ellen
Drama Llama

Posts: 5,129
Jun 30, 2014 12:52:45 GMT
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Post by ellen on Aug 17, 2022 3:56:19 GMT
Since the union was part of this decision, I am going to assume that they expect this to not be much of an issue for them. In the last five years we have seen a dramatic decrease in the amount of applicants for teaching jobs in my area. It is statewide and it is expected to get worse. They are likely to be struggling to fill positions. We need more diversity in education. I'm guessing that Republicans will use this as a way to bash public schools and the city of Minneapolis. They try to keep the rural white people in Minnesota outraged about Minneapolis.
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 17, 2022 4:20:17 GMT
Since the union was part of this decision, I am going to assume that they expect this to not be much of an issue for them. In the last five years we have seen a dramatic decrease in the amount of applicants for teaching jobs in my area. It is statewide and it is expected to get worse. They are likely to be struggling to fill positions. We need more diversity in education. I'm guessing that Republicans will use this as a way to bash public schools and the city of Minneapolis. They try to keep the rural white people in Minnesota outraged about Minneapolis. We are starting the year with student teachers as teachers and long term subs as teachers. We aren't going to have RIF for a while
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Post by elaine on Aug 17, 2022 10:54:04 GMT
Since the union was part of this decision, I am going to assume that they expect this to not be much of an issue for them. In the last five years we have seen a dramatic decrease in the amount of applicants for teaching jobs in my area. It is statewide and it is expected to get worse. They are likely to be struggling to fill positions. We need more diversity in education. I'm guessing that Republicans will use this as a way to bash public schools and the city of Minneapolis. They try to keep the rural white people in Minnesota outraged about Minneapolis. The article is from The College Fix - which is rated as a conservative site. The author quotes someone from Liberty Unyielding which is rated as a very conservatively biased site. So, you can take this as some Republicans using this as a way to bash public schools. I teach in a school that has at least 50% of the students from Korean descent. We hire as many Korean staff (admin, teachers, paras) because, not only does it provide good role models for the students to see staff who look like them, but because the teachers and admin are able to communicate and form good partnerships with the parents/caregivers of the students. Truly good teaching also involves these working partnerships with the parents/caregivers of students whenever possible. Sometimes cultural similarities helps form these partnerships. I think that if one grows up in the majority culture, it can be hard to grasp the impact of a shared culture because it is taken for granted and therefore not thought about.
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Post by hop2 on Aug 17, 2022 12:12:35 GMT
The teachers union and the school district reached this agreement. They are the parties affected by the agreement. They all agreed. Which means, if the issue presented is true that there are more white educators than non white, then a significant portion of the white educators in the union voted for it? So the majority of both sides agreed to it. I do feel uncomfortable with the basis for retaining an employee be based on race because if you put any other race but white there it would be an issue. However, they stated they have a problem getting & keeping non white educators. One has to wonder why. Is it an inherently racist environment that POC would not want to be in? Is it salary based? See the reason for the clause in the agreement and I also do not agree with it simply based on that it is based on race. I think they need to look deeper into why the issue is happening and what other things they can do to fix the issue because that clause is not going to fix the issue.
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Post by Merge on Aug 17, 2022 12:16:54 GMT
That's been the previous policy and is the policy most places that I'm aware of - RIFs are done based on seniority. This new policy appears to be simply an amendment to that. And again I'd ask you - if you want teachers judged on quality, what metric(s) do you suggest? And what is your basis of expertise for selecting them? You're new here, so I'm not sure of your background. What metrics determine quality of a teacher now? For the purposes of RIF? None. They’ve been using seniority alone. You seem familiar …
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Post by Merge on Aug 17, 2022 12:18:58 GMT
The teachers union and the school district reached this agreement. They are the parties affected by the agreement. They all agreed. Which means, if the issue presented is true that there are more white educators than non white, then a significant portion of the white educators in the union voted for it? So the majority of both sides agreed to it. I do feel uncomfortable with the basis for retaining an employee be based on race because if you put any other race but white there it would be an issue. However, they stated they have a problem getting & keeping non white educators. One has to wonder why. Is it an inherently racist environment that POC would not want to be in? Is it salary based? See the reason for the clause in the agreement and I also do not agree with it simply based on that it is based on race. I think they need to look deeper into why the issue is happening and what other things they can do to fix the issue because that clause is not going to fix the issue. The article states that Black educators have repeatedly been excessed out because they are the new ones at the school. That’s a big part of the problem.
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Post by hop2 on Aug 17, 2022 12:19:05 GMT
I'm guessing that Republicans will use this as a way to bash public schools and the city of Minneapolis. They try to keep the rural white people in Minnesota outraged about Minneapolis. This is why I do not like the language that race is a factor in retention. It will rile up people. You can fire the worst most awful teacher and if they are white they will sue based on this. There have to be better ways to fix the issue. I don’t know, like start by paying teachers as if they are the licensed professionals that they are. It’s crazy if you compare teacher salaries to other professionals.
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Post by hop2 on Aug 17, 2022 12:19:55 GMT
Which means, if the issue presented is true that there are more white educators than non white, then a significant portion of the white educators in the union voted for it? So the majority of both sides agreed to it. I do feel uncomfortable with the basis for retaining an employee be based on race because if you put any other race but white there it would be an issue. However, they stated they have a problem getting & keeping non white educators. One has to wonder why. Is it an inherently racist environment that POC would not want to be in? Is it salary based? See the reason for the clause in the agreement and I also do not agree with it simply based on that it is based on race. I think they need to look deeper into why the issue is happening and what other things they can do to fix the issue because that clause is not going to fix the issue. The article states that Black educators have repeatedly been excessed out because they are the new ones at the school. That’s a big part of the problem. Well, seniority alone has never been a great metric.
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Post by Merge on Aug 17, 2022 12:29:51 GMT
The article states that Black educators have repeatedly been excessed out because they are the new ones at the school. That’s a big part of the problem. Well, seniority alone has never been a great metric. No it has not. Which is why I’ve been asking people here what other metric they would use. Not necessarily directed at you, but some general thoughts for the group: How are employees evaluated at your job? Are they evaluated in such a way that people are ranked based on a "quality" score, or is it a more holistic evaluation designed to help you improve? If the latter, you might understand why it's difficult to rank teachers based on quality and simply cut from the bottom. My very large district attempted to roll out a "value added measure" score based on test scores for teachers about a decade ago. For a few years we even had bonuses based on those scores, and some teachers cashed in. One problem was that it made student test scores competitive between teachers and discouraged collaboration. A more important problem was that it discouraged teachers from wanting to teach the most struggling learners. Another issue was that the algorithm used to calculate the "VAM" was so opaque that the PhD-holding head of the math department at one of our top high schools wrote a scathing critique of its validity. Now we use student improvement over the course of the year as one measure of teacher quality, and we also have multiple admin observations and are required to set goals for ourselves each year and report on progress. We have meetings with admin to discuss the observations and target areas for improvement. These things result in teachers being assigned a score from 1-4 at the end of the year, with 4 being "highly effective." My understanding is that this more holistic approach is similar to what some other professionals experience. It's tempting to say, oh, just RIF the teachers who get a 1 - but the thing is that teachers past probationary status who get a 1 more than one year are already going to be non-renewed. Few people doing that badly at the job stay in it. For the rest, a high 2 is a typical score for a newish teacher, and it doesn't mean you're a bad teacher. A 3 is typical for a more experienced teacher with developed skills, and 4 means you're really above and beyond. Admin is encouraged to give 4s sparingly - there are a lot of hoops to jump through to reach that level that don't necessarily indicate higher quality, but rather a willingness to spend hours putting together written and video evidence in various areas. Many older teachers like me don't see the point.  Our society seems so eager to rank teaching and learning as if teachers are students are widgets. But we are all human beings with strengths and weaknesses. We shouldn't rank the quality of our students based solely on test scores, and we shouldn't rank teachers based on test scores or evaluations. I'm not sure people in most other careers would put up with being ranked against their peers that way, either - it feels quite dehumanizing. So in deciding RIFs, districts have defaulted to seniority as the only truly objective measure. And that measure has had some unintended consequences that are contrary to the district's laudable diversity goals, so they've put an imperfect mitigation measure in place. And yes, conservatives will scream and cry about it, but what else do any of them suggest?
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,919
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Aug 17, 2022 15:03:22 GMT
What if you’re a teacher who’s half-white and half-black? I have a feeling the first lawsuit emerging from this will render this policy violative of Title VII. I don’t think any reasonable person would be against promoting diversity in the teacher population and I, too, think that seniority is a poor basis in layoff decisions. That does not, in any way, encourage excellence in a given profession. However, you cannot use race or the color of one’s skin as the basis for a layoff. I’m leaning toward hop2 ‘s opinion—if there is a problem in the school district of underrepresentation, there have to be better means to ameliorate it as opposed to this. I brought up a son and IME, the best teachers he’s had over many years had been a mix of all sorts of races and colors. Why should the merits of teachers hinge on race? This may not sound PC at all, but if I was a black educator, I would consider this offensive pandering.
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Post by Merge on Aug 17, 2022 15:30:26 GMT
Another option, of course, would be to allow districts to operate with all hired staff for the duration of the current contract year at least. Requiring school districts to operate with what are basically skeleton crews is a big part of the problem here. Believe me, there are plenty of things for "extra" teachers to help with. Excessing teachers after the year has started seems unnecessary.
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Post by Merge on Aug 17, 2022 15:31:52 GMT
What if you’re a teacher who’s half-white and half-black? I have a feeling the first lawsuit emerging from this will render this policy violative of Title VII. I don’t think any reasonable person would be against promoting diversity in the teacher population and I, too, think that seniority is a poor basis in layoff decisions. That does not, in any way, encourage excellence in a given profession. However, you cannot use race or the color of one’s skin as the basis for a layoff. I’m leaning toward hop2 ‘s opinion—if there is a problem in the school district of underrepresentation, there have to be better means to ameliorate it as opposed to this. I brought up a son and IME, the best teachers he’s had over many years had been a mix of all sorts of races and colors. Why should the merits of teachers hinge on race? This may not sound PC at all, but if I was a black educator, I would consider this offensive pandering. Interesting. Do you feel that way about affirmative action programs as well? I think what they're trying to achieve here is the "mix" you mention - in many public schools, the staff as a whole is overwhelmingly white and female.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,919
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Aug 17, 2022 15:45:49 GMT
What if you’re a teacher who’s half-white and half-black? I have a feeling the first lawsuit emerging from this will render this policy violative of Title VII. I don’t think any reasonable person would be against promoting diversity in the teacher population and I, too, think that seniority is a poor basis in layoff decisions. That does not, in any way, encourage excellence in a given profession. However, you cannot use race or the color of one’s skin as the basis for a layoff. I’m leaning toward hop2 ‘s opinion—if there is a problem in the school district of underrepresentation, there have to be better means to ameliorate it as opposed to this. I brought up a son and IME, the best teachers he’s had over many years had been a mix of all sorts of races and colors. Why should the merits of teachers hinge on race? This may not sound PC at all, but if I was a black educator, I would consider this offensive pandering. Interesting. Do you feel that way about affirmative action programs as well? I think what they're trying to achieve here is the "mix" you mention - in many public schools, the staff as a whole is overwhelmingly white and female. Affirmative action is a legal corrective to racial discrimination. If the school district here was hiring teachers for the sole reason that they’re white, then that would certainly be illegal. I’m assessing this from the specific issue of layoffs. If an employer told me, “We’re not laying you off, Liz, because you’re black” instead of basing my retention on, say, exemplary performance, then that IS pandering. How does that encourage excellence in the teaching profession? The extremely long fight of black people for civil rights has always been about fairness and equality under the law. It wasn’t about constraining the civil rights of others in pursuit of preferential treatment.
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Just T
Drama Llama

Posts: 6,145
Jun 26, 2014 1:20:09 GMT
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Post by Just T on Aug 17, 2022 15:46:10 GMT
I will admit, when I first heard this, I thought it was awful. But after reading everyone's thoughtful responses, I still have mixed feelings. LOL I completely agree that seniority is a poor reason to keep a teacher on. I know my experience is a bit skewed as a white middle class mom in a suburban middle class area of a major city, but the worst teacher I encountered with any of my four kids in elementary school was the teacher my son had in 1st grade who was in her last year before retirement. She was truly awful, and I think she actually set the stage for my son always struggling and not liking school. Without getting too far off track, she didn't like him, she thought he was immature, and she told me that on a regular basis. My gosh, he was SIX. LOL Anyway, my youngest daughter had a teacher in her last year from retirement in her last year of elementary school (5th grade here) and she was my second least favorite teacher.
As for the race thing, again, I have mixed feelings. I think there is something to be said for children of other races having teachers and role models they can relate to. But as some of you know, my daughter is starting her first year of teaching this year in a very low income, mostly African American school. She is super gung ho (after a bit of a rocky start from being switched to a school she wasn't expecting to be at at the very last minute), and I would hate to think that she may be judged not a good enough teacher for her school merely based on her being white.
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Post by Merge on Aug 17, 2022 16:24:24 GMT
Interesting. Do you feel that way about affirmative action programs as well? I think what they're trying to achieve here is the "mix" you mention - in many public schools, the staff as a whole is overwhelmingly white and female. Affirmative action is a legal corrective to racial discrimination. If the school district here was hiring teachers for the sole reason that they’re white, then that would certainly be illegal. I’m assessing this from the specific issue of layoffs. If an employer told me, “We’re not laying you off, Liz, because you’re black” instead of basing my retention on, say, exemplary performance, then that IS pandering. How does that encourage excellence in the teaching profession? The extremely long fight of black people for civil rights has always been about fairness and equality under the law. It wasn’t about constraining the civil rights of others in pursuit of preferential treatment. Thank you for your insights. Do you think the fact that RIFs right now are currently done based on seniority and not merit changes the perspective at all? Do you think it matters that some number of the more senior white teachers retained (while newer black teachers are RIF’d) may have benefitted from racial discrimination when they were hired?
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,919
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Aug 17, 2022 16:59:52 GMT
Affirmative action is a legal corrective to racial discrimination. If the school district here was hiring teachers for the sole reason that they’re white, then that would certainly be illegal. I’m assessing this from the specific issue of layoffs. If an employer told me, “We’re not laying you off, Liz, because you’re black” instead of basing my retention on, say, exemplary performance, then that IS pandering. How does that encourage excellence in the teaching profession? The extremely long fight of black people for civil rights has always been about fairness and equality under the law. It wasn’t about constraining the civil rights of others in pursuit of preferential treatment. Thank you for your insights. Do you think the fact that RIFs right now are currently done based on seniority and not merit changes the perspective at all? Do you think it matters that some number of the more senior white teachers retained (while newer black teachers are RIF’d) may have benefitted from racial discrimination when they were hired? I already said above that I, too, think seniority is a poor basis in layoff decisions. I wouldn’t know if the more senior in this school district were hired due to racial discrimination. Maybe they were and maybe they weren’t. I have no way of knowing that. My stance is simple: Layoff/retention decisions should not be based on one’s race or skin color.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 17, 2022 17:10:59 GMT
At first glance, this doesn't sit well. However, learning more about the goals of the district and the history of hiring over the years, it makes sense. I don't think seniority should be the only criteria being looked at, and I also don't think that race should be the only criteria. Given the fact that 60 black teachers, and 30 were tenured (I am not sure if that meant 30 of the 60 black teachers were tenured, or 30 of the 250 total teachers were tenured) shows to me that those are not the only criteria that they are looking at.
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Post by SockMonkey on Aug 17, 2022 23:41:07 GMT
I'm a teacher in Illinois, and state law (SB7) dictates the reduction in force (RIF) process to some extent, with collective bargaining agreements driving the rest.
Non-tenured teachers who have not been evaluated at all and employed for one school term or less, or part-time teachers are dismissed first. EVERYONE else, tenured and non-tenured, are placed into performance groups based on their evaluation rating. Teachers with the lowest ratings are susceptible to being released first, highest rating last. Within those groups (so, say you have to release 10 teachers within the "proficient" group), ONLY then does seniority come into play, and that could be AFTER any collective bargaining agreement to determine sequence OR affirmative action plan.
For example, in my district, release order goes: part time, lowest eval, next lowest eval, next lowest eval. Within the same eval groups, multiple certifications and extracurriculars are considered (so if you sponsor or coach something that's a high need, or if you are certified in multiple areas or a high need area you can be retained). After that, only then is seniority considered. It's literally the last thing. A committee meets to go through the RIF process, and determine who is released (employees are assigned a number that's attached to a "profile" basically, so we don't know names). I sit on the committee. We have not had to RIF anyone except part time teachers in a long time, and most part time teachers are re-hired based on need.
So, in Illinois, at least, a plan like MPS's would be appropriate as long as agreed upon by the CBA, or as part of an affirmative action plan. It's outlined in the law.
So, I'd be fine with it.
I hope that helps clarify things now that the right-wing social meeds have taken four months to gather their outrage about it.
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Post by SockMonkey on Aug 17, 2022 23:45:19 GMT
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