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Post by Really Red on Aug 6, 2015 1:09:46 GMT
I have a dear friend. He is great. we are at the opposite ends of the political spectrum and we love to talk politics. We are respectful and kind to each other. I always tell my son that it's not fun to talk politics with someone who agrees with you because you don't learn anything. I really believe that.
My friend has all the same worn out stories with the Confederate flag. I have given him the opposing reasons. What I'd like is a good analogy. He LOVES analogies. Anyone have one? Because I am sick of hearing it's about state's rights. This is what I said:
It's like a divorce. You say it's for irreconcilable differences, but reasons 6-12 are the fact that he cheated on you.
He needs something better. I know you can help!!!
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 6, 2015 1:12:11 GMT
I've read it twice and I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for. Can you explain differently
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Post by Really Red on Aug 6, 2015 1:19:28 GMT
Sorry.
My friend believes that there is nothing wrong with the Confederate flag. I do.
I believe that it represents slavery. He feels it represents states' rights.
I say that when you say it's states' rights it is disingenuous. It WAS about slavery.
My friend believes that analogies explain things well. I agree. I cannot think of a good analogy.
Does that help?
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Post by Zee on Aug 6, 2015 1:19:33 GMT
Honestly, I wouldn't even bother. When someone brings up that tired "it wasn't about slavery, it was about states' rights" BS I end it with "yeah, about the states' rights to own slaves" and leave it at that. He's got his mind made up and I seriously doubt that any analogy you come up with is gong to change his mind.
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Post by nlwilkins on Aug 6, 2015 1:22:50 GMT
To me, it does not matter what it meant in our history, or how cherished it is by some. What matters to me is that it is a symbol of pain and suffering and causes pain to a major portion of our population. If I had to cherish the confederate flag, I would do so in the privacy of my home where it would not cause pain to others. So, I don't waste my time refuting history or fact, but stick to the present/modern day situation.
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Post by Really Red on Aug 6, 2015 1:52:01 GMT
So I don't disagree with you, but this is a person with whom you can discuss things. He may not change his mind, but I don't think his mind is completely closed.
Analogies help people understand things. I am just hoping that someone has a good analogy
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Post by mollycoddle on Aug 6, 2015 1:59:48 GMT
It was about states's rights to preserve slavery. The south was built on indigo, then cotton. Even after the invention of the cotton gin, they needed free labor to be profitable.
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Post by peasapie on Aug 6, 2015 2:04:54 GMT
While many still debate the ultimate causes of the Civil War, Pulitzer Prize-winning author James McPherson writes that, "The Civil War started because of uncompromising differences between the free and slave states over the power of the national government to prohibit slavery in the territories that had not yet become states. When Abraham Lincoln won election in 1860 as the first Republican president on a platform pledging to keep slavery out of the territories, seven slave states in the deep South seceded and formed a new nation, the Confederate States of America. The incoming Lincoln administration and most of the Northern people refused to recognize the legitimacy of secession. They feared that it would discredit democracy and create a fatal precedent that would eventually fragment the no-longer United States into several small, squabbling countries." from: www.civilwar.org/education/history/faq/
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Post by hop2 on Aug 6, 2015 3:46:08 GMT
The confederate flag is about oppression, no matter how you look at it, from which side, it represents a time of oppression, power, conflict, seperation and loss. It isn't a positive symbol.
The civil war came to a head at that time because the wealthy and powerful from the north couldn't compete with slave labor, didn't appreciate the economic gains and advantages they 'felt' the south had. So they utilized the emancipation movement to force their requirements upon the south, to even the economic playing feild. It was objected to by the south as a form of oppression by the north/union. The south objected, seceding from the union so they could continue to oppress slaves.
It represents loss, the loss of unity, the loss of lives, families, livelihoods, trust, etc. Everyone lost due to the civil war, and some of those wounds still fester.
Power, it represents power, the power of the wealthy businessmen of the north to force a nation to their will. The power to retain slave labor. Simply because the resulting freeing of the slaves is a good thing, the right thing, the method of how we got there wasn't 'right' or good. The corruption involved is astounding. It isn't a proud moment for either side.
The rebirth of the popularity of the confederate flag during the civil rights movement was also all about power, oppression, loss and conflict. About oppressing people, holding them back, dividing and separating people from people.
It doesn't represent positive elements of the south or southern society in either of it's time periods. It doesn't represent culture, elegance, tradition, refinement, hospitality or any other proud, positive piece if southern heritage.
I've heard the 'represents southern heritage' line all my life and I've never really thought about it, never really looked at it. Not being from the south and encountering this symbol rarely I accepted the line at face value without any contemplation at all. I often object to the simplification and romanticizing of the civil war, the whitewashing of the methods and motives of the north, the civil war was an awful, horrific time period all the way around, no one was completely 'right' and everyone lost. Id really like to hear WHY it represents positive southern heritage from people. I'm kind of tired of hearing 'it just does ' that doesn't cut it anymore for me.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 25, 2024 15:23:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 7:47:51 GMT
i don't think anyone is as interested in the convo with him as you seem to be you don't need an analogy for something that seems pretty clear
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Post by Scrapbrat on Aug 6, 2015 10:52:48 GMT
Sorry. My friend believes that there is nothing wrong with the Confederate flag. I do. I believe that it represents slavery. He feels it represents states' rights. I say that when you say it's states' rights it is disingenuous. It WAS about slavery. My friend believes that analogies explain things well. I agree. I cannot think of a good analogy. Does that help? I can't think of an analogy, but there was an excellent in-depth article in Time a few years ago (cover article) on how some were trying to change history by insisting that the Civil War was about states' rights. It was a great read. Maybe there would be something helpful in that article.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Aug 6, 2015 11:00:59 GMT
I think you can compare it to the Nazi Flag. The symbol used on that flag was co-opted by the Nazi's its original meaning lost in the vileness of the Nazi's. The thought of displaying that flag in homage to the Germans who died during WWiI or out of German Pride is unthinkable. IT is the same with the Confederate Flag.
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Post by cindytred on Aug 6, 2015 14:32:34 GMT
The confederate flag is about oppression, no matter how you look at it, from which side, it represents a time of oppression, power, conflict, seperation and loss. It isn't a positive symbol. The civil war came to a head at that time because the wealthy and powerful from the north couldn't compete with slave labor, didn't appreciate the economic gains and advantages they 'felt' the south had. So they utilized the emancipation movement to force their requirements upon the south, to even the economic playing feild. It was objected to by the south as a form of oppression by the north/union. The south objected, seceding from the union so they could continue to oppress slaves. It represents loss, the loss of unity, the loss of lives, families, livelihoods, trust, etc. Everyone lost due to the civil war, and some of those wounds still fester. Power, it represents power, the power of the wealthy businessmen of the north to force a nation to their will. The power to retain slave labor. Simply because the resulting freeing of the slaves is a good thing, the right thing, the method of how we got there wasn't 'right' or good. The corruption involved is astounding. It isn't a proud moment for either side. The rebirth of the popularity of the confederate flag during the civil rights movement was also all about power, oppression, loss and conflict. About oppressing people, holding them back, dividing and separating people from people. It doesn't represent positive elements of the south or southern society in either of it's time periods. It doesn't represent culture, elegance, tradition, refinement, hospitality or any other proud, positive piece if southern heritage. I've heard the 'represents southern heritage' line all my life and I've never really thought about it, never really looked at it. Not being from the south and encountering this symbol rarely I accepted the line at face value without any contemplation at all. I often object to the simplification and romanticizing of the civil war, the whitewashing of the methods and motives of the north, the civil war was an awful, horrific time period all the way around, no one was completely 'right' and everyone lost. Id really like to hear WHY it represents positive southern heritage from people. I'm kind of tired of hearing 'it just does ' that doesn't cut it anymore for me. @hop 2: I'm one of those southerners who have always felt the Confederate Flag represented my heritage. I've never been able to explain why. I love what you wrote. And I completely agree with you about what the CF represents. Thank you. Cindy
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Post by vspindler on Aug 6, 2015 16:11:08 GMT
Saying now that the civil war was about states rights (when the separation documents stated slavery as a reason) is like trying to go back after a divorce and saying it was due to irreconcilable differences when one of the parties admits to cheating during the divorce.
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Montannie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,486
Location: Big Sky Country
Jun 25, 2014 20:32:35 GMT
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Post by Montannie on Aug 6, 2015 16:34:07 GMT
Yes, I read an article somewhere that quoted the states' secession "statements" or whatever they were called. That was powerful proof to me and the person I shared it with claiming "states rights" was the reason for the civil war.
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georgiapea
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,846
Jun 27, 2014 18:02:10 GMT
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Post by georgiapea on Aug 6, 2015 17:19:23 GMT
It's one of those "In the eye of the beholder" things. Someone seeing the flag is not going to think "Well, there goes a person who is championing the southern state's rights issue. Nope, they are going to think "There's a redneck who is flaunting the slavery forever" position the confederacy held.
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