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Post by elaine on Jan 26, 2022 19:19:25 GMT
At our charter school, we lost 3 teachers this month at the end of the mid year semester. One retired, one took a job a public school and one left due to health issues non-covid related. Over the past 6 years, at least 14 teachers have left after a year or two of teaching. The pros and cons with educators certified from other fields is yes, very knowledgeable, a lot of shared experience from the real world in a specific field like engineering,finance etc but they don't stay teaching. They move on to other careers, more money and they are free to just move on because there is no contract. Many have moved to other states or gone back into the field they came from (not teaching). This is what we have personally experienced in our school. The future of what is really going to happen in schools is so frightening. The dedicated, hard working teachers are burnt out, they are pushed the max. They are paying more and more for subs in our public school, but consistency with teaching is key. They are not getting consistent teaching with a rotating door of subs. It definitely makes the future uncertain. Why aren’t they being offered the same contracts as other teachers? In VA, teachers who obtained their licenses by alternative education are treated exactly the same as teachers who got degrees in education. They get the same yearly contracts. As someone involved in getting her 6-12 (actually they will only give 6-12 licenses to most alternative path candidates - I desperately want K-12, but it would involve another full year of college on top of the certification coursework, including taking laboratory chemistry or biology, retaking algebra, retaking history, and then 4 undergrad education classes) license via an alternative education route: it isn’t a walk-in-the-park. There is a year’s worth of coursework and then a year of supervised full-time work as a teacher with a provisional license with monthly meetings with your supervisor. I have a PhD and have over 11 years teaching experience at the college and graduate school levels, have no problems teaching in K-12 (I’ve been subbing since September), yet I have to go through the coursework too.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jan 26, 2022 19:30:56 GMT
At our charter school, we lost 3 teachers this month at the end of the mid year semester. One retired, one took a job a public school and one left due to health issues non-covid related. Over the past 6 years, at least 14 teachers have left after a year or two of teaching. The pros and cons with educators certified from other fields is yes, very knowledgeable, a lot of shared experience from the real world in a specific field like engineering,finance etc but they don't stay teaching. They move on to other careers, more money and they are free to just move on because there is no contract. Many have moved to other states or gone back into the field they came from (not teaching). This is what we have personally experienced in our school. The future of what is really going to happen in schools is so frightening. The dedicated, hard working teachers are burnt out, they are pushed the max. They are paying more and more for subs in our public school, but consistency with teaching is key. They are not getting consistent teaching with a rotating door of subs. It definitely makes the future uncertain. Why aren’t they being offered the same contracts as other teachers? In VA, teachers who obtained their licenses by alternative education are treated exactly the same as teachers who got degrees in education. They get the same yearly contracts. I'm wondering this too - 2 of my kids' absolute favorite teachers in high school were second career teachers - one from technology that teaches computer science and one from finance that teaches economics - our state still requires licenses, the process is just different. Maybe it's different for charter schools, these are both public school teachers. Both of them have been there for a while - I hope they can survive the pandemic and all that it's added to teacher stress.
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Post by Merge on Jan 26, 2022 20:11:01 GMT
At our charter school, we lost 3 teachers this month at the end of the mid year semester. One retired, one took a job a public school and one left due to health issues non-covid related. Over the past 6 years, at least 14 teachers have left after a year or two of teaching. The pros and cons with educators certified from other fields is yes, very knowledgeable, a lot of shared experience from the real world in a specific field like engineering,finance etc but they don't stay teaching. They move on to other careers, more money and they are free to just move on because there is no contract. Many have moved to other states or gone back into the field they came from (not teaching). This is what we have personally experienced in our school. The future of what is really going to happen in schools is so frightening. The dedicated, hard working teachers are burnt out, they are pushed the max. They are paying more and more for subs in our public school, but consistency with teaching is key. They are not getting consistent teaching with a rotating door of subs. It definitely makes the future uncertain. Why aren’t they being offered the same contracts as other teachers? In VA, teachers who obtained their licenses by alternative education are treated exactly the same as teachers who got degrees in education. They get the same yearly contracts. As someone involved in getting her 6-12 (actually they will only give 6-12 licenses to most alternative path candidates - I desperately want K-12, but it would involve another full year of college on top of the certification coursework, including taking laboratory chemistry or biology, retaking algebra, retaking history, and then 4 undergrad education classes) license via an alternative education route: it isn’t a walk-in-the-park. There is a year’s worth of coursework and then a year of supervised full-time work as a teacher with a provisional license with monthly meetings with your supervisor. I have a PhD and have over 11 years teaching experience at the college and graduate school levels, have no problems teaching in K-12 (I’ve been subbing since September), yet I have to go through the coursework too. I wonder if she means that they don't get longer term contracts so they're free to leave at the end of the year? That would be normal for all teachers here. They used to do longer-term contracts for more experienced teachers but it interfered with their ability to get rid of older, more expensive teachers, so now we're all on a one-year contract. That's a crazy amount of stuff for you to get an alternative certification, though. They're much less rigorous here. And I want to reiterate I don't have it in for second-career teachers at all. I know some fantastic ones. I just think the way we do things here is not beneficial for those who choose that path, because they often aren't remotely prepared for the realities of the job. Not a fan of TFA because I think it turns teaching into a "mission" instead of a profession, and devalues experience in making a great teacher. That's a separate issue.
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Post by elaine on Jan 26, 2022 20:37:13 GMT
Why aren’t they being offered the same contracts as other teachers? In VA, teachers who obtained their licenses by alternative education are treated exactly the same as teachers who got degrees in education. They get the same yearly contracts. As someone involved in getting her 6-12 (actually they will only give 6-12 licenses to most alternative path candidates - I desperately want K-12, but it would involve another full year of college on top of the certification coursework, including taking laboratory chemistry or biology, retaking algebra, retaking history, and then 4 undergrad education classes) license via an alternative education route: it isn’t a walk-in-the-park. There is a year’s worth of coursework and then a year of supervised full-time work as a teacher with a provisional license with monthly meetings with your supervisor. I have a PhD and have over 11 years teaching experience at the college and graduate school levels, have no problems teaching in K-12 (I’ve been subbing since September), yet I have to go through the coursework too. I wonder if she means that they don't get longer term contracts so they're free to leave at the end of the year? That would be normal for all teachers here. They used to do longer-term contracts for more experienced teachers but it interfered with their ability to get rid of older, more expensive teachers, so now we're all on a one-year contract. That's a crazy amount of stuff for you to get an alternative certification, though. They're much less rigorous here. And I want to reiterate I don't have it in for second-career teachers at all. I know some fantastic ones. I just think the way we do things here is not beneficial for those who choose that path, because they often aren't remotely prepared for the realities of the job. Not a fan of TFA because I think it turns teaching into a "mission" instead of a profession, and devalues experience in making a great teacher. That's a separate issue. If that were the case, that would make sense. I simply couldn’t figure out why/how they wouldn’t have any contracts at all. But she mentioned teachers at her school walking in the middle of the school year, so maybe it is just her school that doesn’t offer teacher contracts. I do know that one of the challenges of subbing is that, besides the low pay, there are no benefits. When there are snow days, we don’t get paid. When there are holidays, we don’t get paid. We get no sick leave. I work almost full-time as a substitute (I chose to take today off to catch up on things), and that becomes an issue. My upcoming 2-week paycheck isn’t enough to cover the weekly grocery bill because I had a week’s worth of jobs cancelled due to a week’s worth of snow days. I will be a long-term sub for February and March, and while the regular teacher I’m subbing for in March has said a couple of times how great it is that I’ll make $4 more per hour, I still only get paid 7 hours per day no matter how many hours I work, and I’m expected to perform all the regular teacher duties like lesson planning and grading and writing report cards. Also, still no pay for holidays or sick leave. If we want to solve the substitute crisis, I think that school districts will have to start putting together substitute packages, where substitutes are hired as a regular position - at a significantly lower payscale than regular teachers - but with benefits. The schools I work at - ES, MS & HS - have multiple sub jobs every single day. Each school could hire 2-4 subs (depending on their average need/size of the school) as a regular position and the school could assign them each day as needed and then post other openings on the regular substitute app. There would still be a pool of substitutes who don’t want a regular full-time position. But, some people would be willing to commit to substitute if it involved something more than just fast food wages. That said, school districts will never cough up that kind of money and the teacher and substitute crisis will continue. I had never heard of TFA before this thread, so I looked it up last night. They don’t place anyone in VA, which is probably why I haven’t heard of or met any TFA teachers. And yes, after reading all the information on the website, I can understand your perspective.
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Post by Mel on Jan 26, 2022 20:38:46 GMT
MI just passed a law that any school employee can substitute teach. Yes, sanitation, bus drivera, cafeteria workers are all able to sub now. Let’s hear it for a quality education in MI folks! And my DD has graduated, and been hired as a music teacher and is having the WORST time even getting her (hard earned) Teacher's license. They are even giving her the run around about issuing a sub license until the work out the mess with her regular license!! It's ridiculous!!
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RosieKat
Drama Llama
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PeaJect #12
Posts: 5,450
Jun 25, 2014 19:28:04 GMT
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Post by RosieKat on Jan 26, 2022 20:58:41 GMT
Alternative certification programs are a big deal here in Texas and have frequently been used for critical need positions like math and science. More recently for special ed and bilingual. Charter schools have always used a high proportion of alternative cert. and TFA people. Now it's happening everywhere. It's insane. I'm not going to say that there are no excellent teachers coming out of alternative certification programs. I've seen several. But far more often, these folks have no idea what they signed up for and can't get out fast enough. Especially these last two years. And I want to reiterate I don't have it in for second-career teachers at all. I know some fantastic ones. I just think the way we do things here is not beneficial for those who choose that path, because they often aren't remotely prepared for the realities of the job. Yeah, there are definitely some great second-career and other alt certified teachers out there. But as someone who seriously considered it (in Texas), there's one huge link missing. I could walk into a classroom "today," and I might know my subject matter down cold. But unless I have teaching experience or at least some significant extra education on how to run a classroom and plan lessons and some practical psychology and management skills and a whole bucket of other stuff...I am not qualified to teach. Teaching math requires way more skills and knowledge than just knowing how to do the math. And while some people may have some natural teaching skills or other experiences that can help them with transitioning to teaching, it's only extremely rarely going to be enough. I know when I had looked into it (years and years ago), you were required to get some additional education but it was within 3 years or something. So if you have no idea how to actually teach, well, too bad on those of you stuck with Mrs. Rosiekat for those first couple of years!
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Post by Merge on Jan 26, 2022 21:06:33 GMT
Alternative certification programs are a big deal here in Texas and have frequently been used for critical need positions like math and science. More recently for special ed and bilingual. Charter schools have always used a high proportion of alternative cert. and TFA people. Now it's happening everywhere. It's insane. I'm not going to say that there are no excellent teachers coming out of alternative certification programs. I've seen several. But far more often, these folks have no idea what they signed up for and can't get out fast enough. Especially these last two years. And I want to reiterate I don't have it in for second-career teachers at all. I know some fantastic ones. I just think the way we do things here is not beneficial for those who choose that path, because they often aren't remotely prepared for the realities of the job. Yeah, there are definitely some great second-career and other alt certified teachers out there. But as someone who seriously considered it (in Texas), there's one huge link missing. I could walk into a classroom "today," and I might know my subject matter down cold. But unless I have teaching experience or at least some significant extra education on how to run a classroom and plan lessons and some practical psychology and management skills and a whole bucket of other stuff...I am not qualified to teach. Teaching math requires way more skills and knowledge than just knowing how to do the math. And while some people may have some natural teaching skills or other experiences that can help them with transitioning to teaching, it's only extremely rarely going to be enough. I know when I had looked into it (years and years ago), you were required to get some additional education but it was within 3 years or something. So if you have no idea how to actually teach, well, too bad on those of you stuck with Mrs. Rosiekat for those first couple of years! Yes, this is it exactly. Some people are naturals and just need some help from colleagues getting nuts and bolts nailed down. Most people are not naturals. I don't want to over-fetishize the skill of teaching because it's not magic. It is, however, a skill. Content knowledge is only a tiny part of it, especially in the younger grades. We currently have a young dance teacher at our school who is going through ACP. She danced all through school, majored in business, and then decided she wanted to teach. She's lovely, bright, and hardworking. She's in completely over her head in classroom management and curriculum design. The art teacher and I are supporting her as best we can, but dang. It's a rough road, coming in that way.
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Post by ntsf on Jan 26, 2022 23:38:10 GMT
I subbed for 6 yrs at a urban charter high school. I met many tfa teachers and was rarely impressed. the worse was the woman who took the last week of school off, left me the sub to introduce, supervise and collect the final product while she went to the east coast to a college reunion. the kids were disgusted cause they knew they would not get a grade on their work and they felt ignored.
to sub I had to have a college degree, past an academic test, a background check and so on. and I have lots and lots of informal teacher experience but those kids were often a real challenge.. esp to see me as a human being worthy of something.
I left to be a nanny where I could make some real money, have more flexible schedule and have more fun.
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Post by mrsscrapdiva on Jan 27, 2022 16:13:52 GMT
Sorry about that. I updated my post. No contracts for anyone at our Charter school, free to come and go.
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Post by Merge on Jan 27, 2022 16:23:47 GMT
Sorry about that. I updated my post. No contracts for anyone at our Charter school, free to come and go. Oh! Wow, I really respect that. Would never happen here.
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Post by beebee on Jan 27, 2022 17:46:05 GMT
One of my favorite principals ever just retired. He's been posting some about his experiences on FB now that he doesn't have to watch what he says so much. Something I hadn't realized is that, at least here in Houston, the vast majority of applicants are alternative cert. or TFA people. Meaning they have abbreviated training and no student teaching at all. What the heck are we doing here? Those folks are supposed to be our emergency backup plan, not the backbone of our teaching staff. Perhaps it's the district in which I teach to some degree - lots of young teachers shy away from the urban, Title 1 environment - but it was not like that when I started. At all. IMO teaching should be more like medicine, where you finish your training and then you're supervised as an "intern" - paid, of course - for a year or more before you get a classroom of your own. Of course, that would require funding we don't have. But that's what should happen. Literally everything I know about anything came from other teachers, not my classroom training. So I am a little confused about what you said. My dd is going to college to be a teacher. It has always been her passion and goal to be a teacher. At the moment she is on the four year plan, but we have talked about the alternative certification. You said the alternative route should not be the main pool of teachers to choose from, but you also said most of what you learned was from other teachers. Couldn't she learn on the job from other teachers with the alternative route? Honestly curious to know your thoughts since this is your field. Edited: Sorry, I just read the whole thread and you somewhat answered the question. Your original post just stopped me in my tracks and I did not continue reading.
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Post by maryland on Jan 27, 2022 17:49:45 GMT
Nurses too, there are nurses graduating from school who were literally locked out of hospitals and taught via zoom. They’ll have a steep learning curve after they get hired especially considering the burnt out, post traumatic stressed existing staff will have little give when they need mentors. Probably similar with teachers I know you have not had an easy time either. My daughter graduated in April and her spring semester of junior year and her senior year were lacking so much in person experience. Her classmates are so disappointed in how their jobs are going. My daughter quit her hospital job after 6 months because it was too stressful. Her orientation was shortened by over 2 weeks. Instead of having 3-4 patients, she was having 6-7 patients. So many nurses left. She was told that she came in at a bad time, and no wonder the new nurses aren't happy. The other nurses told her it used to be much better. She is now in a pediatric office, something she told me she never wanted to do. She wanted a hospital setting. Her roommate also quit a hospital job for a pediatric office.
I feel so bad for all the teachers and health care workers and anyone else that is going through this staff shortage and disrespect (from the unvaccinated).
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Post by Merge on Jan 27, 2022 18:18:54 GMT
One of my favorite principals ever just retired. He's been posting some about his experiences on FB now that he doesn't have to watch what he says so much. Something I hadn't realized is that, at least here in Houston, the vast majority of applicants are alternative cert. or TFA people. Meaning they have abbreviated training and no student teaching at all. What the heck are we doing here? Those folks are supposed to be our emergency backup plan, not the backbone of our teaching staff. Perhaps it's the district in which I teach to some degree - lots of young teachers shy away from the urban, Title 1 environment - but it was not like that when I started. At all. IMO teaching should be more like medicine, where you finish your training and then you're supervised as an "intern" - paid, of course - for a year or more before you get a classroom of your own. Of course, that would require funding we don't have. But that's what should happen. Literally everything I know about anything came from other teachers, not my classroom training. So I am a little confused about what you said. My dd is going to college to be a teacher. It has always been her passion and goal to be a teacher. At the moment she is on the four year plan, but we have talked about the alternative certification. You said the alternative route should not be the main pool of teachers to choose from, but you also said most of what you learned was from other teachers. Couldn't she learn on the job from other teachers with the alternative route? Honestly curious to know your thoughts since this is your field. Edited: Sorry, I just read the whole thread and you somewhat answered the question. Your original post just stopped me in my tracks and I did not continue reading. No worries - sorry I wasn’t clear. In my opinion, student teaching is essential and we should have more of it, not less. It gives you a base to start from. And then yes, because no one is a perfectly polished teacher right out of school, the next best source of continuous learning is watching and talking to more experienced teachers. I wish your dd luck with whatever she decides to do.
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artbabe
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,152
Jun 26, 2014 1:59:10 GMT
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Post by artbabe on Jan 28, 2022 0:58:02 GMT
I don’t know what the requirements are there but could he sub for a year? He’s probably be able to work almost full time and possibly even a foot in the door when looking for a permanent job after his student teaching is done (or at least know which buildings he won’t want to work at). I know you mean well, but if he intends to go into education, subbing during a pandemic will not be encouraging. There’s a reason we have such a hard time finding subs. I disagree with this. Subbing during the gap year sounds like a good idea to me. You earn money (not a lot) and get to practice teaching skills. Will it be encouraging? Maybe not, but it will definitely tell you if you are cut out for teaching or not. I consider my half year of subbing before I got my first job to be excellent training. I didn't learn how to construct lessons, of course, but I definitely learned classroom management. It was really good to learn how to build rapport with kids. You can be crazy good at your subject and still be a crap teacher. I don't know if there is a way to completely teach teaching. The last student teacher I had was fine with knowing the subject and designing lessons but she just had zero chemistry with the kids and no idea how to relate to them. I honestly was stumped- I had a really hard time figuring out how to help her. I was just always good at connecting with kids. I'd say go ahead and sub during that time. He will definitely learn a lot. And if he is discouraged by subbing? Better to find out whether you are a good fit now than later. And on another part of this topic: I'm a second career teacher. I have a finance degree and worked as a quality manager in the scrap metal industry. I had to go back to school to get my teaching license. I've been teaching for 28 years. Teaching is a shit show right now but I still love it in spite of it all.
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Post by Merge on Jan 28, 2022 1:06:23 GMT
I know you mean well, but if he intends to go into education, subbing during a pandemic will not be encouraging. There’s a reason we have such a hard time finding subs. I disagree with this. Subbing during the gap year sounds like a good idea to me. You earn money (not a lot) and get to practice teaching skills. Will it be encouraging? Maybe not, but it will definitely tell you if you are cut out for teaching or not. I consider my half year of subbing before I got my first job to be excellent training. I didn't learn how to construct lessons, of course, but I definitely learned classroom management. It was really good to learn how to build rapport with kids. You can be crazy good at your subject and still be a crap teacher. I don't know if there is a way to completely teach teaching. The last student teacher I had was fine with knowing the subject and designing lessons but she just had zero chemistry with the kids and no idea how to relate to them. I honestly was stumped- I had a really hard time figuring out how to help her. I was just always good at connecting with kids. I'd say go ahead and sub during that time. He will definitely learn a lot. And if he is discouraged by subbing? Better to find out whether you are a good fit now than later. And on another part of this topic: I'm a second career teacher. I have a finance degree and worked as a quality manager in the scrap metal industry. I had to go back to school to get my teaching license. I've been teaching for 28 years. Teaching is a shit show right now but I still love it in spite of it all. I guess it depends on the person - I just see subs having such a hard time right now.
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SabrinaP
Pearl Clutcher
Busy Teacher Pea
Posts: 4,371
Location: Dallas Texas
Jun 26, 2014 12:16:22 GMT
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Post by SabrinaP on Jan 28, 2022 4:51:12 GMT
One of my favorite principals ever just retired. He's been posting some about his experiences on FB now that he doesn't have to watch what he says so much. Something I hadn't realized is that, at least here in Houston, the vast majority of applicants are alternative cert. or TFA people. Meaning they have abbreviated training and no student teaching at all. What the heck are we doing here? Those folks are supposed to be our emergency backup plan, not the backbone of our teaching staff. Perhaps it's the district in which I teach to some degree - lots of young teachers shy away from the urban, Title 1 environment - but it was not like that when I started. At all. IMO teaching should be more like medicine, where you finish your training and then you're supervised as an "intern" - paid, of course - for a year or more before you get a classroom of your own. Of course, that would require funding we don't have. But that's what should happen. Literally everything I know about anything came from other teachers, not my classroom training. So I am a little confused about what you said. My dd is going to college to be a teacher. It has always been her passion and goal to be a teacher. At the moment she is on the four year plan, but we have talked about the alternative certification. You said the alternative route should not be the main pool of teachers to choose from, but you also said most of what you learned was from other teachers. Couldn't she learn on the job from other teachers with the alternative route? Honestly curious to know your thoughts since this is your field. Edited: Sorry, I just read the whole thread and you somewhat answered the question. Your original post just stopped me in my tracks and I did not continue reading. It also makes a difference what she’s planning to teach. Elementary certified teachers are a dime a dozen. We will always go with a certified teacher over and alt cert teacher. At high school levels or more specialized positions alt cert would be ok. If she’s trying to choose, student teaching is the way to go. It’s a chance to learn from a master teacher. Once you start teaching, you do learn a lot from colleagues, but you are busy and colleagues are busy, so it’s hard to find time. You also won’t have anyone in your room to help you in the moment like you do when you are student teaching. When I student taught, my cooperating teacher was nothing like the teacher I knew I wanted to be, but she still taught me so much.
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muggins
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,861
Jul 30, 2017 3:38:57 GMT
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Post by muggins on Jan 28, 2022 5:07:01 GMT
MI just passed a law that any school employee can substitute teach. Yes, sanitation, bus drivera, cafeteria workers are all able to sub now. Let’s hear it for a quality education in MI folks! They’ve changed their tune since 2019! I’m fully qualified in the U.K., taught many years full time, part time, substitute, public and private on three continents. I applied to sub in my local MI district, aced all their online tests, filled out heaps of paperwork, attended a half day seminar, excellent references, etc. But I was rejected because my U.K. university couldn’t provide every single transcript from 1992. 🤷♀️ Fuck them - good luck with the bus driver or the custodian teaching your kids.
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muggins
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,861
Jul 30, 2017 3:38:57 GMT
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Post by muggins on Jan 28, 2022 5:11:21 GMT
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