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Post by Crack-a-lackin on Aug 14, 2021 18:49:48 GMT
He needs to set this particular employee aside and think of the business. If he were to hire someone new would he require the vaccine as a condition of employment? If that’s what he wants for his business and employees then he should implement it and let the rest fall into place. I know this is all new and employers are trying to figure it out, but right now he’s letting one specific employee dictate how he operates his business.
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Post by lisae on Aug 14, 2021 18:49:59 GMT
I don't think you can collect unemployment if you have been fired. Maybe this doesn't apply to all states but in Michigan it used to be if you were fired it was your decision so no unemployment. When you are fired is when you do qualify for unemployment. If she quits, she would not. It sounds like she isn't quitting. If the boss makes vaccinations a requirement to work there and she refuses, he will have grounds to fire her. Then she can collect unemployment as I understand the process.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Aug 14, 2021 18:52:42 GMT
Does she want to get fired? I assume she could collect unemployment if she’s worked long enough and her attitude suggests she’s not all that loyal. (Not getting vaccinated is one thing but she should be helping to come up with alternatives in that situation not just basically daring them to fire her) I don't think you can collect unemployment if you have been fired. Maybe this doesn't apply to all states but in Michigan it used to be if you were fired it was your decision so no unemployment. Here you cannot collect if you quit. If you’re fired, you can collect—the employer has the opportunity to deny it and if the employees have done something like steal, fraud, espionage then the claim is denied. If you quit, they do t allow that as reason until they can prove it was a hostile work environment.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Aug 14, 2021 19:22:47 GMT
What a charming shut down…I can see why your boss is pissed off. I work retail….and we have five hold outs at last count. It’s crazy to me. We process 400 transactions daily. That’s 400 people we are exposed to every day, and that’s just the people who buy something. The actual customer count is higher. Baffling. Yes, boss was pissed at the response for sure…especially as it comes a few days after another employee leaving to head back to college, who had a bad habit of telling everyone what she was going to do vs what boss/manager wanted (she had always been used getting her way and never being told “no” until she worked for boss) she wanted someone to pick up her paycheck instead of having it mailed (she was out of town) to which bosses said they’d mail it yo her and she went apeshit and was telling boss what boss was going yo do and that someone was coming in at noon to get it! (He told her nope it wasn’t happening) boss doesn’t like to be told how his business is going to operate! But that’s a whole other thread!! Lol The business is part retail, and employees come in contact with others daily, (I’m the only non-retail employee there) and bosses entire premise is just to keep everyone healthy.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Aug 14, 2021 19:26:54 GMT
If they implement a "must be vaccinated"... and she makes the choice not to and quits... then boss n company is not responsible... she quit.. thats all on her... Im not a boss or leader of any sort in my job but im not great with ultimatums.... i think play with fire.... get burned.. better her now, than she carries it is and 1 of you carries it home to a child or grandchild or a vulnerable older person.... Shes making the choice... This is what I’ve advised so far. A company Covid policy, put the onus on employees refusing vaccine to get and provide negative Covid tests. I’m hashing out writing the rough draft now, I have a meeting with bosses Monday at 9!
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johnnysmom
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,686
Jun 25, 2014 21:16:33 GMT
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Post by johnnysmom on Aug 14, 2021 19:33:17 GMT
If they implement a "must be vaccinated"... and she makes the choice not to and quits... then boss n company is not responsible... she quit.. thats all on her... Im not a boss or leader of any sort in my job but im not great with ultimatums.... i think play with fire.... get burned.. better her now, than she carries it is and 1 of you carries it home to a child or grandchild or a vulnerable older person.... Shes making the choice... This is what I’ve advised so far. A company Covid policy, put the onus on employees refusing vaccine to get and provide negative Covid tests. I’m hashing out writing the rough draft now, I have a meeting with bosses Monday at 9! Make sure it allows for medical/religious exemptions. Likely won’t apply to her but a CYA for the future.
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 14, 2021 20:59:09 GMT
Give a date for vaccination or N95 and testing mandate. So far the courts have upheld the rights if organizations to require these.
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Post by SockMonkey on Aug 14, 2021 21:05:20 GMT
This is what I’ve advised so far. A company Covid policy, put the onus on employees refusing vaccine to get and provide negative Covid tests. I’m hashing out writing the rough draft now, I have a meeting with bosses Monday at 9! Make sure it allows for medical/religious exemptions. Likely won’t apply to her but a CYA for the future. Medical and religious exemptions are fine, but if it places an undue burden or creates direct threat on the employer to reasonably accommodate the employee, they may not have standing.
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tracylynn
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,903
Jun 26, 2014 22:49:09 GMT
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Post by tracylynn on Aug 14, 2021 21:07:29 GMT
I don't think you can collect unemployment if you have been fired. Maybe this doesn't apply to all states but in Michigan it used to be if you were fired it was your decision so no unemployment. When you are fired is when you do qualify for unemployment. If she quits, she would not. It sounds like she isn't quitting. If the boss makes vaccinations a requirement to work there and she refuses, he will have grounds to fire her. Then she can collect unemployment as I understand the process. That's not true. Fired and laid off are 2 different things. If you are fired, no benefits. If you are laid off, you qualify for benefits. Quitting = no benefits either. (At least in my State.)
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Post by librarylady on Aug 14, 2021 21:14:55 GMT
I personally would not want to be in the same work area as this person.
I hope your employer lets her go and says right back to her "your choice." I have run out of sympathy for the ones who are keeping this virus going.....and killing people for "their choice."
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 14, 2021 21:19:39 GMT
This is what I’ve advised so far. A company Covid policy, put the onus on employees refusing vaccine to get and provide negative Covid tests. I’m hashing out writing the rough draft now, I have a meeting with bosses Monday at 9! Make sure it allows for medical/religious exemptions. Likely won’t apply to her but a CYA for the future. wouldn't a mask/testing mandate cover that?
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Post by lisae on Aug 14, 2021 21:38:50 GMT
When you are fired is when you do qualify for unemployment. If she quits, she would not. It sounds like she isn't quitting. If the boss makes vaccinations a requirement to work there and she refuses, he will have grounds to fire her. Then she can collect unemployment as I understand the process. That's not true. Fired and laid off are 2 different things. If you are fired, no benefits. If you are laid off, you qualify for benefits. Quitting = no benefits either. (At least in my State.) Yes, I looked it up after I wrote it and if you are fired for cause, you don't qualify for benefits. I expect though that firing people for not getting vaccinated is going to result in some lawsuits. Whether they will have merit, I don't know. Personally I hope all employers mandate this and we get people vaccinated and get over all this. However, I can see people arguing that you are infringing on their rights and they are at least entitled to unemployment if they refuse and are fired, particularly since this was not a condition of employment when they took the job to begin with.
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Post by melodyesch on Aug 14, 2021 22:02:51 GMT
Sounds like she just wants to be fired because she wants unemployment. Why else would you start such a conversation before your employers came up with a policy. I would certainly require weekly COVID tests on her dime plus having to wear an N95 everyday. They also need to make sure she understands that failure to follow policy will result in her being fired for cause, so she would get NO benefits.
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Post by CardBoxer on Aug 14, 2021 22:22:36 GMT
I’m so thankful my entire office got the vaccine. We didn’t have any holdouts. I know my friend’s employer has two employees who will not get the vaccine. He is not choosing to fire them over it at this time. But he is requiring that they wear a mask at all times and get a weekly Covid test, on Sundays before being allowed to work the week, on their dime. Love the idea of requiring a negative Covid test. Yes, but with the delta variant, someone could be negative today and positive a few days later. Will she be tested daily? And won’t that be too late? Breakthroughs are becoming more common and some studies are showing vaccine effectiveness against the delta variant may be as low as 50 or 60 percent - though with few hospitalizations and fewer deaths. Masks are so often worn poorly, or are one layer of cloth and many are leaky since faces aren’t flat. She’ll need to remove it to eat. It seems that so far courts are siding with employers about requiring vaccinations. Management should write a policy, ideally run it by an employment attorney or at least go on line to see examples, and if she refuses, say goodbye. One 20 year old shouldn’t have such power. Everyone is expendable.
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Post by dewryce on Aug 14, 2021 22:23:48 GMT
I know you didn’t ask, but since you were discussing the need to wear masks I wanted to make sure everyone realizes that even if you’re fully vaccinated you still need to wear a mask because vaccines do not stop you from spreading the virus if you are positive, at least with this variant (which is about 94% of the cases right now.) I can’t remember how the CDC worded it.
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Post by cade387 on Aug 14, 2021 22:24:55 GMT
I also saw that many companies are looking at options with their insurance providers to charge a surcharge on health care premiums for those who refuse to get vaccinated (similar to what they do for smokers).
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johnnysmom
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,686
Jun 25, 2014 21:16:33 GMT
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Post by johnnysmom on Aug 14, 2021 22:34:28 GMT
Make sure it allows for medical/religious exemptions. Likely won’t apply to her but a CYA for the future. wouldn't a mask/testing mandate cover that? Probably. The reason I mentioned it bc I swear I read a news article (likely would’ve been an Ohio news site) that said you can fire someone for refusing vaccines but you have to allow for medical/religious exemptions. It didn’t mention the mask/testing option. Of course I can’t find the article so I’m going from memory but if I were writing a policy I would want to include that verbiage somewhere just to be safe.
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Post by disneypal on Aug 14, 2021 23:28:26 GMT
And the reasoning she’s given is it’s her choice A few employees are uncomfortable about working with/around her now. What are your thoughts on this? What do you think our boss’s options are? My thoughts are…she is right, it is her choice…if the entire rest of the office is vaccinated, why be concerned about working around one employee? They can wear a mask if they are concerned. The boss could require vaccinations to work there, but it may be difficult since when she was hired, it wasn’t a requirement. The boss could also require non-vaccinated employees to wear a mask. I believe everyone should get vaccinated and I wish everyone would but…it is their personal choice
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Post by jlynnbarth on Aug 15, 2021 0:11:54 GMT
The Governor of WA sent out an email to all state employees that they are mandating vaccinations for all State employees. If they chose not to get it, and are fired, they will not be eligible for unemployment. Many employees will be getting fired as of Oct 14, as they are refusing. (Or so they say right now).
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 23, 2024 15:44:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 0:14:37 GMT
Hmmm, I read her statement as a notice of leaving. In other words, if she’s required to wear a mask, “I’m not coming to work.” Ask her, “Are you resigning as of the date of your email or giving us two weeks’ notice?” Puts the onus back on her.
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Post by peasapie on Aug 15, 2021 0:18:40 GMT
Your boss should consult an employment attorney rather than relying on anyone’s opinion. It’s a tricky situation now with covid.
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Post by coaliesquirrel on Aug 15, 2021 0:31:06 GMT
And the reasoning she’s given is it’s her choice A few employees are uncomfortable about working with/around her now. What are your thoughts on this? What do you think our boss’s options are? My thoughts are…she is right, it is her choice…if the entire rest of the office is vaccinated, why be concerned about working around one employee? They can wear a mask if they are concerned. The boss could require vaccinations to work there, but it may be difficult since when she was hired, it wasn’t a requirement. The boss could also require non-vaccinated employees to wear a mask. I believe everyone should get vaccinated and I wish everyone would but…it is their personal choice Why be concerned? Because of breakthrough infections, those vaccinated coworkers could infect their young children or compromised family members, not to mention customers, since it's a retail location. Masks are helpful but not foolproof, and the offending employee would likely be removing her mask multiple times daily to eat and drink. A vaccination requirement implemented post-hiring presents exactly no additional difficulty over a pre-hiring requirement, absent possibly some odd context (union contracts, ability of an employee to show that the vaccination requirement is a front for illegal discriminatory action, etc.). The vast majority of people are probably still working at the same jobs they did pre-COVID, and many of those employers are requiring vaccinations with no difference between new and existing employees. The boss can absolutely require non-vaccinated employees to wear a mask, but as we know, masking really isn't a substitute for vaccination - it's meant to be complimentary. While vaccination is (at least in the US, for now) a matter of personal choice, all personal choices come with consequences. Losing your job can absolutely be one of them.
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Post by circusjohnson on Aug 15, 2021 0:35:55 GMT
She needs to find a new place to work. It's the epitome of selfishness to just not want too and to put at risk people who are immune compromised and cant get the vaccine.
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Post by littlemama on Aug 15, 2021 1:28:28 GMT
The boss can always give her a choice of either getting vaccinated or getting a test every single day before she starts her shift, at her cost if there is one and she can wear a KN95 mask.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Aug 15, 2021 1:32:41 GMT
I think writing a policy that puts the responsibility on the non-vaccinated to get weekly negative testing will make sure that it’s not my boss firing, but allowing everyone to make their own choice.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Aug 15, 2021 1:33:32 GMT
Your boss should consult an employment attorney rather than relying on anyone’s opinion. It’s a tricky situation now with covid. Once we write the “policy” a lawyer will review it.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Aug 15, 2021 1:34:48 GMT
The boss can always give her a choice of either getting vaccinated or getting a test every single day before she starts her shift, at her cost if there is one and she can wear a KN95 mask. I suggested weekly negative Covid testing results, daily, start of shift temperature readings, and masks for everyone, and n95 for those who remain unvaccinated.
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Post by CardBoxer on Aug 15, 2021 1:35:28 GMT
And the reasoning she’s given is it’s her choice A few employees are uncomfortable about working with/around her now. What are your thoughts on this? What do you think our boss’s options are? My thoughts are…she is right, it is her choice…if the entire rest of the office is vaccinated, why be concerned about working around one employee? They can wear a mask if they are concerned. The boss could require vaccinations to work there, but it may be difficult since when she was hired, it wasn’t a requirement. The boss could also require non-vaccinated employees to wear a mask. I believe everyone should get vaccinated and I wish everyone would but…it is their personal choice Companies are allowed to change policies as long as they’re uniformly applied and don’t discriminate against federally or locally protected classes like race, age, sex, etc. One concern is that breakthroughs are becoming much more common, and protection of fully vaccinated people from delta may be 50-60% now, rather than in the 90s (Pfizer, Moderna) it was for earlier variants, according to some studies, though with few hospitalizations or deaths. If I worked there I’d be very concerned working around her, since since even a cold can trigger cough variant asthma and other fun things, once putting me in the hospital and coughing for months afterwards.
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Post by CardBoxer on Aug 15, 2021 1:50:31 GMT
The boss can always give her a choice of either getting vaccinated or getting a test every single day before she starts her shift, at her cost if there is one and she can wear a KN95 mask. I suggested weekly negative Covid testing results, daily, start of shift temperature readings, and masks for everyone, and n95 for those who remain unvaccinated. What is the benefit of weekly testing if she gets infected the day after she’s tested? And quick tests are often inaccurate. So if she’s sent to get tested results will take a while. Sometimes there’s just no effective compromise solution. I worked in HR for years, and occasionally upper management at one organization would want to take a small step in the right direction rather than jumping in with both feet and it often caused more problems, not fewer. The employment attorney we used in difficult situations always advised against it since when it didn’t work out management would again have to say, oops, forget that new policy, now it’s this [more restrictive] one to replace that one. Not that they said oops.
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Post by ihaveonly1l on Aug 15, 2021 2:02:18 GMT
Several local businesses here are now requiring non-vaccinated employees to have weekly covid tests done on their own time to stay employed.
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