RosieKat
Drama Llama
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PeaJect #12
Posts: 5,446
Jun 25, 2014 19:28:04 GMT
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Post by RosieKat on Aug 2, 2023 1:35:19 GMT
The only reply to this ^^^ is that the Catholic Church states in there doctrine (?) or Statement of Faith that homosexuality is a "sin" and will not support anything the pertains to this "sin". Yeah, whether it's this or some other reason - which I'm sure they had SOME reason - it's not a good enough reason to let people die. (Not "yelling" at you, quiltz, I'm "yelling" at them.)
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Post by sunnyd on Aug 2, 2023 1:51:51 GMT
When covid hit, of course, churches closed. It was the first time in my life that I didn't attend church. And I didn't miss it. The only thing I missed was serving, which is big in the church I attended. So I signed up to volunteer with a non-profit that is near and dear to my heart. I have since taken on a volunteer leadership role in the non-profit. I feel like I'm still doing "God's work" and it aligns with my values more than the church did. I don't plan to go back to church.
I realize I had attended church for so long because it was expected of me. In fact, some family members used manipulation to keep me going to church. It was also just a lifelong habit. I didn't really enjoy it and decided to focus on things I enjoy.
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 2, 2023 2:05:55 GMT
My church leader's daughter saw me smoking in the mall and I didn't want a lecture (I was 15 and had been going on my own to church since I was elementary age as they had a bus that would pick us up)
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Post by Zee on Aug 2, 2023 3:03:28 GMT
I briefly went as a pre-teen, with my grandma. It was a nice time for us to spend together. After mass we would go to the local donut shop and get a bear claw, heated, with butter. Those always make me think of her!
But after I became a teen we fell out of the habit. I was never really a believer anyway. My parents were both raised in Catholic schools and didn't want that for their children. My sister and I were not raised with religion so much as just enjoying the Catholic traditions. We only went to church for weddings, funerals, and baptisms.
When my DD was a baby I decided I might want to attend again, and I wanted to have her baptized. But the constant badgering to tithe was too much for me. I could barely afford rent and the laundromat! So we (me and my baby, DH is an atheist) stopped going.
When DS was born I again wanted my baby baptized, so I attended whatever I needed to attend but the priest was an off-putting weirdo who gave me bad vibes and after later exposes of the Catholic church and having met some creepy priests, I was done.
The family still has weddings, baptisms, and funerals in the church but no one is particularly devout. I'm more of an agnostic so I don't really care about church. I don't like listening to long sermons and I don't want to give money regularly beyond the collection plate.
So now all my church-going is confined to visiting beautiful chapels if there is one where I'm going, and lighting a candle and saying a quick prayer.
The best one I was in was the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City. That was so glorious. There she was, right on the wall! I love Catholic imagery (idolatry!) like no other.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Aug 2, 2023 8:08:54 GMT
THAT one service the pastor must have been on drugs.. I don't know. The next thing I heard from him, he was saying "Catholics were going to hell" I don't even remember anything before or after that. I was mortified. I was frozen. I grew up Catholic and we didn't hear this often as there are not very many evangelical churches in the area I grew up, lots of Catholics. But I have heard this from evangelicals more than once in my adulthood. This...hard to find a religion where this does not go on... I wonder if it is simply the large group effect. This one-upmanship, gossip, etc. in churches. Like high school for grown ups. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/MNrJDkDuSwqIMVw33MdD.jpg) hard to have respect for the institution when the priests make the local headlines for impregnating a 16 year old parishioner. WTH!?!? That's craziness. I am personally not religious, but I ran across this podcast with Dr. Russell Moore a few days ago; you might like it: Thank you for this link. I'm going to listen this morning. Same kid got to the point when it was time to be confirmed and had to write a letter to the Bishop about why she wanted to be confirmed. She came to us crying and said "I can't do it. I don't believe in anything the Catholic church believes in: woman should be priests! Priests should be allowed to get married! I believe in abortion rights and LGBTQ rights and contraception in third world countries. And you both do too! How can you go to a church and then tell us not to listen to what they are saying?!?" I had a very similar moment when I was being pressured by my mom to be confirmed Catholic as a teen. I presented my case to my dad and in one of his finer moments (he had few) he said my argument was persuasive and he was overruling (not uncommon) my mom. So I wasn't forced to be confirmed. I have felt a shift in how I feel about various outreaches and ministries they have. They very much have a mentality of 'going' and reaching out to help others (going, as in foreign ministries) when my eyes have been opened to areas that could use help in our own community. Yes, I absolutely agree with this. This is part of the reason why I felt good at the UU Church. They were very much "think globally, act locally" in mentality. Now, I tend to be socially anxious and not really a joiner, but I was giving of my money, if not my time, and I felt good about where my dollars were being used in my community. US Conference of Catholic Bishops had actively campaigned against the funding of the new 988 suicide hotline number because it included specific resources to help LGBTQ+ callers. That just made me literally ill. I thought I surely had to be misunderstanding something, but no, it was true and it was for that reason. This is gross. The Catholic Church has funded all the state-wide gay marriage bans back in the early aughts too.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Aug 2, 2023 8:15:25 GMT
So I signed up to volunteer with a non-profit that is near and dear to my heart. I have since taken on a volunteer leadership role in the non-profit. I feel like I'm still doing "God's work" and it aligns with my values more than the church did. I don't plan to go back to church. I am glad you found an outlet that allows you to live in your values!
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Post by fkawitchypea on Aug 2, 2023 10:58:19 GMT
This was my experience as well. It was well before the 2016 election but when the priest starting spouting politics I was offended. It didn't make me stop going (sporadically, mostly with my mom). What made me and my much more devout mother stop going was finding out that my grandmother was having an affair with a priest who had been a childhood friend. Her husband was dying at the time. She carried on with him for a few years before he dumped her for a much wealthier woman. She went nuts and her physical decline started then. My mother and I had to take care of her until she died and that man never once checked to see how she was doing. He died recently when flood waters washed his car away in the adirondack town he was living in with his girlfriend in her expensive lake house. Karma.
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Post by janamke on Aug 2, 2023 16:31:21 GMT
Buckle up, my list is long:
1. Regularly bullied in Sunday school by the parochial school kids because I was in public school.
2. Women were not allowed to be part of the church leadership.
3. Pastor gave a sermon that said AIDS was put on this earth as a punishment for homosexuality.
4. Same pastor called my mom a whore and harlot when we met with him for support after my parents separated.
5. Started attending Catholic mass and planned to raise children Catholic. Months after I baptized my twins, the sex abuse scandal broke. 16 years and still waiting for an apology and appropriate punishment for all involved.
6. Latest church is none of the above, our pastor is a queer woman, churches mission is social justice.
Why don’t I go? It’s boring. I don’t believe in the Bible, it’s just a bunch of stories. I don’t get anything out of church. I hate singing. If I don’t leave church feeling fulfilled and refreshed, then there isn’t a point. I fully believe my experiences above directly cause these issues.
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Post by guzismom on Aug 2, 2023 16:55:02 GMT
I was already moving away from the Church (Roman Catholic) prior to the pandemic but the pandemic was the death knell. I have a very difficult time with many of the socio-economic teachings of the Church: abortion, particularly...but their approach to LGBTQ issues is a close second. While I absolutely believe the current Pope and his approach is a step in the right direction, he has many detractors within the heirarchy and the American church in particular is extremely conservative.
I find very little focus on 'following Jesus" and too much focus on 'following the dogma of the church' to be comfortable particpating anymore. I feel like my spiritual self has matured so I often question things such as 'what is God' and 'is there a hell'; questioning is difficult in the RC Church outside of the university setting. It makes me sad when I think about it because in the past I have gotten so much comfort from it; and I don't have the energy or interest in seeking out something more in keeping with my beliefs.
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Post by cadoodlebug on Aug 2, 2023 17:05:03 GMT
I grew up going to church. My parents were always very active leaders in our church. After college, I joined the local First Methodist and loved going. I was even elected to the Board of Trustees. Dated the Associate Minister. ![:blush:](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/R6yG4nI0YHiVm0wktwl4.jpg) Belonged to the singles Sunday School class. When I met and married DH, I moved to CA. I tried different churches but just never found *my* church. None ever felt like home to me. I took DS to Sunday school for a while and Vacation Bible School for several years. Honestly, it comes down to being too lazy at this point. Embarrassing but true. I still believe in God and pray every night.
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scrappert
Prolific Pea
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RefuPea #2956
Posts: 7,876
Location: Milwaukee, WI area
Jul 11, 2014 21:20:09 GMT
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Post by scrappert on Aug 2, 2023 17:07:03 GMT
I will start by saying that I did not read the article, I am just going to answer the question. I never really went to church on a regular basis. Growing up we didn't go to church often but on holidays. When I got married, we moved away and never went to church or sought one out. Once we came back, it was again, only on holidays. But I did start to go to Bible study and honestly got a lot out of that. Then recently, I talked my SO into going to a Christian church. He was raised Catholic and I was Lutheran. I went to his church and I can honestly say I was bored and didn't care for it. I was not getting anything out of it other than being annoyed that I was there. We finally did a Christmas service last year at the Christian church by us. And he loved it. We have been going pretty much every Sunday since then. I am a big believer that you have to find the right church. We feel comfortable there and enjoy the singing (live band). It has really been a growing process for the both of us. This is what keeps me going back. I'm curious about what a "Christian" church is, apart from the Roman Catholic church and the Lutheran church, both of which *are* Christian. Do you mean non-denominational? Yes, sorry for the confusion. Non-denominational.
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The Great Carpezio
Pearl Clutcher
Something profound goes here.
Posts: 2,943
Jun 25, 2014 21:50:33 GMT
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Aug 2, 2023 19:12:59 GMT
Nearly everyone I grew up with in my childhood church in Lincoln, Nebraska, is no longer Christian. That’s not unusual. Forty million Americans have stopped attending church in the past 25 years. That’s something like 12 percent of the population, and it represents the largest concentrated change in church attendance in American history. As a Christian, I feel this shift acutely. My wife and I wonder whether the institutions and communities that have helped preserve us in our own faith will still exist for our four children, let alone whatever grandkids we might one day have. I want to start by saying I understand that you didn't want this to devolve into religion bashing. I understand your intent, but I quoted the above introduction to the article (which I read a couple of days ago and agree that it was way too simplistic and white-washing the real issues facing religion today) because he does start his essay out by talking about how most of the people he grew up with are no longer Christian. He does then seem to mostly address the people who have just "fallen away", but he never clearly transitions to that point....so that bugged me as well, All of that is to say that I am no longer Christian/Catholic, but I think people like me ARE OFTEN people like you---just months, years, decades down the line. I follow a lot of people on TikTok who have deconstructed. This writer used "de-churched"so he could focus on the disconnected aspect coming from Covid and busy lives, but he ignored the deconstructing, and that is a HUGE part of those no longer attending church/being part of a church community. Some started during Covid, but I can tell you that almost all of them fall into two categories (and FYI not all who are deconstructing or have deconstructed are no longer Christian but many don't want to be part of organized religion anymore): 1. They are like me. They started the deconstruction early on....most, like me, didn't call it that because it wasn't a trend then. Many suffered religious trauma, or, like me, saw suffering (My priest abused people I know) and/or had a really high bullshit meter and saw the hypocrisy just questioned a lot (my SIL started questioning after her mom died and the Church wanted money). For me, it was a really long journey. I am 51 now and I started questioning around 15ish, started what I would now call deconstruction in my 20s, and finally came to peace with no longer being religious at all (still agnostic though) in my 40s. 2. The other group started later and a lot of it has to do with Trump/rise of Christofacism/religious nationalism. They listened to what they were taught and truly believed and were part of their religious communities, but the last 7-8 years opened their eyes to what really seemed to be going on. It is hard to put that back in the bottle once you've seen it. We can see this in many posts here talking about the intertwining of politics and religion and with those who have children or people they love who are being hurt by a community they loved, believed was benevolent, and trusted. So, I think it is a lot of things, but I don't think we can sweep deconstruction under the rug in this discussion (I think this author was trying to skirt that). I don't think that was your intention OP, but I think those of us who have been through the process (as long as we are respectful) need to be part of the dialogue.
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Post by peatlejuice on Aug 2, 2023 22:15:30 GMT
I stopped going because I didn't see the benefit of surrounding myself with hypocrites. People who acted so godly and lead classes on how everyone should live their lives as a christian, and then did the exact opposite once outside the doors. I had a bible study leader who went on and on about not sleeping with your partner out of wedlock, only to find out from his girlfriend when they broke up that they were indeed having sex. Our small group leader was a man who thought "we" were better than others because of the area where we live and made comments weekly about it. Once he was asking for volunteers to make sack lunches for the many homeless people in a neighboring city; as he was explaining what went into the lunches he said, "It's nothing you and I would want to eat." The churches I attended when I was younger weren't like a concert; we sang hymns. Every church now is in a big auditorium with a band. I always feel sorry for the elderly members and wonder if they like the loud music. I don't, not at church. I'd rather spend my Sundays outside enjoying God's nature. I agree with everything Rhondito said. I was baptized and confirmed Lutheran (ELCA) and my daughter was too. My late husband was agnostic but he would attend any church function that I asked of him. He was also one of the most morally upright people I knew. After dd got confirmed, we all stopped going to church. This was years ago, even before the conservatives ruined Christianity (for me). Too many hypocrites in too many so-called Christian churches. They may talk the talk but they sure do not walk the talk. I consider myself a generic spiritual being. Many different ways to heaven (or whatever afterlife) and many different versions of God. I'll chime in as the daughter (literally, I'm her daughter). Growing up, I always struggled with going to church and having peers who spent the school week ignoring my existence pretend to play nice with me on Sundays so they could get the approval of their parents and the pastor. I was also uncomfortable with much of the messaging that claimed that only those with faith could get to Heaven. As my mom said, my dad was an agnostic with outstanding morals. I couldn't get my mind around the idea that people who I saw treat others badly could make it into Heaven because they went to church, but that my good, kind, loving father couldn't, because he chose to stay home and hide Easter eggs instead of attending a sunrise service. It wasn't until I took a "Questions of Faith" class in college (taught by a Jesuit), that I was able to reconcile those feelings. That reconciliation including coming to the conclusion that the Church (in my view, of any Christian denomination) now serves as a literal bully pulpit for people, instead of serving as a vehicle for God's love, and that one does not need to be churched to have a relationship with God (or whatever religious entity you choose to worship).
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Post by jeremysgirl on Aug 2, 2023 22:44:42 GMT
The Great Carpezio I appreciate your respectful tone. I want to ask you if I'm interpreting you correctly, are you saying that once you succumb to not placing any importance on attending services then you think belief will fall off as well. Just a matter of time? Note: I've had many things challenge my own beliefs especially the past year. Maybe that's subconsciously just flat out turning off my desire or motivation to go.
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Post by gizzy on Aug 3, 2023 2:29:01 GMT
My reasons are nuanced and kind of hard to put into words. I'll try.
I became disillusioned by people worshipping every Sunday but then seeming to be uncaring when someone would have something happen to them/their family, etc. Like, they had already prayed for people and gave donations at church. Why would they give to this person/family? Those people couldn't even muster a "that poor family" sentiment.
Born again Christians that tell me they did something wrong but it wasn't wrong because they prayed about it and GOD told them it was okay.
I grew tired of the choir singing for what seemed like the fifth time in a service. I like worship songs but I'd also like to have more of a homily.
I started following a different church during the pandemic. I love the homilies and that I can fast forward thru the solos and numerous songs.
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The Great Carpezio
Pearl Clutcher
Something profound goes here.
Posts: 2,943
Jun 25, 2014 21:50:33 GMT
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Aug 3, 2023 6:15:21 GMT
The Great Carpezio I appreciate your respectful tone. I want to ask you if I'm interpreting you correctly, are you saying that once you succumb to not placing any importance on attending services then you think belief will fall off as well. Just a matter of time? Note: I've had many things challenge my own beliefs especially the past year. Maybe that's subconsciously just flat out turning off my desire or motivation to go. It can be that way. I’d say my DH might fall into that category, but my answer would be that for most people, no. I think it needs to be paired with deconstruction. I do think that trauma, Trump, “wokeness”, Covid, business—whatever it is keeping someone from church can provide a break from the indoctrination/voices/ritual of religion, and that might not be filled with anything but guilt about not going and a plan to go next Sunday——or it might give a person a chance to start examining what they believe, why they believe it and that is leading a lot of people to deconstructing their faith.
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Post by peasapie on Aug 3, 2023 11:04:07 GMT
I think that article is a scattershot opinion piece essay, hoping to hit a target.
I stopped going to church mainly because it became irrelevant to me. I grew up in a Catholic family who said prayers before dinner every night and went to church every Sunday. I even taught in Catholic school for a few years. But saying the same prayer night after night before dinner felt meaningless to me, and going through the sit, stand, kneel routine at church also felt meaningless. The priest’s sermon seldom seemed relevant to me, and there weren’t any activities in my church that kept me going for the idea of fellowship. That’s the real reason I stopped going.
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Post by alsomsknit on Aug 3, 2023 14:01:49 GMT
I'm honestly not trying to be a bitch about this but I'm not going to apologize for wanting to hear from believers who fell away from attending services. I get it. Some people don't believe. I don't know why anyone would feel compelled to have to say that in a thread about why believers aren't attending church. While I now lack belief and any consequence of a spiritual being, I started out in a church and left. Believed for a time and basically went through a metamorphosis to where I am presently. Mine just began a couple of decades earlier. Then there is Dad holding on for dear life to his church. I enjoyed the holiday services immensely because the pastor and his family were musically inclined. Beautiful music! The son worked magic with that trumpet. The children grew up and the holiday services became somewhat anemic. The pastor retired. COVID happened and the evangelicals began harping on vaccines, etc… Now, it all dooms day horrors. Dad still attends though so many people have never returned. He is my eternal optimist. He leaves services feeling sad and dejected, instead of uplifted. We have offered to help him find a new church. He is habit driven, so changing from a church he has attended going on 50 years is unthinkable at this point. He needs to be able to walk into church without bracing for an onslaught of misery and doom. He needs to leave feeling uplifted. Mom died in the midst of all the upheaval. We try to meet his needs as best we can. It isn’t helping that his church has become another source of grief and sadness.
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Post by hopechest on Aug 3, 2023 15:29:47 GMT
In my 20s it was rebellion. I was raised going to church, and once I got to "adulthood" I started to question what I learned. Those questions were not met with understanding and discussion and teaching, they were met with snide remarks and putdowns about being a sinner/going to hell, etc.
In my 30s it was because I was busy doing everything else except working on my faith or soul.
In my 40s I wanted to consider going back, but just wasn't ready to forgive/forget how I was treated. Also, I was coming into my "feminist" phase of life and took issue with some of the christian beliefs around women in the church, abortion, wifely autonomy, etc. However, I had a kiddo at that time and felt it important that we start teaching some sort of religious base. But...I just never went forward with it.
In my 50s We've been to a few church services to "try them on". Nothing has fit so far. We went with some friends to a service at their church, and it consisted of several members giving testimony. My DH was raised Catholic, so he was about ready to fall out of his chair. LOL. I was raised Evangelical, so I knew the scoop. Each member told their story and it was the selection of addiction, death/grief, abuse, etc. The one that punched me in the gut was the husband/wife. He talked about alllll the cheating and women he had been with during their marriage and how god helped him realize his mistake. She spoke for just a minute on how god helped heal her heart and despite all the hurt she stood by him. Now, to be clear, each to their own. If that works for you, that is your business. But I just couldn't shake the feeling that that testimony was so dangerous for women in the congregation. Stay with your husband no matter what. When we got to the car, I looked at my DH and let him know that to be clear...if he is sleeping with dozens of women god will not heal my heart, god will give me the strength to pitch his shit out on the lawn.
So to answer your question in many less words -- I just haven't found one that aligns with what I believe Christianity means to me.
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Post by monklady123 on Aug 3, 2023 15:59:27 GMT
In my 20s it was rebellion. I was raised going to church, and once I got to "adulthood" I started to question what I learned. Those questions were not met with understanding and discussion and teaching, they were met with snide remarks and putdowns about being a sinner/going to hell, etc. In my 30s it was because I was busy doing everything else except working on my faith or soul. In my 40s I wanted to consider going back, but just wasn't ready to forgive/forget how I was treated. Also, I was coming into my "feminist" phase of life and took issue with some of the christian beliefs around women in the church, abortion, wifely autonomy, etc. However, I had a kiddo at that time and felt it important that we start teaching some sort of religious base. But...I just never went forward with it. In my 50s We've been to a few church services to "try them on". Nothing has fit so far. We went with some friends to a service at their church, and it consisted of several members giving testimony. My DH was raised Catholic, so he was about ready to fall out of his chair. LOL. I was raised Evangelical, so I knew the scoop. Each member told their story and it was the selection of addiction, death/grief, abuse, etc. The one that punched me in the gut was the husband/wife. He talked about alllll the cheating and women he had been with during their marriage and how god helped him realize his mistake. She spoke for just a minute on how god helped heal her heart and despite all the hurt she stood by him. Now, to be clear, each to their own. If that works for you, that is your business. But I just couldn't shake the feeling that that testimony was so dangerous for women in the congregation. Stay with your husband no matter what. When we got to the car, I looked at my DH and let him know that to be clear... if he is sleeping with dozens of women god will not heal my heart, god will give me the strength to pitch his shit out on the lawn.
So to answer your question in many less words -- I just haven't found one that aligns with what I believe Christianity means to me. ![:laugh:](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/Ivm7lm0DayrhoRpwvCeH.jpg) My personal belief about God is that God is going to be cheering you on as you pitch your soon-to-be-ex-dh's stuff out on the lawn (if he were to have affairs with other women).
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Post by katlady on Aug 3, 2023 16:11:25 GMT
My co-worker has a simple situation. She wants to go to church weekly but doesn’t because her SO doesn’t want to go. I am sure there are many couples like that.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Aug 3, 2023 17:06:47 GMT
I was a cradle Catholic, baptized, communion, confirmation, private school through 7th grade, church on Sundays and every holy day, the whole deal. TBH, even as a kid I couldn’t reconcile my own personal beliefs with what I was being taught in school, mainly because the other “Catholic, Christian” kids in my school were downright horrible people whose rotten, entitled behavior was never reined in because that’s where the school’s money came from. There was such a total disconnect between what the Bible preached and how these people acted. They would look like scrubbed up little angels in church on Sunday only to go on with their bad selves treating me and anyone else they deemed “less than” like crap for the rest of the week. And my mom wondered why I never had any friends at that school. Fast forward to the age when I was old enough to get to church by myself (well, with younger brother in tow), probably around 6th grade or so. My mom liked to go to church on Saturday night, I didn’t like going at all but she would let us walk to church by ourselves on Sunday morning. We’d take our time walking down the middle of the wide boulevard that was blocks long, under the canopy of trees to get to church, which was a big old Romanesque Revival styled building. Once there, we would grab a bulletin (as proof of attendance, LOL) and sit unnoticed in an alcove in the narthex. We would talk quietly and basically bide our time until we knew it would be safe to sneak out and head home (slowly) again. That went on for a few years until I was probably about 15, and then I was pretty much just done and stopped even pretending that we were actually going. My mom must have figured she had done what she could do and if we didn’t go, oh well. DH was baptized but that was about it. Neither parent was particularly religious. He questioned them RE: why do we go to church at age six, and they didn’t have a good answer. Not surprisingly, after that they just stopped going. When we got engaged, I really wanted to just elope or get married at the courthouse and my mom said if we didn’t get married in a church she wouldn’t go. So we compromised and got married in a Methodist church, by a female pastor. 😎 These days we pretty much only go to church for weddings or funerals, and at our age there are far more of the latter than the former. I consider myself to be spiritual more than religious. I do believe Jesus was an actual person, it’s hard to imagine that a book like the Bible could survive for thousands of years if there wasn’t at least a kernel of truth to it. Having said that though, I will never belong to any formal religion again. So much deceit, dishonesty, hypocrisy, misogyny, bigotry, etc. has surfaced especially over the last decade with regard to various so-called “Christians” that I really can’t associate with that in good conscience. I find myself SMDH every time I read yet another scandalous story involving some supposedly religious person and think to myself, “WWJD?” Yeah, definitely not that. We didn’t have our kid baptized when she was born. She has had questions about the church and religion and I answer them as honestly as I am able. DH and I both decided that when she is old enough she can decide for herself what is right for her. She has some friends who come from devout churchgoing families, and I’ll just say that some of the things I’ve personally heard and seen those kids say and do look exactly like what I remember from the kids I knew in my private school days. No thanks.
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Post by snowsilver on Aug 4, 2023 5:22:02 GMT
I've read all these posts with interest. I know I will be an outlier in this group, but I just need to speak up, not necessarily for the church per se, but for the church's God. Jesus is the best friend I have in this world. He is as real to me as your own family is to most of you. He fills my life with joy every day. I do go to church. Every week. But no church will ever keep me that doesn't follow the Bible completely. The Bible is a great gift from God. It is a roadmap to heaven. Ignoring that roadmap is a great peril. I think most people believe they are going to heaven (if they actually believe in heaven), but Jesus, Himself said in His famed Sermon on the Mount that very few people will find the way there. That's because they don't read the roadmap. So that means to ME that if God says something is a sin--it is a sin! Pure and simple. And sinners will not enter the gates of heaven. That applies to liars, thieves, gossipers and anything else God calls sin.
However, God also says he LOVES those sinners. And that means I am to do so as well. But not affirm them in their sins. Because that is NOT love. Every single one of us is walking towards judgment. There is no escaping it. Revelation talks about the Great White Throne judgment. I do not want to appear before that one. So I read my Bible and ask God to help me walk the path He has set before me.
As I said, I do go to church. And yes, the church is full of hypocrites and sinners. Like me. I don't go to look at them. I go to worship my Creator who fills my life with joy. Who died for me so that I CAN enter the gates of heaven.
Some of the stories a number of you have related here that happened to you in church are horrific. But please remember, GOD did not do those things to you. PEOPLE did.
I just want to affirm that God means what He says. He doesn't change His rules because you or I don't like them. There is a price for entering heaven. That is giving yourself completely to God and allowing Him to make the necessary changes in you to fit you for that wonderful place. One thing that you will miss by not going to church (and sadly, you might miss it IN church as well as so many pastors don't talk about it) is the very nearness of His return. But I can tell you that Bible scholars all over the world are seeing the signs and are believing that the return is very soon. It would be a horrible thing not to be ready.
Again, Jesus is my very best friend. He walks with me in every dark valley.
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Post by lainey on Aug 4, 2023 10:46:08 GMT
Isn't hubris considered to be a fundamental sin, asking for a friend?
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Post by gar on Aug 4, 2023 10:51:08 GMT
Isn't hubris considered to be a fundamental sin, asking for a friend? 👏🏻
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MorningPerson
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,510
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Jul 4, 2014 21:35:44 GMT
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Post by MorningPerson on Aug 4, 2023 11:36:29 GMT
………And sinners will not enter the gates of heaven. That applies to liars, thieves, gossipers and anything else God calls sin………….. ……….However, God also says he LOVES those sinners. And that means I am to do so as well. But not affirm them in their sins. Because that is NOT love…..... As I said in my previous post, I’m sorting out where I am with everything. I was seriously thrown for a loop during the worst days of the pandemic by people I considered good, strong, moral Christians. Their words and actions were completely opposite what I would have expected and I have so many questions that I’ve never received satisfactory answers to. The way you describe your beliefs is very similar to the people I’m talking about. I don’t want to make any false assumptions here, so do you mind sharing what you and your church’s position was on masking, social distancing, respecting the advice of medical experts, etc.?
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Post by MissBianca on Aug 4, 2023 12:33:49 GMT
The Great Carpezio I appreciate your respectful tone. I want to ask you if I'm interpreting you correctly, are you saying that once you succumb to not placing any importance on attending services then you think belief will fall off as well. Just a matter of time? Note: I've had many things challenge my own beliefs especially the past year. Maybe that's subconsciously just flat out turning off my desire or motivation to go. Can I give you my thoughts on this? It’s something my MIL said once that stuck with me. She was Southern Baptist and she said that you don’t need to be in a church to worship god, he should be with you no matter where you are. She also said she shouldn’t have to talk through someone to talk to god, ie confessional. What makes them so special that they have a direct line of communication with god but the rest of us don’t. I honestly think that depending on the person , you can have a deeper and more meaningful relationship with whoever your god is without being in a brick building every weekend. It’s how you live your life on the daily that he sees. My niece is Mormon and I’m sure I’m going to muddle this a little bit but we had talked about the differences in the Catholic Church and the Mormon church. She said that when you die, you stand before him for judgment and they play a highlight reel of your life. I can pretty much guarantee church services are not in the highlight reel, it’s the day to day stuff that is going to be looked at. When they look at the reel, that’s when it’s decided if you go to heaven or purgatory. I’m sure I’m getting some of the details either wrong or I’m missing some but that’s the gist of it.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Aug 4, 2023 12:55:29 GMT
Sorry everyone for not replying sooner. I'm camping this week/weekend so I haven't been on the board as much as I would have liked to be. I appreciate your input. I really, really do. There is a lot to think about. I don't go to church for the community. I was raised Catholic and that wasn't a big thing there either. I go for the message. I could live without the singing too. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/Q_m8lDOvc_3Le3r1GKdf.jpg) I have been reading the philosophy/psychology of William James lately. And while I haven't finished the collection I have right now I found his lecture on determinism to be particularly compelling. (Spoiler: he is against it) I had believed in some sort of hybrid determinism and free will mix. I think this comes from my mental illness really as some days I can't control my brain and some days I can. But I've had a real problem with the idea that Esther's death was predetermined. I know this maybe sounds silly to you but the idea that God would have chosen her as some kind of lesson to all of us who loved her is abhorrent to me. And I had chosen to view other tribulations in my life through this lens. I also recently had a discussion with a dear friend and he was telling me about another friend of his who had lost her daughter to drug overdose. And she just couldn't rest her mind not knowing if it was accidental or intentional. And his response was, why does it matter? And I've thought long and hard because I share her sentiments. And the day he said that to me, my only response was, it just does matter. I realize now after reading some of James's work that the reason it matters is the issue of free will. Was it a tragic accident (for which I might hold God responsible) or was it intentional (Esther's free will) and not being able to reconcile this, not having the answer has called into question for me my own belief on what is the purpose of God. It's been a real challenge for me to work this out in my head. So I know that when things like this happen, it rocks your faith and you have to go back to the beginning and kind of start from scratch to rebuild things. I'm muddling away right now and feel like going to church might help me but something that I assumed was laziness or pandemic in person hesitancy after years of avoiding people has me just not taking the step out the door. But I was reading this morning some research about free will and it got me thinking about it all. Anyway, thank you for your responses. I appreciate them.
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Post by compeateropeator on Aug 4, 2023 13:03:32 GMT
As one that has always questioned religion these are many things that I just truly can’t justify or internalize. I certainly don’t expect a response because I understand that it is something that biblical scholars have been discussing forever and can never be truly answered, therefore do not expect someone to be able to in a few comments on a message board…but I assume this is some of what many who have issues with the Bible think.
But there are so many version and so much has been changed with each translation, how do you know that you are actually following a correct roadmap or the one that was intended? Especially if they were translated/done so by some of the hypocrites and sinners that consider themselves Christians?
I have see these fact before:
Over 30,000 changes were made, of which more than 5,000 represent differences between the Greek text used for the Revised Version and that used as the basis of the King James Version.
Have you ever played the old game telephone? How do you reconcile that the Bible was interpreted, changed and rewritten all by imperfect humans?
I have also seen/read, when people ask should we still obey the Old Testament, some kind of version of the following response: According to Jesus and the rest of the New Testament, we are not required to keep these civil laws. Just as Abraham was promised in the book of Genesis, the church has grown from a people of one nation to a people made up of all nations.
So if Bible is truly the roadmap, and the roadmap was updated between the Old Testament and the New Testament, why would it not be updated now? I have never seen a roadmap not change.
Murdering your neighbor may not have changed (but Christian’s can justify and participate in wars, which is murdering your neighbors) but Loving who you love has not changed either, so how can you not justify loving who you love?
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Post by snowsilver on Aug 4, 2023 15:51:37 GMT
………And sinners will not enter the gates of heaven. That applies to liars, thieves, gossipers and anything else God calls sin………….. ……….However, God also says he LOVES those sinners. And that means I am to do so as well. But not affirm them in their sins. Because that is NOT love…..... As I said in my previous post, I’m sorting out where I am with everything. I was seriously thrown for a loop during the worst days of the pandemic by people I considered good, strong, moral Christians. Their words and actions were completely opposite what I would have expected and I have so many questions that I’ve never received satisfactory answers to. The way you describe your beliefs is very similar to the people I’m talking about. I don’t want to make any false assumptions here, so do you mind sharing what you and your church’s position was on masking, social distancing, respecting the advice of medical experts, etc.? During the pandemic I accepted science's advise. I stayed home from church, I masked and I social distanced. There were in my church, as there were in every church, varying opinions on the situation. Many felt that churches should not be closed and casinos allowed open. I think we will be dealing with those varying opinions and exactly where science was right and where it went wrong for years to come.
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