BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jan 14, 2015 19:03:50 GMT
missmiss Yes, I am in the UK - where are you? I am guessing the US. To answer your question, yes I do trust our government! I may not agree with everything they do, want to do or say but on the whole I trust that our government is made up of people who believe in this country and try to do their best for it. Nothing here can be put through underhand, we have so many checks and balances to prevent corrupt government.....and we also have The Queen keeping a watching brief for us!  I'm really not so cynical about the government system here that I would believe that they never told the truth, never did the best for the Country as seen at the time. As I said, I may not agree with some of it sometimes but I certainly do not think that all members of government here are untrustworthy.
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:06:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 19:05:02 GMT
First, to be very clear, I'm not outraged or upset. I thought it would be interesting to discuss. IMO (and for the record I am not a French lawmaker) there's no difference between a cartoon depicting an arm salute vs. a cartoon of a bare assed Muhammad. Yes, it's against the law (and should be against the law) to incite violence. But how is a cartoon of an arm salute inciting violence? It's gross...it's offensive...I GET what it means, obviously...but I don't think it incites violence. Why is the arm salute so bad and the bare assed Muhammad celebrated? It seems like a complete double standard. Free speech for some criminal charges for others. Yes...their country...their laws. To copy a quote from your article: "Dieudonne, a comic who popularized arrm gesture that resembles a Nazi salute and who has been convicted repeatedly of racism and anti-Semitism, is no stranger to controversy. His provocative performances were banned last year but he has a core following among France's disaffected youth." #1 - Dieudonne has already been convicted of racism and anti-semitism numerous times. He has a criminal record in this area. Maybe you don't understand why it is against the law in France, but the legal system there has been clear that his actions are illegal. #2 - He apparently has cultivated a following amongst a group that could be incited to violence. #3 - finally, if you don't understand the difference between lampooning a religious leader and promoting a hate group, that is your loss. Thank heaven, I guess, that you are lucky enough that you don't understand on a basic gut level the whole premise of Nazi ideology. Go walk through the Holocaust Museum in DC or Yad Vashem in Israel and THEN tell me you don't get why popularizing a Nazi salute is hate speech. But when this happened, and I was outspoken against the cartoon, people told me that we cannot allow ourselves to be silenced because what we say (or draw) may be offensive to someone else. It's a slippery slope if we start silencing people who believe differently, it's not up for us to decide that what offends us must offend others. (paraphrasing here)
So it seems that's now changed. (by both French law and at least your opinion, Elaine LOL...singling you out here  ) It appears people can be silenced if their opinions (or cartoons) offend someone and that's A-OK.
You said (in #2) that he's cultivated a following amongst a group that could be incited to violence. The article says he has a core following of dissatisfied youth. Do you think it's a bit of a jump to state that this "core following of dissatisfied youth" "could be incited to violence"? I think it's a bit of a stretch. Do you have any evidence that his group of dissatisfied youth have been violent or even broken the law?
I am very much Pro Israel and still think that this is a double standard. I very well may be alone here...and that's okay.
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Post by lucyg on Jan 14, 2015 19:10:39 GMT
Jenny, I believe you are not taking into account France's experience during WWII and its long history of anti-Semitism. You also may not be aware that the French Vichy government eagerly handed over the country's Jews to the Germans. France has a bit to make up for in the anti-Semitism department.
So if France (along with other European countries) has made a choice to have very strict laws against pro-Nazi and anti-Jewish expression, it's really not up to any of us to pass judgment. Yes, the U.S. allows more freedom of speech in those areas. No, I don't find it hypocritical that the French don't. Yes, they still choose to allow more latitude in other areas.
Their country, their history, their laws. For reals, not just lip service.
ETA everyone else posted while I was just trying to write my post! bleah!
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:06:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 19:11:32 GMT
Edelman is a PR firm. I read a little about Richard Edelman the owner and CEO. He seems to have a certain amount of distrust for the government. But his main focus is marketing. I don't think you could call their report from a disinterested 3rd party. |
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:06:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 19:49:11 GMT
Brigitte Bardot has been prosecuted under the "hate speech" laws as many as five times. Those kinds of laws in France are just one of the reasons I'm glad I don't live there. Here's an article about one of the prosecutions. The things she said were very mild, IMO, and stuff you hear here all the time. |
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Post by hop2 on Jan 14, 2015 20:15:47 GMT
First, to be very clear, I'm not outraged or upset. I thought it would be interesting to discuss. IMO (and for the record I am not a French lawmaker) there's no difference between a cartoon depicting an arm salute vs. a cartoon of a bare assed Muhammad. Yes, it's against the law (and should be against the law) to incite violence. But how is a cartoon of an arm salute inciting violence? It's gross...it's offensive...I GET what it means, obviously...but I don't think it incites violence. Why is the arm salute so bad and the bare assed Muhammad celebrated? It seems like a complete double standard. Free speech for some criminal charges for others. Yes...their country...their laws. The difference is that France as a country lived thru the atrocities forced upon them by the Nazi regime, the people actually lived thru these terrors. How can 'we' the outside world tell them how they should feel about it, as a nation, as a whole. It has to do with their national experience and history of the entire nation. It references actual real atrocities that happened. You really can't see the difference? |
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jan 14, 2015 20:23:48 GMT
Brigitte Bardot has been prosecuted under the "hate speech" laws as many as five times. Those kinds of laws in France are just one of the reasons I'm glad I don't live there. Here's an article about one of the prosecutions. The things she said were very mild, IMO, and stuff you hear here all the time. Yes, I agree that what she said is similar to what is heard privately all the time from some people all over the world - including in France - but a question for you! Would any of the States or the government in the US still be happy to tolerate the kind of thing she says regarding Islam and Muslims and still consider it mild when it's repeatedly published, and said publicly at rallies time after time? |
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Post by jonda1974 on Jan 14, 2015 20:25:52 GMT
I am with the majority that it is France, and they have the right to write laws as they see fit. I was trying to find a link to the anti-semitic protests that took place over the summer in France, and what type of arrests were made then, but haven't been able to find anything with statistics at the moment. The only thing I found was this Newsweek article. But it doesn't mention arrests. I can also see Jenny's point of double standard, but I do think that in the aftermath of a terrorist attack it is natural to have a stronger approach to instances a country may feel could incite violence. I was reading about the 4 year prison sentence given to a drunk man who resisted arrest and praised the terror attacks. But it was unclear which offense the length of conviction was for. Link |
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Post by elaine on Jan 14, 2015 20:26:37 GMT
@gajenny, given that terrorist groups target disaffected youth in their recruiting efforts, I don't think that it is a huge stretch to believe that disaffected youth who follow a comic that promotes Nazi ideology could be incited to violence. I will guess that the French police and legal system take that into account when assessing his intent in judging whether or not his comments and cartoons are racist, anti-Semitic, and qualify as hate speech. From an article on terrorism put out by the American Psychological Association: link to the article The bottom line for me is that it is clear to me that a cartoon promoting Nazi ideology as a good thing and a cartoon lampooning a religious figure are NOT the same thing when questioning whether or not they are examples of hate speech. They may both be equally offensive to you (and others), but that doesn't mean they both equally meet the definition of hate speech as set down by France. |
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:06:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 20:36:21 GMT
The government may not like what she said, but here she would not be threatened with jail time or being fined.
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mimima
Drama Llama
Stay Gold, Ponyboy
Posts: 5,213 
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Post by mimima on Jan 14, 2015 20:51:03 GMT
I really don't think you can frame France's behavior with the US understanding of Free Speech - I've been contemplating that this entire time.
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) It appears people can be silenced if their opinions (or cartoons) offend someone and that's A-OK. 
