nicolep
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,080
Jan 26, 2016 16:10:43 GMT
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Post by nicolep on Feb 16, 2023 2:54:22 GMT
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Feb 16, 2023 6:38:33 GMT
Not that I like the content, thanks for posting the article.
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wellway
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,759
Jun 25, 2014 20:50:09 GMT
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Post by wellway on Feb 16, 2023 10:35:00 GMT
I see the rail firm have pulled out of the public meeting. BBC Representatives of the Norfolk Southern railway company, whose train carrying the chemicals derailed 13 days ago causing a huge fire, cited security concerns. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64659795Gee, if only there was a way to be in a room and answer questions without being physically in the room /s. Zoom call anyone??
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casii
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,461
Jun 29, 2014 14:40:44 GMT
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Post by casii on Feb 16, 2023 12:19:51 GMT
Check out who are the top shareholders of Norfolk Southern. Makes me wonder how those safety measures got rolled back, conjecture on my part. Vanguard, Blackrock, JP Morgan, big hitters. Top Shareholders
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lindas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,146
Jun 26, 2014 5:46:37 GMT
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Post by lindas on Feb 16, 2023 15:33:19 GMT
I see the rail firm have pulled out of the public meeting. BBC Representatives of the Norfolk Southern railway company, whose train carrying the chemicals derailed 13 days ago causing a huge fire, cited security concerns. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64659795Gee, if only there was a way to be in a room and answer questions without being physically in the room /s. Zoom call anyone?? Considering there are already lawsuits being filed I think it would be safe to assume their lawyers advised them not to attend.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Feb 16, 2023 19:54:53 GMT
Train off the tracks Detroit, MI A train traveling outside Detroit, Michigan, has derailed this Thursday, with at least one car carrying hazardous material, Fox News reports. It's not yet known what caused the train to derail. Authorities told local news reporters that there were no injuries and the area has not been declared a hazmat situation. At this time no one is aware of the release of any hazardous materials, the car carrying hazardous material has been put upright and is being removed from the area of the other derailed cars, and EPA is dispatching a team to ensure public safety," Rep. Debbie Dingell, (D-MI) said in a statement. www.rawstory.com/train-carrying-hazardous-materials-derails-in-michigan/
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Post by onelasttime on Feb 17, 2023 15:54:40 GMT
The important thing to remember, IMO, when the Republicans claim they are “pro business “ they mean remove rules/laws like this one. And they do it at the expense of the American People, more often than not in areas where the people can least afford it.
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lindas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,146
Jun 26, 2014 5:46:37 GMT
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Post by lindas on Feb 17, 2023 17:55:28 GMT
The brake rule should never have been reversed but it wasn’t the brakes that caused this train to derail. link.
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Post by sabrinae on Feb 17, 2023 18:48:59 GMT
I see the rail firm have pulled out of the public meeting. BBC Representatives of the Norfolk Southern railway company, whose train carrying the chemicals derailed 13 days ago causing a huge fire, cited security concerns. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64659795Gee, if only there was a way to be in a room and answer questions without being physically in the room /s. Zoom call anyone?? Considering there are already lawsuits being filed I think it would be safe to assume their lawyers advised them not to attend. That is not what the railroad said though. They specifically said they weren’t attending because they are claiming people are threatening the company. I personally haven’t seen any proof but yes the community is I’m sure angry. There are also many ways to still attend town halls address health and safety concerns caused by your company even if there are lawsuits. The railroad response hasn’t been great considering the amount of damage they’ve caused.
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Post by mollycoddle on Feb 18, 2023 12:13:52 GMT
The plot thickens.
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Post by mollycoddle on Feb 18, 2023 12:15:00 GMT
And this. Thank you, Senator.
And then…
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Post by mollycoddle on Feb 18, 2023 12:20:32 GMT
He is reacting to Norfolk and Southern trying to give folks a bit of $$ to sign away their future rights. They thought that they could get away with it. DeWine was offered federal assistance and did not seek it for nearly 2 weeks. Guess who is a DeWine donor? A certain railroad.
This was not a profile in courage on the part of the governor. Far from it. Trains were running a few days after the incident. I am so pissed off right now. Thank heaven that Senator Brown applied some pressure.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Feb 18, 2023 13:26:09 GMT
Considering there are already lawsuits being filed I think it would be safe to assume their lawyers advised them not to attend. That is not what the railroad said though. They specifically said they weren’t attending because they are claiming people are threatening the company. I personally haven’t seen any proof but yes the community is I’m sure angry. There are also many ways to still attend town halls address health and safety concerns caused by your company even if there are lawsuits. The railroad response hasn’t been great considering the amount of damage they’ve caused. I don’t doubt at all that their employees are getting threats. Heck, our school district has gotten repeated threats any time our “concerned parents” group goes public with one of their concerns. People are not right.
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Post by onelasttime on Feb 18, 2023 18:59:00 GMT
The pictures in the article in the tweet reminded me of this.
Of what could have been. Those tracks go right through the middle at least three cities if not five cities in Sonoma County. And when I say the middle, I mean the middle of these cities. In neighborhoods. If I remember correctly they were planning on sending multiple trains a day with I want to say 100 cars each. That would have been a nightmare.
“McGuire bill to halt North Coast coal train project sails through California Senate”
“A secretive plan to transport millions of tons of coal through the Sierra Nevada, across Sonoma County then north to Humboldt Bay was dealt a major blow Monday, when the California Senate overwhelmingly passed a bill preventing the use of state funds for the project.
Written by Sen. Mike McGuire, D-Healdsburg, the bill bars the state from spending money to initiate improvements on the now-defunct North Coast rail line north of Willits. It also prevents the spending of state funds on any potential new bulk coal terminal facilities at the Port of Humboldt. The bill passed 33-2, and now goes over to the state Assembly.
“The proposed toxic coal train is an environmental disaster in the making,” said McGuire in a release. The coal shipments would travel “through the heart of our thriving communities, ancient redwoods, and directly along the banks of the Eel and Russian rivers, which are the main drinking water source for nearly 1 million residents. It is crucial we stop this dangerous proposal — it transcends politics, and I’m grateful for the bipartisan support.”
If allowed to proceed, the coal-shipping scheme also would pose an existential threat to the Great Redwood Trail, a 316-mile foot and bike path envisioned to one day connect San Francisco Bay to Humboldt Bay.
The plan to haul coal on the now-crumbling railroad came to light in August, when a newly formed limited liability corporation objected to California’s effort to convert the abandoned tracks into a recreational trail. That mysterious outfit, the North Coast Railroad Company, filed paperwork before the U.S. Surface Transportation Board, a federal agency that oversees freight rail shipping, claiming it had $1.2 billion in financing to restore abandoned rail segments that run through the region, including the remote, slide-prone Eel River Canyon.
The prospect of coal trains clanking through Northern California cities and towns and alongside the Russian and Eel rivers, has since generated widespread public outrage. In September, officials of the Humboldt Bay Harbor District, which regulates port facilities in the bay, essentially said the coal project was a non-starter.
We have no intention of spending any time looking at the feasibility at all,” the district’s director, Larry Oetke, told The Press Democrat. “I don’t want to give it any credence.”
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twinsmomfla99
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,975
Jun 26, 2014 13:42:47 GMT
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Post by twinsmomfla99 on Feb 18, 2023 22:38:14 GMT
The brake rule should never have been reversed but it wasn’t the brakes that caused this train to derail. link. I am blocked from the article without a subscription. The new brakes would have reduced the damage even if some cars derailed. www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/infrastructure/ecp-brakes-technology-ohio-derailment/amp/“These ECP brakes are very important for oil trains,” rail safety expert Steven Ditmeyer said in 2018 when the regulations were rolled back. “It makes a great deal of sense: All the brakes get applied immediately, and there would be fewer cars in the pileup.” Ditmeyer told The Lever earlier this month that the ECP brakes would have made the East Palestine, Ohio, crash less severe. Referring to the opposition within the rail industry, he said: “The railroads will test new features. But once they are told they have to do it … they don’t want to spend the money.” The National Transportation Safety Board has confirmed to The Lever and HuffPost that the train was not equipped with ECP brakes. A preliminary report on a cause of the crash is expected in two weeks.
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Post by onelasttime on Feb 22, 2023 20:36:47 GMT
What you can’t see without clicking on it is a trump tweet bragging about what he just did.
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Post by onelasttime on Feb 22, 2023 21:01:17 GMT
I wonder if this is the water he brought and is it still good?
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,973
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Feb 22, 2023 21:06:04 GMT
I wonder if this is the water he brought and is it still good? I can't stop chuckling. Of course he did.
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RosieKat
Drama Llama
PeaJect #12
Posts: 5,376
Jun 25, 2014 19:28:04 GMT
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Post by RosieKat on Feb 22, 2023 21:06:37 GMT
So this is an honest question/observation - the braking bill seems to reference protecting explosions from flammable chemicals. But I thought these particular ones were not considered highly flammable (as in the OSHA/NFPA info) and that the fire was only caused by deliberate human action. So although I fully support the braking bill, would it even have applied to this train?
Please know that I am fully pro-environment. It's my university degree and I worked in the field for several years. I've worked in a chemical plant. And I hate Trump. So I'm not trying to argue anything here, I'm just trying to pick apart the threads. It seems like the braking issue and this specific derailment may be two separate important issues?
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Feb 22, 2023 21:25:23 GMT
The braking bill could have helped.. There apparently was an overheated unit and the system, if operational, would alert the engineer that there was a problem and to slow down immediately. Which might have prevented the derailment ...
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Feb 22, 2023 21:26:46 GMT
And the response is...
My bottled water does have a best use by date on the bottles..
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Post by onelasttime on Feb 22, 2023 21:53:18 GMT
So this is an honest question/observation - the braking bill seems to reference protecting explosions from flammable chemicals. But I thought these particular ones were not considered highly flammable (as in the OSHA/NFPA info) and that the fire was only caused by deliberate human action. So although I fully support the braking bill, would it even have applied to this train? Please know that I am fully pro-environment. It's my university degree and I worked in the field for several years. I've worked in a chemical plant. And I hate Trump. So I'm not trying to argue anything here, I'm just trying to pick apart the threads. It seems like the braking issue and this specific derailment may be two separate important issues? The current belief is a bearing in one of the wheels was in final stages of doing whatever it does. And you know one can’t stop a train on a dime. The brake system trump nixed might have made a difference in stopping this train to the point the derailment wouldn’t have been as severe as it was. Of course until the investigation is done no one will know the entire story. But it seems to makes sense to put these braking systems in all trains. I mean that’s a no brainer. IMO From Vox. link”Better brakes are another important safety measure. A new generation of electronically controlled pneumatic ( ECP) brakes for trains creates redundancy in the braking system and allows trains to apply brakes to all of their cars simultaneously. That means when a conductor slams the brakes, the cars don’t all run into each other. In a report last year, the FRA said that these brakes “improve both safety and braking performance of trains” but that train companies have been reluctant to invest in them due to cost.” & ”The Obama administration created a requirement for ECP brakes at least on trains hauling flammable materials, but the Trump administration in 2018 revoked the requirement. “The Department’s analysis shows that the expected costs of requiring ECP brakes would be significantly higher than the expected benefits of the requirement,” according to a Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration statement.”
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lindas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,146
Jun 26, 2014 5:46:37 GMT
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Post by lindas on Feb 22, 2023 21:56:53 GMT
So this is an honest question/observation - the braking bill seems to reference protecting explosions from flammable chemicals. But I thought these particular ones were not considered highly flammable (as in the OSHA/NFPA info) and that the fire was only caused by deliberate human action. So although I fully support the braking bill, would it even have applied to this train? Please know that I am fully pro-environment. It's my university degree and I worked in the field for several years. I've worked in a chemical plant. And I hate Trump. So I'm not trying to argue anything here, I'm just trying to pick apart the threads. It seems like the braking issue and this specific derailment may be two separate important issues? I don’t think it would have made a difference. My question has always been why they didn’t try to siphon that stuff off into tanker trucks instead on dumping it and setting it on fire.
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RosieKat
Drama Llama
PeaJect #12
Posts: 5,376
Jun 25, 2014 19:28:04 GMT
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Post by RosieKat on Feb 22, 2023 22:03:49 GMT
revirdsuba99 and onelasttime, do you think that system would even have been required on this train, though? I don't disagree it seems to be a good idea for any train with anything on it, especially if it's hazardous in any way, but it sounds like the requirement would only have applied to FLAMMABLE products. And just because you can burn something doesn't make it classified as past that flammable threshhold. So that's all I'm trying to figure out. Sure, the brakes probably would have helped, but would they have been required under that law anyway? (Again, not trying to nitpick for the sake of arguing, just trying to fully understand it all because you know darn sure the lawyers will argue everything they can.) And we all know that the vast majority of businesses aren't going to spend money that isn't required.
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Post by onelasttime on Feb 22, 2023 22:33:45 GMT
If they weren’t they should have been. IMO. From Stat News. link “What were the five chemicals the EPA found at the site?”On Feb. 10, the EPA sent a letter to Norfolk Southern Railway Company reporting five toxic chemicals found in air, soil, or water surrounding the crash site. They are: vinyl chloride, butyl acrylate, ethylene glycol, isobutylene, and ethylhexyl acrylate. Here’s a quick rundown of each chemical’s toxicity — and their byproducts when burned, which can also be toxic. Vinyl chloride has gotten the most attention so far. It’s a colorless, flammable gas and known carcinogen. Most studies on vinyl chloride are related to occupational exposure or to residents who live near factories that produce it. Those longer-term, chronic exposures have been linked to certain liver, brain and lung cancers, lymphoma and leukemia. Short-term exposures, like those in East Palestine, can lead to irritation in eyes, nose, throat, and lungs. People can also suffer from headaches, dizziness, drowsiness, nausea, or tingling in the arms and legs. As vinyl chloride burns, the gas can form byproducts including hydrogen chloride, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and traces of phosgene. The EPA tested at least 480 homes around East Palestine and did not detect vinyl chloride or hydrogen chloride in any of them. The EPA has not indicated whether it tested for phosgene, and has not yet returned STAT’s request for comment on the matter. Phosgene is hazardous at very low levels, noted Schettler, and has been used as a chemical weapon in war. “It’s highly corrosive to the lungs at really low levels, at fractions of a part per million.” Since vinyl chloride in the air breaks down and dissipates in a day or two, it would not be found in air now. However, it may persist in soil and water, according to soil and crop scientist Murray McBride of Cornell University, who advises farmers and residents near the derailment site to test their soil and water. “Vinyl chloride is highly mobile in soils and water and can persist for years in groundwater,” wrote McBride. Butyl acrylate was released in large amounts when a car full of the chemical derailed. It’s a colorless liquid used to manufacture paints, solvents, and sealants. Exposure can cause irritation to the nose and eyes, nausea, and vomiting, as well as allergic skin reactions, said Schettler. State EPA officials have found butyl acrylate at multiple sampling sites along the Ohio River, though they say the concentrations are low and the river large enough that it poses no risk — it has been found at levels below 3 parts per billion, while the CDC considers levels above 560 parts per billion hazardous. The Department of Environmental Protection tested groundwater near the derailment site and concluded that wells in town would be safe. As for contamination of the Ohio River, cities and towns on the river have been monitoring closely. Greater Cincinnati Water Works planned to shut off access to the water reserve once butyl acrylate reached the city, letting it pass through and using reserve water. Other cities also shut down their water plants while the plume of butyl acetate went by. Ethylene glycol is a solvent used in paints, inks, and cleaning products. It’s highly flammable and acutely toxic. “It irritates the skin and eyes, causing sore throat, coughing and skin rashes,” said Schettler. Isobutylene is a gas used as an antioxidant in packaging and plastics. “At moderate concentrations it can cause dizziness and drowsiness,” said Schettler, but the train’s cargo manifest, which has been widely shared, did not show this chemical leaking. “If that’s true,” said Schettler, “there are no exposures.” Ethylhexyl acrylate is a colorless liquid used to make paints and plastics that can cause skin and respiratory irritation, sore throat, nausea, vomiting and diarrhea at levels starting at 5 ppm in air. Benzene, petroleum lubricating oil, and other substances likely burned as well. What other toxic chemicals were created or used in the fires? Dioxin. One big concern is the possibility of contamination by dioxin, a highly toxic, carcinogenic, and persistent compound released when polyvinyl chloride burns. Polyvinyl chloride, or PVC, was present in four of the cars originally on fire. PVC is widely used in plumbing and pipes, flooring, and health care settings. “Dioxins are persistent pollutants, highly toxic, and on the international dirty dozen list,” said environmental sociologist Rebecca Altman, author of the forthcoming “The Song of Styrene: An Intimate History of Plastics.” The EPA has not yet tested for dioxin contamination, but a similar train derailment in Germany in 2000 found high levels of dioxin in the area where fires had burned polyvinyl chloride. Elevated levels of dioxins have been found in other industrial accidents involving chlorinated chemicals, as well. “The EPA should be testing for dioxins in water and soil,” said Mike Schade, an environmental activist with Toxic-Free Future. Cornell’s McBride concurs, as does Schettler, who said: “We know when polyvinyl chloride burns it creates dioxins. I’m certain from the view of that black smoke plume that it was a witch’s brew of chemicals on fire, and I’m quite certain dioxins would be among them.” PFAS (perfluoroalkyl substances), which are typically found in firefighting foams, may also have been released. The U.S. government has said that high levels of exposure to these chemicals, called “forever” toxins because they don’t break down naturally, may be linked to a number of health conditions including increased risk of kidney and testicular cancer, changes in liver enzymes, and increased cholesterol levels. EPA officials have not yet tested the water for PFAS, but have promised to start. Related: Why EPA’s long-awaited proposal on two ‘forever chemicals’ is bound to be controversial As for other novel compounds released as a result of the derailment, we may never know their full extent. “Studies of wildfire smoke in California find that new and dangerous compounds form when fires burn into communities,” said Schettler. “The chemicals, plastics and paints in homes are much like the materials that were on this train.” Hartings agreed. “The EPA’s testing is not necessarily monitoring novel toxins and compounds.” Schettler said the EPA needs to continue to test soil and water away from the actual site. “They are carrying out extensive cleanup in the immediate area, but they need to continue monitoring further away. There is a lot of contaminated soil that could be a continued reservoir for hazardous chemicals that get into homes and food.”
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Post by onelasttime on Feb 22, 2023 22:41:33 GMT
Wow.
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Post by onelasttime on Feb 23, 2023 0:13:37 GMT
revirdsuba99 and onelasttime , do you think that system would even have been required on this train, though? I don't disagree it seems to be a good idea for any train with anything on it, especially if it's hazardous in any way, but it sounds like the requirement would only have applied to FLAMMABLE products. And just because you can burn something doesn't make it classified as past that flammable threshhold. So that's all I'm trying to figure out. Sure, the brakes probably would have helped, but would they have been required under that law anyway? (Again, not trying to nitpick for the sake of arguing, just trying to fully understand it all because you know darn sure the lawyers will argue everything they can.) And we all know that the vast majority of businesses aren't going to spend money that isn't required. Apparently, according to the article below, the answer is no. But, snd there is always a but, look at the bolded part. It would only apply to trains carrying cargo deemed to have a “high-hazard flammable” cargo on trains with 20 or more loaded tank cars”. Seriously? What happens if the train is carrying 19 of these cars? They get to keep the old brakes? Seriously? The technology exists that makes suddenly stopping trains safer. Yet there is push back from people in the Rail industry. It costs too much is the excuse they give. So even when the powers to be want to make these new brake systems mandatory only on trains that haul 20 or more cars of “high-hazard flammable” cargo there is still push back by whinnying about the cost. Unbelievable. So if the public is paying attention they now know about these safer brakes and should start pushing the train companies/government to start switching over to these safer breaks for all trains/cars. They don’t have to do every train/car by the day after tomorrow. But it needs to be done. USA - link“Jennifer Homendy, who chairs the National Transportation Safety Board, said the brake rule would not have prevented the East Palestine derailment because it was proposed for "high-hazard flammable" trains carrying 20 or more loaded tank cars. The train that derailed did not meet that threshold. The White House also resurfaced a 2021 letter to the Federal Railroad Administration signed by 20 Republican senators in support of waivers backed by the rail lobby to allow automated inspections of track safety instead of human inspections. “
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Post by onelasttime on Feb 23, 2023 1:35:10 GMT
This response to Secretary Pete generated a bunch of responses that are true…
Some of the responses to the responses…
1. “The federal Gov't has been there. It's not a national tragedy. I'm not unfeeling for what the residents have gone through. There were no fatalities, no major injuries, no destruction of homes or businesses. The NTSB is investigating. The EPA has been there”
2. “What did trump accomplish? He handed out MAGA hats. Performative politics accomplishes nothing. Actions accomplish a great deal. You are everything wrong with journalism. You are still playing Trump’s game. Shame.” 3. “Just stop it. The EPA, the PHMSA, FRA, the NTSB and both governors were there. This is not about photo-ops, which is the only reason Trump was there.”
4. “I remember the mayor saying he didn’t think the President should come there because of all that entails with a Presidential visit. Then he shows up on FAUX News and lies. Shame on him. I feel sorry for the city with him in charge.”
5. “And, other than publicity for himself, unloading some 13-year-old water, and doling out Mickey D's, which I've almost gotta believe is a kickback for him at this point, what did he accomplish?”
6. “This isn’t a national tragedy. There is a company responsible for this. They’re holding them accountable WITH local officials.”
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Feb 23, 2023 3:19:16 GMT
RosieKat I don't know the answer. Thanks onelasttime for expanding on the brake issue. I do know the value of simultaneous braking. Anyone who has ridden the bicycle with hand brakes also knows.. If you use the front brakes first you will likely find yourself going over the handle bars.
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Post by onelasttime on Feb 23, 2023 4:26:07 GMT
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