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Post by jeremysgirl on Mar 6, 2024 14:04:51 GMT
But I can accept them and I can advocate for them I think that this is the goal of everyone. Well, everyone who is kind. Acceptance is pretty well defined. Advocacy is not, IMO. This is where I think there are gray areas. If I want something for my own children, why wouldn't I want it for every child? This doesn't mean I don't accept that people make other decisions and I need to support them post-decision. I do. I have. This also doesn't mean everyone is necessarily in the same circumstances. My own kids don't make every "correct" decision and neither did I. But I accept it and support them and don't belittle them. But I still hold that some statistics exist and I encourage my own child, who wants children, to marry someone who is going to be a full partner in childrearing because I think it would be best for her and her children to have that extra layer of support, both emotionally, practically, and financially. Before a decision, I think requires advocacy, after a decision, requires acceptance and support regardless of whether that decision was in anyone's opinion or statistically speaking the "best" one. Anyway, this is how I raise my kids. This is how I treat friends and family. |
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Post by hop2 on Mar 6, 2024 14:22:02 GMT
Ok, on that subject, there are still issues unaddressed. You’ve heard of the poor man workbook issue? Where it is in the long term cheaper for the worker to buy the more expensive longer lasting workbooks than buy & replace multiple pairs of cheaper workbooks. Buying the better ones has merit. Absolutely. But if the poor man doesn’t have the money for the expensive work boots it is definitely unsafe for him to go to work without any even the cheaper ones. So the work boots are not always actually a choice, the poor man isn’t really choosing to over time spend more on work boots he is choosing to protect his feet now any way he can afford to. What appears to be a choice is not actually a real choice. And wealthy people do look down on people who don’t make the “choice” of the better more sustainable work boots they are choosing for themselves. But they fail to see that it isn’t really a choice for the poor man because it would be worse to go to work without protecting his feet at all. I would never denigrate the choices of the poor to buy what they can afford. So I get the work boot analogy. With that said, I just read a statistic that the average Shein customer is a middle income, white woman in her 30s that spends an average of $100 a month on clothing. That's the person I want to reach. There is an economy of scale issue too. If enough of us pushed for change in this area and voted with our wallets, economy of scale principle would dictate that prices would also come down on ethically made and sustainable clothing. As I've said above a million times that there are always going to be exceptions. There are people who can't afford electric cars or solar panels, but we are making progress for environmental reasons. Economies of scale are expected to prevail in this area too. SHEIN is another story altogether. I just think that when ‘we’ ( general we ) push for government regulation that needs to come hand in hand with minimum needs being met. Yes clothing should be sustainable but then perhaps employers ( the biggest freeloaders of all imo ) should be providing those minimum safety needs meeting the sustainable law. Taxpayers subsidize companies like Walmart daily because so many of its employees make so little that they require food stamps and other assistance. Like all these states rolling back child labor laws are not in anyway verifying if the child’s ( a legal minor who can’t even enter a contract ) minimum safety needs are being met. And children are becoming injured & dying. I just don’t get it. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Mar 6, 2024 14:23:53 GMT
I would never denigrate the choices of the poor to buy what they can afford. So I get the work boot analogy. With that said, I just read a statistic that the average Shein customer is a middle income, white woman in her 30s that spends an average of $100 a month on clothing. That's the person I want to reach. There is an economy of scale issue too. If enough of us pushed for change in this area and voted with our wallets, economy of scale principle would dictate that prices would also come down on ethically made and sustainable clothing. As I've said above a million times that there are always going to be exceptions. There are people who can't afford electric cars or solar panels, but we are making progress for environmental reasons. Economies of scale are expected to prevail in this area too. SHEIN is another story altogether. I just think that when ‘we’ ( general we ) push for government regulation that needs to come hand in hand with minimum needs being met. Yes clothing should be sustainable but then perhaps employers ( the biggest freeloaders of all imo ) should be providing those minimum safety needs meeting the sustainable law. Taxpayers subsidize companies like Walmart daily because so many of its employees make so little that they require food stamps and other assistance. Like all these states rolling back child labor laws are not in anyway verifying if the child’s ( a legal minor who can’t even enter a contract ) minimum safety needs are being met. And children are becoming injured & dying. I just don’t get it. I'm with you 110%. |
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Post by crazy4scraps on Mar 6, 2024 14:33:15 GMT
I would never denigrate the choices of the poor to buy what they can afford. So I get the work boot analogy. With that said, I just read a statistic that the average Shein customer is a middle income, white woman in her 30s that spends an average of $100 a month on clothing. That's the person I want to reach. There is an economy of scale issue too. If enough of us pushed for change in this area and voted with our wallets, economy of scale principle would dictate that prices would also come down on ethically made and sustainable clothing. As I've said above a million times that there are always going to be exceptions. There are people who can't afford electric cars or solar panels, but we are making progress for environmental reasons. Economies of scale are expected to prevail in this area too. I just wanted to touch on what I’ve bolded above. First off, I’m not a Shein customer. I prefer buying better quality stuff and I’m not a big fan of trendy, fast fashion. BUT I also have a 13yo DD who wants stuff from there. I try to steer her toward buying things in real stores where she can try stuff on before buying. I’m not opposed to spending more money on something that will last for myself, but for a kid who will probably grow out of everything she owns before next year, it’s a bit trickier especially since she doesn’t like or want clothing with classic, timeless styles. And then there’s the issue of style. 🙄 OMG, the kid is so infatuated with the anime schoolgirl look, it’s about to send me straight over the edge. Some of the stuff she sends me pictures of that she likes is so over the top ridiculous I can’t imagine that she wouldn’t get teased to death at school if she actually wore it there. The things she wants aren’t sold in “regular” stores but they are sold online through sites like Shein and Temu and Amazon. Believe me, we have looked and looked and looked some more, everywhere from cheap cheap places like H&M and Old Navy to really expensive like Macy’s or Nordstrom and everything in between and none of the physical stores here sell what she wants. She has money of her own to spend, but she doesn’t have the means to buy online herself which means that sometimes mom has to order for her and she pays mom back in cash. Granted, I’m probably 20 years older than a typical mom of a 13 year old girl, which would mean a percentage of her peers have 30-something year old moms that are falling into that Shein demographic, some of whom are probably spending $100 a month of their kid’s money on clothes at places like that. So then you have to ask, who is the real demographic wearing those clothes? And then that does change the discussion somewhat. I was so impressed with your ability to make it through the 100 day challenge that you did, and I was also very impressed with how much you were able to change it up day to day. 😎 But I can also say with complete certainty that if I told my kid she had to wear the same wool dress (or any outfit for that matter) for even seven days in a row she would be absolutely horrified. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Mar 6, 2024 14:58:10 GMT
But I can also say with complete certainty that if I told my kid she had to wear the same wool dress (or any outfit for that matter) for even seven days in a row she would be absolutely horrified. This made me LOL! I think most people would. I think most people followed me the same way they'd be gawking at a trainwreck. I don't think what I did was anywhere close to normal. And part of the reason I even did it was because I considered it a social science experiment of sorts. I'm ridiculously curious in a way when someone presents something to me that even remotely peaks my interest I feel like I have to try. And I don't always succeed with whatever ridiculous thing I have going on either. I also believe that everything is not all or nothing. I still have not sourced good shoes, for example. And bras are another struggle because everything I can find that fits the criteria is just not enough support for my ample girls.  And I'll tell you that if you think I'm extreme, my kid will blow your socks off. Her and I were at the symphony in the fall. I was quite embarrassed about her bag lady look. I suggested to her that I buy her one full outfit, including shoes that was special enough for a night out. I told her I would give it to her for Christmas because she is very proud and does not want mom's money or support. And she said, I'd just like some new sheets and some black unisex socks. I was like, black unisex socks? She said, yeah, me and fiance share. I nearly fell out of my chair that my own daughter is so cheap (I always knew she was a thrift store shopper) that she doesn't even have her own socks! That's extreme. Too extreme. I would rather she buy a symphony appropriate outfit and some of her own socks from Shein than go without. But again, I'm mom and what do I know? There's no reasoning with her. Probably same as your kid.  There are limits to our influence. |
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Post by crazy4scraps on Mar 6, 2024 19:08:47 GMT
But I can also say with complete certainty that if I told my kid she had to wear the same wool dress (or any outfit for that matter) for even seven days in a row she would be absolutely horrified. This made me LOL! I think most people would. I think most people followed me the same way they'd be gawking at a trainwreck. I don't think what I did was anywhere close to normal. And part of the reason I even did it was because I considered it a social science experiment of sorts. I'm ridiculously curious in a way when someone presents something to me that even remotely peaks my interest I feel like I have to try. And I don't always succeed with whatever ridiculous thing I have going on either. I also believe that everything is not all or nothing. I still have not sourced good shoes, for example. And bras are another struggle because everything I can find that fits the criteria is just not enough support for my ample girls.  And I'll tell you that if you think I'm extreme, my kid will blow your socks off. Her and I were at the symphony in the fall. I was quite embarrassed about her bag lady look. I suggested to her that I buy her one full outfit, including shoes that was special enough for a night out. I told her I would give it to her for Christmas because she is very proud and does not want mom's money or support. And she said, I'd just like some new sheets and some black unisex socks. I was like, black unisex socks? She said, yeah, me and fiance share. I nearly fell out of my chair that my own daughter is so cheap (I always knew she was a thrift store shopper) that she doesn't even have her own socks! That's extreme. Too extreme. I would rather she buy a symphony appropriate outfit and some of her own socks from Shein than go without. But again, I'm mom and what do I know? There's no reasoning with her. Probably same as your kid.  There are limits to our influence. Now you’re making me LOL! 🤣 I’d have to be pretty hard pressed before I would share socks with my DH! I totally hear what you’re saying with all this. At this point I would be ecstatic if I could get my kid to wear anything more than once before washing it. I will freely admit that if I’m wearing something on a day when I’m not getting all sweaty and gross, it doesn’t smell or look stained or full of dog hair, I’ll probably wear something another day. (Granted, I work from home and most days the only people who ever see me are DH and DD.) She’ll wear something for two hours and then into the laundry pile it goes. 🙄 Her laundry for a week is more than double what DH and I generate together which is kind of another facet of this same issue. I feel like that is wasteful too because not only does it waste water and detergent washing clothes that are basically clean, but everything wears out faster too. |
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Post by scrapmaven on Mar 6, 2024 21:15:39 GMT
This isn't about any one thing. It's about our values and our thoughts about the world around us. It's about having the freedom to express an opinion and stand up for my beliefs and values w/o being insulted or talked to in a condescending manner. This is what I was trying to get at. If it is a matter of the way we say/approach things that differ from the choices other people make. I also wonder if there is a point where the people we are talking to are too sensitive and take a random comment as a slap to them when it was not intended to be in any way. I'll just share that this topic was inspired by a group conversation I was having in regard to reading and watching TV. Yes, it was not about politics, social issues, mental illness, socioeconomic status, etc. By all rights there was absolutely not a big fish here. I happened to be talking to someone about the recent books I read and another person outside the conversation popped in to make a shitty comment to me. I think I rubbed her the wrong way and I did not intend to initially. I wasn't even talking to her. Her snap back comment, she was judging me. So I made a shitty comment back to her which made me feel bad because I know it was not the right way to handle the situation. But she was judging me, so I made a judgmental comment back at her. It was obvious she felt stung by my initial comment which is why she reacted in such a shitty way and then it was obvious to me that she was stung by the slapback comment I made to her following. When I was evaluating the conversation I realized that the second comment (the only one I made directly to her) was probably unkind and definitely judgmental, but it was actually the way I feel. I stand behind that opinion. But social mores dictate that I probably shouldn't have said it out loud to her. So this is where I am coming from in this discussion. I immediately thought of something when I read this post. Many years ago I just lost my verbal temper and got into a huge yelling match w/someone. It ended w/an FU and a door slam, something I've never done either before or since that event. It had been building for years and years. Someone was inherently bad and I had just had it. Though I am not proud of that moment and regret losing my temper, I am not sorry for the things I said. I wish I had said them calmly and w/grace, but I would never never never apologize, because what I said was absolutely 100% the truth. Judgement vs. Preference and also, Regret vs. Apology. You were responding to someone who probably doesn't think they said or did anything inappropriately. |
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Post by mollycoddle on Mar 7, 2024 12:01:17 GMT
Let me see if I can pull out a different example that not as loaded as heterosexual marriage. You know how I feel, since learning several years ago, about ethically produced and sustainably made fashion. This is something that I believe hands down is important and merit based. I believe it is better for the workers and the environment to choose clothing carefully. I started a thread about consumption and I know you posted there pantsonfire and had a few similar views. Does this mean that I am judging those who don't have the same sets of criteria for purchases that I do? Is it OK if I simply don't say anything? If I do say anything just in general, do you think it is the right reaction for someone to assume judgement and thereby get defensive? Is there just a gray area with some people wanting to believe this is a preference issue and not a judgment issue? Am I not doing my part to advocate for people and the environment by just sitting quietly during a talk about purchasing fast fashion? I think that it’s perfectly fine in matters of fashion, hair, makeup, decorating to not like something and to hold your tongue. I also think that it’s fine to think that the choices that others make generally are their business. Unless-and this to me is the important point-those choices are harming someone else. In the case of abortion, I believe that advocating for a national abortion ban would harm many people. And it is not ok for me personally to keep quiet about it. It is my opinion, based on what I have read about the trauma of women who medically NEED an abortion, cannot have one, and this has put their health/lives at risk. Is that what you were asking, or did I read it wrong? ETA: when people make shitty comments, esp to complete strangers on the internet, they run the risk of a return volley. She should have thought of that before she made assumptions and then made a shitty comment to you. It is admirable that you felt badly. |
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Post by silverlining on Mar 7, 2024 17:19:27 GMT
silverlining I understand the place you are coming from. I get that you are wanting to recognize your privilege and distance yourself from the idea that you are judging. But I'm a little blown away by the way you've conveyed it. I understand really well the areas in which I have experienced privilege. I also understand the areas where I don't. I think sometimes in our wanting so badly to distance ourselves from the idea of judging others and wanting to have compassion, we really underestimate the abilities of others. And reading your post, I really get that vibe from you. But I want you to recognize that your post, while I don't think that was your intention, could be seen as condescending. There is an area in my life where I both have privilege and I don't have privilege and that is my mental health. In many ways, I have to work very hard to control my mental health and in some other ways, I am very lucky in that I have access to things like good health care (medicine), therapy, cognitive abilities that are greater in some circumstances than others with similar mental illnesses, and some personality traits which make me more resilient than a lot of other people. In other ways, I am challenged by my mental health in ways that neurotypical people are not and sometimes I do absolutely need compassion for things that are beyond my control. I say this because, IMO, just like economic success is a combination of luck and hard work, managing a mental illness is also a combination of luck and hard work. There is a balance to things, a fine line, gray area. In my experience, on this topic, there are times when I just need someone to extend me compassion and there are other times when I need people to suggest tools and offer encouragement for me to work harder. I think it very much discounts the abilities of others to not try to discern what they truly need on a individual basis. And that is where I think your comment, though well intended, falls short. It is disempowering because it implies that the less privileged don't have any measure of control over some of their outcomes. And maybe I'm seeing it the wrong way, but I feel very much in regard to my mental health, that having a balance between acceptance of what I can't control and a clear distinction on things that I absolutely can control to be empowering. I don't want anyone to take that from me by asserting that the totality of my outcome is based on a lack of privilege. |
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Post by silverlining on Mar 7, 2024 17:32:01 GMT
I didn’t intend to comment about you at all. I thought the article that you referred to was suggesting that people need to verbalize their opinions about why they made certain choices in their life and not be afraid to say things like Marriage is good.
I don’t agree with the article. I think most people don’t need to be told that children do better with two or more adults in their life who are loving and kind to them. I also think people like you who have worked hard to overcome struggles are much more likely to be listened to than people who haven’t had that experience.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Mar 7, 2024 17:35:59 GMT
I didn’t intend to comment about you at all. I thought the article that you referred to was suggesting that people need to verbalize their opinions about why they made certain choices in their life and not be afraid to say things like Marriage is good. I don’t agree with the article. I think most people don’t need to be told that children do better with two or more adults in their life who are loving and kind to them. I also think people like you who have worked hard to overcome struggles are much more likely to be listened to than people who haven’t had that experience. I didn't take your comment personally. I think I understood where you were coming from. I just didn't agree and maybe it was the delivery that rubbed me wrong? Maybe your opinion too was limited to the article discussing marriage only? I still am not totally clear. But I felt like you were stripping other people of agency. Maybe I misunderstood. ETA: I do believe there is value in role models. Statistically there are communities where there are less role models on certain topics so I do believe that part of being a community is showing people the way that worked to our own success. |
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And I'll tell you that if you think I'm extreme, my kid will blow your socks off. Her and I were at the symphony in the fall. I was quite embarrassed about her bag lady look. I suggested to her that I buy her one full outfit, including shoes that was special enough for a night out. I told her I would give it to her for Christmas because she is very proud and does not want mom's money or support. And she said, I'd just like some new sheets and some black unisex socks. I was like, black unisex socks? She said, yeah, me and fiance share. I nearly fell out of my chair that my own daughter is so cheap (I always knew she was a thrift store shopper) that she doesn't even have her own socks! That's extreme. Too extreme. I would rather she buy a symphony appropriate outfit and some of her own socks from Shein than go without. But again, I'm mom and what do I know? There's no reasoning with her. Probably same as your kid. 
There are limits to our influence. 
And I'll tell you that if you think I'm extreme, my kid will blow your socks off. Her and I were at the symphony in the fall. I was quite embarrassed about her bag lady look. I suggested to her that I buy her one full outfit, including shoes that was special enough for a night out. I told her I would give it to her for Christmas because she is very proud and does not want mom's money or support. And she said, I'd just like some new sheets and some black unisex socks. I was like, black unisex socks? She said, yeah, me and fiance share. I nearly fell out of my chair that my own daughter is so cheap (I always knew she was a thrift store shopper) that she doesn't even have her own socks! That's extreme. Too extreme. I would rather she buy a symphony appropriate outfit and some of her own socks from Shein than go without. But again, I'm mom and what do I know? There's no reasoning with her. Probably same as your kid. 
There are limits to our influence. 
