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Post by librarylady on Mar 11, 2015 22:35:37 GMT
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raindancer
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Jun 26, 2014 20:10:29 GMT
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Post by raindancer on Mar 11, 2015 22:37:01 GMT
I heard one of the authors speak to this and he was very clear that it wasn't leading to narcissistic personality disorder, but rather narcissism, and he stated that they are very different things. Just FYI for that headline/article.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Mar 11, 2015 22:43:03 GMT
I can honestly say that this is the biggest cultural shift I've seen during the 30 years I've worked in education (parents' views of their kids' abilities, how they communicate that to their kids, and how that shapes the kids themselves).
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Post by mirabelleswalker on Mar 11, 2015 22:43:49 GMT
Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn?
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mallie
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Post by mallie on Mar 11, 2015 22:45:26 GMT
I absolutely believe we are creating a generation of narcissists.
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Post by gar on Mar 11, 2015 22:49:59 GMT
Yes, I do.
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Post by Ryann on Mar 11, 2015 22:51:12 GMT
Yes, yes, yes!
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Mar 11, 2015 23:01:53 GMT
Another thought: Twenty years ago, I remember hearing a speaker who warned us (teachers) not to praise too much lest students become "praise junkies." So, the concern then was dependence on praise and extrinsic motivation, and underdevelopment of intrinsic motivation. The OP's article illustrates how the effects have mushroomed beyond that, and include personality concerns.
Okay, I'll stop now.
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Post by momstime on Mar 11, 2015 23:07:27 GMT
I have not read the linked article, but I have been teaching for many, many years. I have always believed that self worth comes from self and risk, and shameless praise hurts self worth over the long haul. Case in point: I teach pre-k. I work hard to NOT blindly praise kids' work. This is getting so frustratingly difficult lately, as kids just cannot assess their own work without an adult's input
Child: Look at my painting. Do you like it? Me: You used a lot of colors. Do you like it? Child: Do you? Me: I want to know what you think of it Child: Is it the prettiest painting you've ever seen? Me: Do you think it is the prettiest painting you've ever seen? Child: Do you? Me: I hope you like it Child: Am I the best artist ever? Me: Do you think you are the best artist ever? Child: Do you?
And at some point I just say enough already to myself and say, "I really like it" or "You are a terrific artist"...or whatever, and I want to punch myself in the face in failure when the child turns around and says, "But am I the BEST artist ever?"
At that point I want to punch the parents. This is repeated to infinity each and every day.
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scrapngranny
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Jun 25, 2014 23:21:30 GMT
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Post by scrapngranny on Mar 11, 2015 23:29:35 GMT
Yes we are raising very narcissistic children. I'm child of the 60s and I'm not sure when the tide turned or what made it turn. Our parents loved us, cared for us, but we were not extensions of our parents, they had their own identity. I was an only child with a stay at home mom, but she was not up in my every movement. If I picked last for dodge ball,tough luck, if someone called me four eyes, deal. Now if our precious darlings aren't 100% happy, 100% of the time we must rush in and fix it. The over involved helicopter parent has created a children that think the universe begins and ends with them. Lord only knows how this generation will raise their kids.
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Post by moveablefeast on Mar 11, 2015 23:43:37 GMT
Yes and no.
I think there is a balance to be reached between praising a child's abilities and elevating a child's work above what is appropriate. I think we all want better for our kids than what we had, and we want them to achieve because we feel that is how they will be successful and fulfilled in life. We just take it too far sometimes.
I am so totally an "everybody gets a participation ribbon" kind of person. I am a terrible judge at things like dance and art because I want to give one kid a "great use of color" award and another a "put on my brave face after I fell" award and another a "I showed up when I didn't want to" award. I like to see the winner in every person, especially children. It's just my nature. And it isn't how competition goes.
But what I've learned is that I don't have to treat life like a competition. My DD is not the best ballerina in her studio but she dances with heart, so I tell her I could really see her giving it her best and that she has great passion in the studio, and I tell her she dances so beautifully. She isn't the best dancer and I don't tell her she is. I tell her I can see her heart when she gives it her best - and I love it.
She's not the smartest kid in her school, either, but I tell her I am proud of every achievement and every effort. I am proud of her when she does her best and you better believe I will celebrate every effort even if the result is mediocre. Which it sometimes is. But if she goes in there and gives it a solid try? I will celebrate it like a gold medal. Why wouldn't i? Not every piece of art or test score or project will be the best ever. I've told her many times that it won't always be and doesn't need to be the best - it just has to be her best effort.
I also tell her when other kids do things great - when I notice another dancer in her class master a step, when a friend of ours has an achievement in school. We celebrate other people's achievements too. We give out a lot a lot a lot of compliments.
I want to instill in her a sense of her own greatness. Because she is great - she's just not always the best at stuff. But I don't want herself to be her only focus. There is greatness in compassion and the ability to encourage others even at your own expense just as much as there is greatness in achievement. I think kids are healthiest when they can have both.
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Post by 950nancy on Mar 11, 2015 23:46:16 GMT
I see lots of different parenting styles as a teacher. I don't think we have completely shifted as parents. I have always told my personal children and my classroom children that they CAN do something, but that is completely up to them.
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raindancer
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Post by raindancer on Mar 11, 2015 23:48:37 GMT
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Post by epeanymous on Mar 11, 2015 23:53:46 GMT
I don't think it is that the parents are misparenting the kids to be narcissists. I think the parents are narcissists. They think of the kids as extensions of themselves rather than as fully separate people, because the parents are narcissists, and they need to think of the kids as exceptional because the kids represent them, so if the kids are exceptional, then it is because the parents are exceptional, duh.
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raindancer
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Post by raindancer on Mar 12, 2015 0:00:24 GMT
Yes we are raising very narcissistic children. I'm child of the 60s and I'm not sure when the tide turned or what made it turn. Our parents loved us, cared for us, but we were not extensions of our parents, they had their own identity. I was an only child with a stay at home mom, but she was not up in my every movement. If I picked last for dodge ball,tough luck, if someone called me four eyes, deal. Now if our precious darlings aren't 100% happy, 100% of the time we must rush in and fix it. The over involved helicopter parent has created a children that think the universe begins and ends with them. Lord only knows how this generation will raise their kids. I think this is interesting. Because I distinctly recall my grandmother complaining all the time about your generation. Your generation didn't value tradition, you were going to doom the very fabric of our society. And your parenting skills. Oy. Drugs, sex and rock n roll. Kids of the 80's were a disaster all thanks to your generations lack of parenting skills. You let us listen to rock and watch Madonna on MTV for crying out loud. What on earth were you thinking!?
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Aug 18, 2025 20:03:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 0:10:41 GMT
I have not read the linked article, but I have been teaching for many, many years. I have always believed that self worth comes from self and risk, and shameless praise hurts self worth over the long haul. Case in point: I teach pre-k. I work hard to NOT blindly praise kids' work. This is getting so frustratingly difficult lately, as kids just cannot assess their own work without an adult's input Child: Look at my painting. Do you like it? Me: You used a lot of colors. Do you like it? Child: Do you? Me: I want to know what you think of it Child: Is it the prettiest painting you've ever seen? Me: Do you think it is the prettiest painting you've ever seen? Child: Do you? Me: I hope you like it Child: Am I the best artist ever? Me: Do you think you are the best artist ever? Child: Do you? And at some point I just say enough already to myself and say, "I really like it" or "You are a terrific artist"...or whatever, and I want to punch myself in the face in failure when the child turns around and says, "But am I the BEST artist ever?" At that point I want to punch the parents. This is repeated to infinity each and every day. Are you allowed to say no, that you don't think that?
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Post by alittleintrepid on Mar 12, 2015 0:20:03 GMT
Child: Look at my painting. Do you like it? Me: You used a lot of colors. Do you like it? Child: Do you? Me: I want to know what you think of it Child: Is it the prettiest painting you've ever seen? Me: Do you think it is the prettiest painting you've ever seen? Child: Do you? Me: I hope you like it Child: Am I the best artist ever? Me: Do you think you are the best artist ever? Child: Do you? This whole conversation is a bit like "who's on first" and doesn't teach a preschooler natural discussion, IMHO. Why couldn't you just reply "what's important is that you like it" when they first ask?
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Post by epeanymous on Mar 12, 2015 0:25:38 GMT
Yes we are raising very narcissistic children. I'm child of the 60s and I'm not sure when the tide turned or what made it turn. Our parents loved us, cared for us, but we were not extensions of our parents, they had their own identity. I was an only child with a stay at home mom, but she was not up in my every movement. If I picked last for dodge ball,tough luck, if someone called me four eyes, deal. Now if our precious darlings aren't 100% happy, 100% of the time we must rush in and fix it. The over involved helicopter parent has created a children that think the universe begins and ends with them. Lord only knows how this generation will raise their kids. I think this is interesting. Because I distinctly recall my grandmother complaining all the time about your generation. Your generation didn't value tradition, you were going to doom the very fabric of our society. And your parenting skills. Oy. Drugs, sex and rock n roll. Kids of the 80's were a disaster all thanks to your generations lack of parenting skills. You let us listen to rock and watch Madonna on MTV for crying out loud. What on earth were you thinking!? Ha ha, I am a child of the 70s/80s and my grandmother lived with us through part of my youth; I heard this all, I heard this all!
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raindancer
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Post by raindancer on Mar 12, 2015 0:33:31 GMT
I think this is interesting. Because I distinctly recall my grandmother complaining all the time about your generation. Your generation didn't value tradition, you were going to doom the very fabric of our society. And your parenting skills. Oy. Drugs, sex and rock n roll. Kids of the 80's were a disaster all thanks to your generations lack of parenting skills. You let us listen to rock and watch Madonna on MTV for crying out loud. What on earth were you thinking!? Ha ha, I am a child of the 70s/80s and my grandmother lived with us through part of my youth; I heard this all, I heard this all! Mine lived down the street.  LOL. My poor parents heard it all. And also I heard my mom talking with other moms about how "other people" allowed these things but *they* did not.
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Post by scrapsotime on Mar 12, 2015 0:42:03 GMT
Ha ha, I am a child of the 70s/80s and my grandmother lived with us through part of my youth; I heard this all, I heard this all! Mine lived down the street.  LOL. My poor parents heard it all. And also I heard my mom talking with other moms about how "other people" allowed these things but *they* did not. I'm a child of the 60s/70s. My grandmother called us heathens on several occasions. lol
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AmeliaBloomer
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Mar 12, 2015 0:44:14 GMT
I don't think it is that the parents are misparenting the kids to be narcissists. I think the parents are narcissists. They think of the kids as extensions of themselves rather than as fully separate people, because the parents are narcissists, and they need to think of the kids as exceptional because the kids represent them, so if the kids are exceptional, then it is because the parents are exceptional, duh. Tangent: there's research that indicates that fathers more often view their children as extensions of their own egos than do mothers. So, fathers are more apt to perceive themselves as flawed if their child is flawed. I originally read this in the context of parents' reactions to a child with a disability. Mothers tend to view the disability as separate from their own identity; therefore, they're often more willing to seek diagnosis and services. This is old literature - maybe 25-30 years? In my experience, it certainly rings true - often, not always - with parents of my disabled students. But professionally, personally, and socially, I don't see much of a gender difference in parents who have very high opinions of their non-disabled kids. I wonder if there's any new research about parent gender as it relates to children as extensions of one's ego. (I feel like I'm following you around this board today.  )
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Post by anxiousmom on Mar 12, 2015 2:00:23 GMT
My mother and I have had this very discussion, not using the term narcissist, but how parenting has changed between her raising me and me raising the boys. She calls it the parenting by explanation syndrome. Her thought is that some where along the line the "because I said so" turned into "no, that behavior is not okay because..."
Along with that came the trophy for participation, and the parent who blames everyone but the child for whatever issues the child has, and the over praising of every single thing.
In a lot of ways I agree with her. But at the same time, I see SO many kids with the most amazing attitudes that I have to think that there is some balance out there.
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:03:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 2:39:41 GMT
Yes we are raising very narcissistic children. I'm child of the 60s and I'm not sure when the tide turned or what made it turn. Our parents loved us, cared for us, but we were not extensions of our parents, they had their own identity. I was an only child with a stay at home mom, but she was not up in my every movement. If I picked last for dodge ball,tough luck, if someone called me four eyes, deal. Now if our precious darlings aren't 100% happy, 100% of the time we must rush in and fix it. The over involved helicopter parent has created a children that think the universe begins and ends with them. Lord only knows how this generation will raise their kids. I think this is interesting. Because I distinctly recall my grandmother complaining all the time about your generation. Your generation didn't value tradition, you were going to doom the very fabric of our society. And your parenting skills. Oy. Drugs, sex and rock n roll. Kids of the 80's were a disaster all thanks to your generations lack of parenting skills. You let us listen to rock and watch Madonna on MTV for crying out loud. What on earth were you thinking!? Exactly. This kind of thinking has gone on since the beginning of mankind. Each generation feels the younger one is too spoiled, too soft, too crazy, too much not like them. And it goes on and on.
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Post by SabrinaM on Mar 12, 2015 2:55:37 GMT
I grew up in a very critical household. My mom hated my weight and never missed an opportunity to remind me. While I haven't gone to the opposite end of the spectrum with the constant praise, I do try to maintain a balance between raising confident children and raising egomaniacs.  My oldest was singing one day in the car and she mentioned that she thought she sounded as good as Carrie Underwood. She still reminds me that I "crushed her spirit" (or whatever) by giving her a more realistic opinion of her singing abilities. While I wasn't scathing in my feedback, I pretty much let her know that everyone thinks they sound great singing in the car with the music blaring. 
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Post by scrappinjen on Mar 12, 2015 3:23:10 GMT
My grandmother taught me when we give too much feedback to children they hear us rating and defining them. What they need to learn is to measure and define themselves to have self worth. In other words, Self worth can't be given to a child. My daughter dances and I watch the other parents praising effort and looking for something to point out and positive to say. While I understand their intent is good hearted-I still feel they are teaching the child to look outside for reinforcement instead of intrinsically growing and feeling worthy. Does that lead to narcissism? I am not sure ...but I think it hinders them from learning to feel comfortable in their own skin. I still reach out to my kids positively however I weigh my words and do try to not over use the good job/good effort phrases I hear so often from other parents.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 3:37:36 GMT
i think its very difficult to look at generations without looking at the one before it and with that said its also very hard to criticize each generation on it's own without acknowledging the one before contributed to the problems how parents raise their kids now is a reflection on how they were raised and how they were raised is a reflection on how their parents were raised each generation is trying to eradicate the damage from the previous one and unfortunately they seem to overcompensate in the process if this generation are narcissists then it stands to reason they will raise martyrs  gosh, maybe catholic guilt will make a come back!
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Grom Pea
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Post by Grom Pea on Mar 12, 2015 3:47:50 GMT
I don't think it is that the parents are misparenting the kids to be narcissists. I think the parents are narcissists. They think of the kids as extensions of themselves rather than as fully separate people, because the parents are narcissists, and they need to think of the kids as exceptional because the kids represent them, so if the kids are exceptional, then it is because the parents are exceptional, duh. Tangent: there's research that indicates that fathers more often view their children as extensions of their own egos than do mothers. So, fathers are more apt to perceive themselves as flawed if their child is flawed. I originally read this in the context of parents' reactions to a child with a disability. Mothers tend to view the disability as separate from their own identity; therefore, they're often more willing to seek diagnosis and services. This is old literature - maybe 25-30 years? In my experience, it certainly rings true - often, not always - with parents of my disabled students. But professionally, personally, and socially, I don't see much of a gender difference in parents who have very high opinions of their non-disabled kids. I wonder if there's any new research about parent gender as it relates to children as extensions of one's ego. (I feel like I'm following you around this board today.  ) This really resonates with me, our son was recently diagnosed on the autism spectrum and dh at first was very skeptical of the diagnosis and now that he's been taking ds to speech therapy and ot, he often comes back and describes how the only reason ds isn't able to do something is because we have failed as parents. I don't understand why he feels that way when it's entirely possible that ds just has trouble learning some of the things that for naturally for other children... He also learned some things really early, like numbers because that was more interesting to him than other words. I really see it as my son has different strengths than other kids and dh makes it sound like we've been terrible parents. My friend even pointed it out saying that dh's parents must have have been really negative and that's why dh is really hard on himself about something that just happened that is not really our fault. That aside I do wonder if the trophy for everyone was really a disservice, I won two awards in middle school and they took the plaque away and discontinued the awards because they said it hurt the self esteem of those who did not win, whereas I was thinking aren't those things supposed to motivate you to try to win the award if you want one that much?
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Post by mirabelleswalker on Mar 12, 2015 3:52:52 GMT
My grandmother taught me when we give too much feedback to children they hear us rating and defining them. What they need to learn is to measure and define themselves to have self worth. In other words, Self worth can't be given to a child. My daughter dances and I watch the other parents praising effort and looking for something to point out and positive to say. While I understand their intent is good hearted-I still feel they are teaching the child to look outside for reinforcement instead of intrinsically growing and feeling worthy. Does that lead to narcissism? I am not sure ...but I think it hinders them from learning to feel comfortable in their own skin. I still reach out to my kids positively however I weigh my words and do try to not over use the good job/good effort phrases I hear so often from other parents. There's a line in the movie Whiplash to the effect that the words "good job" are the most dangerous words in the English language. I agree for a number of reasons, but mostly because it is so vague and is usually said so mindlessly. It's like the adults in Charlie Brown--waaaa, waaaa waaaa waaaa. Being specific and praising the effort goes a longer way, and it does help to build intrinsic motivation and confidence. Praising the outcome, not so much. What I think is a real problem is praising, repraising, re-repraising, to the point of a child thinking they should be constantly praised for things that they should already be doing or should do anyway. The first two or three times makes sense. Beyond that, you're just fostering a praise junkie.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 4:01:11 GMT
In the abstract, as an over-generalization? Yes, we already have. They are commonly called Millenials.
Don't even get me started.
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scrapaddie
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Jul 8, 2014 20:17:31 GMT
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Post by scrapaddie on Mar 12, 2015 4:05:58 GMT
This makes me think of the people who audition for American Idol. The ones that can't sing at all, but Have always been told they are great by their families! Then they get up there and can't carry a tune!
Obviously, praise has been given to those people for nonexistent talent, and it has hurt them.
On the other hand, I taught high school and had many many kids who are able to accept constructive criticism. When they fail they are naturally disappointed but they pick themselves up and try again. There must be some good parents out there!
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