sassyangel
Drama Llama
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Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Jan 24, 2022 18:10:10 GMT
There was a woman in Minnesota who got a court order to keep her husband intubated after 2 months. She was convinced he was improving and would recover and that the hospital hadn’t done all they could to care for him. Because he lost 30lbs while being intubated. 🥴🤷🏼♀️ He died in the Houston hospital that she successfully transferred him to the other day. ![:shocked:](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/JvSt42CUoZ9LG952aAaF.jpg) I shouldn’t be shocked any more, but… I know. It really happened. www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/01/23/ventilator-lawsuit-death/
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Post by hop2 on Jan 24, 2022 18:12:18 GMT
She made her choice. Companies tend to not want unvaccinated people around. So now she has her freedom. Everybody’s happy. Some companies are ‘self insured’ and their healthcare plan is only managed by an insurance company and many of those companies do not want to pay for all these expensive lengthy hospital stays that might be avoided. Can not blame the companies in those situations. Also insurance companies are offering lower premiums to companies with high vaccination rates so it still saves the almighty dollar. Your free to not get vaccinated and the company is free to not pay for your choices by employing & insuring you. Freedom all the way around. See there a cost associated with health care being tied to your job. Maybe all those people might want to rethink universal healthcare.
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Post by amp on Jan 24, 2022 18:13:05 GMT
A vaccine doesn’t equal lost freedom. The government expanding its powers to mandate something it has never mandated before equals a loss of freedom. Liberals like to purposely conflate the two issues. The government has mandated vaccines before. Why is this one the hill conservatives are literally willing to die on? Some conservatives, the loud minority IMHO, not all conservatives. My son and I were THRILLED when the vaccine came out, and got the first available appointments...same for the booster... No, it won't prevent Covid, but if we do get it, we will not suffer as much. Same with masking, social distancing, and hand washing/sanitizing. I don't get why everyone is not rushing to get the vaccine...why are government and employer mandates even a thing?
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
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Posts: 7,456
Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Jan 24, 2022 18:18:36 GMT
The government has mandated vaccines before. Why is this one the hill conservatives are literally willing to die on? Some conservatives, the loud minority IMHO, not all conservatives. My son and I were THRILLED when the vaccine came out, and got the first available appointments...same for the booster... No, it won't prevent Covid, but if we do get it, we will not suffer as much. Same with masking, social distancing, and hand washing/sanitizing. I don't get why everyone is not rushing to get the vaccine...why are government and employer mandates even a thing? Unfortunately, that minority includes a lot of *very* loud elected representatives and influential legislatures of states.
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Post by amp on Jan 24, 2022 18:21:15 GMT
A vaccine doesn’t equal lost freedom. The government expanding its powers to mandate something it has never mandated before equals a loss of freedom. Liberals like to purposely conflate the two issues. The government mandate was blocked by the Supreme Court. But companies have always been allowed to set standards of safe practice for their industry. And that can include being vaccinated for just anything they deem necessary to keep their company running smoothly. It is not good for companies to continue to be short staffed because people are out sick with a disease that can be prevented or shortened by being vaccinated. It is not in the companies interest to be paying sick leave or increased insurance costs for something that can be vaccinated for. Not only that, if my company doesn't require vaccines and I am forced to quit teleworking (i.e., mingle with the unvaccinated), I may get another job that is safer...and then the company is out a senior engineer. I'm sure I'm not the only employee who feels this way. Employers really need to mandate vaccines. We were on site at work for one week last year. There were signs all over the building requiring masks in public areas...yet the first time I went to the ladies room (which had such a sign on the door)...some chick walked in talking loudly without a mask. I kept my distance...she was oblivious. Completely oblivious. I have no idea if she was vaccinated or not...
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Post by amp on Jan 24, 2022 18:21:50 GMT
Some conservatives, the loud minority IMHO, not all conservatives. My son and I were THRILLED when the vaccine came out, and got the first available appointments...same for the booster... No, it won't prevent Covid, but if we do get it, we will not suffer as much. Same with masking, social distancing, and hand washing/sanitizing. I don't get why everyone is not rushing to get the vaccine...why are government and employer mandates even a thing? Unfortunately, that minority includes a lot of *very* loud elected representatives and influential legislatures of states. Agreed. I hope they do not win re-election.
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tincin
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Jul 25, 2014 4:55:32 GMT
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Post by tincin on Jan 24, 2022 18:37:07 GMT
A vaccine doesn’t equal lost freedom. The government expanding its powers to mandate something it has never mandated before equals a loss of freedom. Liberals like to purposely conflate the two issues. The government has mandated vaccines before. Why is this one the hill conservatives are literally willing to die on? Because Twitler told them to. They completely ignore the fact that he’s been vaccinated. 🙄
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Post by hop2 on Jan 24, 2022 18:51:16 GMT
Some conservatives, the loud minority IMHO, not all conservatives. My son and I were THRILLED when the vaccine came out, and got the first available appointments...same for the booster... No, it won't prevent Covid, but if we do get it, we will not suffer as much. Same with masking, social distancing, and hand washing/sanitizing. I don't get why everyone is not rushing to get the vaccine...why are government and employer mandates even a thing? Unfortunately, that minority includes a lot of *very* loud elected representatives and influential legislatures of states. Not really, many of those are secretly vaxxed and just won’t tell
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
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Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Jan 24, 2022 19:01:09 GMT
Unfortunately, that minority includes a lot of *very* loud elected representatives and influential legislatures of states. Not really, many of those are secretly vaxxed and just won’t tell It doesn’t matter if they are, their legislative actions speaker louder and are far more influential. I’ll guarantee you, a bunch of the stupid republicans in my states legislature are vaccinated because they aren’t ever going to risk their own lives. But when they put forward legislation that bans mandates, their personal vaccination status has no relevance, to the widespread damage they’re doing elsewhere.
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The Great Carpezio
Pearl Clutcher
Something profound goes here.
Posts: 2,942
Jun 25, 2014 21:50:33 GMT
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Jan 24, 2022 19:10:37 GMT
A vaccine doesn’t equal lost freedom. The government expanding its powers to mandate something it has never mandated before equals a loss of freedom. Liberals like to purposely conflate the two issues. A lot of conservatives and/or anti-vaxxers purposely conflate the two as well and actually do think private business and/or state/local governments mandating vaccines does equal the loss of freedom.
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Post by epeanymous on Jan 24, 2022 19:18:51 GMT
The government mandate was blocked by the Supreme Court. But companies have always been allowed to set standards of safe practice for their industry. And that can include being vaccinated for just anything they deem necessary to keep their company running smoothly. It is not good for companies to continue to be short staffed because people are out sick with a disease that can be prevented or shortened by being vaccinated. It is not in the companies interest to be paying sick leave or increased insurance costs for something that can be vaccinated for. Not only that, if my company doesn't require vaccines and I am forced to quit teleworking (i.e., mingle with the unvaccinated), I may get another job that is safer...and then the company is out a senior engineer. I'm sure I'm not the only employee who feels this way. Employers really need to mandate vaccines. We were on site at work for one week last year. There were signs all over the building requiring masks in public areas...yet the first time I went to the ladies room (which had such a sign on the door)...some chick walked in talking loudly without a mask. I kept my distance...she was oblivious. Completely oblivious. I have no idea if she was vaccinated or not... If I had been forced to teach in person (80+ people packed into a basement room) without a vaccination requirement, I do not think I would have done so.
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Post by hop2 on Jan 24, 2022 19:27:53 GMT
A vaccine doesn’t equal lost freedom. The government expanding its powers to mandate something it has never mandated before equals a loss of freedom. Liberals like to purposely conflate the two issues. Well, since George Washington mandated vaccines during the revolutionary war, technically prior to his presidency, but after the declaration of Independence. When exactly has our government NOT mandated vaccines? This is not something new.
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Post by mandolyn9909 on Jan 24, 2022 19:40:46 GMT
I may get roasted for this...but I will say I am fully vaccinated but I am still very much against the vaccine mandates and never ending lockdowns.
It makes me so sad how much divide this situation has caused in the world.
In Canada now vaccinated nurses can work even though they are testing positive for the covid virus...but a nurse who isn't vaccinated against covid and deoesn't have covid can't work. That doesn't make sense to me. It is known now that unvaccinated people and vaccinated people can spread covid. There just seems to be so many rules like this that don't make any sense.
In canada we have been dealing with some of the harshest lockdowns so that may sway my perspective as well....Just want the world to go back to normal someday and I don't see how vaccine mandates will help with that at all.
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Post by elaine on Jan 24, 2022 20:10:10 GMT
A vaccine doesn’t equal lost freedom. The government expanding its powers to mandate something it has never mandated before equals a loss of freedom. Liberals like to purposely conflate the two issues. The woman quoted in the OP was the one who first conflated the two issues. I’m gonna guess that she isn’t a liberal.
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Post by Mel on Jan 24, 2022 20:36:24 GMT
Does she wear a seatbelt? Does she put her tray in the upright position upon takeoff and landing in a plane? I could list a thousand other "freedoms" we give up to function in society. These people need to get a fucking grip. I mean, WHY did they make it political!? I know, there's no answer to that question, but it boggles my mind. Kids have had to be vaxxed to go to school, people have to be vaxxed to go to certain countries, vaccinations have been around literally for YEARS! ::::banging head against table:::
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Post by Bridget in MD on Jan 24, 2022 21:12:54 GMT
Does she wear a seatbelt? Does she put her tray in the upright position upon takeoff and landing in a plane? I could list a thousand other "freedoms" we give up to function in society. These people need to get a fucking grip. I mean, WHY did they make it political!? I know, there's no answer to that question, but it boggles my mind. Kids have had to be vaxxed to go to school, people have to be vaxxed to go to certain countries, vaccinations have been around literally for YEARS! ::::banging head against table::: How come no one cries about getting a drivers license or a passport? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) You have to have those things to move around the world (for the most part)
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casii
Drama Llama
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Jun 29, 2014 14:40:44 GMT
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Post by casii on Jan 24, 2022 21:14:39 GMT
I hate disrobing for TSA because a guy tried to light his shoe on fire and yet here we are.
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Post by aj2hall on Jan 24, 2022 21:54:49 GMT
The government has mandated vaccines before. Why is this one the hill conservatives are literally willing to die on? State governments have. The federal government has not. Again, an absolute refusal to distinguish and understand the distinction between the two. The federal government has also mandated vaccines. Going all the way back to the revolutionary war. The military has a long history of requiring vaccines. Those drafted into service in the Vietnam era also had to get vaccines, so it's not just members that voluntarily enlisted. State Department employees are required to get vaccines. People traveling by air to the US have to be vaccinated for covid. Immigrants coming to the US are required to be vaccinated. And prior to covid, other vaccinations were required for immigrants. And the Supreme Court upheld the federal government mandate for health care workers. So yes, the federal government has mandated vaccines. travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrate/vaccinations.html
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PLurker
Prolific Pea
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Location: Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Jun 28, 2014 3:48:49 GMT
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Post by PLurker on Jan 24, 2022 22:11:33 GMT
State governments have. The federal government has not. Again, an absolute refusal to distinguish and understand the distinction between the two. We understand the distinction just fine. But we're in uncharted waters here where many states would refuse to issue such a mandate not because of concerns about safety or anything to do with public health, but for political reasons. If some states are not willing to meet their obligation to keep the public safe because the governor's concerned about winning his next election, should those of us who live in such a state have no federal recourse? As the previous poster said - it's a hill y'all are literally willing to die on. And worse, you want to take other people down with you. It's that: the no consideration and taking down of other people that gets me. Being high risk, my life is being devalued. As are anyone and everyone who have "forgone their freedom" and got the damn shot like any able person who cares for the greater good and others. And that is truly not the part that would anger me most, the me getting it part. It would kill (figuratively and/or literally) me if I got it because of an unvaxd person passing it to my food service kid who then passed it on to me. It kill him in ways other than actual death. His guilt would be beyond even though he stepped up and did/does everything he can to prevent the spread. Why can't/won't others see that and do the same?! It's not all about you! Who's the snowflakes now? In the end, enough people aren't doing the right thing to right the ship, so mandates become necessary.
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Post by Merge on Jan 24, 2022 22:25:28 GMT
We understand the distinction just fine. But we're in uncharted waters here where many states would refuse to issue such a mandate not because of concerns about safety or anything to do with public health, but for political reasons. If some states are not willing to meet their obligation to keep the public safe because the governor's concerned about winning his next election, should those of us who live in such a state have no federal recourse? As the previous poster said - it's a hill y'all are literally willing to die on. And worse, you want to take other people down with you. It's that: the no consideration and taking down of other people that gets me. Being high risk, my life is being devalued. As are anyone and everyone who have "forgone their freedom" and got the damn shot like any able person who cares for the greater good and others. And that is truly not the part that would anger me most, the me getting it part. It would kill (figuratively and/or literally) me if I got it because of an unvaxd person passing it to my food service kid who then passed it on to me. It kill him in ways other than actual death. His guilt would be beyond even though he stepped up and did/does everything he can to prevent the spread. Why can't/won't others see that and do the same?! It's not all about you! Who's the snowflakes now? In the end, enough people aren't doing the right thing to right the ship, so mandates become necessary. All of that. And unsurprisingly, those who think their rights extend to endangering everyone around them by remaining unvaccinated are the same people who think their right to keep and carry a personal arsenal trumps everyone else’s right to not be shot in a public place. It’s aallllll about them. No one else matters. The very essence of modern conservatism. The whole idea that there might be a greater good idea is anathema to them. They love to hold up Kennedy as a role model, but their idea of service to one’s country is very narrowly defined as joining the military and killing people.
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Post by Jen in NCal on Jan 24, 2022 22:25:43 GMT
A vaccine doesn’t equal lost freedom. The government expanding its powers to mandate something it has never mandated before equals a loss of freedom. Liberals like to purposely conflate the two issues. Well, since George Washington mandated vaccines during the revolutionary war, technically prior to his presidency, but after the declaration of Independence. When exactly has our government NOT mandated vaccines? This is not something new. The Supreme Court in 1776 banned vaccines to further control small pox. Washington went against them and secretly mandated vaccines for his troops entering Philadelphia. He was acting in a military capacity but not as full government. Gray area that I am proud he skirted.
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Post by elaine on Jan 24, 2022 22:29:30 GMT
Well, since George Washington mandated vaccines during the revolutionary war, technically prior to his presidency, but after the declaration of Independence. When exactly has our government NOT mandated vaccines? This is not something new. The Supreme Court in 1776 banned vaccines to further control small pox. Washington went against them and secretly mandated vaccines for his troops entering Philadelphia. He was acting in a military capacity but not as full government. Gray area that I am proud he skirted. The Supreme Court wasn’t established until March 4, 1789, so I’m not sure how that was possible.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jan 24, 2022 22:36:21 GMT
Wonder who will pay those medical bills?
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jan 24, 2022 22:39:54 GMT
I just thought of something. I am required to carry renter:s insurance to live here, as are the people who live on the two floors above me. Not only does the insurance protect the owners it protects me if one of them has a fire or water leak.
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Post by maryland on Jan 24, 2022 23:22:20 GMT
How is this different that any other vaccines we've been required to get? My kid, now an adult was REQUIRED to get a vaccine against chicken pox in order to stay in school! We've been getting vaccines and requiring vaccines for a very long time...so what's the difference now? I agree! Why do the unvaccinated get a pass this time? I wish all schools would require vaccination for those 5 and up.
It has given me and my family freedom! We know we are very unlikely to get covid (we wear a mask everywhere) or pass it on to others.
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Post by Merge on Jan 24, 2022 23:30:43 GMT
Wonder who will pay those medical bills? Wonder who had to wait longer for an ICU bed because we took in one of Minnesota’s unvaxxed.
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Post by aj2hall on Jan 24, 2022 23:37:01 GMT
Well, since George Washington mandated vaccines during the revolutionary war, technically prior to his presidency, but after the declaration of Independence. When exactly has our government NOT mandated vaccines? This is not something new. The Supreme Court in 1776 banned vaccines to further control small pox. Washington went against them and secretly mandated vaccines for his troops entering Philadelphia. He was acting in a military capacity but not as full government. Gray area that I am proud he skirted. The details of a ban seem a little unclear. Different sources cite different things. According to Newsweek, the continental congress banned vaccines in 1776 www.newsweek.com/have-vaccines-ever-been-mandated-history-joe-biden-100-million-people-george-washington-1627750According to the Washington Post, a Massachusetts court court abolished a ban on innoculation in 1776. www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/07/02/give-me-liberty-or-give-me-vaccines/In Boston, the first Independence Day was preceded by inoculation day, when the Massachusetts general court abolished a ban on inoculating people against small pox. Only people who wanted to be inoculated or had already had the disease were allowed in the city. To leave the city before the inoculation period had ended, people needed the permission of a doctor or judge.Washington ordered the troops to receive variolation (the vaccine didn't exist yet) in Feb 1977.
However, this is the important part that all of the sources agree on Washington, as General of the Continental Army gave the order for the troops to be inoculated in Feb 1777. www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/08/29/george-washington-smallpox-inoculation-army/In February of 1777, from his winter headquarters in Morristown, N.J., Washington wrote to one of his army doctors in Philadelphia:“I have determined that the troops shall be inoculated ... Necessity not only authorizes but seems to require the measure, for should the disorder infect the Army in the natural way and rage with its usual virulence we should have more to dread from it than from the Sword of the Enemy.”
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jan 24, 2022 23:47:06 GMT
Sooooo.... Are vaccine mandates 'legal'? Washington (CNN)President Joe Biden's new vaccine requirements could apply to as many as 100 million Americans, or almost two-thirds of the American workforce, and have spawned a predictable pushback from a handful of Republican states -- making them the latest frontier in the fight between the administration and state officials over how to address the ongoing pandemic. *** The Supreme Court already decided in 1905 in Jacobson v. Massachusetts that there is no constitutional right to evade a vaccination mandate calculated to protect the community," Georgia State University College of Law professor Anthony Kreis told CNN. "This is why we can permissibly have vaccination requirements for children to attend school, for example." That 1905 Supreme Court decision is seen as the most relevant case supporting the legality of vaccine mandates. Even conservative Justice Neil Gorsuch has signaled that he would vote in favor of the Massachusetts vaccine mandate if the Jacobson case was before the court today. www.cnn.com/2021/09/19/politics/biden-vaccine-mandate-fact-check/index.html
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Post by AussieMeg on Jan 24, 2022 23:49:23 GMT
In Canada now vaccinated nurses can work even though they are testing positive for the covid virus...but a nurse who isn't vaccinated against covid and deoesn't have covid can't work. That doesn't make sense to me. So are you saying that nurses who are knowingly COVID positive are allowed to go to work? They don't have to isolate for 7 days? Surely that can't be right.
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Post by aj2hall on Jan 25, 2022 1:13:24 GMT
In Canada now vaccinated nurses can work even though they are testing positive for the covid virus...but a nurse who isn't vaccinated against covid and deoesn't have covid can't work. That doesn't make sense to me. So are you saying that nurses who are knowingly COVID positive are allowed to go to work? They don't have to isolate for 7 days? Surely that can't be right. I think in some places where they are so desperate for help, they're allowing vaccinated employees who are symptom free to work. www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/guidance-risk-assesment-hcp.html
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