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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 21:53:03 GMT
I dare anyone who thinks that our country was not founded by men who had a deep and abiding faith in God, or that our constitution has no basis in judeo-Christian beliefs, to come to Colonial Williamsburg. Sit and listen to Patrick Henry, George Washington, George Wythe, Thomas Jefferson, and try to tell them that God had no hand in the formation of this Nation. I dare you.
In the words of "Patrick Henry", to whom I poses this question this evening....
"RUBBISH!"
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Post by SunnySmile on Jul 5, 2014 21:56:05 GMT
I believe that our country was founded on such beliefs, and I think God had a hand in it. How cool that you got to be in Williamsburg for the holiday!
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Post by ntsf on Jul 5, 2014 22:35:12 GMT
whether they believed in God or not...they were big big believers in separation of church and state and to have no national religion or religious test for office....our country had a history of freedom of and freedom from religion
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Post by SunnySmile on Jul 5, 2014 22:37:22 GMT
whether they believed in God or not...they were big big believers in separation of church and state and to have no national religion or religious test for office....our country had a history of freedom of and freedom from religion |
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Post by scrapsuzy on Jul 6, 2014 8:52:36 GMT
What you are saying is what I would call the true "inconvenient truths."  |
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Post by maureen on Jul 6, 2014 10:33:15 GMT
I think they were deeply religious men who were also smart enough to know that religion had no place in official documentation.
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wannapea
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Post by wannapea on Jul 6, 2014 12:08:02 GMT
"“How dismal it is to see present day Americans yearning for the very orthodoxy that their country was founded to escape.” - Christopher Hitchens
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amom23
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Post by amom23 on Jul 6, 2014 12:11:51 GMT
whether they believed in God or not...they were big big believers in separation of church and state and to have no national religion or religious test for office....our country had a history of freedom of and freedom from religion This |
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Rainbow
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Post by Rainbow on Jul 6, 2014 12:25:31 GMT
I dare anyone who thinks that our country was not founded by men who had a deep and abiding faith in God, or that our constitution has no basis in judeo-Christian beliefs, to come to Colonial Williamsburg. Sit and listen to Patrick Henry, George Washington, George Wythe, Thomas Jefferson, and try to tell them that God had no hand in the formation of this Nation. I dare you. In the words of "Patrick Henry", to whom I poses this question this evening.... "RUBBISH!" |
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Post by I-95 on Jul 6, 2014 12:26:34 GMT
Absolutely true. Of course the Constitution has its roots in Judeo-Christian beliefs...even if the founders didn't believe in God, or certain aspects of religion, the only thing they had to base their ideas on were from J/C beliefs. But what does that have to do with anything? These were men who trying to escape the tyranny of the Church, which is why they were so strongly convinced that church and state must be kept separate.
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wannapea
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Post by wannapea on Jul 6, 2014 12:28:21 GMT
Yep. Undeniable. Still, revisionists will try.
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Rainbow
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Post by Rainbow on Jul 6, 2014 12:32:03 GMT
whether they believed in God or not...they were big big believers in separation of church and state and to have no national religion or religious test for office....our country had a history of freedom of and freedom from religion |
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Post by rebelyelle on Jul 6, 2014 13:47:36 GMT
Their faith is irrelevant. They created a nation free from the constraints of a national religion - a place where all faiths (and lack thereof) are welcome and accepted - a nation where you can worship freely, or not worship at all. If their intent was to create a strictly Judeo-Christian nation, they were smart enough that they would have enunciated that point in the Constitution itself.
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Post by myboysnme on Jul 6, 2014 13:57:16 GMT
I have lived near Colonial Williamsburg for almost 25 years and worked up there as well. I can honestly say I have never seen any emphasis placed on this: "I dare anyone who thinks that our country was not founded by men who had a deep and abiding faith in God, or that our constitution has no basis in judeo-Christian beliefs, to come to Colonial Williamsburg."
Now when you go sit in Bruton Parish Church there are benches identified that were used by founding fathers, but other than that, I have no idea what you are sitting and listening to.
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The Great Carpezio
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Jul 6, 2014 14:05:15 GMT
Just because---
Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the arc of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment... I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.
----Thomas Jefferson
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AmeliaBloomer
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 6, 2014 15:03:42 GMT
"“How dismal it is to see present day Americans yearning for the very orthodoxy that their country was founded to escape.” - Christopher Hitchens
That man had a great mind. (Hitchens, that is.)
And back to topic, I agree with what most posters are saying here. Nobody's denying that the men who founded our country were of a Judeo-Christian mindset - mostly Christian, Deist, Unitarian. They believed in the Judeo- Christian idea of God, and wrote about it. I'd be surprised, though, if some of them wouldn't have some doctrinal disagreements with modern-day American Evangelical Christians...but that's not the topic.
As a nation, religion should not be informing our every perspective and decision. That was not their intent.
Is that same guy at Williamsburg who plays Mr. Jefferson? He's been there forever. He's quite good; I hope you saw him.
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Post by Kelpea on Jul 6, 2014 15:08:31 GMT
((sigh)) Once again just because Christians state our forefathers were Christians or that our country was founded on that one religion, does not make it fact. Washington was considered a Deist and Freemason. Jefferson was was considered a Deist as well. It is suggested by MANY historians that the only Christian among the forefathers was John Jay. Please review the Enlightenment Era, which produced some of the most memorable, forward-thinking writers, artists and leaders of their time, our forefathers among them. www.history.com/topics/enlightenment |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 15:09:44 GMT
Yep. Undeniable. Still, revisionists will try.  |
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Judy26
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Post by Judy26 on Jul 6, 2014 15:32:21 GMT
Just because--- Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the arc of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment... I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors. ----Thomas Jefferson This bears repeating on every political thread. If only our present politicians were so wise... |
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Post by **Angie** on Jul 6, 2014 15:56:12 GMT
Snark alert - unless we have figured out a way to reincarnate the founding fathers, what we hear at Williamsburg (and everywhere else), is someone's take on what the founding father's wrote. And I think we all know that from being online that the written word is easily misconstrued.
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huskergal
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Post by huskergal on Jul 6, 2014 16:13:00 GMT
Their faith is irrelevant. They created a nation free from the constraints of a national religion - a place where all faiths (and lack thereof) are welcome and accepted - a nation where you can worship freely, or not worship at all. If their intent was to create a strictly Judeo-Christian nation, they were smart enough that they would have enunciated that point in the Constitution itself. This is the really important fact. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 2:29:22 GMT
Their faith is irrelevant. They created a nation free from the constraints of a national religion - a place where all faiths (and lack thereof) are welcome and accepted - a nation where you can worship freely, or not worship at all. If their intent was to create a strictly Judeo-Christian nation, they were smart enough that they would have enunciated that point in the Constitution itself. I have never said that they wished to create a strictly judeo Christian nation. Far from it. Just last week in the hobby lobby thread, when kelpea posted the insightful link (sarcasm) "FF quotes that will make conservatives heads spin" , I pointed out that those quotes were taken completely out of context. Then I said that most all of the FF feared the COLLUISON of government and religion, because they understood that separately they provide needed checks and balances on each other, but once in collusion, they destroy the very liberty and freedom that they each seek to promote. So, no, they never intended to have a state religion. But almost without exception, they recognized the value of Christianity and it's compatibly with liberty, and they believed almost withou fail, that for a people to maintain liberty, they must be moral, frugal, repsonsible people, and that adherence to a religion was of utmost important. Also, they all believed that the churches were to be the source of care for the destitute and infirm, NOT the federal government. Hard to do that when no one goes to church anymore. Even Jefferson, who many claim was a Diest, believed in an almighty God, and placed great importance on the God given reason of the mind, over organized religion, would not have argued that our country had no basis in Christian values. It is indisputable that it did. And I only posted this because of the many times over the years that our some of our liberal friends have tried to convince themselves and us that God had no hand in this grand idea called America, and that our founders were mostly Godless hypocrites, unworthy of our admiration. I have spend another 4 wonderful days immersed in the true history of this country. I wish fervently that every American could come here, colonial Williamsburg. Just last night, we saw a play, "Jefferson and Adams", chronicalling the friendships of those two, that left me in tears and in awe. The most amazing thing I have ever seen. We also saw "the Marquis de Layfayette" in addition to Patrick Henry. The things they believed, said, predicted - chilling. Patrick Henry in particular knee exactly what would happen to our nation. He just thought it would only take a few generations. Other than that, he knew we would end up exactly where we are now. Heartbreaking, to know that we did not listen. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 2:33:13 GMT
I have lived near Colonial Williamsburg for almost 25 years and worked up there as well. I can honestly say I have never seen any emphasis placed on this: "I dare anyone who thinks that our country was not founded by men who had a deep and abiding faith in God, or that our constitution has no basis in judeo-Christian beliefs, to come to Colonial Williamsburg." Now when you go sit in Bruton Parish Church there are benches identified that were used by founding fathers, but other than that, I have no idea what you are sitting and listening to. Well then you must never have attended any of the "meet the nation builders" programs. I have now attended all but George Wythe. They all placed great emphasis on their faith in God. |
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wannapea
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Post by wannapea on Jul 8, 2014 3:17:36 GMT
Anyone can be moral, responsible and frugal without religion. And many people all over the globe are.
Perhaps you feel religion is of utmost importance. You seem to be desperate in your fervor to prove something here. But it's not really working, well other than with some other people that believe the same as you. Which brings me to a very important point about the good ole US of A. Not everyone believes as you do-many many many people are in fact, unbelievers. More and more every day, in fact.
Religious people have not cornered the market on morality (or responsibility).
""Oh! Lord! Do you think that a Protestant Popedom is annihilated in America? Do you recollect, or have you ever attended to the ecclesiastical Strifes in Maryland Pensilvania [sic], New York, and every part of New England? What a mercy it is that these People cannot whip and crop, and pillory and roast, as yet in the U.S.! If they could they would. . . . There is a germ of religion in human nature so strong that whenever an order of men can persuade the people by flattery or terror that they have salvation at their disposal, there can be no end to fraud, violence, or usurpation." - John Adams
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 8, 2014 3:38:00 GMT
Some founding fathers were Deists and believed in a creator but that's about it. Thomas Jefferson basically denied the divinity of Christ so I have a hard time thinking of him as the torchbearer of Judeo-Christian teachings for this country- although he believed in the teachings of Christ and felt he was indeed a Christian. But other founding fathers were Christians and did believe in Jesus as the Son of God. Yes, there was careful and specific purpose to not require any citizen or leader hold any specified religious faith. But the foundation of this nation- the belief that there are basic rights for all citizens that are endowed by a creator that no earthly government can give or take away, those founding beliefs stem from the Reformation and Enlightenment eras. So yes, this nation was founded upon Christian principles. Without the Reformation and the Enlightenment, our nation wouldn't have the same rights and liberties.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 8, 2014 3:42:28 GMT
Anyone can be moral, responsible and frugal without religion. And many people all over the globe are. Perhaps you feel religion is of utmost importance. You seem to be desperate in your fervor to prove something here. But it's not really working, well other than with some other people that believe the same as you. Which brings me to a very important point about the good ole US of A. Not everyone believes as you do-many many many people are in fact, unbelievers. More and more every day, in fact. Religious people have not cornered the market on morality (or responsibility). ""Oh! Lord! Do you think that a Protestant Popedom is annihilated in America? Do you recollect, or have you ever attended to the ecclesiastical Strifes in Maryland Pensilvania [sic], New York, and every part of New England? What a mercy it is that these People cannot whip and crop, and pillory and roast, as yet in the U.S.! If they could they would. . . . There is a germ of religion in human nature so strong that whenever an order of men can persuade the people by flattery or terror that they have salvation at their disposal, there can be no end to fraud, violence, or usurpation." - John Adams John Adams also said: "Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." and "The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence." So there's that. (Basically, Wannapea, your quote shows that Adams wasn't interested in promoting any specific denomination, but that the Christian principles were what our laws were based upon because they encourage conscience, temperance, frugality, industry, justice, kindness, charity, piety, love, and reverence to the Creator. He was one of many early American leaders who felt that all morality stems from Christian principles. While I know you disagree, you still can't change that many founding fathers really did believe that Christianity and/or reverence towards a divine Creator is what makes people "good".) |
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Post by ntsf on Jul 8, 2014 4:32:58 GMT
so we had founders who were well read, believers of God...but were humans. just like us. they were very well educated in greek and latin texts for the most part...but we don't uphold that in any importance...though I would think that most of the founders would say that those were essential texts of an educated man. they were creatures of their time and place...brilliant, foolish, argumentative, nasty to each other at times, human.
so we shouldn't put them on some pedestal of being more perfect beings....they created a country with a possibility of change and growth...so their writings are not sacred texts to be read as scripture or something...our constitution is sacred in some ways...but it was written by a particular group in a particular time...and they were willing to change from the status quo...and so should we be willing to change and grow as a country...and realize that participation in religion is more of a choice now...and more and more...especially the young adults are not choosing to participate.
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Post by rebelyelle on Jul 8, 2014 12:34:41 GMT
What ntsf said.
And Lynlam, I understand the point that you're trying to convey, and while it's where our country began, nearly two centuries have passed and society has CHANGED - both for better and for worse. Our founding fathers also believed that slavery and the oppression of women fell into step with their "religious" beliefs (I quote religious because really, who can TRULY know what was in their hearts?). Our society changed and grown into one that no longer accepts either of those beliefs, and our constitution has subsequently changed to reflect that. Christianity does not own the rights to morality, and I think you need to accept that good, kind, frugal, responsible, patriotic citizens come in all different believing and non-beliving flavors. I will not argue that our Constitution's principles were derived from Christian values, but I still maintain that that point is irrelevant today - again, if our forefathers wanted to create a nation devoted specifically to Christian values, they would have done just that, and they didn't.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 8, 2014 17:03:53 GMT
While many of the Founding Fathers were slave owners, most felt the institution of slavery would naturally peter out. Many didn't feel it was worth dividing up a newly formed union over an issue that they expected to go away on its own. When you're trying to ratify a document that will govern 13 states with 13 different priorities, purposefully being divisive just isn't going to get you anywhere. And, it's been pointed out that the founding fathers were not perfect. Slavery was a devastating side effect thrust on our country because of England's imperialism. But slavery wasn't a "new" idea at all. It was around forever. Any time a place had been conquered, the people became slaves of the victors. At the time of the Founding Fathers, the idea that "all men are created equal" was very new. I think that the Founding Fathers were just starting to realize the power of that phrase and were seeing how it applied to average white men. Of course it took a while to expand the meaning of the phrase to those who were different from the majority of the Founding Fathers. However, in spite of their inability to see beyond their personal experiences as colonists shedding an oppressing, far-away government, they foresaw an end to slavery on the horizon and even included a deadline on how long the Southern states had until the discussion could come up in Congress. They were integral in making progress- in laying the foundation that allowed slavery to eventually become socially unacceptable after centuries of it being normal. The seed they planted was "all men are created equal" and all seeds need time and tending to in order to take root and grow.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 17:39:22 GMT
 I'd really have to see actual quotes to believe this. It sounds like another one of your hyperbolic overreactions. What you, and some other insecure Christians can't seem to grasp, is that most moral principles are not exclusive to Christianity. Many of the world's religions espouse pretty much the same moral values as Christianity. It really doesn't matter if the FF were Christians or not. They recognized and acknowledged that not everyone had to believe the same things they did, and they were very careful and deliberate about trying to ensure freedom of religion for everyone-not just Christians. I have seen some very well-reasoned arguments on both sides of the "were our FF Christians?" debate. Your diatribe here is definitely not one of them. Actors in a show inserting their personal opinions into said show? That's all it takes to convince you that you're right?  I have no problem with some of our FF being Christians. I have no problem with them espousing the more noble principles of Christianity. I do have a big problem with people like you who aren't satisfied with that, and want to twist what the FF did into something else entirely. |
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