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Post by jenn on Jul 23, 2014 16:31:04 GMT
I think the turning point for the OP was when in was discovered that the neighbors were three feet into her yard...and that the neighbors are being persnickety about it all. That was my point though. Discovering it's 3 feet instead of just 1 after nine years doesn't make a difference in my mind. 2 extra feet of land vs 9 years of a fence not mattering. I kind of understand the neighbors not wanting to move it at this point. But it does make a difference if you are thinking in square feet of area. Depending on the length of the area, it really could add up. Also, the value of the three feet is part of the value of the home...which is calculated in the property taxes.
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Country Ham
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Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Jul 23, 2014 17:16:35 GMT
If it makes that much of a measurable difference in property taxes it shouldn't of taken almost 10 years to notice it. There was absolutely no notice of this missing land over the years. No light bulb moment of "Wow look how small our yard is compared to our taxes" etc.
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Post by kristalina on Jul 23, 2014 18:19:54 GMT
3' does make a difference to me. I don't know how big your yard is otherwise, but in my yard, 3' would be worth taking action over.
I think if it had been 1', I might have done what you did - not really push the issue.
Did those neighbors build the fence, or was it there when they moved to the property?
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Post by AN on Jul 23, 2014 18:26:52 GMT
Ok so maybe I am the only one to dissent but - What? They've had a fence on this part of the property for 9 years and only until 2 months ago did you find out that this property was yours? And they have gardent and trees and pools, etc. lining it? So if you are NOT using this - and haven't for close to 10 years - I guess how about instead having it surveyed and SELL the property to your neighbors? Again if you're not using it and have no plans to, wouldn't it be easier to have them pay you for it? Or some sort of exchange type of thing? In return for that property something else? I guess I feel like some sort of compromise could be made without ripping up the fence, their garden and tree. They weren't aware until 2 months ago either so I feel like maybe something could be done to work out between the two of you. It can be a pretty big deal when you go to sell. It impacts: - The lot size on the listing. For example, we only searched for houses with lots over 0.25 acres. 3 feet the length of a lot could be enough to bump someone up or down in a listing category. - Setbacks. Say you go to build a shed or a patio. It has to be a certain distance from your lot line in most cities. A 3 foot encroachment might not be a lot when you've got an open yard, but 3 feet is a big deal (especially in smaller yards) when it comes to setback distance for a structure.
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Country Ham
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Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Jul 23, 2014 20:34:23 GMT
Yes I understand we had 9 years to get it straightened out, but again we only thought it was a foot or less,
This is why I can't wrap my head around it being such a big deal suddenly. They knew for well over 9 years this fence encroached on their property. Assuming it was about a foot or less. That's a huge assumption. I would assume the neighbor's didn't a proper survey of property lines either and fence got erected. It stood there year after year after year and no one cared. I get the taxes thing etc, but no one cared before. Also the OP considered them good neighbors at first and suddenly she's making them out to be horrible neighbors. I just simply don't blame them for not wanting to tear down a fence after all this time. They didn't turn into 'those' neighbors solely. You did as well. I type all this knowing full well my neighbor has a shed partway onto our property and I could be doing the same thing as the OP.
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sweetandsour
Full Member
 
Posts: 227
Jun 30, 2014 17:43:52 GMT
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Post by sweetandsour on Jul 23, 2014 20:45:09 GMT
I sit with the OP on this one.
Up to 1' on an existing fence - nah, I'd mention it but I wouldn't insist on them moving it.
But the neighbours went to replace that fence, find out they were 3' over and didn't fix it? AND put a pool right up against the fence? That is being a terrible neighbour and darn well they should move it onto their property. What did these neighbours tell the fencing company? "Oh, don't worry about it, they're cool with us being 3' over."
My coworker's neighbour made them move the front yard fence 8 inches over. When my coworker looked at the survey pins, they were indeed over. However, the neighbour was 3 feet over in the back. The neighbour actually fought them in court for a year to not move her portion! (and lost and had to pay court fees)
ETA: My coworker lived in their house 17 years with the original fence before the neighbour made the complaint. The 3 feet did not automatically become the neighbour's property.
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mallie
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Jul 3, 2014 18:13:13 GMT
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Post by mallie on Jul 23, 2014 20:51:38 GMT
3' does make a difference to me. I don't know how big your yard is otherwise, but in my yard, 3' would be worth taking action over. I think if it had been 1', I might have done what you did - not really push the issue. Did those neighbors build the fence, or was it there when they moved to the property? I would push if it were 1 foot and here is why: zoning rules. For example, a deck or patio has to be x number of feet from the propriety line. If I let a neighbor encroach by one foot onto my propriety, my deck/patio may now violate the zoning laws. I will have to take down/redo my hardscape. That is not a small matter when it comes to, for example, a deck where the in-ground cemented posts are at the correct spot for the door from the house now would be wrong for zoning. So you would have to move the cemented posts plus your deck would now not match the door. This would NOT be a small matter.
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Post by Katie on Jul 24, 2014 1:24:00 GMT
Yes I understand we had 9 years to get it straightened out, but again we only thought it was a foot or less,
This is why I can't wrap my head around it being such a big deal suddenly. They knew for well over 9 years this fence encroached on their property. Assuming it was about a foot or less. That's a huge assumption. I would assume the neighbor's didn't a proper survey of property lines either and fence got erected. It stood there year after year after year and no one cared. I get the taxes thing etc, but no one cared before. Also the OP considered them good neighbors at first and suddenly she's making them out to be horrible neighbors. I just simply don't blame them for not wanting to tear down a fence after all this time. They didn't turn into 'those' neighbors solely. You did as well. I type all this knowing full well my neighbor has a shed partway onto our property and I could be doing the same thing as the OP. They've been tolerable neighbors, not 'great' neighbors. Not sure if you saw my f/u post where I indicated I'm not sure it's worth my energy and money to hire a surveyor and an attorney. We'll see. We plan to build a deck soon and if their fence interferes with the zoning regulations, we just might have to push harder. What I hope to find out from the city is whether or not he got a permit when he built it, and if so why did the inspector not catch it? Thanks to all for your input, whether you think I'm in the wrong or not. I needed objective opinions and I got them. Will keep you posted.
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Post by librarylady on Jul 24, 2014 3:30:04 GMT
Talk to an attorney. Don't start a war you can't live with for the next 20 years.......... I don't mean to back down, but just don't do anything that will make you the bad guy in the future.
I don't think the city will get involved. It is a private matter, not the concern of the city.
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Post by epeanymous on Jul 24, 2014 4:32:39 GMT
Yeah, sorry, time to lawyer up. And whether or not you should have said something earlier, you build a fence three feet onto your neighbor's property, you take the risk that there is going to be a headache about it at some point. If the options are "neighbor war" or "hand over your property to your neighbor," I say, that isn't a reasonable place for your neighbors to put you. Do not blame yourself.
Of course, the sum total of property law that I took in law school was the required introductory course, but I recall that adverse possession requires someone not just to use the land, but to do it notoriously, without challenge. Perhaps there is a way for you to avoid adverse possession via a contract or letter or something while leaving the fence, if you don't care that much that it is where it is. But that is something you should talk to someone who actually took the advanced property courses about.
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luckyexwife
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Jun 25, 2014 21:21:08 GMT
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Post by luckyexwife on Jul 30, 2014 2:36:26 GMT
How is this going?
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Post by jenn on Aug 1, 2014 19:03:28 GMT
Any updates?
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Post by Katie on Aug 1, 2014 19:08:44 GMT
Sorry, no updates as of yet. After 3 calls to the city, they are ignoring me so you were all right about that -- they will be of no help to us. I have drafted a very cordial letter to the neighbors, asking them to take down the fence. I even offered our help in moving it if that is part of the reason for the delay -- who knows. I've had the letter on the kitchen counter for a week, waiting for DH to tell me if he agrees I should send it. Definitely not able to afford hiring a surveyor and attorney, so I figure this is a good place to start. I am mailing it tomorrow, so we shall see what happens!
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Post by melanell on Aug 1, 2014 19:14:07 GMT
Good luck with the letter. 
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Post by theboydbunch on Aug 1, 2014 19:31:20 GMT
Bad neighbors suck! I'm sorry! Sounds like you've gotten some good advice here.
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Post by AN on Aug 1, 2014 19:32:35 GMT
Good luck, I hope the letter works.
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Post by jenn on Aug 1, 2014 19:55:04 GMT
Good Luck!
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scrappert
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Location: Milwaukee, WI area
Jul 11, 2014 21:20:09 GMT
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Post by scrappert on Aug 1, 2014 20:33:48 GMT
Yes, I agree, good luck with the letter. I hope they will move the fence.
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tiffanytwisted
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you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave
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Jun 26, 2014 15:57:39 GMT
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Post by tiffanytwisted on Aug 2, 2014 0:15:38 GMT
Good luck - and thanx for keeping us posted!
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Post by PNWMom on Aug 2, 2014 1:48:25 GMT
We learned a few years ago that our house is actually built in the wrong spot--it extends a few feet over our property line and is actually on our neighbors' lot a bit. And *their* house is actually over the line onto the empty lot next door. Yeesh. Our lots are rectangular, and 5000 square feet, which is the minimum size lot you can legally build a house on (at least in Seattle). Neighbors have a fence running from the front of the lot down one side to meet up with their house, so the fence is also over the line. The fence has been up over 10 years, and the house has been there for 15 years now, so that part is not an issue. But the back of the house buts up with a greenbelt of trees and is unmaintained, so there may be issues down the line with the back half of their lot.
The developer who just bought the empty lot has been pressuring them a bit and threatening them, so they have a lawyer who is helping them. Worst case scenario: They will have to give up a chunk of the back of their land (basically the empty lot would go from a rectangular shape to an L shape with a chunk of the neighbor's property added into it). If this happens, the neighbors will be forced to take a chunk of *our* lot to make up the 5000sq feet, so they could someday sell their house and have a legally big enough lot. As it is right now, our house's lot is wider than is should be. We have a sort of side yard on one side that is bigger than it should be (house not centered on the lot like it should be), so we are sort of the winners in this.
Because of the potentially hairy legal situation, we (and our neighbors) are in a bit of a watch and wait mode right now. Hoping that the developer realizes that he can't bully our neighbors into giving him what he wants (he wants a chunk of their front yard, which has the fence and is beautifully landscaped with a water feature and exotic plants right up to the fence line), and lets the lot sit.
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Post by Katie on Oct 5, 2014 17:38:01 GMT
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tiffanytwisted
Pearl Clutcher
you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave
Posts: 4,538
Jun 26, 2014 15:57:39 GMT
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Post by tiffanytwisted on Oct 5, 2014 17:52:49 GMT
We have new neighbors moving in on either side of us (one family outgrew their home and the other is divorcing, so while the running joke around here is that we drove them out, we actually are on quite good terms w/them both) and I am always worried that something like this will happen to us! Good luck - I hope you can get it all worked out w/out any more animosity than you're experiencing already! 
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Post by darkangel090260 on Oct 5, 2014 18:38:16 GMT
it's well on to your property, Just go take it down, Anything with in that 3 feet is yours. Quite fighting and just move it.
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Post by gritzi on Oct 5, 2014 19:05:45 GMT
Do you have legal rights to remove the fence since it's on your property? I would seriously consider the ramifications, because it will likely cause a neighbor war. However, you've warned and asked them to change the fence's location. If there's a 10yr ownership law they are just BSing you and procrastinating until they can claim the land.
I think you need an attorney's advice asap. IMO, legal steps will be the only resolution to this problem. Your relationship is basically over with this neighbor. I wouldn't appreciate them taking 3 feet of my property & thinking it was okay. I wouldn't have waited 9 years though before addressing the problem.
Good Luck! I hope everything works out.
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PrettyInPeank
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Posts: 4,691
Jun 25, 2014 21:31:58 GMT
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Post by PrettyInPeank on Oct 5, 2014 19:06:16 GMT
I would call the surveyors back, and simply leave out the part about the neighbor dispute. That's more information than they need to know. Simply state you are putting in a fence, and you want to know where the property lines are.
Call surveyors in the next town over if you have to. Once those lines are marked, give your neighbor a written notice via certified mail. Give it 1 week. If they don't pick it up (they will eventually) print the note and hand it to them with a witness, like a friend. (Don't use another neighbor--too much drama) Give a no-later-than date. If they STILL don't comply, call the local P.D. talk to them. If they STILL don't comply, request a police escort so you can remove the fence yourself.
I also think it was sneaky of him to say "it's been 10 years." He knows what 10 years means, and I can't help but think he's trying to get one over on you.
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Nicole in TX
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Jun 26, 2014 2:00:21 GMT
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Post by Nicole in TX on Oct 5, 2014 19:09:52 GMT
At this point I would take it down myself after giving them a week's notice that is what you were going to do.
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mallie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,253
Jul 3, 2014 18:13:13 GMT
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Post by mallie on Oct 5, 2014 19:55:10 GMT
Th, I doubt t the surveyors aren't calling you back because they don't want to get involved in a dispute given that a good part of their business is based on just that. They are probably just like every other service person, who don't call potential customers back.
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Post by Katie on Oct 5, 2014 21:54:52 GMT
it's well on to your property, Just go take it down, Anything with in that 3 feet is yours. Quite fighting and just move it. The police department strongly advised against this, although some days it's been difficult to keep DH from doing it. I would like to settle it diplomatically, and not start a full-on war.
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PrettyInPeank
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Jun 25, 2014 21:31:58 GMT
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Post by PrettyInPeank on Oct 5, 2014 22:32:57 GMT
it's well on to your property, Just go take it down, Anything with in that 3 feet is yours. Quite fighting and just move it. The police department strongly advised against this, although some days it's been difficult to keep DH from doing it. I would like to settle it diplomatically, and not start a full-on war. What did they suggest then? Edit: if letters fail?
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Post by Jennifer C on Oct 5, 2014 23:19:04 GMT
Take them to small claims court. Ask for the removal of the fence on your property or the maximum of what you are allowed to sue for in your county.
No attorney's needed and if you have a judgement for the removal, the neighbors can only watch while you have it removed.
Jennifer
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