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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2022 0:19:36 GMT
That would hurt Russia too. They may use that threat as leverage, but actually doing so would make the land they want (and some of their own) entirely useless to them. Yes it would. Putin has already determined that he can sacrifice Russian lives. The question is how many. |
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pilcas
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Post by pilcas on Feb 25, 2022 0:23:54 GMT
This was one of the interviews I was talking about: When I lived in Russia, I became friends with a girl that lives in the apartment next to us. I still follow/keep in touch with her. On her instagram tonight she is praising Putin and saying the west is blowing this out of context. That its not 'really a war' and they are only taking back what is theirs. Makes me sick. She is normally a pretty level headed woman but in the last month or so I have seen a real shift in her thinking and what she believes is happening. Its scary. Remember they have very limited access to impartial information and they are fed the government party line for breakfast, lunch and dinner. |
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Sarah*H
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Post by Sarah*H on Feb 25, 2022 0:26:36 GMT
What is the coverage like in Europe? I'm seeing so many clips on twitter and posts on FB about how well Ukraine has fought back today, about protests in Russia and this cautious optimism that maybe the end isn't inevitable. We seem to want to convince ourselves that this is going to have a happy ending.  |
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Post by Linda on Feb 25, 2022 0:29:21 GMT
What is the coverage like in Europe? I'm seeing so many clips on twitter and posts on FB about how well Ukraine has fought back today, about protests in Russia and this cautious optimism that maybe the end isn't inevitable. We seem to want to convince ourselves that this is going to have a happy ending.  and www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine are mostly where I'm reading (albeit from the US not from Europe) |
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sassyangel
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Post by sassyangel on Feb 25, 2022 0:31:22 GMT
That would hurt Russia too. They may use that threat as leverage, but actually doing so would make the land they want (and some of their own) entirely useless to them. Yes it would. Putin has already determined that he can sacrifice Russian lives. The question is how many. It’s not just Russian lives, although I agree with you he would sacrifice them in a heartbeat, without remorse. It’s that unleashing that kind of destruction, you cannot control the radius of nuclear fallout like that. It makes areas uninhabitable (read unfarmable/unusable) for thousands of years depending on what the fallout consists of. |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Feb 25, 2022 0:42:41 GMT
I appreciate a viewpoint from other countries. I was offended by her saying that this was the fault of the US. I do agree that there is a complex history of the world but do not believe that the US is to blame for all of that as her post implied. We can all postulate on what could have been different (for better AND for worse) if xyz hadn’t happened but we are here right now and trying to find the right move for this situation. As I said in my previous post, it is frustrating to hear various messages, such as this is the fault of the US, to the US should be doing more, to the US is not doing enough. That is what really triggered me in this thread. As well as some of the comments in the European thread that relate to this thread. It’s frustrating to hear the viewpoints of other countries? Typical. That is not what I said at all. What is frustrating is that we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t. |
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amom23
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Post by amom23 on Feb 25, 2022 1:43:44 GMT
So you come in and start posting in an adversarial way, knowing full well that what you say is going to piss people off (and saying so), yet when that happens you don’t like it? Got it. I didn’t twist anything. Go re-read your post on the other thread. The one where you complained that on this thread it was all “Putin, Putin, Putin” and “our poor soldiers.” I can agree with what you said in another post. But the tone of that post was much different than the anti-American rants that you started with. No ma’am. She absolutely was not adversarial. You were. And now you’ve chased her off with your ignorant American ridiculousness. YOU are the only one who treated her like that on this thread. YOU are being an absolute bitch to her and you are the problem. Nobody appointed you the board police aka bully so knock it off. Everyone has a right to ask questions and express their opinions. If you don't like it then too damn bad. |
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Post by Linda on Feb 25, 2022 1:47:31 GMT
That is not what I said at all. What is frustrating is that we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t. that is because the situation is a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation - if the US/NATO/UN/EU (any/some/all) get involved militarily, then we're at WW3, if they don't, Ukraine is almost certainly going to be sacrificed (and there's still no guarantee of avoiding WW3). As frustrating as it is on this side of it - imagine how frustrating (and terrifying) it is to be Ukraine right? |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Feb 25, 2022 1:48:45 GMT
Biden has said that the US isn't sending troops to fight Russia. Surely people will in Europe will be happy about that so they can handle it, right? What does this mean? We're talking about the sovereignty of EU-integrated European nations since WW2. I feel like we're having two different discussions here. Long-term vs short-term. How can "Europe" handle this anyway? We're not an entity like the United States of America. Russia is part of Europe, too. This abstract notion of Europe doesn't work here. You're addressing a phantom. Ukraine is not part of the EU. This is why I didn't want to get involved in this discussion. I am not in the mood to take on this kind of view of Europe and the world. It's exhausting and frankly infuriating. Your perspective and knowledge is absolutely needed. Please stay. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Feb 25, 2022 2:04:12 GMT
I don't think that mothers saying they worry for their sons who are in the military means that they are self-centered or not thinking/worrying about the people of Ukraine. Thanks for the twisting of my words and rhetorics of pathos. I'm out of this discussion. Have fun with your echo chamber. Have pride in running other people out. Those who actually live on the affected continent. Well done. Please don’t leave. Your threads are absolutely educational and a benefit. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Feb 25, 2022 2:16:41 GMT
Thanks for the twisting of my words and rhetorics of pathos. I'm out of this discussion. Have fun with your echo chamber. Have pride in running other people out. Those who actually live on the affected continent. Well done. So you come in and start posting in an adversarial way, knowing full well that what you say is going to piss people off (and saying so), yet when that happens you don’t like it? Got it. I didn’t twist anything. Go re-read your post on the other thread. The one where you complained that on this thread it was all “Putin, Putin, Putin” and “our poor soldiers.” I can agree with what you said in another post. But the tone of that post was much different than the anti-American rants that you started with. Oh my gosh..you need to stop. Seriously, sit back and just listen. |
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Post by mollycoddle on Feb 25, 2022 3:41:17 GMT
Credit where credit is due. Bernie Sanders statement on Ukraine is very good.
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Post by miominmio on Feb 25, 2022 6:45:19 GMT
I don't have the background knowledge (or the desire!) to argue with anyone on this thread. Instead, I am enjoying learning and I can appreciate that people in other countries might look at this issue very differently than those of us in the US. And, please don't assume that all Americans would be similarly offended by the viewpoint from another country. I appreciate a viewpoint from other countries. I was offended by her saying that this was the fault of the US. I do agree that there is a complex history of the world but do not believe that the US is to blame for all of that as her post implied. We can all postulate on what could have been different (for better AND for worse) if xyz hadn’t happened but we are here right now and trying to find the right move for this situation. As I said in my previous post, it is frustrating to hear various messages, such as this is the fault of the US, to the US should be doing more, to the US is not doing enough. That is what really triggered me in this thread. As well as some of the comments in the European thread that relate to this thread. Try to think of this perspective: the US and Russia have used Europe as their Chess board since WW2 (a d yes, I am fully aware that both countries do the same elsewhere as well), we are the pawns that can be sacrified so that the two of you can prosper. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2022 9:52:31 GMT
I agree that there have been policy and military decisions over the years that have created the situation that we are in now. But I disagree that the US is the only country that has made influential decisions or is to blame for everything that has happened. EVERY country has a history. I find it very offensive to blame Russia invading Ukraine on anyone but Putin. Biden has said that the US isn't sending troops to fight Russia. Surely people will in Europe will be happy about that so they can handle it, right? No one is saying Putin isn’t responsible. He clearly is. But there is also a long history of geopolitical machinations by the US, by Russia, by China. By all the “developed” countries. The history of colonization and manipulations is important. That doesn’t negate Putin’s responsibility. I am at a loss at where you are getting these comments from. No one in this thread (including sleepingbooty ) are solely blaming the US. Of course it was Putin's decision to invade Ukraine. But what people are saying that many countries bare some culpability in laying the groundwork for this all to happen...including the US. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2022 9:58:43 GMT
I, too, agree with the essay sideways posted. This is simply the entire thing in a nutshell. We can push sanctions all we want. Not going to change what is happening here. There are two choices. 1. We simply step back and let Putin have Ukraine. Life in the U.S. will continue pretty much as it has. We'll have inflation, high gas costs, etc. etc. But we'll be safe and secure in our part of the world. In the grand scheme of things (sad though it makes us) it is better for them to be destroyed than for the whole world to go to war. But the fact is, no matter how much we try to convince ourselves otherwise, Putin will not be satisfied with Ukraine no matter how much we try to convince ourselves that that will just be the end of it. 2. We go to war. No one knows how that will end. Might be more horrific than any of us can imagine. Of course, it COULD end with Putin losing and Ukraine and Poland and Finland and (on and on and on) surviving the monster that is Putin. Those are the ONLY choices. No matter how we pretend otherwise. I guess each of us will have to decide which option we can live with best. And now something else: I enjoy sleeping booty's perspectives as much as anyone. But it is HER perspective. It is NOT the perspective of all of France. Anymore than some of the commentary on this thread reflect the perspective of all Americans. For instance: I personally am pretty proud of my country and how we have generally acted throughout history. Especially in WW II. There are over 400,000 graves of Americans littered all over the world who died for freedom and I will never be anything but proud of them and their sacrifice. I think it was shameful to jump on ImKristin for her statements. She has as much right to her perspective as anyone on here. We all come from different places in our thinking. We all have our own perspectives. So, yes, sleeping booty, please continue to give us insight as to the thoughts and feelings of some of your countrymen but please don't just throw up your hands and say "well I'm leaving" if someone disagrees with you. Lots of people will disagree with you, including many of your own countrymen. Lots of people will agree with you. May I ask how do you know that it is not the perspective of many in France? Do you live there? Do you know many French people? How can you determine that is not a popular viewpoint in France? Is it just because you don't agree with it and thus label it as a minority view? I have lived abroad for 10 years now, which is long enough for me to learn how very different things are here than how they are perceived back in the States. I think it's incredibly short-sighted to disregard someone's information from a country we don't live in...just because it does not align with your viewpoint. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2022 10:06:53 GMT
What is the coverage like in Europe? I'm seeing so many clips on twitter and posts on FB about how well Ukraine has fought back today, about protests in Russia and this cautious optimism that maybe the end isn't inevitable. We seem to want to convince ourselves that this is going to have a happy ending.  We are getting most of our news from Arabic News. Although all of it doesn't look like video from TV cameras. Quite a bit are possible from cell phones. We have CNN on one TV and the Arabic on another. The Arabic channels show a bit more of the fighting. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2022 10:13:02 GMT
Try to think of this perspective: the US and Russia have used Europe as their Chess board since WW2 (a d yes, I am fully aware that both countries do the same elsewhere as well), we are the pawns that can be sacrified so that the two of you can prosper. I would ABSOLUTELY agree with this and take it a step further going back to the Treaty of Versailles. |
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Post by gar on Feb 25, 2022 11:59:28 GMT
I, too, agree with the essay sideways posted. This is simply the entire thing in a nutshell. We can push sanctions all we want. Not going to change what is happening here. There are two choices. 1. We simply step back and let Putin have Ukraine. Life in the U.S. will continue pretty much as it has. We'll have inflation, high gas costs, etc. etc. But we'll be safe and secure in our part of the world. In the grand scheme of things (sad though it makes us) it is better for them to be destroyed than for the whole world to go to war. But the fact is, no matter how much we try to convince ourselves otherwise, Putin will not be satisfied with Ukraine no matter how much we try to convince ourselves that that will just be the end of it. 2. We go to war. No one knows how that will end. Might be more horrific than any of us can imagine. Of course, it COULD end with Putin losing and Ukraine and Poland and Finland and (on and on and on) surviving the monster that is Putin. Those are the ONLY choices. No matter how we pretend otherwise. I guess each of us will have to decide which option we can live with best. And now something else: I enjoy sleeping booty's perspectives as much as anyone. But it is HER perspective. It is NOT the perspective of all of France. Anymore than some of the commentary on this thread reflect the perspective of all Americans. For instance: I personally am pretty proud of my country and how we have generally acted throughout history. Especially in WW II. There are over 400,000 graves of Americans littered all over the world who died for freedom and I will never be anything but proud of them and their sacrifice. I think it was shameful to jump on ImKristin for her statements. She has as much right to her perspective as anyone on here. We all come from different places in our thinking. We all have our own perspectives. So, yes, sleeping booty, please continue to give us insight as to the thoughts and feelings of some of your countrymen but please don't just throw up your hands and say "well I'm leaving" if someone disagrees with you. Lots of people will disagree with you, including many of your own countrymen. Lots of people will agree with you. May I ask how do you know that it is not the perspective of many in France? Do you live there? Do you know many French people? How can you determine that is not a popular viewpoint in France? Is it just because you don't agree with it and thus label it as a minority view? I have lived abroad for 10 years now, which is long enough for me to learn how very different things are here than how they are perceived back in the States. I think it's incredibly short-sighted to disregard someone's information from a country we don't live in...just because it does not align with your viewpoint.I imagine it's quite shocking to hear that your view of your country as being the 'hero' nation isn't always seen that way by others. No one is saying USA should shoulder all the blame, of course not, but it seems that you're loathe to even give that thought the time of day snowsilver. |
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Post by aj2hall on Feb 25, 2022 13:21:15 GMT
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Post by aj2hall on Feb 25, 2022 13:36:34 GMT
With regards to the US role in WW II, yes the servicemen and women who died and made sacrifices were heroic. As well as the rest of the country that stepped up to the plate, volunteered and helped with the war effort. However, I think many Americans ignore our role leading up to the war. Yes, Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany bear the blame but the treaty of Versailles was part of the reason why Hitler rose to power. And the US helped negotiate the treaty and signed it. Also, the US waited until Pearl Harbor was invaded before stepping in. The major powers in Europe with the exception of Great Britain had already been taken over by Germany. And Great Britain was under constant attack, there were bombings across the country, especially in ports and cities. Major parts of London and other cities were destroyed and had to be rebuilt. They lived with severe rations and shortages throughout the war, consider the significant supply chain disruptions. Families were separated, out of desperation parents sent children to the country in hopes of keeping them safe. The UK was left to fight Germany mostly by themselves for almost 2 years and suffered terribly. I know hindsight is always 20/20, but the criticism that the US waited too long to get involved is fair. Another fair criticism - we could have changed the immigration policy and saved more Jewish refugees. And then there are the Japanese internment camps. Here are a couple of interesting articles on the subject www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/the-debate-behind-us-intervention-in-world-war-ii/277572/www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/great-debateexhibitions.ushmm.org/americans-and-the-holocaust/how-many-refugees-came-to-the-united-states-from-1933-1945www.smithsonianmag.com/history/us-government-turned-away-thousands-jewish-refugees-fearing-they-were-nazi-spies-180957324/I think there are some parallels between WW II, US involvement and the current situation. And we are not the hero in either story. |
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Post by aj2hall on Feb 25, 2022 14:05:29 GMT
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Post by gillyp on Feb 25, 2022 14:37:15 GMT
And Great Britain was under constant attack, major parts of London were destroyed. Not just London. Our ports, Liverpool, Cardiff, Belfast, Bristol etc were all targeted specifically and the maps in this report show the extent of the bombing the UK suffered. Children were evacuated from their homes in the cities and sent to live with strangers in the country where it was hoped they would be safe. Some didn’t get to see their parents again for years. My grandparents, parents and two of my siblings who were infants lived in Liverpool which is where the purple colouring on the left is. My husbands relatives, parents, sibling were just a few miles away. I wasn’t even born but the aftermath of the War was still such a big deal when I was growing up; it was likely a big deal for other European Peas families too. www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-7579787/amp/Heat-map-reveals-devastating-impact-bombs-fell-UK-World-War-II.html I’m not even sure why I’m posting this in a thread about the Ukraine and Putin and I am completely aware the UK has been responsible for appalling acts over the centuries; I guess a little bit of history can never go amiss. ETA : there is a powerful saying, the origin of which does not seem to have been established. Thoughts are that it could have been by Winston Churchill, others, wrongly, thought it was Bertrand Russell “War does not determine who is right, only who is left”. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Feb 25, 2022 15:26:06 GMT
May I ask how do you know that it is not the perspective of many in France? Do you live there? Do you know many French people? How can you determine that is not a popular viewpoint in France? Is it just because you don't agree with it and thus label it as a minority view? I have lived abroad for 10 years now, which is long enough for me to learn how very different things are here than how they are perceived back in the States. I think it's incredibly short-sighted to disregard someone's information from a country we don't live in...just because it does not align with your viewpoint.I imagine it's quite shocking to hear that your view of your country as being the 'hero' nation isn't always seen that way by others. No one is saying USA should shoulder all the blame, of course not, but it seems that you're loathe to even give that thought the time of day snowsilver. It feels like “romanticism”. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2022 15:32:53 GMT
I imagine it's quite shocking to hear that your view of your country as being the 'hero' nation isn't always seen that way by others. It's only shocking to those Americans who live in their little bubbles, never read foreign media or listen to foreign news reports (DW for example or BBC at the very least). When the bulk of your history comes from Hollywood's "Saving Private Ryan" or granddad's stories of his experiences (not to minimize those, but you don't necessarily have a good grip geopolitics just because you manned a bomber) vs. actual books on history and politics and resources; when you don't understand the haphazard reshaping of the world by the imperial powers - who thought they could draw lines on maps after wars and the native populations would just fall into line. |
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Post by onelasttime on Feb 25, 2022 15:36:26 GMT
May I ask how do you know that it is not the perspective of many in France? Do you live there? Do you know many French people? How can you determine that is not a popular viewpoint in France? Is it just because you don't agree with it and thus label it as a minority view? I have lived abroad for 10 years now, which is long enough for me to learn how very different things are here than how they are perceived back in the States. I think it's incredibly short-sighted to disregard someone's information from a country we don't live in...just because it does not align with your viewpoint.I imagine it's quite shocking to hear that your view of your country as being the 'hero' nation isn't always seen that way by others. No one is saying USA should shoulder all the blame, of course not, but it seems that you're loathe to even give that thought the time of day snowsilver . It’s more of the United States is seen as a royal pain in the ass until they are needed then they aren’t sort of thing. |
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Post by gar on Feb 25, 2022 15:39:06 GMT
I imagine it's quite shocking to hear that your view of your country as being the 'hero' nation isn't always seen that way by others. No one is saying USA should shoulder all the blame, of course not, but it seems that you're loathe to even give that thought the time of day snowsilver . It’s more of the United States is seen as a royal pain in the ass until they are needed then they aren’t sort of thing. 😊 Predictable. |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Feb 25, 2022 15:39:39 GMT
No one is saying Putin isn’t responsible. He clearly is. But there is also a long history of geopolitical machinations by the US, by Russia, by China. By all the “developed” countries. The history of colonization and manipulations is important. That doesn’t negate Putin’s responsibility. I am at a loss at where you are getting these comments from. No one in this thread (including sleepingbooty ) are solely blaming the US. Of course it was Putin's decision to invade Ukraine. But what people are saying that many countries bare some culpability in laying the groundwork for this all to happen...including the US. That is how I took one of her first posts. “This is Germany and the US’s problem”. In the other thread she also implied that Americans in this thread don’t care about the people of Ukraine and are only talking about “Putin Putin” and “our soldiers” after mothers whose sons are in the service expressed concern for them. ETA that I also don’t see snowsilver’s post as dismissing sleepingbooty’s opinion. She was stating that that is her opinion, just like my opinion is my opinion. Not everyone from one country is going to have the same opinion. Could I have misunderstood what she was trying to say because I was irritated by other things as well as the tone of her post, sure. But I do still think her posts were offensive and that is my opinion. I do agree with one of her later posts, and do not think that the US has been perfect throughout history. But I also don’t think that is true for any country. If we want to discuss the events leading to wwII or any event throughout history, we should be including all of the countries roles, not just the US. That is the last I will say about this, as it isn’t the real point of this thread and shouldn’t be the focus. |
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sassyangel
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Post by sassyangel on Feb 25, 2022 15:44:17 GMT
My poppa served in the British Navy during WWII. Too late - and then wanted to take credit for everything - was how he used to put it, matter of factly how he felt. When I was younger I used to think that was a bit uncharitable of him. Until I actually learned about WWII myself, and that from June 1940 when Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg and France fell, Britain fought alone for a year and a half until December 1941 - under direct attack for a lot of it. I understood why he likely felt that way, a bit more. 🤷🏼♀️ |
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sassyangel
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Post by sassyangel on Feb 25, 2022 15:45:56 GMT
I imagine it's quite shocking to hear that your view of your country as being the 'hero' nation isn't always seen that way by others. No one is saying USA should shoulder all the blame, of course not, but it seems that you're loathe to even give that thought the time of day snowsilver . It’s more of the United States is seen as a royal pain in the ass until they are needed then they aren’t sort of thing. Pffft. *snort* |
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Post by onelasttime on Feb 25, 2022 15:50:12 GMT
It’s more of the United States is seen as a royal pain in the ass until they are needed then they aren’t sort of thing. 😊 Predictable. The fact that you don’t see it doesn’t mean that it’s not true. But believe what you want. |
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