s capture this month, the toll on the police had become visible. Bacha, a 34-year-old police commander, had been steadily retreating for more than three months. He had grown hunched and his attire more ragged. In an interview, he said the repeated retreats had bruised his pride — but it was going without pay that made him feel desperate.
“Last time I saw you, the Taliban was offering $150 for anyone from the government to surrender and join them,” he told a reporter as the interview drew to a close. “Do you know, what is the price now?”
He didn’t laugh, and several of his men leaned forward, eager to hear the answer.”
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Post by onelasttime on Aug 15, 2021 20:44:41 GMT
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Post by gar on Aug 15, 2021 20:51:30 GMT
allipeas, thanks for your/your DH's insight.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Aug 15, 2021 21:24:08 GMT
Only the best.....
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 23, 2024 16:22:25 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 21:31:55 GMT
Imagine what we could have done w/that $2TRILLION over the last 20 years other than enriching arms manufacturers. Yes, some of it went to other areas, but a lot of it went to see whose guns are bigger - cuz too many men still think that's the best way to solve the world's problems.
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