J u l e e
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,531
Location: Cincinnati
Jun 28, 2014 2:50:47 GMT
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Post by J u l e e on Oct 11, 2022 11:52:15 GMT
You know what truly stuns in this thread? The grace and compassion toward someone whose actions deeply affected her. jeremysgirl, you have done something the OP didn’t stop to consider herself. Grace and compassion for others. It humbles the righteous. You are first class, friend.
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Post by Really Red on Oct 11, 2022 12:36:53 GMT
I am educated on the facts. I read the entire story. There remains nothing in this universe that would convince me that a 23 year-old should be euthanized who is not suffering from a painful, fatal disease. There are tens of thousands of people who have suffered traumatic events and gone on to live happy and useful lives. Think Holocaust victims. Or thousands of others. Life is precious. She was far too young to make such a choice. So, technically I agreed with you until you mentioned other people. That has nothing to do with this one 23yo girl. You simply cannot compare people's mental illnesses and traumas they have lived through to anyone else. Someone who lived through the Holocaust, too! What I agree with is that we shouldn't think of a 23yo's future as hopeless. We should find tools and hopes to get her in a better place. It makes me so very sad that her choice is living with her horror or dying. I'd like that to be the story. Not that others can manage so why couldn't she. I hope you see it that way, too snowsilver because otherwise we'd be comparing people for time eternity and everyone would come up short, I imagine. As always, and speaking from a place of devastating sadness, I think we need to do more for mental illness. p.s. I am aware of the rigorous process anyone needs to choose this path. It was not done lightly.
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Post by Really Red on Oct 11, 2022 12:38:02 GMT
I have no issue with this and wish the option was more widely available. I don’t see mental health as less than or different from physical health. It’s not as if this available on a whim. I have incurable cancer and the fact that I’m going to be subjecting myself and my family to what’s likely to be a very ugly ending to my life weighs on me. I feel like I and others deserve a death with dignity. Many, many hugs to you. I support you and I think you are right.
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Post by melanell on Oct 11, 2022 13:00:52 GMT
I’m thankful that this woman had the option to leave this life peacefully and gently. I’m sure it would have been incredibly difficult for her loved ones, but at least it spared them the trauma of finding her when she inevitably took her own life some other way. This is exactly what I was thinking. We lost two friends in the past two years. One threw himself off a building and another hung himself. In both cases, family and friends are forever damaged from the trauma caused by finding them. Without getting into too much detail, someone in our family hung themselves many years ago. One of their children found them. They had several children, some grown, & some still home & in high school, and it was one of the younger ones who found them. They had been suffering depression for years. Life had been a struggle for them for many years. But ending their life in a manner was awful for all involved. I am sure it was difficult for them to have to die alone in such a way. And it tore their children apart. A family once close all went their separate ways after years of fighting amongst themselves. Had something like this been available, the kids could have been prepared for it. They could have gathered together to be with their parent in their last moments. Things could have been settled beforehand, and hopefully that would have helped to prevent the breakdown of the family. And it certainly would have saved them the trauma of how their parent died., and for the one child, finding them like that.
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Post by epeanymous on Oct 11, 2022 13:15:40 GMT
I am educated on the facts. I read the entire story. There remains nothing in this universe that would convince me that a 23 year-old should be euthanized who is not suffering from a painful, fatal disease. There are tens of thousands of people who have suffered traumatic events and gone on to live happy and useful lives. Think Holocaust victims. Or thousands of others. Life is precious. She was far too young to make such a choice. One of the reasons it upset me so much when a school district banned Maus was because Maus doesn't gloss over how surviving a traumatic event affects your life and the lives of everyone around you. The author based the books on his own parents' story; the books have one happy ending, where the parents reunite after each surviving Auschwitz, but you also see what happened in the years to follow. His mother died by suicide.
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Post by smalltowngirlie on Oct 11, 2022 13:52:31 GMT
This is exactly what I was thinking. We lost two friends in the past two years. One threw himself off a building and another hung himself. In both cases, family and friends are forever damaged from the trauma caused by finding them. Without getting into too much detail, someone in our family hung themselves many years ago. One of their children found them. They had several children, some grown, & some still home & in high school, and it was one of the younger ones who found them. They had been suffering depression for years. Life had been a struggle for them for many years. But ending their life in a manner was awful for all involved. I am sure it was difficult for them to have to die alone in such a way. And it tore their children apart. A family once close all went their separate ways after years of fighting amongst themselves. Had something like this been available, the kids could have been prepared for it. They could have gathered together to be with their parent in their last moments. Things could have been settled beforehand, and hopefully that would have helped to prevent the breakdown of the family. And it certainly would have saved them the trauma of how their parent died., and for the one child, finding them like that. I really wonder about this and I am not going to be able to explain myself clearly. Imagine the feelings of the younger children wondering why their parent felt they could leave why they were so young. The parent making a conscious decision and discussing it with everyone. Maybe that younger child would feel selfish and want their parent around a bit longer. Even knowing what the parent is going through, no matter what they are losing a parent. They could say to the older siblings, well Dad was at your graduation and chose not to be there for me. Imagine that younger child trying to convince their parent to stay for them and the parent saying no. There is no good outcome, the children are going to be traumatized. Some will be able to work through it, others may not. And I am sorry if I am not explaining myself clearly. One of the requirements was the person had to - the patient must be mentally competent to make the decision;, I would question if someone suffering that much is mentally competent, but the same can be said for someone suffering with a physical illness. I am really torn on this subject. Overall, I wish no one suffering from mental illness would ever feel that ending their life was the best option. I have never been in this position, so cannot judge others for their choices. I may not agree with it (and not saying I am or am not), but it is their choice to make.
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Post by cindosha on Oct 11, 2022 14:23:30 GMT
So cindosha how do you feel about dying with dignity, assisted suicide in cases of people who are terminally ill or suffering with a terrible illness, be that mental or physical? I’m interested why you asked me that question.
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Post by gar on Oct 11, 2022 14:28:39 GMT
So cindosha how do you feel about dying with dignity, assisted suicide in cases of people who are terminally ill or suffering with a terrible illness, be that mental or physical? I’m interested why you asked me that question. I just asked to try and get the conversation back onto the subject of the OP’s post rather than letting it dissolve into political sniping.
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Post by femalebusiness on Oct 11, 2022 14:29:22 GMT
Another disgusting post by the control freak who thinks she has absolute right to decide for others what they do with their own lives/bodies. Disgusting and mentally sick. Wait, what? You mean like forced vaccinations??? You dumb fuck. No one is forcing you to be vaccinated.
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Post by myshelly on Oct 11, 2022 14:48:58 GMT
So cindosha how do you feel about dying with dignity, assisted suicide in cases of people who are terminally ill or suffering with a terrible illness, be that mental or physical? I’m interested why you asked me that question. Beeecausse that’s literally the actual subject of this entire thread?
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,983
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Oct 11, 2022 15:18:26 GMT
I am educated on the facts. I read the entire story. There remains nothing in this universe that would convince me that a 23 year-old should be euthanized who is not suffering from a painful, fatal disease. There are tens of thousands of people who have suffered traumatic events and gone on to live happy and useful lives. Think Holocaust victims. Or thousands of others. Life is precious. She was far too young to make such a choice. This post made me physically ill. How dare you presume someone else's ability to recover from a traumatic event? I think this might be one of cruelest, smuggest, most insensitive posts I have read on this board.
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Post by cindosha on Oct 11, 2022 15:27:40 GMT
Wait, what? You mean like forced vaccinations??? You dumb fuck. No one is forcing you to be vaccinated. Oh yes we were! Or lose our jobs. That is forced vax. And don’t give me the bullshit that I could’ve quit my job if I didn’t want to get vaxed. That’s bullshit and you know it’s bullshit. Thousands of people lost their jobs because they refuse to get vaccinated. That is called forced vaccination. And if you argue that then you’re just as dumb as you think I am.
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Post by catmom on Oct 11, 2022 15:30:12 GMT
So am I to understand from this thread that the US doesn’t have any sort of medically assisted death laws in place? None at all? I don’t know why but I didn’t realize that.
I can’t explain why, but somehow the fact that her suffering was from a traumatic event seems even more heartbreaking. Because trauma treatment has improved in n the past few years, I guess I naively assumed that all trauma is now treatable and “recoverable”. Clearly I was wrong.
Canada has medically assisted death laws which currently include only physical, fatal illnesses. Next year it is expected to expand to include mental illness and long term illness that causes suffering.
It’s super complex. I’m for dying with dignity and would take that option if I was faced with an illness and death like my mother faced. But as I’ve been learning more about it, it’s so tricky to get the law right. And even then, people who don’t have resources might be at higher risk of wanting to use MAiD because they don’t have access to treatment or quality of life options that others have.
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Post by cindosha on Oct 11, 2022 15:31:35 GMT
I’m interested why you asked me that question. Beeecausse that’s literally the actual subject of this entire thread? I was simply responding to the “my body my choice” post by that female biz chick.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 11, 2022 15:51:26 GMT
So am I to understand from this thread that the US doesn’t have any sort of medically assisted death laws in place? None at all? I don’t know why but I didn’t realize that. I can’t explain why, but somehow the fact that her suffering was from a traumatic event seems even more heartbreaking. Because trauma treatment has improved in n the past few years, I guess I naively assumed that all trauma is now treatable and “recoverable”. Clearly I was wrong. Canada has medically assisted death laws which currently include only physical, fatal illnesses. Next year it is expected to expand to include mental illness and long term illness that causes suffering. It’s super complex. I’m for dying with dignity and would take that option if I was faced with an illness and death like my mother faced. But as I’ve been learning more about it, it’s so tricky to get the law right. And even then, people who don’t have resources might be at higher risk of wanting to use MAiD because they don’t have access to treatment or quality of life options that others have. It is a state by state decision. I think Oregon was the first. New Jersey has passed one a few years ago, but I think it is in the courts right now. I have a living will, a DNR as well as a DNI. It is in writing, let me go.
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Post by cindosha on Oct 11, 2022 15:59:23 GMT
So am I to understand from this thread that the US doesn’t have any sort of medically assisted death laws in place? None at all? I don’t know why but I didn’t realize that. I can’t explain why, but somehow the fact that her suffering was from a traumatic event seems even more heartbreaking. Because trauma treatment has improved in n the past few years, I guess I naively assumed that all trauma is now treatable and “recoverable”. Clearly I was wrong. Canada has medically assisted death laws which currently include only physical, fatal illnesses. Next year it is expected to expand to include mental illness and long term illness that causes suffering. It’s super complex. I’m for dying with dignity and would take that option if I was faced with an illness and death like my mother faced. But as I’ve been learning more about it, it’s so tricky to get the law right. And even then, people who don’t have resources might be at higher risk of wanting to use MAiD because they don’t have access to treatment or quality of life options that others have. It is a state by state decision. I think Oregon was the first. New Jersey has passed one a few years ago, but I think it is in the courts right now. I have a living will, a DNR as well as a DNI. It is in writing, let me go. Jack Kevorkian was a big proponent of assisted suicide but was arrested after assisting a number of people in this procedure. He had it right!!
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Post by femalebusiness on Oct 11, 2022 16:06:06 GMT
You dumb fuck. No one is forcing you to be vaccinated. Oh yes we were! Or lose our jobs. That is forced vax. And don’t give me the bullshit that I could’ve quit my job if I didn’t want to get vaxed. That’s bullshit and you know it’s bullshit. Thousands of people lost their jobs because they refuse to get vaccinated. That is called forced vaccination. And if you argue that then you’re just as dumb as you think I am. You had a choice. Just because you didn't like it too damned bad.
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,983
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Oct 11, 2022 16:07:27 GMT
So am I to understand from this thread that the US doesn’t have any sort of medically assisted death laws in place? None at all? I don’t know why but I didn’t realize that. I can’t explain why, but somehow the fact that her suffering was from a traumatic event seems even more heartbreaking. Because trauma treatment has improved in n the past few years, I guess I naively assumed that all trauma is now treatable and “recoverable”. Clearly I was wrong. Canada has medically assisted death laws which currently include only physical, fatal illnesses. Next year it is expected to expand to include mental illness and long term illness that causes suffering. It’s super complex. I’m for dying with dignity and would take that option if I was faced with an illness and death like my mother faced. But as I’ve been learning more about it, it’s so tricky to get the law right. And even then, people who don’t have resources might be at higher risk of wanting to use MAiD because they don’t have access to treatment or quality of life options that others have. Trauma treatment may have improved over the last few years and I have no idea how good the mental health system is in Belgium but here in the US. there are huge barriers to getting access to even mediocre mental health treatment. The waiting lists are often months long and that's just to talk to a LCSW, let alone to get an appointment with someone allowed to prescribe meds or who has had specialized training in one of the recognized methods to treat trauma. I don't know if you've seen the meme floating around which has Republicans saying "we don't need gun control in America, we need better mental health treatment." Okay, here is a bill to increase funding for mental health care to which the response from Rs is always "no, not that either."
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Oct 11, 2022 17:43:58 GMT
So cindosha how do you feel about dying with dignity, assisted suicide in cases of people who are terminally ill or suffering with a terrible illness, be that mental or physical? I’m interested why you asked me that question. Because it was the point of the thread? You must have missed that while you were scrambling to malign the evil libs.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Oct 11, 2022 18:16:05 GMT
I believe in bodily autonomy and support the right of every being to leave this world with dignity and comfort.
The idea of suffering as some kind of test or glory is deeply rooted in religion, IMO, as is the objection to allowing adults to make the choice to end that suffering.
The documentary, "How to Die in Oregon", should be required watching for us all.
The process of obtaining approval for this process is thorough. This 23 year old woman did not wake up one day and get a prescription for euthanasia on a whim.
She, and her medical team, felt that this was a choice she was capable of making. I am beyond saddened at the suffering this young woman endured, and grateful that I don't understand her pain on a personal level.
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Post by compeateropeator on Oct 11, 2022 18:22:49 GMT
So am I to understand from this thread that the US doesn’t have any sort of medically assisted death laws in place? None at all? I don’t know why but I didn’t realize that. I can’t explain why, but somehow the fact that her suffering was from a traumatic event seems even more heartbreaking. Because trauma treatment has improved in n the past few years, I guess I naively assumed that all trauma is now treatable and “recoverable”. Clearly I was wrong. Canada has medically assisted death laws which currently include only physical, fatal illnesses. Next year it is expected to expand to include mental illness and long term illness that causes suffering. It’s super complex. I’m for dying with dignity and would take that option if I was faced with an illness and death like my mother faced. But as I’ve been learning more about it, it’s so tricky to get the law right. And even then, people who don’t have resources might be at higher risk of wanting to use MAiD because they don’t have access to treatment or quality of life options that others have. It is a state by state decision. I think Oregon was the first. New Jersey has passed one a few years ago, but I think it is in the courts right now. I have a living will, a DNR as well as a DNI. It is in writing, let me go. There are like 10 states that have death with dignity laws I think. I know that my state, Vermont, is one.
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Post by mom on Oct 11, 2022 18:26:59 GMT
I view medically assisted suicide much like I view abortion: its probably not for me, but if you are certain that is a choice you want to make, them go and do so with my support. It isn't a choice I would want my loved one to make, but I have to believe that as adults who are able to make their own medical decisions, then they have thought this through and are doing what is best for them.
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Post by papersilly on Oct 11, 2022 18:36:49 GMT
So am I to understand from this thread that the US doesn’t have any sort of medically assisted death laws in place? None at all? I don’t know why but I didn’t realize that. california is among the states who have it. the tech who has performed my mammogram for years has first hand experience with this. her husband had throat cancer. she accompanied him when he went to see his doctors about this. the way she explained it, it wasn't a difficult process. the doctors and hospital were very thorough with his evaluation and eligibility. they were also very compassionate. when the time came, he was surrounded by his loved ones and he left peacefully. i remember how grateful his wife was that he had the choice to do this before the disease truly ravaged him. i'm so glad we have this and i hope they expand it to those who cannot physically administer the medications to themselves.
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pinklady
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,563
Nov 14, 2016 23:47:03 GMT
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Post by pinklady on Oct 11, 2022 18:50:42 GMT
She can have her opinion and I can have my opinion that she is a hypocritical vile human being who values her precious AR-15 more than any life. Her fucked up statement that “life is precious” all while being a whacked out republican who doesn’t give a shit about any life that ended in gun violence is vomit inducing. And no, I’m not going to “be better” to this cult member who doesn’t think MY rights matter. Also, in case you are new here, that woman has a 20 year history of posting her evil opinions. So let me get this straight, she’s not allowed to have an opinion, let alone VOICE her OWN opinion because YOU don’t like her political choices? YOU, my dear (and I say dear with as much sarcasm as I can muster) are the absolute epitome of a crazed far left liberal. Her opinions are not YOUR opinion, so destroy, destroy, destroy!!! I hope you get some mental health help so you aren’t as miserable in your life as you project yourself to be here on this board. You’re going to stroke out with all of your anger against anyone whose political views don’t match yours. You colossal ignoramus, my first words were "She can have her opinion".
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Post by hop2 on Oct 11, 2022 19:22:57 GMT
I was going to write a response. But I just can't. I'm so sorry. I have the right to decide when my life ends, even though it may hurt my loved ones. Hugs
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Post by hop2 on Oct 11, 2022 19:28:02 GMT
I have no issue with this and wish the option was more widely available. I don’t see mental health as less than or different from physical health. It’s not as if this available on a whim. I have incurable cancer and the fact that I’m going to be subjecting myself and my family to what’s likely to be a very ugly ending to my life weighs on me. I feel like I and others deserve a death with dignity. I am sorry you have to deal with that. I agree completely with what you said. It has to be each person choice wether to fight for each & ever breath or to be able to end it with dignity is an incredibly personal choice that no other human can make for you.
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Post by julieinsweden on Oct 11, 2022 20:15:06 GMT
I’m thankful that this woman had the option to leave this life peacefully and gently. I’m sure it would have been incredibly difficult for her loved ones, but at least it spared them the trauma of finding her when she inevitably took her own life some other way. Assiemeg put it so eloquently.
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Post by melanell on Oct 11, 2022 21:35:35 GMT
Without getting into too much detail, someone in our family hung themselves many years ago. One of their children found them. They had several children, some grown, & some still home & in high school, and it was one of the younger ones who found them. They had been suffering depression for years. Life had been a struggle for them for many years. But ending their life in a manner was awful for all involved. I am sure it was difficult for them to have to die alone in such a way. And it tore their children apart. A family once close all went their separate ways after years of fighting amongst themselves. Had something like this been available, the kids could have been prepared for it. They could have gathered together to be with their parent in their last moments. Things could have been settled beforehand, and hopefully that would have helped to prevent the breakdown of the family. And it certainly would have saved them the trauma of how their parent died., and for the one child, finding them like that. I really wonder about this and I am not going to be able to explain myself clearly. Imagine the feelings of the younger children wondering why their parent felt they could leave why they were so young. The parent making a conscious decision and discussing it with everyone. Maybe that younger child would feel selfish and want their parent around a bit longer. Even knowing what the parent is going through, no matter what they are losing a parent. They could say to the older siblings, well Dad was at your graduation and chose not to be there for me. Imagine that younger child trying to convince their parent to stay for them and the parent saying no. There is no good outcome, the children are going to be traumatized. Some will be able to work through it, others may not. And I am sorry if I am not explaining myself clearly. I do understand what you are saying, and there's just no way to ever really know how things would have played out if a different life choice had been made, especially one like this. I just know all of the negative outcomes of how things did go. And so it's hard for me to not look at ways in which it could have been better, even from just the practicalities of having doctors & therapists involved involved who may have been able to guide the family through the situation to some degree.
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Post by papersilly on Oct 11, 2022 22:22:02 GMT
in difficult situations, we are enveloped in the woulda coulda shouldas. the thing is, the woulda, coulda, shouldas don't really exist. only the now exists. how is the person now? what does the person want or need now? we can speculate all we want on what could be but it will never be until is simply is. for some people, they don't want to stick around for the woulda, coulda, shoulda days. they are not long for this world and they need to be supported if they need a compassionate exit. a person should not be forced into a woulda, coulda, shoulda because people can't accept what it really is. uggh, i'm sorry, i'm just rambling but it's hard to get my thoughts across.
for me, it's simple. your right to death is as valid and as important as your right to life. no one should force you to believe otherwise. there is nothing to fear in death. there is no shame. there should be no judgement. death can be a respite. for some, a peaceful and dignified death is the woulda, coulda, shoulda scenario that should be.
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Post by scraplette on Oct 11, 2022 22:32:44 GMT
I am educated on the facts. I read the entire story. There remains nothing in this universe that would convince me that a 23 year-old should be euthanized who is not suffering from a painful, fatal disease. There are tens of thousands of people who have suffered traumatic events and gone on to live happy and useful lives. Think Holocaust victims. Or thousands of others. Life is precious. She was far too young to make such a choice. One of the reasons it upset me so much when a school district banned Maus was because Maus doesn't gloss over how surviving a traumatic event affects your life and the lives of everyone around you. The author based the books on his own parents' story; the books have one happy ending, where the parents reunite after each surviving Auschwitz, but you also see what happened in the years to follow. His mother died by suicide. Good reference. My first thought was of the surviving Uvalde classmates and the care they need. They aren’t even old enough to have the coping skills of a typical 17 year old.
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