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Post by foolana on Apr 28, 2015 16:59:42 GMT
Because you seem intent, throughout this whole thread, to simply hone in on the circumstances of Mr. Gray's death, which everyone here has agreed was criminally wrong, and somewhat dismiss the fact that a faction of violent thugs are determined to destroy as much of the city as they can, using Mr. Gray's death as an excuse. People aren't condoning what happened to Mr. Gray; they're condemning the criminal behavior of the thugs. And, no, of course the investigation won't set Mr. Gray's loved ones world back on axis; by the same token, destroying the city won't bring him back either. You are right my comments here were to continue to remind those so outraged about rioting and looting that there is something else to be outraged about. And I disagree that everyone here acknowledges that what happened to Gray is criminal and worthy of even the same degree of outrage. That is abundantly clear in this thread and in many others where the deaths of black men are discussed. A pea can post about her son being arrested for rape and everyone rallies but when a person of color dies on the street before even being charged the consensus is "let's get the facts first" or as rampant in this thread deflection shown in statements like "Wait you mean to tell me you are okay with rioting", "He had a rap sheet a mile long", "Look at the other "thugs" over there stealing toilet paper in the "name" of Gray", "Darren Wilson's life is ruined" etc This is absolutely true. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
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marianne
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Post by marianne on Apr 28, 2015 17:03:39 GMT
It should be noted here, that the vast majority of protesters in Baltimore have been peaceful; the rioting and destruction has been caused by a segment of punks and thugs. As I type, the good citizens of Baltimore are in the burned out CVS and on the streets, helping to clean up the mess. Many, many people...
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Post by foolana on Apr 28, 2015 17:04:02 GMT
Last night and this morning, I have been viewing images online from the Civil Rights movement from the 60's.
Those men and women (white and black) were so brave. When faced with fire hoses, biting dogs, aggressive and violent policemen, how did they respond? Peacefully. They did not respond with violence.
I wish that today, the young people across our nation revisited some of the pictures and some of the history that their parents/grandparents made and reassess their own behavior and attitudes. Absolutely true. I believe the real heroes from last night were the brave firefighters who were caught in the middle of a dangerous and untenable situation but continued to do their job and saved many properties and people from being destroyed. To me, firefighters will always be heroes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 17:11:54 GMT
A friend posted this quote from MLK and I thought that it was thought-provoking.
"It is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard." Martin Luther King, Jr. 1968
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 17:29:08 GMT
It should be noted here, that the vast majority of protesters in Baltimore have been peaceful; the rioting and destruction has been caused by a segment of punks and thugs. As I type, the good citizens of Baltimore are in the burned out CVS and on the streets, helping to clean up the mess. Many, many people... Yes this is what's being lost and makes me very sad. It's a tiny minority that are being violent and looting.
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Post by blondiec47 on Apr 28, 2015 17:39:36 GMT
It should be noted here, that the vast majority of protesters in Baltimore have been peaceful; the rioting and destruction has been caused by a segment of punks and thugs. As I type, the good citizens of Baltimore are in the burned out CVS and on the streets, helping to clean up the mess. Many, many people... Yes this is what's being lost and makes me very sad. It's a tiny minority that are being violent and looting. I am finally seeing this side of the story show up on my Facebook news feed, so it is getting out there. Unfortunately the major news outlets think sensationalism brings viewers and money. My favorite thing last night was Fox News showing the neighbors marching and singing trying to take their neighborhood back.
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NoWomanNoCry
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Post by NoWomanNoCry on Apr 28, 2015 17:40:03 GMT
In one of my police wife groups a lot of the ladies are down that way and their DHs work there. They are all reporting theirs DHs have been hit with bricks, bottles with fire among other stuff. One woman said her DH dept can't afford the proper gear for something like this so he is out there in regular uniform. Talk is going around where my DH works about asking them to volunteer to go down there since we're a little less than 2hrs away. I really am nervous for him to go if that happens. His Kevlar vest is outdated by many years and we can't afford a new one. No slam on you or anything, but how can one not afford it? To me in that situation, it is life or death and would make sure that somehow a vest was bought, because the alternative would be horrific. Imagine being at a funeral and hearing the words "we couldn't afford a new vest" His expired at a bad time for us (financially) which we are still in. Oh and before you or anyone else tells me we should cut out this or that. We have no cable or home internet (we use data on our phone) we don't go vacations. We're also hoping to hear something back soon in regards to something in his dept which will give him a vest. So your question may not have been a slam but it felt very judgmental.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Apr 28, 2015 17:43:17 GMT
A friend posted this quote from MLK and I thought that it was thought-provoking. "It is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard." Martin Luther King, Jr. 1968 An ex-boyfriend emailed me that quote this morning. Actually made me cry as the last time I saw him he called me a racially charged name and broke my sunglasses. Oddly enough we were both students in Baltimore at the time.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 17:43:20 GMT
It should be noted here, that the vast majority of protesters in Baltimore have been peaceful; the rioting and destruction has been caused by a segment of punks and thugs. As I type, the good citizens of Baltimore are in the burned out CVS and on the streets, helping to clean up the mess. Many, many people... It should also be noted that the peaceful protests were getting results. The DOJ opened its investigation last week about this time. The spotlight of the nation was being focused on the Baltimore police department and what happened to Freddie Gray. The looting and destruction have taken that focus off Gray. That is very, very unfortunate. I hope that common sense will prevail soon and the violence ends.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 17:46:22 GMT
A friend posted this quote from MLK and I thought that it was thought-provoking. "It is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard." Martin Luther King, Jr. 1968 An ex-boyfriend emailed me that quote this morning. Actually made me cry as the last time I saw him he called me a racially charged name and broke my sunglasses. Oddly enough we were both students in Baltimore at the time. Was he trying to use Dr. King's quote to justify his violence toward you? Or was he simply commenting on the Baltimore riots?
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thatgirlintexas
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Post by thatgirlintexas on Apr 28, 2015 18:04:58 GMT
^^^ so with that, you're saying the police (and their lack of training, whatever) are to blame for this? They are the root cause of people looting, ransacking, and destroying their own city?? How about 'people should do what's RIGHT and NOT break the law??' Maybe something about 'protesting peacefully is a better way to get your point across than destroying where you live?' Is any of that in there somewhere? Or is there no responsibility on the general public whatsoever to have decent morals and know right from wrong?? This post isn't directed at me but yes I'll say it. I believe the police of Baltimore are part of the reason there is rioting. Why? Because the rioting wouldn't have happen if Freddie Gray hadn't died from injuries suffered while in police custody. The Baltimore police have a history of brutality and civil rights violations. Just like Ferguson the death of a person at the hands of a police force that is no longer trusted is just the tipping point of a much larger problem.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Apr 28, 2015 18:16:07 GMT
"Or is there no responsibility on the general public whatsoever to have decent morals and know right from wrong??"
^^^ you didn't answer this part of my post... do morals and knowing right from wrong only apply to the police force, or do they apply to the general populace as well?
Obviously I think one way about this but others seem to think differently.
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Post by anxiousmom on Apr 28, 2015 18:18:34 GMT
Yes this is what's being lost and makes me very sad. It's a tiny minority that are being violent and looting. I am finally seeing this side of the story show up on my Facebook news feed, so it is getting out there. Unfortunately the major news outlets think sensationalism brings viewers and money. My favorite thing last night was Fox News showing the neighbors marching and singing trying to take their neighborhood back. I thought one of the more moving things I have seen was the older Vietnam vet who stood in front of the line of police officers shout "GO GO" to the hooligans on the street who were coming at the police. And the mom. I loved the mom dragging her kid off the streets.
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NoWomanNoCry
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Post by NoWomanNoCry on Apr 28, 2015 18:20:54 GMT
A friend posted this quote from MLK and I thought that it was thought-provoking. "It is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard." Martin Luther King, Jr. 1968 An ex-boyfriend emailed me that quote this morning. Actually made me cry as the last time I saw him he called me a racially charged name and broke my sunglasses. Oddly enough we were both students in Baltimore at the time. That's awful. I'm really sorry he did that to you.
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Post by compwalla on Apr 28, 2015 18:23:41 GMT
I think if the police have been killing people in your community with impunity for years then maybe feeling smashy about things is a natural reaction. How many bodies does it take before people - of color and otherwise - stand up and say enough? How many old ladies have to get tazed to death? How many unarmed children playing in the park need to be shot? How many handcuffed and completely subdued young men have to suffocate and die while cops laugh at them? How many times does a resident have to get pulled over in his own fucking neighborhood for driving while black? I am not shocked people are puppy-kicking mad about it.
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thatgirlintexas
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Post by thatgirlintexas on Apr 28, 2015 18:36:20 GMT
"Or is there no responsibility on the general public whatsoever to have decent morals and know right from wrong??" ^^^ you didn't answer this part of my post... do morals and knowing right from wrong only apply to the police force, or do they apply to the general populace as well? Obviously I think one way about this but others seem to think differently. I'm getting the impression that you are looking at this from a right/wrong moral issue. That rioting is breaking the law so it shouldn't be done. That just because the police force acts with brutality others should not. But let me ask you this question, if the very people who are tasked with upholding the law and protecting citizens can't do it without brutality why must I be the one to show restraint?
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janeliz
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Post by janeliz on Apr 28, 2015 18:44:09 GMT
Freddie Gray isn't the first Baltimore citizen to be taken on one of these "rough rides". The city has paid out quite a bit of money over the years to people injured in police vans.
You'll never hear me say I support violence or looting in any form. I believe this wouldn't be happening, however, if the people of Baltimore weren't at the mercy of a police department that failed miserably in policing itself.
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Post by blondiec47 on Apr 28, 2015 18:44:36 GMT
"Or is there no responsibility on the general public whatsoever to have decent morals and know right from wrong??" ^^^ you didn't answer this part of my post... do morals and knowing right from wrong only apply to the police force, or do they apply to the general populace as well? Obviously I think one way about this but others seem to think differently. I'm getting the impression that you are looking at this from a right/wrong moral issue. That rioting is breaking the law so it shouldn't be done. That just because the police force acts with brutality others should not. But let me ask you this question, if the very people who are tasked with upholding the law and protecting citizens can't do it without brutality why must I be the one to show restraint? Because 2 wrongs don't make a right. The police were wrong, but so are the rioters and looters. The police need to take stock and clean house if need be and those that broke the law should be punished, BUT those rioting and looting should also be held accountable.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 18:56:23 GMT
Because you seem intent, throughout this whole thread, to simply hone in on the circumstances of Mr. Gray's death, which everyone here has agreed was criminally wrong, and somewhat dismiss the fact that a faction of violent thugs are determined to destroy as much of the city as they can, using Mr. Gray's death as an excuse. People aren't condoning what happened to Mr. Gray; they're condemning the criminal behavior of the thugs. And, no, of course the investigation won't set Mr. Gray's loved ones world back on axis; by the same token, destroying the city won't bring him back either. You are right my comments here were to continue to remind those so outraged about rioting and looting that there is something else to be outraged about. And I disagree that everyone here acknowledges that what happened to Gray is criminal and worthy of even the same degree of outrage. That is abundantly clear in this thread and in many others where the deaths of black men are discussed. A pea can post about her son being arrested for rape and everyone rallies but when a person of color dies on the street before even being charged the consensus is "let's get the facts first" or as rampant in this thread deflection shown in statements like "Wait you mean to tell me you are okay with rioting", "He had a rap sheet a mile long", "Look at the other "thugs" over there stealing toilet paper in the "name" of Gray", "Darren Wilson's life is ruined" etc But we are outraged by that. It clearly looks like criminal action on the part of the police. Clearly. But we also know (all of us, including you) know that the video and the outcome is not all the information on the case. There is other information that will either prove wrong doing on the part of the police or show why they are not at fault. At this point in time we do not know all of the facts so we don't know with certainty which it will be. How does understanding that we do not know all of the facts mean that we are not outraged by police brutality? Answer: It doesn't. That would be like saying 1+1=6 so you must be a racist. Doesn't make a lick of sense does it? I didn't participate in that thread you mentioned, but I think the disparity you are seeing in this and the Pea's personal case is that what we get here from a pea is likely to be all of the info we will ever know, so Peas go by what info they have. In the meantime we are dealing with rioting at this very moment while we wait for the investigation to produce the missing info. That is why you see the focus on the rioting. It doesn't mean we don't care that someone was a victim off police brutality.
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thatgirlintexas
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Post by thatgirlintexas on Apr 28, 2015 18:57:41 GMT
I'm getting the impression that you are looking at this from a right/wrong moral issue. That rioting is breaking the law so it shouldn't be done. That just because the police force acts with brutality others should not. But let me ask you this question, if the very people who are tasked with upholding the law and protecting citizens can't do it without brutality why must I be the one to show restraint? Because 2 wrongs don't make a right. The police were wrong, but so are the rioters and looters. The police need to take stock and clean house if need be and those that broke the law should be punished, BUT those rioting and looting should also be held accountable. And this is where we will differ in the conversation. I don't believe this is a two wrongs don't make a right moral issue. If the police force was really interested in cleaning house why then over the past four years have people won court settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil rights violations by the police? If they were serious about cleaning house you would think the city would say this has to stop and try and do something about it.
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Post by jonda1974 on Apr 28, 2015 19:02:40 GMT
I'm about 15 mins away from where all this is going down. It's tragic and just senseless. People who are doing this don't care about Frwddy Gray, they are lawless thugs. They don't care about statistics that show that more white people have died in police custody than black people. They don't care about hurting anyone..they just want to act like animals. Lock em up, tear gas them, tase them, I don't care. Is it a flawless system..no. But there are laws to protect people and they need to be followed..on both ends. Why the curfew is not tonight, I don't know. Half a block is burning. Our mayor is a complete moron telling police to stand down and let them destroy. I'm praying for our city tonight but part of me never wants to set foot in it again..I'm just disgusted. Medved said that police kill more whites than blacks. In absolute terms, that is accurate. However, the statement ignores that there are more than five times more whites than blacks in America. When comparing death rates, blacks are about three times more likely than whites to die in a confrontation with police. Talk show host: Police kill more whites than blacksBut what is the percentage of crimes committed to the percentage of death rate? If we are going to analyze, then lets get the whole picture.
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Post by jonda1974 on Apr 28, 2015 19:11:19 GMT
And his family has repeatedly asked for the lawbreakers to stop trashing and burning their city. That fact has been put aside by the rioters, the arsonists and thieves rampaging on Freddie Gray's behalf. Do you understand that? Everyone has agreed, from what I've read here and in the media that Freddie Gray is a victim of police brutality. They are investigating, no one is sweeping this under the carpet. There was no reason to burn Baltimore in the name of justice. Everyone has agreed? I haven't heard from a lot of people here agreeing with the fact that the police murdered Freddie Gray while he was in custody. I've heard a lot of nasty talk about thugs and a lack of understanding about how and why we got to this terrible night.
Do YOU understand THAT?
1 + 1 doesn't equal 2 in this case. Freddy Gray died in police custody. This is being investigated, and UNTIL the results of the investigation come in, NO ONE can say that Mr Gray is not getting JUSTICE. Should he have died, absolutely not, and I don't know the entire story, but THAT is ONE issue. The SECOND ISSUE is looters, thugs and rioters burning down a city. THERE IS NEVER justification for this. Peaceful protests absolutely. What is happening in Baltimore is NOT peaceful. Therefore BOTH Mr. Grays death is horrible and wrong AND Being a THUG in Baltimore is wrong. We may not know if Mr Gray warranted an arrest, and that again is a completely separate issue altogether as well. Again, REGARDLESS of what happened to Mr Gray, it does not EQUATE to what is currently taking place as being RIGHT and ACCEPTABLE.
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Post by jonda1974 on Apr 28, 2015 19:16:52 GMT
Since I laugh every time I get called a "union thug" by some of the redneck nutters in my area any time I'm ever quoted in the paper about a faculty union issue, I, too, have never considered "thug" to have a racial connotation. If I were any more white, I would glow in the dark. Why is it that some on this thread believe that we cannot condemn looting and rioting by opportunistic criminals unless we are condoning incidents of police brutality? I have no problem saying that what happened in Baltimore needs to be thoroughly investigated and IF evidence of police brutality is found, the police should be charged. I also believe that those using "racial outrage" as an excuse to destroy and loot should also be charged and locked up. The vague excuses that people wouldn't be acting like this if they had any recourse . . . . Yeah, no. "I'm pissed off at police brutality, so I'm going to rob this store and then burn it down" makes NO sense. No amount of rationalization can legitimize such behavior. In the same vein why can't some people on this thread get that being outraged by police brutality isn't the same as condoning rioting. Also I rarely see any outrage about police brutality and the deaths of black men at the hands of police. Instead I see comments like "Let's wait until all the facts are laid out" or "He was a thug" etc. It saddens me. I can be absolutely outraged at police brutality regardless of race. Where my understanding and empathy begin to wane is not seeing the exact SAME level of outrage from the exact SAME people every time a violent crime is committed against a black person on a DAILY basis, statistically by members of their OWN race. The percentage of black deaths by cops doesn't come near to the percentage of black on black crime. Where is the rioting and looting on a daily basis to protest the senseless deaths of black men caused by black men or is it really code for "we only care when it is cop on black or white on black deaths"
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Post by kraft4fun on Apr 28, 2015 19:23:44 GMT
arthur mcduffie 1980 in Miami all over again. Sent from my NX008HD8G using proboards
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Apr 28, 2015 19:24:15 GMT
In the same vein why can't some people on this thread get that being outraged by police brutality isn't the same as condoning rioting. Also I rarely see any outrage about police brutality and the deaths of black men at the hands of police. Instead I see comments like "Let's wait until all the facts are laid out" or "He was a thug" etc. It saddens me. I can be absolutely outraged at police brutality regardless of race. Where my understanding and empathy begin to wane is not seeing the exact SAME level of outrage from the exact SAME people every time a violent crime is committed against a black person on a DAILY basis, statistically by members of their OWN race. The percentage of black deaths by cops doesn't come near to the percentage of black on black crime. Where is the rioting and looting on a daily basis to protest the senseless deaths of black men caused by black men or is it really code for "we only care when it is cop on black or white on black deaths" Black on black crime and police brutality are two separate issues. Liken it to saying hey "yall kill each other so why can't we" all while wearing a hood. That rhetoric is sooo nonsensical. Your empathy can't wane if it was nonexistent in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 19:27:17 GMT
An ex-boyfriend emailed me that quote this morning. Actually made me cry as the last time I saw him he called me a racially charged name and broke my sunglasses. Oddly enough we were both students in Baltimore at the time. Was he trying to use Dr. King's quote to justify his violence toward you? Or was he simply commenting on the Baltimore riots? She posted that as a status on FB with nothing else, and I'm sharing it the same way. Edited to add: Sorry- you weren't asking me! I didn't read the context.
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happymomma
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Post by happymomma on Apr 28, 2015 19:27:49 GMT
In the same vein why can't some people on this thread get that being outraged by police brutality isn't the same as condoning rioting. Also I rarely see any outrage about police brutality and the deaths of black men at the hands of police. Instead I see comments like "Let's wait until all the facts are laid out" or "He was a thug" etc. It saddens me. I can be absolutely outraged at police brutality regardless of race. Where my understanding and empathy begin to wane is not seeing the exact SAME level of outrage from the exact SAME people every time a violent crime is committed against a black person on a DAILY basis, statistically by members of their OWN race. The percentage of black deaths by cops doesn't come near to the percentage of black on black crime. Where is the rioting and looting on a daily basis to protest the senseless deaths of black men caused by black men or is it really code for "we only care when it is cop on black or white on black deaths" I must say, that is one thing I do not understand. There are a whole lot more instances of blacks killing other blacks than there are of cops killing blacks. Yet, I never read about the rioting and looting or even peaceful demonstrations against this. Do these things happen and media just doesn't cover it as much? Also..."Thug" is not a racial word in my world. We have very very few blacks or other non-white people in my town, yet we have plenty of thugs. They are white.
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Post by jenis40 on Apr 28, 2015 19:32:15 GMT
This is a sincere question and a little off-tangent. I apologize if I offend anyone because that is not my intent. Would there be as much black-on-black crime if the black community felt they were able to trust law enforcement a bit more? There is so much bad history there and it's not something I've experienced as a Caucasian in a pretty non-diverse place.
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Post by roundtwo on Apr 28, 2015 19:35:44 GMT
Since we are tossing around Martin Luther King Jr quotes, I thought I would share one too.
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Post by jonda1974 on Apr 28, 2015 19:36:16 GMT
I can be absolutely outraged at police brutality regardless of race. Where my understanding and empathy begin to wane is not seeing the exact SAME level of outrage from the exact SAME people every time a violent crime is committed against a black person on a DAILY basis, statistically by members of their OWN race. The percentage of black deaths by cops doesn't come near to the percentage of black on black crime. Where is the rioting and looting on a daily basis to protest the senseless deaths of black men caused by black men or is it really code for "we only care when it is cop on black or white on black deaths" Black on black crime and police brutality are two separate issues. Liken it to saying hey "yall kill each other so why can't we" all while wearing a hood. That rhetoric is sooo nonsensical. Your empathy can't wane if it was nonexistent in the first place. Please. No one is saying either is right. No where in my post is the concept of "ya'll kill each other so why can't we". I'm saying BOTH are EQUALLY wrong, yet only ONE gets YOU and others worked up to this level of concern. And if your last comment is a veiled attempt at calling me a racist, honey, think again. I'm currently seeing someone who is of mixed decent, and he is embarrassed by these thugs as well. I have a Latino friend who is embarrassed of the thugs he grew up with, so when he gets out of the Navy in a month, he's looking for a town where he can feel safe away from them. In fact, I would say only a small percentage of my friends and exes have been or are actually Caucasian. So take YOUR racism and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.
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