Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 0:26:11 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 17:26:19 GMT
link
This is one of those threads that could be compared to someone running straight into a wall. On my other thread about Bernie Sanders once again the topic of how untrustworthy Hillary is and how she tells all these lies. I don't see it and have asked more than once for solid examples of this untrustworthiness and lies and I pretty much get silence. Or as they say you can hear the crickets. So after reading yet again about how untrustworthy etc Hillary is I went to see what I could find yet again. What I continue to find is folks feel she can't be trusted but I can't find any solid examples of why. But what I did find this time is this article "This May Shock you: Hillary Clinton is Fundamentally Honest" by Jill Abramson. She is a reporter who has been following Hillary since Bill's Arkansas days. The first sentence is "I've investigated Hillary and knows she likes a "Zone of Privacy" around her. This lack of transparency, rather than any actual corruption, is her greatest flaw." It goes on: " I would be "dead rich", to adapt an infamous Clinton phase, if I could bill for all the hours I've spent covering just about every scandal that has enveloped the Clintons. As an editor I've launched investigations into her business dealings, her fundraising, her foundation, and her marriage. As a reporter my stories stretch back to Whitewater. I'm not a favorite in Hillaryland. This makes what I want to say next surprising. Hillary Clinton is fundamentally honest and trustworthy." Also from the article is a point I think says a lot of how Hillary is viewed. An ex student of this reporter by the name of Colin Diersing who is now a leader of Harvard's Institute of Politics thinks a gender-related double standard gets applied to Hillary. " We expect purity from women candidates" he said " When she behaves like other politicians or changes her positions "it's seen as dishonest" He adds. An example of this is in an interview Hillary did with CBS Anchor Scott Pelley she was asked "Have you Always told the Truth?" She answered "I've always tried to, always always". Pelley's said she was leaving "wiggle room". The author noted "What politician wouldn't?" Fair point. You name one just one politician who has been completely honest with the American People and why are these politicians not being held to the same standard as Hillary is being held to? Another point in the article was "Still Clinton has mainly been constant on issues and changing positions over time is not dishonest". Makes sense unless you are Hillary. An example happened on another thread on this board. A pea was making the point it wasn't a bad thing if a politician changed their positions over time because they are evolving or something like that. But here was the kicker. The pea went on to say that when Hillary did it it was to get votes. So why is it ok for others to change their positions but if Hillary does it its to get votes? The article ends with "It's fair to expect more transparency. But it's a double standard to insist on her purity." I'm going to agree with this reporter's assessment about Hillary for the simple reason that she has been reporting on and investigating Hillary long enough that if there was "something there" it would have been found. And it would be any reporter's dream to get the "goods" on the Clintons. I will add that just because one seeks public office doesn't mean that one should also give up their "Zone of Privacy". Just because someone has a "zone of privacy" doesn't automatically mean they are " hiding" misdeeds. It just means Hillary, like all of us do, is keeping some things private. Without actual facts to back up these accusations of lying and actions that result in her appearing untrustworthy they are nothing but pure speculation. Which is too bad because the reality is of the candidates running for President she is the most able qualified person for the job. So to the folks who go on about Hillary's misdeeds with nothing specific to back it up I'll just say I think they are misguided in their assessment of Hillary and leave it at that.
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on Apr 13, 2016 17:40:58 GMT
Thank you. I think so much of this is SO TRUE. I just don't get the Hillary hate.
|
|
|
Post by dulcemama on Apr 13, 2016 17:56:44 GMT
I don't hate Hillary and don't find her untrustworthy. I will vote for her if she gets the nomination. With that said, there is something about her that doesn't sit quite right with me and I'm not sure how to articulate that. 8 years ago, I would have been happy to vote for her. I don't feel like she is the same candidate this time around as she was then.
|
|
MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
|
Post by MizIndependent on Apr 13, 2016 17:57:07 GMT
Gonna read this over as I have time. In spite of my obviously pro-Sanders posts, I really want to try and understand Hillary.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 0:26:11 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 18:31:36 GMT
Honestly the one that sticks with me the most is HRC claiming that she and Bill "were dead broke" when they left the White House. Here's just one article I found that fact checked that one : www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/jun/10/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-she-and-bill-were-dead-broke/
I think she was trying to seem like the average American, but honestly they aren't. They are a former President and First Lady.
Whether or not the email server issue is/was illegal activity, she has changed her tune more than once on that one too.
I don't have time to find backup, but those are the biggest ones that I can think of (well that and supporting victims of sexual harassment after she went after Bill's ladies back in the day)
Is she any worse than any other politician? Who knows? I don't really trust many of them especially at that level.
|
|
|
Post by SnowWhite on Apr 13, 2016 18:31:55 GMT
Aren't all politicians liars and untrustworthy? And I'm fairly liberal and just as willing to vote for Hillary as I am Bernie. But I think pretty much all politicians suck.
|
|
|
Post by pierogi on Apr 13, 2016 19:20:11 GMT
I prefer Bernie because his politics line up more closely with mine, but I'll vote for Hillary in a split second should she get the nomination. She's very capable, a tough cookie, and most important: not crazy.
|
|
PLurker
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,790
Location: Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Jun 28, 2014 3:48:49 GMT
|
Post by PLurker on Apr 13, 2016 19:30:15 GMT
I don't get it either. "She is such a liar." I've heard that over and over but no one really says about what. It's like someone, somewhere said that and people just repeated and ran with it. Then in the next breath practically, one mentioned Nixon and said "oh, yeah, they all do that, But he just got caught." I don't get the double standard.
|
|
TheOtherMeg
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,541
Jun 25, 2014 20:58:14 GMT
|
Post by TheOtherMeg on Apr 13, 2016 20:12:24 GMT
I do think this has merit. And not only is the female candidate expected to be "pure" (honest), she's expected to fight cleaner, to be above political mudslinging.
|
|
|
Post by gmcwife1 on Apr 13, 2016 20:16:14 GMT
I don't need examples or proof of how I feel about a candidate. Perception and intuition goes a long way for me. If I don't feel a person is trustworthy I don't owe them my vote (or friendship, or trust, etc.). We are constantly told to trust our intuition and I do
|
|
|
Post by Dictionary on Apr 13, 2016 20:25:22 GMT
I don't know about you but in my job if I used my gmail account to send classified emails I would be fired. Also go back and look at her S&L Whitewater Loan scandal. Her "I've done nothing wrong" sounds like a broken record at least to me.
|
|
scrapaddie
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,090
Jul 8, 2014 20:17:31 GMT
|
Post by scrapaddie on Apr 13, 2016 20:34:11 GMT
Honestly the one that sticks with me the most is HRC claiming that she and Bill "were dead broke" when they left the White House. Here's just one article I found that fact checked that one : www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/jun/10/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-she-and-bill-were-dead-broke/
I think she was trying to seem like the average American, but honestly they aren't. They are a former President and First Lady.
Whether or not the email server issue is/was illegal activity, she has changed her tune more than once on that one too.
I don't have time to find backup, but those are the biggest ones that I can think of (well that and supporting victims of sexual harassment after she went after Bill's ladies back in the day)
Is she any worse than any other politician? Who knows? I don't really trust many of them especially at that level.
Hillary saying they were dead broke is about as honest as bill saying that he never had sex with that woman. Banks don't lend nearly $2 million to somebody was dead broke.
|
|
|
Post by jonda1974 on Apr 13, 2016 20:52:39 GMT
While her husband may have coined it "what the definition of 'is' is" seems to be standard protocol for them both. She under FBI investigation, and they recently gave someone very high up immunity to testify. They don't do this for just any reason. I don't expect any politician to be pure, but I do expect them to uphold the law, and be the leader in setting the moral fiber of the country. I may despise most of Obama's policies, but as a man, as a father, as a husband and as a President, I do believe that he has been very respectable, and upheld the law and lived up to a moral code he had set for himself. I admire that, even as much as I don't want any of his policies to be enacted.
With Hillary, even though I voted for her husband, I didn't the 2nd term in large part because, we elected 1 person to be president. There was no such thing as a 2 for 1. She overstepped her bounds as First Lady, she was not a lawmaker at the time. She only moved to NY because she felt she could get elected there, and there was an open seat. Then when they "accidentally" took furnishings that were gifted to the White House on their exit...who does that.
Do I believe most of the conspiracies...no, but where there is smoke, there is fire, and we already know that they have the ability to tango on the line of truth, so they are just technically believable. That to me is dishonest. As Secretary of State she was responsible for leading the charge in dropping how many tons of weapons to Syrian Rebels, which was the dumbest move ever, because now most of those are used by ISIS.
I believe she is only concerned with one thing, and that is herself. She comes across as a visible narcissist. Many will say that is typical of politicians, but again, I don't like Obama's politics, but at the core I do believe he does what he feels is best for the people, and not just for him. Hillary will only do what is best for her. She always has. She was against gay marriage before she was for it. She supported her husband's 2 disastrous anti-gay bills. The most anti-gay bills any president has signed. Her attacks on her husband's female victims was horrendous. So much for every victim has a right to be heard.
So yes, it may not be something concrete, but there is obviously something very innate that people sense about her that puts their Spider sense on edge. I say trust that.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 0:26:11 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 21:05:11 GMT
I don't need examples or proof of how I feel about a candidate. Perception and intuition goes a long way for me. If I don't feel a person is trustworthy I don't owe them my vote (or friendship, or trust, etc.). We are constantly told to trust our intuition and I do The only problem with this logic is that if you were applying for a job position (and that is what Hillary is doing), I am going to assume you would be pissed if someone didn't hire you just because they didn't get a good vibe about you. You would most likely want them to look at your skillset and achievements and not just their intuition.
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on Apr 13, 2016 21:06:27 GMT
I don't need examples or proof of how I feel about a candidate. Perception and intuition goes a long way for me. If I don't feel a person is trustworthy I don't owe them my vote (or friendship, or trust, etc.). We are constantly told to trust our intuition and I do And you are totally within your rights to do that. Also what others have said about it. You absolutely may like whom you wish and trust whom you wish. I wouldn't dream of telling anyone whom to vote for, especially in the primary. My main argument is with liberals who don't seem to recognize the possible political consequences of their choice not to vote for Hillary in the fall if she's the nominee. Donald Trump would blow up the entire freakin' world as they know it, and Ted Cruz wouldn't be far behind. So I would encourage Bernie-only supporters to think through the full ramifications of a Republican presidency, especially regarding Supreme Court appointments. Cuz look what happened when Ralph Nader convinced himself and just enough liberals that the Democrats are really no different from the Republicans.
|
|
huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,231
Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
|
Post by huskergal on Apr 13, 2016 21:10:43 GMT
I will absolutely vote for Hillary if she gets the nomination. I voted for John Kerry and that was difficult. I did not vote for Al Gore. I voted 3rd party, but I knew Bush would win Nebraska so it didn't matter.
There is no way I want Cruz or Trump leading our country.
|
|
|
Post by SockMonkey on Apr 13, 2016 21:10:50 GMT
I don't need examples or proof of how I feel about a candidate. Perception and intuition goes a long way for me. If I don't feel a person is trustworthy I don't owe them my vote (or friendship, or trust, etc.). We are constantly told to trust our intuition and I do I'd rather rely on facts as much as possible when it comes to stuff like this, but you do you.
|
|
|
Post by papercrafteradvocate on Apr 13, 2016 21:33:52 GMT
I too read this article a week or so ago, and find that many are so misinformed on her!
|
|
|
Post by peano on Apr 13, 2016 21:51:01 GMT
OP, I've been as confused as you by the Hilary hate and linked this exact same article in another thread. I agree that people are holding her to a higher standard because she's a woman. I think consciously or unconsciously people are nervous about having a female president.
|
|
|
Post by refugeepea on Apr 13, 2016 21:53:40 GMT
I think if people were to point out fact after fact of what is wrong and right with Hillary/Trump/Cruz it really doesn't matter; especially on this board. There can be many links posted. Then there are arguments of it's right wing, it's left wing, it's FOX, it's MSNBC, it's a lie, it's biased... Video of words coming straight out of their mouths can be debated. It was edited, that isn't what he/she meant.
Seriously, why try anymore? It's such a waste of time to find the links and post them over and over. It is never acceptable to those that have made up their mind.
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Apr 13, 2016 22:01:06 GMT
Personally, I find all the obfuscation about the e-mail server thing troubling. There is no way a seasoned politician like her didn't know that she shouldn't keep classified emails on a personal server, or that she would then delete all the emails rather than have them come to light.
She and her husband are, to my way of thinking, slick professional politicians who will do and say anything to get and stay in power. Bill had a lot of trouble with the truth during his presidency, and she was right there defending him to the public, lying to us right along with him. It's obvious that her choice to move to New York and run for the Senate from there, rather than from their more obscure home state, was a power play intended to lead exactly where she is right now. I don't think she has any interest in serving this country or leading its people. I think Hilary is all about Hilary. That's why I don't trust her.
But in the interest of full disclosure - I have the "luxury" of living in a solidly red state where my vote makes no difference. I can vote my conscience or not vote at all, and Texas will still go to the Republicans. If I lived in a swing state, I might be more willing to change my mind, particularly given the valid Supreme Court issue. But I still don't understand why so many people find her an inspiring candidate. I just don't see it at all.
|
|
|
Post by gmcwife1 on Apr 13, 2016 22:03:19 GMT
I don't need examples or proof of how I feel about a candidate. Perception and intuition goes a long way for me. If I don't feel a person is trustworthy I don't owe them my vote (or friendship, or trust, etc.). We are constantly told to trust our intuition and I do And you are totally within your rights to do that. Also what others have said about it. You absolutely may like whom you wish and trust whom you wish. I wouldn't dream of telling anyone whom to vote for, especially in the primary. My main argument is with liberals who don't seem to recognize the possible political consequences of their choice not to vote for Hillary in the fall if she's the nominee. Donald Trump would blow up the entire freakin' world as they know it, and Ted Cruz wouldn't be far behind. So I would encourage Bernie-only supporters to think through the full ramifications of a Republican presidency, especially regarding Supreme Court appointments.Cuz look what happened when Ralph Nader convinced himself and just enough liberals that the Democrats are really no different from the Republicans. Whew, luckily I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative and I won't vote for any of the four of them! And no, I don't mean that snarky at all!! My state always goes democrat so my vote really doesn't matter, even though people say every vote matters. But my state is very liberal. I will vote for the third party candidate because I know my vote doesn't count, so it's not any more wasted on third party than it would be anything other than democrat and if anything there will be enough third party votes to spark some talk somewhere. Though that is probably just a pipe dream <sigh>
|
|
|
Post by ntsf on Apr 13, 2016 22:03:52 GMT
many people probably still don't know what an email server is.... the lack of tech knowledge is quite wide...
|
|
|
Post by gmcwife1 on Apr 13, 2016 22:06:33 GMT
Personally, I find all the obfuscation about the e-mail server thing troubling. There is no way a seasoned politician like her didn't know that she shouldn't keep classified emails on a personal server, or that she would then delete all the emails rather than have them come to light. She and her husband are, to my way of thinking, slick professional politicians who will do and say anything to get and stay in power. Bill had a lot of trouble with the truth during his presidency, and she was right there defending him to the public, lying to us right along with him. It's obvious that her choice to move to New York and run for the Senate from there, rather than from their more obscure home state, was a power play intended to lead exactly where she is right now. I don't think she has any interest in serving this country or leading its people. I think Hilary is all about Hilary. That's why I don't trust her. But in the interest of full disclosure - I have the "luxury" of living in a solidly red state where my vote makes no difference. I can vote my conscience or not vote at all, and Texas will still go to the Republicans. If I lived in a swing state, I might be more willing to change my mind, particularly given the valid Supreme Court issue. But I still don't understand why so many people find her an inspiring candidate. I just don't see it at all.Same for my state only for the Democrats. So the people on the other side can say whatever they want about my decisions and it really doesn't matter how I decide to vote and I know that
|
|
|
Post by mollycoddle on Apr 13, 2016 22:23:26 GMT
I don't need examples or proof of how I feel about a candidate. Perception and intuition goes a long way for me. If I don't feel a person is trustworthy I don't owe them my vote (or friendship, or trust, etc.). We are constantly told to trust our intuition and I do And you are totally within your rights to do that. Also what others have said about it. You absolutely may like whom you wish and trust whom you wish. I wouldn't dream of telling anyone whom to vote for, especially in the primary. My main argument is with liberals who don't seem to recognize the possible political consequences of their choice not to vote for Hillary in the fall if she's the nominee. Donald Trump would blow up the entire freakin' world as they know it, and Ted Cruz wouldn't be far behind. So I would encourage Bernie-only supporters to think through the full ramifications of a Republican presidency, especially regarding Supreme Court appointments. Cuz look what happened when Ralph Nader convinced himself and just enough liberals that the Democrats are really no different from the Republicans. SC appointments are what frighten me. I believe that there is a very good chance that there will be several SC vacancies in the next 4-or 8-years, and I cannot imagine the sorts of appointments that a President Cruz or Trump would make. So I am voting blue no matter who!
|
|
|
Post by mollycoddle on Apr 13, 2016 22:27:08 GMT
Personally, I find all the obfuscation about the e-mail server thing troubling. There is no way a seasoned politician like her didn't know that she shouldn't keep classified emails on a personal server, or that she would then delete all the emails rather than have them come to light. She and her husband are, to my way of thinking, slick professional politicians who will do and say anything to get and stay in power. Bill had a lot of trouble with the truth during his presidency, and she was right there defending him to the public, lying to us right along with him. It's obvious that her choice to move to New York and run for the Senate from there, rather than from their more obscure home state, was a power play intended to lead exactly where she is right now. I don't think she has any interest in serving this country or leading its people. I think Hilary is all about Hilary. That's why I don't trust her. But in the interest of full disclosure - I have the "luxury" of living in a solidly red state where my vote makes no difference. I can vote my conscience or not vote at all, and Texas will still go to the Republicans. If I lived in a swing state, I might be more willing to change my mind, particularly given the valid Supreme Court issue. But I still don't understand why so many people find her an inspiring candidate. I just don't see it at all.Same for my state only for the Democrats. So the people on the other side can say whatever they want about my decisions and it really doesn't matter how I decide to vote and I know that I do understand, because I really, really don't like Bernie, and I cannot understand his appeal. Having said that, I will vote for him if he is the nominee. He would be much better than any of the Republican crop, IMO.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 0:26:11 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 22:48:49 GMT
yes
|
|
|
Post by femalebusiness on Apr 13, 2016 22:59:00 GMT
Aren't all politicians liars and untrustworthy? And I'm fairly liberal and just as willing to vote for Hillary as I am Bernie. But I think pretty much all politicians suck. Yep, you can't be a politician unless you are morally defective.
|
|
|
Post by nurseypants on Apr 13, 2016 23:00:20 GMT
I don't need examples or proof of how I feel about a candidate. Perception and intuition goes a long way for me. If I don't feel a person is trustworthy I don't owe them my vote (or friendship, or trust, etc.). We are constantly told to trust our intuition and I do Feeling is so much easier than reading and thinking. Good job!!
|
|
|
Post by pepperwood on Apr 13, 2016 23:20:29 GMT
I recommend reading two books, Clinton Cash and The Clinton's War on Women, that present a very scary picture of Bill and Hillary. Even if all of the accusations are not true, there's a lot of compelling evidence. Sadly, I don't think the Clintons are the only dishonest politicians out there, but they seem to have taken it to a new level.
|
|