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Post by pixiechick on Feb 23, 2022 16:07:35 GMT
It is hard to keep up with these threads so thought I might post this in both threads as they now seem to be over lapping. I notice that some of the conversation has turned to vaccine effectiveness amongst all the other tangents. It is all a learning curve , for me anyway. It is not unlike a situation where I have found myself in before. I used to think that science was absolute but I found that the devil is in the detail . ( I learned this whilst home - researching a post viral health condition over many years ) There are shades of grey I have only taken a quick glance at vaccine effectiveness but if I were to take a more serious look ( which I am not ) then I would take the following factors into consideration - Epidemiological data from various countries . Comparison of above data and why variations may occur - In an earlier post I linked to data including tables that showed 2 shot vaccine effectiveness in the UK was lower than that reported by the US . The UKHSA ( UK Health Security Agency )showed roughly 40% ish effectiveness compared to 60% ish from the CDC. ( US Centre for Disease Control ) A potential reason for this could be because the UK used both Astra Zeneca and Pfizer ( confirmed ) in comparison to the US which used Moderna and Pfizer ( at least I think so but have not double checked ) Other things to take into consideration might be - Different vaccine types Timescales of waning immunity Number and timing of shots . Covid variants as vaccine efficacy for Delta was higher than for Omicron. Immunosuppressed individuals Rates of infection for different areas . Through previous personal experience of home research there a few things I picked up along the way including - Taking into consideration the ranking of a journal. Some are more respected and high profile than others. They are rated regarding their impact factor. Even high ranking journals sometimes have a controversial history on certain subjects. I also came to realise that any meta analysis is only as good as the original articles which reviewers may take at face value. If the original articles were unreliable or biased in the first place than the conclusion of any meta analysis may reflect this and could be potentially flawed leading to misleading conclusions . Decent meta analysis should highlight any weaknesses and issues concerned. In my experience this can vary. The devil in the detail is to be found in between the abstract and the conclusion of the article. There have been times when headers don’t always stand up to closer scrutiny. Going off topic slightly - The type of misleading research that I am most familiar with has thankfully since been discredited due it’s poor practices . Unfortunately the same discredited researchers have turned their attention to Long Covid. I have huge respect for the patients/ families (affected by this particular post viral illness )- dubbed as citizen scientists who have collaborated with decent medical/scientific researchers to co-author papers in order to get them published in peer reviewed journals . Amongst other researchers, they have contributed to altering particular Health guidelines in the UK and elsewhere. The new guidelines have turned the old ones upside down. This could also influence Long Covid health guidelines in the future due to their similarity. As a non-scientist I have come across information ( post viral ) that I found difficult to understand and wanted to learn more about clinical findings . As such I contacted a few biomedical researchers to ask if they could help explain things. I have been so lucky because they took the time and trouble to help. Going back to Covid , things are emerging and constantly changing medically, scientifically and politically. Information is fast moving and often contradictory . Online abuse is rife. Hate speech / crimes online have increased. I am from the UK but I read that New Zealand has a campaign to encourage people to stop and think before they press send. They try to show people that disagreement can occur and strong views expressed without resorting to personal attacks. Winding back online rage. www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/11/what-would-your-mother-say-new-zealand-urges-citizens-to-wind-back-online-rageI might just hide under the duvet now !
While science is “fluid”, ever evolving, updating —no amount of “home study or personal research/compilation of data is going to be accurate for the masses. This is your post with what you said highlighted. |
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Post by pixiechick on Feb 23, 2022 16:07:55 GMT
Doing “home research” where you’re comparing subsets of data, related or not is dicey at best, and then to combine that data from disparate studies can and usually does produce misleading or unreliable results.
While science is “fluid”, ever evolving, updating —no amount of “home study or personal research/compilation of data is going to be accurate for the masses. no amount of “home study or personal research/compilation of data is going to be accurate for the masses. Neither is across the board, no exceptions, mass mandated medical treatment. Especially given the new science and most recent information that has come out about who is most and least at risk. And the new science about the effectiveness of natural immunity. Home study, personal research/compilation of data, along with discussing with your own doctor IS going to be accurate for your personal decisions. This is my post with what I quoted you as saying, highlighted. You did not include my entire statement. You cherry picked. As you do frequently. You’re dishonest. Your post and what I quoted you as saying are exactly the same. What do you think is missing? Where is your disconnect? |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Feb 23, 2022 16:32:16 GMT
You absolutely are lying when you say masks don’t work. They do. It’s a proven verifiable fact. Prove it then. It has been. Repeatedly. By medical and scientific experts. But if you want a first hand account, myself, my hubby, nor kiddos have had covid or been sick in the last 2 years. I’m diabetic and asthmatic. We wear out masks every time we go out, at work, in a store, at gatherings we must attend. We are all now finally vaccinated. So yeah. Masks have worked. By the way, your not-so-witty comeback is really funny. I imagine you thought you were being clever and oh-so-witty typing out that sentence. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Feb 23, 2022 16:32:39 GMT
I am a strong supporter of mask wearing and use a respirator type myself . I think it all helps to reduce transmission together with ventilation and distancing. Different style masks offer different amounts of protection , cloth ones are of concern. This is something I have found online which pulls together several scientific studies . It states that although results are inconsistent on the whole mask wearing has been found to offer protection. it suggests that universal mask wearing should be applied during the pandemic and cautions against the cloth variety. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34407516/   Thank you for this. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Feb 23, 2022 16:52:24 GMT
Neither is across the board, no exceptions, mass mandated medical treatment. Especially given the new science and most recent information that has come out about who is most and least at risk. And the new science about the effectiveness of natural immunity. Home study, personal research/compilation of data, along with discussing with your own doctor IS going to be accurate for your personal decisions. This is my post with what I quoted you as saying, highlighted. You did not include my entire statement. You cherry picked. As you do frequently. You’re dishonest. Your post and what I quoted you as saying are exactly the same. What do you think is missing? Where is your disconnect? You proved my point. You conveniently left off part of my statement. As you tend to do. Your own post shows it. |
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 23:31:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2022 19:21:32 GMT
Just to clarify , it was my husband who helped with the explanation of the statistics, before medical retirement he was a physicist. As for any former comments I have received about home research concerning an illness that affects our family , I feel proud of the group of patient advocates who have exposed a flawed clinical trial, tantamount to research misconduct. It has caused patient harm for years with damaging inappropriate treatment and without home researchers / patient advocates the truth would never have been exposed. Science is supposed to be self correcting but in this case it was not and should never have passed peer review. Home research by patients and their families who experience the same illness has led to trial reanalysis which has actually changed National Health Guidelines in the UK , and influenced a care guide for ME / CFS in MAYO clinic proceedings in the US. www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(21)00513-9/fulltextIt is an achievement to be proud of. It is something that is being used by patients with Long Covid to help their cause. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2022 19:33:29 GMT
Don't notice anyone suggesting that and I surely as heck didn't. Our global vaccine roll put has been exactly that. Young healthy people in rich, predominately white countries have had 3 vaccines before many old and vunerable in the developing world have had one and vaccine mandates in aforementioned rich conutries definitley have an impact on this. But that isn't what we're discussing though regarding masks and the responsibility of others to keep vulnerable people safe But being as you have brought the subject of inequality for vaccines up, have you read the whole thread? Did you not notice that I mentioned that a fourth vaccine to young and healthy people would be unethical given the number of third world countries struggling to jab their own even with a first. I don't think the US or the UK are doing that going by what others have mentioned the criteria in the US is for a fourth jab and we are certainly not doing it. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2022 19:51:19 GMT
You just listed why masks don't work for everyone all the time. In general people who DO wear their masks properly, masks do work. And I also said that masks don't prevent you from getting or giving covid. They just don't, whether you wear them properly or not. What do you find so difficult to understand? No one is saying that masks that are available to the public will be 100% effective but I repeat in case you missed it the first time - They lower the risk. |
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moodyblue
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Post by moodyblue on Feb 23, 2022 22:45:00 GMT
Yes the vac does prevent and minimize covid in hundreds of thousands of people. That too is a proven, verifiable fact. Just because you refuse to believe it does not make it true. Only one vaxed, boosted and masked person has to get covid to make your statement untrue. It minimizes the symptoms but it does not prevent anyone from getting it. Ask the masked, vaxed and boosted people on this board that got covid despite being vaxed if that is true... Basically you are saying that “Effective = 100%; anything less than 100% is ineffective.” I personally don’t know that many people who are as black and white in their thinking as you are. My mind is boggled by that argument that the vax or masks are ineffective because they aren’t 100% in preventing illness. Staying out of the hospital and off a vent is a huge incentive for many people. We choose surgeries and medical treatments all the time without them being 100% guaranteed success. If you were told that a treatment had a 95% chance of fixing your health issue, would you refuse because it’s not 100%? |
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Post by claudia123 on Feb 24, 2022 8:33:18 GMT
Our global vaccine roll put has been exactly that. Young healthy people in rich, predominately white countries have had 3 vaccines before many old and vunerable in the developing world have had one and vaccine mandates in aforementioned rich conutries definitley have an impact on this. But that isn't what we're discussing though regarding masks and the responsibility of others to keep vulnerable people safe But being as you have brought the subject of inequality for vaccines up, have you read the whole thread? Did you not notice that I mentioned that a fourth vaccine to young and healthy people would be unethical given the number of third world countries struggling to jab their own even with a first. I don't think the US or the UK are doing that going by what others have mentioned the criteria in the US is for a fourth jab and we are certainly not doing it. I think it is what we are discuasing with regards to vaccine mandates in this thread. Also IMO it's way too late to start arguing that a 4th jab for the young and healthy in rich countries is unethical, so was a 2nd and definitely a 3rd when much higher risk people elsewhere had none. I guess it just shows it's not really about caring for others that are more vunerable and I think it comes across as very hypocritical when people argue that's why they are pro vaccine mandate. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2022 11:06:45 GMT
In relation to rates of effectiveness, I think that because there is no single precautionary measure that provides 100% protection , it makes sense to use a combination of methods which in the end provide a greater overall level of protection when added together. ( vaccination + mask + distancing + ventilation + hand washing + quarantine + testing )
Even if just two or three of these are combined together I hope it would make a big difference.
The other thing that I feel is important is transparency of information regarding infection rates and hospitalisation and sadly deaths.
Unless things have changed recently I understand that this information is proposed to be no longer published in the UK from March onwards.
Last time I looked at figures in my area before restrictions were lifted they climbed to 6000 or so per 100,000 of population. They have since gone down but I imagine they might sky rocket in the near future now that restrictions have been lifted.
I look at local infection rates before an upcoming hospital appointment and decide whether or not to postpone until a later date.
I feel really sorry for cancer patients and others who have no choice but to attend.
If the information is no longer published that only leaves the option of looking at excess mortality rates to try and gauge the extent of what is going on.
I don’t know how people are supposed to make informed choices if information is withheld. It is especially important for those who are clinically vulnerable who have to make difficult choices.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2022 11:15:17 GMT
But that isn't what we're discussing though regarding masks and the responsibility of others to keep vulnerable people safe But being as you have brought the subject of inequality for vaccines up, have you read the whole thread? Did you not notice that I mentioned that a fourth vaccine to young and healthy people would be unethical given the number of third world countries struggling to jab their own even with a first. I don't think the US or the UK are doing that going by what others have mentioned the criteria in the US is for a fourth jab and we are certainly not doing it. I think it is what we are discuasing with regards to vaccine mandates in this thread. Also IMO it's way too late to start arguing that a 4th jab for the young and healthy in rich countries is unethical, so was a 2nd and definitely a 3rd when much higher risk people elsewhere had none. I guess it just shows it's not really about caring for others that are more vunerable and I think it comes across as very hypocritical when people argue that's why they are pro vaccine mandate. Most of us are not pro-vaccine mandate. Mandated means it is forced upon you by a government. People have a choice whether they take up that offer or not in most circumstances. The only vaccine mandate here in the UK was for healthcare workers and I'm perfectly honest in the fact that I agreed with it in those circumstances. But that mandate no longer applies. I'm guessing you didn't take up the offer of the second or the booster then? If you didn't, then it was a bit of a waste to get the first one. I'm assuming you got one. From the very beginning the vaccine was a two stage immunization programme, having one without the second was pointless. It wasn't developed to be a one shot jab. Further studies that came to light later meant that the protection the first and second jab weakened after a certain amount of time. Not administrating the booster to combat this would have made the first and second shot pointless, a total waste and would undo all the protection that anyone had, in time. The reason that I think that a 4th isn't needed as yet to anyone that is fit and healthy is that the Omicron variant we have now is not such a severe illness to that category of the population. It is far milder than previous variants. Whilst I agree that there are disparities among countries but it is far more complex than just what you are suggesting, which is sacrificing the 2nd jab and the booster. |
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Post by aj2hall on Feb 24, 2022 12:28:04 GMT
But that isn't what we're discussing though regarding masks and the responsibility of others to keep vulnerable people safe But being as you have brought the subject of inequality for vaccines up, have you read the whole thread? Did you not notice that I mentioned that a fourth vaccine to young and healthy people would be unethical given the number of third world countries struggling to jab their own even with a first. I don't think the US or the UK are doing that going by what others have mentioned the criteria in the US is for a fourth jab and we are certainly not doing it. I think it is what we are discuasing with regards to vaccine mandates in this thread. Also IMO it's way too late to start arguing that a 4th jab for the young and healthy in rich countries is unethical, so was a 2nd and definitely a 3rd when much higher risk people elsewhere had none. I guess it just shows it's not really about caring for others that are more vunerable and I think it comes across as very hypocritical when people argue that's why they are pro vaccine mandate. No one is recommending a 4th jab in the US. Many of us supported a vaccine mandate for health care workers and workers in nursing homes because it helps protect the most vulnerable. Many of us supported vaccine mandates in other areas as a last resort because vaccine rates were stuck and a segment of the population was refusing to get vaccinated. The Biden administration tried lots other methods for getting people vaccinated before mandates. I can’t speak for anyone else but all along I’ve said that we need to do more to help with providing vaccines and helping with the delivery of them in lower income countries. In the spring of 2021 with a healthy 15 year old at home, I questioned vaccinating teenagers before vulnerable people around the world were vaccinated. The Biden administration is trying to do both - increase vaccination rates here and donate vaccines and resources to lower income countries. It is possible and to support vaccine mandates and vaccine equity around the world at the same time. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2022 12:52:06 GMT
Just to add my two pennies worth.
I think that this is a moral dilemma because data does show that without a booster vaccine effectiveness is drastically reduced especially with Omicron .
On the other hand limited vaccine supply does mean that vulnerable people in other countries remain at high risk.
It is difficult .
In an ideal world this is where charities , wealthy philanthropists or governments from wealthier countries collaborate together and maybe help with mask provision and sanitizers together with education about reducing risks as an interim measure. This might be very difficult though if people are struggling with overcrowded living conditions and lack of decent access to water.
I think that it should be a duty for vaccine manufacturers to make vaccines more affordable / available to poorer countries.
Wealthier governments from other countries to help out too, as it is a global issue.
I think that individuals should not be held responsible for the actions and pricing and government deals with pharmaceutical / biotech companies.
Contributing a donation to a charity that can help provide masks for example might a way forward for an individual to make a difference to help those in less fortunate circumstances enabling them get better protection without sacrificing their own booster.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2022 15:02:05 GMT
I have just had a look online and found that the the World Health Organisation had a solidarity response fund that accepted donations from people and organisations. It ceased this particular funding at the end of 2021 and no longer accepts donations from this page . ( we clicked to donate but it did not accept it ) I have still decided to post this even though it is of out date because it shows that people do care and that there are other ways to help. www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/donate   |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 24, 2022 15:42:09 GMT
I understand the concern for poorer countries access to the vaccine, but it isn't as easy as just shipping them. The Africa CDC just asked for all vaccine donations to be put on hold until at least the second half of the year. They can't use them. Between logistics and vaccine hesitancy, they just can't get enough into people's arms. www.politico.com/news/2022/02/22/africa-asks-covid-vaccine-donation-pause-00010667 |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2022 17:01:56 GMT
I just had a look Darcy and this part stood out to me -
“It’s like buying a whole basket of foods and just to put it on your kitchen counter,” he said. “If you cannot use any, it will rot. But if you do that in smaller pieces, then you still get to the end goal with the same amount of food on your kitchen table — but at least you don’t have any waste.”
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2022 15:32:19 GMT
Coda: "A protester who joined the so-called Freedom Convoy, which occupied downtown Ottawa for much of February, says he regrets taking part after he lost $13,000 and his home protesting something he never really "had a stance on." "I regret going,'' said Martin Joseph Anglehart, who spoke to CBC via Zoom from Hope, B.C. Anglehart said he has "nothing left" after spending his life savings on gas and food for the occupiers, who disrupted Ottawa's downtown core for more than three weeks." www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-convoy-protest-regrets-1.6394502 |
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dawnnikol
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Post by dawnnikol on Mar 25, 2022 18:18:36 GMT
Coda: "A protester who joined the so-called Freedom Convoy, which occupied downtown Ottawa for much of February, says he regrets taking part after he lost $13,000 and his home protesting something he never really "had a stance on." "I regret going,'' said Martin Joseph Anglehart, who spoke to CBC via Zoom from Hope, B.C. Anglehart said he has "nothing left" after spending his life savings on gas and food for the occupiers, who disrupted Ottawa's downtown core for more than three weeks." www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-convoy-protest-regrets-1.6394502I would be so damn embarrassed if I was that guy. From the article "Anglehart admits he never had "a stance on mandates" but felt drawn to the movement after he was prevented from visiting a dying friend at a Montreal hospital in June 2020 because of COVID-19 restrictions."Wow. Guess your hissy fit cost you, eh? I left my sympathy back in 2019. |
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Post by librarylady on Mar 27, 2022 22:38:08 GMT
I find it hard to have sympathy for someone who won't use his brain to make decisions.
His story shows a lot of foolish decisions. I would be deeply humiliated to tell this to the world.
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