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Post by onelasttime on Aug 29, 2022 0:22:53 GMT
52 million Americans work at jobs that pay $15 an hour or less. The vast majority of these folks did not go to college and I imagine a lot do have “crippling debt” that does not include or is student loan debt. Imagine the optics to these folks when they see the government bit by bit wipe out the debt of individuals who went to college and for most earned a degree. Individuals because of their college education have an potential earning ability these folks will never have. I understand the government can’t waive a magic want and relieve these folks of their debt but the optics, IMO, look bad. That is why I think the loans should be interest free with just a small service charge. Or knock off some of the debt if teachers, medical folks and maybe lawyers agree to work in the poorer or rural parts of the country for a couple of years after they get their degrees. Most folks who make that little don't pay federal income tax and also qualify for government aid programs like Medicaid and WIC - programs the higher-earning workers pay for with their taxes. They're also more likely to get to go to college for free, or nearly for free, using Pell grants. This whole thing about pitting the lower class against the middle class is horse shit. We all need to be looking to why the wealthiest in our society are not paying their fair share - a fair share that would allow even more robust safety net programs, free post-secondary education, and a fair healthcare system, instead of leaving the middle and lower class to turn on each other. The "optics" are only what they are because that's what certain folks want us to see. Oh I’m sure these folks take this into consideration “ Most folks who make that little don't pay federal income tax and also qualify for government aid programs like Medicaid and WIC - programs the higher-earning workers pay for with their taxes.” while they watch the government forgive thousands of dollars of debt for some college kid while many of these folks are drowning in debt. If only it was that simple to tell folks they shouldn’t feel a certain way. And to assume that folks can’t look at something and form their own opinion without other folks telling them/suggesting what they should see and feel. I’m all for the rich paying their fair share. But the reality is if and when they do there is still only going to be so much money to go around, And I’m all for safety nets but right now this country, actually the world, has a bigger problem then paying off some kids student debt or have robust safety nets. It’s water or the real potential of the lack of it. Even that wacko woman running for governor in Arizona understands the need for water in her state. Her plan is to pipe it in from the Mississippi and Missouri rivers. I’m not sure it’s feasible to do it, but if it is, it will cost a fortune using both state and federal money. And that is just one state. Gavin Newsom unveiled a plan for CA that includes recycling water and to expand water storage areas. But I’m not sure how well it’s going to work. Especially if CA keeps getting dry years with little rain and light snow in the mountains like it has been for the last several years. Whatever CA settles on its going to cost a whole bunch of money. The upshot is it’s not going to do those with student loans any good if their student debts are wiped out and they don’t have enough water to drink or if there isn’t enough food to eat because of the lack water needed to grow food. Which means government has to be smart in how they spend the money there is. I’m a amazed about how widespread these droughts are in this country and the rest of the world. I guess the signs were there but not enough people saw them or even seeing them now So we are going to disagree on this. |
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Post by Merge on Aug 29, 2022 1:32:43 GMT
Most folks who make that little don't pay federal income tax and also qualify for government aid programs like Medicaid and WIC - programs the higher-earning workers pay for with their taxes. They're also more likely to get to go to college for free, or nearly for free, using Pell grants. This whole thing about pitting the lower class against the middle class is horse shit. We all need to be looking to why the wealthiest in our society are not paying their fair share - a fair share that would allow even more robust safety net programs, free post-secondary education, and a fair healthcare system, instead of leaving the middle and lower class to turn on each other. The "optics" are only what they are because that's what certain folks want us to see. Oh I’m sure these folks take this into consideration “ Most folks who make that little don't pay federal income tax and also qualify for government aid programs like Medicaid and WIC - programs the higher-earning workers pay for with their taxes.” while they watch the government forgive thousands of dollars of debt for some college kid while many of these folks are drowning in debt. If only it was that simple to tell folks they shouldn’t feel a certain way. And to assume that folks can’t look at something and form their own opinion without other folks telling them/suggesting what they should see and feel. I’m all for the rich paying their fair share. But the reality is if and when they do there is still only going to be so much money to go around, And I’m all for safety nets but right now this country, actually the world, has a bigger problem then paying off some kids student debt or have robust safety nets. It’s water or the real potential of the lack of it. Even that wacko woman running for governor in Arizona understands the need for water in her state. Her plan is to pipe it in from the Mississippi and Missouri rivers. I’m not sure it’s feasible to do it, but if it is, it will cost a fortune using both state and federal money. And that is just one state. Gavin Newsom unveiled a plan for CA that includes recycling water and to expand water storage areas. But I’m not sure how well it’s going to work. Especially if CA keeps getting dry years with little rain and light snow in the mountains like it has been for the last several years. Whatever CA settles on its going to cost a whole bunch of money. The upshot is it’s not going to do those with student loans any good if their student debts are wiped out and they don’t have enough water to drink or if there isn’t enough food to eat because of the lack water needed to grow food. Which means government has to be smart in how they spend the money there is. I’m a amazed about how widespread these droughts are in this country and the rest of the world. I guess the signs were there but not enough people saw them or even seeing them now So we are going to disagree on this. So we can't tell people how to feel about this, while the right (and certain moderate "Democrats") are busy telling people how to feel about this. And also there are other problems in the country so sorry, we can't solve this one, despite the fact that our economy relies on an adequately educated population to solve problems like climate change and droughts. But you know, as long as we dismiss those people as "some college kid," I guess we don't really need them. I'm sure we can just import our scientists and researchers from China. Do I have it about right? Your "we are going to disagree on this" comes across as shortsighted, particularly when tagged on a long, rambling non sequitur like the one above. Just FYI. As does your contempt for the college-educated and any younger generations who have not benefited from the perfect Boomer existence that you did. |
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Post by aj2hall on Aug 29, 2022 2:21:28 GMT
52 million Americans work at jobs that pay $15 an hour or less. The vast majority of these folks did not go to college and I imagine a lot do have “crippling debt” that does not include or is student loan debt. Imagine the optics to these folks when they see the government bit by bit wipe out the debt of individuals who went to college and for most earned a degree. Individuals because of their college education have an potential earning ability these folks will never have. I understand the government can’t waive a magic want and relieve these folks of their debt but the optics, IMO, look bad. That is why I think the loans should be interest free with just a small service charge. Or knock off some of the debt if teachers, medical folks and maybe lawyers agree to work in the poorer or rural parts of the country for a couple of years after they get their degrees. Onelasttime, maybe instead of assuming how non college educated Americans actually feel about student loan forgiveness, you could try to spend a little time looking at that. According to recent polls, the majority of Americans do support some loan forgiveness. Not surprisingly, the divide is by political party and age, with younger Americans in favor and older ones opposed. But even a significant number of people without loans approve, especially if there are income limits. today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/07/14/americans-support-forgiving-10000-student-debtwww.deseret.com/2022/8/24/23320343/americans-support-student-debt-forgiveness-for-those-with-real-need-american-family-surveyThis was in June, before Biden’s plan was announced www.npr.org/2022/06/17/1104920545/poll-student-loan-forgivenesswww.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article264966309.htmlthehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/3614404-most-americans-support-student-loan-forgiveness-poll-finds/A recent national poll conducted by progressive think tank Data for Progress just before Biden’s announcement found 60 percent of 1,425 respondents agreed the federal government should eliminate all or some student loan debt for every borrower, compared to 34 percent who said the government should not forgive the loans and 6 percent who said they didn’t know. The poll was conducted Aug. 19-21 online and has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.
People are worried about the impact impact on inflation, but I think in part, that just reflects genuine concern and stress about inflation overall. Democrats need to do a better job explaining that most likely, this will not increase inflation. Unlike stimulus payments, the plan isn’t putting money in people’s bank accounts. And the loan forgiveness will be partially off-set by the restarting of payments in January. |
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Post by hopemax on Aug 29, 2022 2:48:56 GMT
I wish I could find the exact tweet, but Mike Duncan the History of Rome, and Revolutions podcaster and author… he had a tweet, and it is a key point in his writing, that prior to every Revolution there are moments when the ruling class could make small concessions to the worker class to avoid the ugliness and violence that followed. Spoiler: They usually don’t.
The effects of income inequality have played out again and again, and ignored. And as was previously stated, the ruling class pits the lower classes against each other until eventually a match gets lit. And the existing ruling class loses power, wealth, and sometimes their literal heads.
People don’t like bailing out people’s debts that were obtained through a predatory, broken system? Or paying more in taxes? I really don’t think they will like living in a revolution. I don’t know why people think you can have a stable, modern society for cheap. But that’s what has been sold for the last 40+ years. We joke about the “before times” but I can’t help thinking that we have no idea what that phrase will encompass in a generation.
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Post by onelasttime on Aug 29, 2022 4:13:30 GMT
Oh I’m sure these folks take this into consideration “ Most folks who make that little don't pay federal income tax and also qualify for government aid programs like Medicaid and WIC - programs the higher-earning workers pay for with their taxes.” while they watch the government forgive thousands of dollars of debt for some college kid while many of these folks are drowning in debt. If only it was that simple to tell folks they shouldn’t feel a certain way. And to assume that folks can’t look at something and form their own opinion without other folks telling them/suggesting what they should see and feel. I’m all for the rich paying their fair share. But the reality is if and when they do there is still only going to be so much money to go around, And I’m all for safety nets but right now this country, actually the world, has a bigger problem then paying off some kids student debt or have robust safety nets. It’s water or the real potential of the lack of it. Even that wacko woman running for governor in Arizona understands the need for water in her state. Her plan is to pipe it in from the Mississippi and Missouri rivers. I’m not sure it’s feasible to do it, but if it is, it will cost a fortune using both state and federal money. And that is just one state. Gavin Newsom unveiled a plan for CA that includes recycling water and to expand water storage areas. But I’m not sure how well it’s going to work. Especially if CA keeps getting dry years with little rain and light snow in the mountains like it has been for the last several years. Whatever CA settles on its going to cost a whole bunch of money. The upshot is it’s not going to do those with student loans any good if their student debts are wiped out and they don’t have enough water to drink or if there isn’t enough food to eat because of the lack water needed to grow food. Which means government has to be smart in how they spend the money there is. I’m a amazed about how widespread these droughts are in this country and the rest of the world. I guess the signs were there but not enough people saw them or even seeing them now So we are going to disagree on this. So we can't tell people how to feel about this, while the right (and certain moderate "Democrats") are busy telling people how to feel about this. And also there are other problems in the country so sorry, we can't solve this one, despite the fact that our economy relies on an adequately educated population to solve problems like climate change and droughts. But you know, as long as we dismiss those people as "some college kid," I guess we don't really need them. I'm sure we can just import our scientists and researchers from China. Do I have it about right? Your "we are going to disagree on this" comes across as shortsighted, particularly when tagged on a long, rambling non sequitur like the one above. Just FYI. As does your contempt for the college-educated and any younger generations who have not benefited from the perfect Boomer existence that you did. It’s my opinion that when these folks watch what is going with these debts some are properly wondering “what about us?”. That is just plain human nature that more then a few would wonder “what about us”? They just closed another homeless encampment in Oakland. It was a hazardous nightmare with fires starting all the time. Newsom told Oakland they had to close it or he would withhold $8M of money I think for the homeless. So they closed it. Last I heard they found places for some of the people living there but not all. So what about them. I mean they know what’s going on and they see the Feds forgiving all this debt while they get shoved from location to location living in horrible conditions. What about them? Ah the old Boomer thing. Yes back in the dark ages of the 1960’s it was easier to go to college. No doubt. And no doubt a college education is more important today then it was in the 1960’s. But and this is a big but, the problems facing this country today pretty much didn’t exist back in the dark ages of the 1960s. I’m all for college and if any younger members of my family drags their feet about going I’m in their face about it. Having said that and I don’t mean to sound like Gia, if it’s anyone who is shortsighted it’s you because you are so focused in on one part of a complexed picture. While I’m looking at the entire picture. Yes college is important for those who want to go, so is affordable housing, so is solving the problem of the homeless, and it’s not all about affordable housing for the homeless. I want drugs off the street. I don’t want kids to go hungry. There should be no food insecurity in this country for anyone and there are other issues that need to be addressed. But the big elephant in the room is climate change. And this all costs money and there is never is enough to go around. So choices have to be made. Besides the bad optics to some about forgiving those debts, I believe the money to wipe out the debt could have been better spent elsewhere. I think student loans should interest free with a small service charge. I think if we solve the affordable housing problem it will go a long way in lowering the costs of a college education. Because from what I read the largest expense for college is for housing and food for students who don’t live at home. I checked and at UC Berkeley the cost for a 4 year degree for a CA resident is around $167,000. Around $127,000 of that amount was for food and housing. Yes UC Berkeley is an expensive public college. But it gives you an idea what the largest expense is at college if you don’t live at home I also think junior colleges should have no tuition. And a trade school be part of the school. IMO we don’t live in a world where we can make a college education free. There is only so much money to go around and there are too many other pressing areas where the money needs to go. Which means we have to compromise and do what can be done to cut the cost of a college education. Cut the cost, not eliminate it. Personally in CA I want Newsom to spend a lot more money on fighting wildfires with more of the expensive night flying helicopters that can drop water at night. And to pay those firefighters a boat load of money for fighting those fires. And a lot of goats that will eat all the vegetation that feeds these fires. And believe me some of those fires burn in areas were only goats can go. That’s another reason I want the firefighters to get more money because somehow they manage to fight the fires in these areas. There are a lot of terrible ways to die but by wildfire has to be one of the worst. Four people died in the fire that I think is contained now up by the Oregon border. Two couples each found in their cars trying to outrun the fire and couldn’t. One was a woman who had been a fire spotter for CDF for decades. So when I say we are going to disagree on this, it’s not being shortsighted, I just feel that as important as a college education is, there are some things just as important if not more important then and with limited money available we as a country have to make choices and compromises. You see things differently then I do on this and I doubt if either of us will change our view on the subject. So it’s time to move on. And I get to ramble because I am old and cranky, will actually a lot more crankier these days. And that is one of the things we get to do is ramble. It’s written in the old person’s book under things we get to do. |
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Post by hopemax on Aug 29, 2022 5:53:29 GMT
We got action on Climate Change. It might not be good enough (it’s really not), but Congress is now on record on how far they were willing to go. The bill that passed… is it. This money was never going to fight Climate Change or homelessness or anything else you mentioned because there is not enough will.
The “big picture” isn’t simply imagining better alternatives. It has to also be realistic given the assets and liabilities we have to work with and against. IE the current electorate and the current ruling class, including the elected officials in Congress and State legislatures. As is commonly said around here… we are so screwed. The most realistic hope of getting better of both is through education. So it’s either unburden the people who recognized the value and attempted it, of 10-20K, or don’t. Don’t means those people are 10-20K closer to the homelessness you are worried about. In addition to all the other people slow walking toward it for other unaddressed reasons.
In case it isn’t clear from my previous post, I think we’re passed the point of having better choices to choose from. Not unless we get some big surprises in the elections for the rest of the decade, at least.
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Post by Merge on Aug 29, 2022 12:16:18 GMT
So we can't tell people how to feel about this, while the right (and certain moderate "Democrats") are busy telling people how to feel about this. And also there are other problems in the country so sorry, we can't solve this one, despite the fact that our economy relies on an adequately educated population to solve problems like climate change and droughts. But you know, as long as we dismiss those people as "some college kid," I guess we don't really need them. I'm sure we can just import our scientists and researchers from China. Do I have it about right? Your "we are going to disagree on this" comes across as shortsighted, particularly when tagged on a long, rambling non sequitur like the one above. Just FYI. As does your contempt for the college-educated and any younger generations who have not benefited from the perfect Boomer existence that you did. It’s my opinion that when these folks watch what is going with these debts some are properly wondering “what about us?”. That is just plain human nature that more then a few would wonder “what about us”? They just closed another homeless encampment in Oakland. It was a hazardous nightmare with fires starting all the time. Newsom told Oakland they had to close it or he would withhold $8M of money I think for the homeless. So they closed it. Last I heard they found places for some of the people living there but not all. So what about them. I mean they know what’s going on and they see the Feds forgiving all this debt while they get shoved from location to location living in horrible conditions. What about them? Ah the old Boomer thing. Yes back in the dark ages of the 1960’s it was easier to go to college. No doubt. And no doubt a college education is more important today then it was in the 1960’s. But and this is a big but, the problems facing this country today pretty much didn’t exist back in the dark ages of the 1960s. I’m all for college and if any younger members of my family drags their feet about going I’m in their face about it. Having said that and I don’t mean to sound like Gia, if it’s anyone who is shortsighted it’s you because you are so focused in on one part of a complexed picture. While I’m looking at the entire picture. Yes college is important for those who want to go, so is affordable housing, so is solving the problem of the homeless, and it’s not all about affordable housing for the homeless. I want drugs off the street. I don’t want kids to go hungry. There should be no food insecurity in this country for anyone and there are other issues that need to be addressed. But the big elephant in the room is climate change. And this all costs money and there is never is enough to go around. So choices have to be made. Besides the bad optics to some about forgiving those debts, I believe the money to wipe out the debt could have been better spent elsewhere. I think student loans should interest free with a small service charge. I think if we solve the affordable housing problem it will go a long way in lowering the costs of a college education. Because from what I read the largest expense for college is for housing and food for students who don’t live at home. I checked and at UC Berkeley the cost for a 4 year degree for a CA resident is around $167,000. Around $127,000 of that amount was for food and housing. Yes UC Berkeley is an expensive public college. But it gives you an idea what the largest expense is at college if you don’t live at home I also think junior colleges should have no tuition. And a trade school be part of the school. IMO we don’t live in a world where we can make a college education free. There is only so much money to go around and there are too many other pressing areas where the money needs to go. Which means we have to compromise and do what can be done to cut the cost of a college education. Cut the cost, not eliminate it. Personally in CA I want Newsom to spend a lot more money on fighting wildfires with more of the expensive night flying helicopters that can drop water at night. And to pay those firefighters a boat load of money for fighting those fires. And a lot of goats that will eat all the vegetation that feeds these fires. And believe me some of those fires burn in areas were only goats can go. That’s another reason I want the firefighters to get more money because somehow they manage to fight the fires in these areas. There are a lot of terrible ways to die but by wildfire has to be one of the worst. Four people died in the fire that I think is contained now up by the Oregon border. Two couples each found in their cars trying to outrun the fire and couldn’t. One was a woman who had been a fire spotter for CDF for decades. So when I say we are going to disagree on this, it’s not being shortsighted, I just feel that as important as a college education is, there are some things just as important if not more important then and with limited money available we as a country have to make choices and compromises. You see things differently then I do on this and I doubt if either of us will change our view on the subject. So it’s time to move on. And I get to ramble because I am old and cranky, will actually a lot more crankier these days. And that is one of the things we get to do is ramble. It’s written in the old person’s book under things we get to do. OK, so who will solve all the problems who need to be solved if no one can afford a college education? How will people not being able to contribute to the economy through home ownership, travel, purchasing of goods affect our GDP and tax base? How many more people will be homeless because the route to middle class lifestyle is too expensive? I feel you fail to see that this issue is part of the big picture. It's a major part of it. But because it was not a problem when you were growing up, you don't feel any urgency about addressing it. |
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by lizacreates on Aug 29, 2022 13:22:08 GMT
It’s incredible that someone who lives in a state where the median price of a single-family home is close to $900k, where median rent is over $2.5k/mo, where homelessness is at catastrophic levels, and where its income inequality is one of highest in the nation, would be grousing that federal money would be relieving student borrowers of $10k or $20k. Maybe it would behoove this Californian to instead focus on the root causes of the problems her state created for itself and grouse about the fact that billions in both federal and state money have been thrown at it without success.
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Post by onelasttime on Aug 29, 2022 15:36:22 GMT
The problem with Grassley’s whining is that he is, as are other Republicans, deliberately misleading the American People to think this act will “fuel inflation”. It won’t.
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SweetieBsMom
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by SweetieBsMom on Aug 29, 2022 17:33:33 GMT
The system is broken just like the healthcare system but no one wants to take on the job of fixing it or looking to fix it. That needs to be address first and foremost, as someone said this is nothing but a band-aid on a bullet wound. Educational costs, like healthcare costs, are astronomical. I don’t think anyone should be going bankrupt from medical or educational expenses.
I agree there’s a universal stigma that you can’t be successful if you don’t go to college. I know plenty of people who work in the trades that make a lot more money than I do and didn’t go to college (Good Lord I would be THRILLED if DS would go into a trade). I don’t think my company hires unless you have a degree and there are jobs at my company that do not need degrees IMO (but my company will also give you up to $15k to help you pay off your loans). It’s this stigma that is a contributing factor because all these kids are hearing is that they need to go to college to make something of themselves/end the cycle of poverty so in desperation they take out school loans. Most kids who take out these loans don’t know/understand how this will impact their futures. So I’m a big proponent of zero interest loans with a service fee or low interest loans. I hear stories time and again that when So and So pays back their loan in full they would have paid the principal 3x over. Makes me sick to my stomach. Give people a fighting chance.
Growing up, my Dad said “you either go into the service, take the police and/or fire exam, or go to college”. My parents were big proponents of their kids going to school. I took out loans and lived at home after I graduated, working 2 jobs to pay them off early before I got married. I saw an interview over the weekend where a woman said she was flat not paying them back. She didn’t care. And all I could think is “you will care when they garnish your wages”.
We bail out all sorts of companies despite the managers of said companies making millions upon millions in salaries and bonuses, we should be helping every day folk too. As someone said, I think we should be taxing the churches. I mean come on, the Catholic Church is the largest landowner in the world. There is no separation of church and state anymore. If there were Roe v. Wade wouldn’t have been overturned.
This is a bigger problem than forgiving some loans. Because this is not going to fix the underlying issues that no one wants to address.
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Post by aj2hall on Aug 29, 2022 20:31:29 GMT
I don't think anyone is missing the big picture. Most, if not all of us, are aware of the problems of climate change, homelessness, food insecurity, the broken health care system etc and don't need a lecture. But, I don't hear you saying we shouldn't spend this money on homelessness, climate change is a bigger problem. Or we shouldn't spend this money on feeding people, infrastructure is a bigger problem. Student loan debt is a major problem for 43 million Americans. Just because you (general you) won't benefit personally, doesn't mean that we should ignore it and spend the money on something else. Student loan debt was a campaign promise that Biden made. He's trying to deliver on that. And the Biden administration can walk and chew gum at the same time. They can forgive student loans and work on climate change. It doesn't have to be an either/ or situation, they can do both.
And I keep repeating this. Student loan forgiveness is not perfect and there's still a lot that needs to be addressed to bring down the skyrocketing costs of higher education. But, this is an important first step and will help current and future students by restructuring and reducing income based repayment.
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Post by littlemama on Aug 29, 2022 22:54:04 GMT
You know what we could do- and hear me out here- we can makr corporations and the wealthy pay their fair share of taxes. We can do away with the FICA cap on Social Security- the fact that it exists and especially how relatively low the cap is are ridiculous.
No one needs to make billions of dolalrs. No one needs to make hundreds of millions of dollars. Let's at least tax them appropriately to help the people they are victimizing to get there.
Appropriate taxation pays for loan forgiveness, Social Security, Medicare, and loads of other things we need- infrastructure, single oayer health care and so on.
We could also eliminate corporate political donations and cap personal donations. We could do away with lobbyists. Those things might make both sides actually represent their constituents.
Im not going to begrudge anyone for getting a little help. Schools have pushed that "everyone should go to college" for many many years. Loads of kids dutifully went off to college, incurred debt, and figured out it wasnt for them. Loads more dont have good paying jobs, even with a degree.
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Post by katieanna on Aug 30, 2022 17:10:38 GMT
Student loan debt was a campaign promise that Biden made. He's trying to deliver on that. And the Biden administration can walk and chew gum at the same time. They can forgive student loans and work on climate change. It doesn't have to be an either/ or situation, they can do both. can forgiven them, but they don't have to pay for them. Wouldn't it be nice if the uber-wealthy politicians and corporate giants would pool together and pay off these student loans (since many corporations demand their employees to have college degrees anyway), and leave the struggling American taxpayer out of it? As far as I'm concerned, the American taxpayer has a humungous burden on their shoulders already, which will trickle down to their children, grandchildren, and beyond. |
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Post by onelasttime on Sept 1, 2022 15:55:35 GMT
While I’m not a fan of this, now that it’s been set in motion I don’t agree with what these guys are doing. Especially since there is no doubt in my mind they are just doing to be spiteful.
From the article…
“Republicans are readying lawsuits to block Biden’s student debt plan”
From the article…
“GOP attorneys general, top lawmakers and conservative groups are discussing legal options, alleging the White House’s move to cancel student debt is illegal”
“Republican state attorneys general and other leading conservatives are exploring a slew of potential lawsuits targeting President Biden’s plan to cancel some student debt — challenges that could limit or invalidate the policy before it takes full effect.
In recent days, a number of GOP attorneys general from states including Arizona, Missouri and Texas have met privately to discuss a strategy that could see multiple cases filed in different courts around the country, according to a person familiar with their thinking who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the confidential talks.
Other influential conservatives — including Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.) and allies of the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank — are mulling their own options as they ratchet up criticism of Biden’s debt-relief plan, two additional people familiar with the matter said. And a conservative advocacy group founded by a major Trump donor said it would file a lawsuit against the policy.”
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Post by mom on Sept 1, 2022 16:55:04 GMT
While I’m not a fan of this, now that it’s been set in motion I don’t agree with what these guys are doing. Especially since there is no doubt in my mind they are just doing to be spiteful. From the article… “ Republicans are readying lawsuits to block Biden’s student debt plan” From the article… “GOP attorneys general, top lawmakers and conservative groups are discussing legal options, alleging the White House’s move to cancel student debt is illegal” “Republican state attorneys general and other leading conservatives are exploring a slew of potential lawsuits targeting President Biden’s plan to cancel some student debt — challenges that could limit or invalidate the policy before it takes full effect. In recent days, a number of GOP attorneys general from states including Arizona, Missouri and Texas have met privately to discuss a strategy that could see multiple cases filed in different courts around the country, according to a person familiar with their thinking who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the confidential talks. Other influential conservatives — including Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.) and allies of the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank — are mulling their own options as they ratchet up criticism of Biden’s debt-relief plan, two additional people familiar with the matter said. And a conservative advocacy group founded by a major Trump donor said it would file a lawsuit against the policy.” While I think it not a good look for Republicans to do this, if it is not a power granted to the President, then Im ok with them taking it to the courts. I've been reading up on this, and its not a power given to Biden. He has to go through Congress. Here's an article I read that was written by Mark Kantrowitz - he's an expert on college loans. He walks you through why Biden can't do this. thecollegeinvestor.com/35892/is-student-loan-forgiveness-by-executive-order-legal/ |
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Post by aj2hall on Sept 1, 2022 17:07:22 GMT
Republicans should use caution. Trying to take away something that the Biden administration approved is not a good look for them. Overturning Roe v Wade has not been the win that they hoped for and expected. Other attorney generals disagree and believe Biden has the authority under the Higher Education bill of 1964. I'm fairly certain Biden would not have taken the step without solid legal ground. Republicans can challenge it and may even win in court. But there are solid legal arguments that he does have the authority. www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2022/05/04/biden-has-power-to-cancel-student-loans-for-every-federal-borrower-attorneys-general-say/?sh=16d20145c1a8The Justice Department issued a 25 page memo justifying cancellation www.justice.gov/olc/file/1528451/downloadalso this www.nytimes.com/2022/08/31/opinion/could-the-courts-block-bidens-student-loan-relief-plan.html
The Biden administration claims that its authority to wipe out hundreds of billions of dollars in federal student loan debt derives from a 2003 law called the Heroes Act. Enacted during the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the law gives the secretary of Education the power to “waive or modify any statutory or regulatory provision applicable to the student financial assistance programs” during a national emergency if, among other reasons, the secretary believes that doing so is necessary to ensure that borrowers are “not placed in a worse position financially” because of that emergency.
Citing the national emergency that was declared for Covid-19 in March 2020, the Trump administration invoked the Heroes Act to extend a pause on student loan payments and interest accrual through the end of January 2021, which the Biden administration further extended through the end of 2022. Biden has also used the law to forgive smaller amounts of debt for more targeted demographics, including permanently disabled people, people who were defrauded by failed for-profit schools and soldiers deployed to war zones.
The Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, which provides legal advice to the executive branch, concurred in a separate opinion, concluding that “reducing or canceling the principal balances of student loans, including for a broad class of borrowers who the secretary determines suffered financial harm because of Covid-19, could be a permissible response to the Covid-19 pandemic.”
Before the Biden administration has to prepare to defend itself in court, opponents of debt cancellation will have to settle the question of who has standing to sue.
According to a recent Virginia Law Review article, the answer might be no one. To have standing, a party would have to prove that mass cancellation harmed them in a direct, concrete way and show how blocking cancellation would redress that harm. |
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,919
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Post by lizacreates on Sept 1, 2022 18:44:06 GMT
The Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, which provides legal advice to the executive branch, concurred in a separate opinion, concluding that “reducing or canceling the principal balances of student loans, including for a broad class of borrowers who the secretary determines suffered financial harm because of Covid-19, could be a permissible response to the Covid-19 pandemic.”
I suppose. But Biden didn’t need the pandemic or the HEROES Act to do this. The law already gives the Dept of Education the authority to “release any right, title, claim, lien, or demand, however acquired, including any equity or any right of redemption.” |
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lindas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,488
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Post by lindas on Sept 1, 2022 19:38:26 GMT
The Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, which provides legal advice to the executive branch, concurred in a separate opinion, concluding that “reducing or canceling the principal balances of student loans, including for a broad class of borrowers who the secretary determines suffered financial harm because of Covid-19, could be a permissible response to the Covid-19 pandemic.”
Student loan repayment has been on hold since March of 2020 and will remain on hold until the end of the year so what financial harm has been caused?
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Post by aj2hall on Sept 1, 2022 21:08:45 GMT
Excellent description of what the Republican Party is doing. Any election that they don't win, any action by the Biden Administration and any policy that they disagree with, is automatically "illegitimate" www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/01/michigan-abortion-initiative-republican-attack-on-democracy/There’s a fundamental idea at the heart of democracy, a bargain we all tacitly agree to. We hold elections. One side wins. That side tries, usually with only partial success, to implement its favored policies. The other side, now in opposition, does its best to convince people that we ought to reverse course. After a while, the public gets to weigh in again, either keeping the ruling party in power or giving the opposition a chance.
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But like children crying “No fair!” every time they lose at a game, the Republican Party has decided that any outcome democracy produces that it does not like — an election won by a Democrat, a policy decision made by a Democratic administration — is illegitimate by definition. And with each passing week, it’s coming up with new, and sometimes shocking, ways to reject this foundational bargain.
It doesn’t stop with elections; the default Republican response to legislation passed by a Democratic Congress or a policy decision made by a Democratic president is now to file lawsuits seeking to have the courts — which have been stacked with partisan Republican hacks — strike them down. Republicans are already preparing lawsuits against President Biden’s decision to forgive some student loans, in the hope that the right judges, and ultimately the Supreme Court, will find some ridiculous excuse to quash it.
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Post by aj2hall on Sept 1, 2022 21:10:11 GMT
The Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, which provides legal advice to the executive branch, concurred in a separate opinion, concluding that “reducing or canceling the principal balances of student loans, including for a broad class of borrowers who the secretary determines suffered financial harm because of Covid-19, could be a permissible response to the Covid-19 pandemic.”Student loan repayment has been on hold since March of 2020 and will remain on hold until the end of the year so what financial harm has been caused? Financial harm - loss of a job due to the pandemic, especially for borrowers who did not complete their degree, difficulty finding a job for 2020 graduates etc. |
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Post by aj2hall on Sept 1, 2022 21:27:05 GMT
I think it's important to note that part of the reason so many Americans have burdensome student loan debt is the near impossibility of having that debt discharged in bankruptcy due to a law that the Republicans passed in 2005. First, Republicans prevented borrowers from discharging debt through bankruptcy (even though their fearless leader declared bankruptcy 6 times) and now they want to prevent the government from forgiving a small portion of those loans. Admittedly, Biden also voted for that bill, but he is trying to fix that. The current path is not sustainable. 1 million borrowers default every year and by 2023, nearly 40% of student loan borrowers are expected to default. www.cnbc.com/2018/08/13/twenty-two-percent-of-student-loan-borrowers-fall-into-default.html |
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lindas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,488
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Post by lindas on Sept 2, 2022 1:49:44 GMT
The Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, which provides legal advice to the executive branch, concurred in a separate opinion, concluding that “reducing or canceling the principal balances of student loans, including for a broad class of borrowers who the secretary determines suffered financial harm because of Covid-19, could be a permissible response to the Covid-19 pandemic.”Student loan repayment has been on hold since March of 2020 and will remain on hold until the end of the year so what financial harm has been caused? Financial harm - loss of a job due to the pandemic, especially for borrowers who did not complete their degree, difficulty finding a job for 2020 graduates etc. Those things could happen to anyone at anytime. The fact that they haven’t had to pay on these loans for almost 3 yrs has not caused them financial harm. As far as finding a job, unemployment is supposedly at an all time low so finding a job shouldn’t be that difficult. What about landlords that went without rent for months? They certainly suffered financial harm. Mortgage bailouts have ended and foreclosures are up 67%. I’m sure they’d like to get $10000 to help save their homes. Sorry, but I am a adamantly opposed to this. It does nothing to fix the problem. |
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Post by aj2hall on Sept 2, 2022 2:02:16 GMT
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,919
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Post by lizacreates on Sept 2, 2022 19:07:18 GMT
the default Republican response to legislation passed by a Democratic Congress or a policy decision made by a Democratic president is now to file lawsuits seeking to have the courts — which have been stacked with partisan Republican hacks — strike them down. Republicans are already preparing lawsuits against President Biden’s decision to forgive some student loans, in the hope that the right judges, and ultimately the Supreme Court, will find some ridiculous excuse to quash it.
In all fairness we do the same thing. We did it all throughout Trump’s tenure. I am baffled by this whole thing. As much as I’m in favor of the loan forgiveness, I'm sorry, but I think they may have a point. The waiver authority provided by HEROES is sufficient to implement the payment pause and interest waiver; hence no challenge to Biden's earlier targeted forgiveness. But it is highly questionable in the present broad-based loan forgiveness because the basis of HEROES is to relieve the burden of costs during a war or emergency. There was no burden during COVID because payments were paused and interest was waived. If the relief was premised on hardship as a result of the pandemic, then the testing should have been different (e.g., job loss due to COVID illness, lockdowns, etc), not the generalized means-testing. The reason I’m baffled is because I don’t understand why they chose this. I can only assume Biden’s legal team knows something crucial and that’s why they invoked it. I mean, if you just look at the SC’s ruling in the CDC rent moratorium, it’s already a clear indication that the pandemic isn’t sufficient reason for an unprecedented or novel administrative regulation. Definitely not a winner in conservative courts. So, why use HEROES? Why would you even be searching for a needle in a haystack when there’s already something readily at your disposal? Congress is the body that enumerated the powers of the Secretary of the Dept of Education. Look at 20 USC Sec 1082(a)(6). "(a) GENERAL POWERS In the performance of, and with respect to, the functions, powers, and duties, vested in him by this part, the Secretary may— (6) enforce, pay, compromise, waive, or release any right, title, claim, lien, or demand, however acquired, including any equity or any right of redemption." The authority is already in the Higher Education Act, specifically section 432a. Why didn’t they use that instead?I'm thinking the attorneys general could argue broad-based forgiveness was not Congress’ intent in 1082, neither implicitly nor explicitly, but how does one exactly prove that? They could argue the major questions doctrine that no agency can devise a rule or regulation on anything major that has a significant impact without express authorization by Congress. (That’s how the EPA’s plan to shift the grid to low emissions sources was knocked down.) BUT, my inference from a plain reading of 1082 is that the Secretary WAS given the authority by Congress. If Congress wanted to limit the Sec's authority only to narrowly-tailored dispositions, wouldn't they have said so in the legislation? ?? I really don’t know how this is all going to pan out. It’ll be a great disappointment to millions if this collapses and it’ll do our party considerable damage. (As to a plaintiff who can claim standing, they’ll find someone, maybe a loan servicer?) |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Sept 2, 2022 20:32:53 GMT
Not all states processed the monies for landlords and tenants. NJ doesn't even know who got what until they get checks back. BTW: They admit that know they sent checks to wrong address. That helps no one now. I just read an article. I'll try to find it. Some N.J. rent assistance payments have gone missing, frustrating tenants and landlords Updated: Jul. 13, 2022, 12:16 p.m.|Published: Jul. 12, 2022, 10:30 a.m. But as the months passed, no payments arrived. When he called for an update, he said Community Affairs confirmed the checks were mailed. After being told it would take 60 to 90 days to investigate, Community Affairs “found that the check was sent to an entirely different leasing office that neither me nor my landlord had provided,” he said. My landlord is still seeking for me to be removed for non-payment,” said Capers, who noted that while he’s back to work and can pay current rent, he can’t catch up on missed payments without the assistance program he was counting on. more at link www.nj.com/news/2022/07/some-nj-rent-assistance-payments-have-gone-missing-frustrating-tenants-and-landlords.html |
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lindas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,488
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Post by lindas on Sept 2, 2022 21:29:24 GMT
Not all states processed the monies for landlords and tenants. NJ doesn't even know who got what until they get checks back. BTW: They admit that know they sent checks to wrong address. That helps no one now. I just read an article. I'll try to find it. Some N.J. rent assistance payments have gone missing, frustrating tenants and landlords Updated: Jul. 13, 2022, 12:16 p.m.|Published: Jul. 12, 2022, 10:30 a.m. But as the months passed, no payments arrived. When he called for an update, he said Community Affairs confirmed the checks were mailed. After being told it would take 60 to 90 days to investigate, Community Affairs “found that the check was sent to an entirely different leasing office that neither me nor my landlord had provided,” he said. My landlord is still seeking for me to be removed for non-payment,” said Capers, who noted that while he’s back to work and can pay current rent, he can’t catch up on missed payments without the assistance program he was counting on. more at link www.nj.com/news/2022/07/some-nj-rent-assistance-payments-have-gone-missing-frustrating-tenants-and-landlords.htmlDisgusting. How many more landlords and tenants throughout the country are suffering the same problem due to complete and total mismanagement by both federal and state governments. Of course they’ll blame the pandemic, being short-staffed, the tenant and/or landlord gave a wrong address, just a few excuses that will be used. The amount of money the feds (and the states) appropriated with no oversight during the pandemic is sickening. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Sept 2, 2022 21:40:00 GMT
Agreed... But far worse is the millions of Medicaid millions that went to Brett Favre in Mississippi... (he has paid back some)
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Post by Merge on Sept 2, 2022 21:52:20 GMT
I’m not particularly swayed by the red herring arguments against opposing loan forgiveness because there are other areas that need financial attention as well, but since we’re on that topic, Greg Abbott has spent $12M in taxpayer money (that we know of, so far) to give immigrants free bus rides to major US cities. Where is the right-wing outrage? I would also like a free trip to Chicago, NY, or DC! www.texastribune.org/2022/08/31/texas-12-million-migrant-busing-program/ |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Sept 2, 2022 21:59:21 GMT
Bus fare alone is upwards of $1400 per person....
Thing is Democrats try to help.
Republicans try to punish..
Who has values, empathy, caring...
Who are the practicing Christians...
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lindas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,488
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Post by lindas on Sept 2, 2022 22:12:01 GMT
I’m not particularly swayed by the red herring arguments against opposing loan forgiveness because there are other areas that need financial attention as well, but since we’re on that topic, Greg Abbott has spent $12M in taxpayer money (that we know of, so far) to give immigrants free bus rides to major US cities. Where is the right-wing outrage? I would also like a free trip to Chicago, NY, or DC! www.texastribune.org/2022/08/31/texas-12-million-migrant-busing-program/No outrage here. Wouldn’t bother me if CA was sending immigrants to red states. Texas alone should not have to bare the burden of thousands of people crossing our border, all the states should do their fair share. |
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