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Post by myshelly on Apr 25, 2016 16:32:02 GMT
I got to the sentence where you said your son is in grade 11 and said nope out loud. At that age he needs to make the decision/talk to the teacher himself. Personally, I don't see studying past tests as cheating. It sounds like your son could have done the same - study the past tests (without memorizing answers if you want to draw a line there). How can you not see studying pass tests as cheating?! All you have to do is memorize answers and you don't have to understand a darn thing! I also do not understand how the teacher cannot see how this would be a problem! I don't understand how anyone can see it as cheating. When kids are studying for standardized tests they take practice tests, which are previous tests. When you study for the SATs you take practice tests, which are previous released tests. When I studied for the Bar Exam, I studied by working through previous released tests. It's an extremely common study method.
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Post by gmcwife1 on Apr 25, 2016 16:38:01 GMT
Thank you all! I will let him deal with it if he wants. If he's unsure how to start the conversation with his teacher he can always ask if his teacher considers studying past tests cheating. It would be a good conversation given the different views of doing that on this thread
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Post by crazy4scraps on Apr 25, 2016 16:40:08 GMT
How can you not see studying pass tests as cheating?! All you have to do is memorize answers and you don't have to understand a darn thing! I also do not understand how the teacher cannot see how this would be a problem! I don't understand how anyone can see it as cheating. When kids are studying for standardized tests they take practice tests, which are previous tests. When you study for the SATs you take practice tests, which are previous released tests. When I studied for the Bar Exam, I studied by working through previous released tests. It's an extremely common study method. But the practice tests are a VERSION to give you a rough idea of what you are expected to know, not the exact test with the exact questions that will be in front of you on test day. Big difference, at least to me. Why bother learning anything at all if you can just memorize the correct answers and color in the right bubbles to get an A?
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Post by myshelly on Apr 25, 2016 16:42:04 GMT
I don't understand how anyone can see it as cheating. When kids are studying for standardized tests they take practice tests, which are previous tests. When you study for the SATs you take practice tests, which are previous released tests. When I studied for the Bar Exam, I studied by working through previous released tests. It's an extremely common study method. But the practice tests are a VERSION to give you a rough idea of what you are expected to know, not the exact test with the exact questions that will be in front of you on test day. Big difference, at least to me. Why bother learning anything at all if you can just memorize the correct answers and color in the right bubbles to get an A? That's the fault of the teacher not the kids.
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seaexplore
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Apr 25, 2015 23:57:30 GMT
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Post by seaexplore on Apr 25, 2016 16:51:37 GMT
I spend hours making tests each chapter. I use some test bank questions but I make a lot from scratch. That involves finding or making diagrams that match my material. I will reuse the tests semester after semester. To say I am lazy in doing so is both ignorant and insulting. Because I reuse them, I don't hand them or the answer sheets back. Students are encouraged to come to tutoring to review their mistakes. Do you at least make up a few different versions of the test to use year to year? Even if you don't let them keep their tests, it's pretty easy for one student to tell another what was on the diagram or the more challenging parts of the test, isn't it? And wouldn't that be an unfair advantage for a kid who, say, had an older sibling in your class? I'm a middle school teacher. I use the same (science)tests every year as well. I do not pass them back to keep but they are more than welcome to look over their test with the key and ask me any questions. Lots of time goes into creating tests. I randomize the questions across 4 forms that are passed out on test day. I also, a few days before the test, tell the kids everything to study. I hold up the test and show any diagrams. I tell them the exact essay questions. I encourage them to write everything down and talk slow enough for them to write it. I suggest that they create answers to the essays ahead of time and study with classmates. I'm sure some students cheat, I just don't normally catch them. When I look at score distributions, it's pretty well spread out across the scale.
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Country Ham
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Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Apr 25, 2016 16:54:33 GMT
Grade 11? Nope.
And I'm with myshelly on the cheating thing. Using prior years' tests to study is pretty standard.
Whenever I've had teachers who do use the same test year-to-year, they hand them back to the students in class so that they can look them over, then collect them again at the end of class so that they can't be handed around to next year's class. My son has a science teacher who keeps everything. Just tells them their grades. He hates that because he likes to use the weekly quizzes and smaller tests when studying for finals. Plus he wants to work through his mistakes etc.
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Dalai Mama
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Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Apr 25, 2016 16:55:51 GMT
Grade 11? Nope.
And I'm with myshelly on the cheating thing. Using prior years' tests to study is pretty standard.
Whenever I've had teachers who do use the same test year-to-year, they hand them back to the students in class so that they can look them over, then collect them again at the end of class so that they can't be handed around to next year's class. My son has a science teacher who keeps everything. Just tells them their grades. He hates that because he likes to use the weekly quizzes and smaller tests when studying for finals. Plus he wants to work through his mistakes etc. I also hated it. But it's what you have to do if you are going to recycle tests year after year.
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Post by ro on Apr 25, 2016 17:26:54 GMT
Again thanks for the different perspectives!
To clarify, last term kids who took biology had tests. This term, the new kids have the exact same test. I asked him if it was the exact same one and he said according to his classmates, yes.
When I asked his friend, he said, yes that a bunch of kids pass on their tests because they are exactly the same tests given.
Without being a bragging mom (lol) this is an advanced biology class and my son is brought home a mark lower on his midterm than one of the kids who laughed at his (other kid) saying that he got a 90-something without opening a text book.
I do find it unfair and I really do subscribe to the life is unfair rule in my house. It just really bothered me. To me it is clearly cheating.
I will take the advice of telling him to talk to his teacher if it continues to bug him.
As an aside, I did tell him that he might have been getting lower marks because he challenges the teacher when she gets answers wrong and she might not 'like' him. Thankfully the brightest girl in the class. Is often on his side too.
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
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Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Apr 25, 2016 18:27:43 GMT
I spend hours making tests each chapter. I use some test bank questions but I make a lot from scratch. That involves finding or making diagrams that match my material. I will reuse the tests semester after semester. To say I am lazy in doing so is both ignorant and insulting. Because I reuse them, I don't hand them or the answer sheets back. Students are encouraged to come to tutoring to review their mistakes. Do you at least make up a few different versions of the test to use year to year? Even if you don't let them keep their tests, it's pretty easy for one student to tell another what was on the diagram or the more challenging parts of the test, isn't it? And wouldn't that be an unfair advantage for a kid who, say, had an older sibling in your class? My different versions just have the same questions scrambled. If I used different wuestions from class to class all hell would break loose. Parents would be in the office weekly complaining that their children got the "harder" version. I can't simply substitute a different number to make it a new test. I have to do a lot of work.
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likescarrots
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Aug 16, 2014 17:52:53 GMT
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Post by likescarrots on Apr 25, 2016 18:31:29 GMT
I would be utterly shocked if the teacher did not know this was going on. They probably have a reason (right or wrong) for continuing to use the same test. I would leave it be. The other kids cheating doesn't have an effect on your kid's knowledge of the subject matter. If he is disappointed in his grade, he needs to prepare better for next time.
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scorpeao
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Jun 25, 2014 21:04:54 GMT
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Post by scorpeao on Apr 25, 2016 18:42:30 GMT
Grade 11? Nope.
And I'm with myshelly on the cheating thing. Using prior years' tests to study is pretty standard.
Whenever I've had teachers who do use the same test year-to-year, they hand them back to the students in class so that they can look them over, then collect them again at the end of class so that they can't be handed around to next year's class. Absolutely, and it goes all the way to college. I got through college by studying the material covered on past exams. Did none of you go to college? I didn't have a single peer who didn't do the same thing. As for this situation, if the teacher is giving the exact same test each year then SHE should be reprimanded, not the students! Oh, and college classes that have the same exam year after year usually aren't available because the professor doesn't return them. If you want to see your exam you had to make an appointment with the professor.
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Deleted
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Sept 29, 2024 18:23:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 19:03:34 GMT
Part of my job is writing test banks for use in science curricula. It's really hard to write good test questions. A lot harder than you'd think. It's easy to mix up the test orders, handing out different versions the the students. But writing new tests from scratch every semester? That's a HUGE effort. There are a some programs that help with creating different versions
Maybe the OP's son could mention to the teacher that since lots of kids seem to have access to to the previous tests, could he make it available to everyone for studying purposes?
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Post by gmcwife1 on Apr 25, 2016 19:17:31 GMT
Part of my job is writing test banks for use in science curricula. It's really hard to write good test questions. A lot harder than you'd think. It's easy to mix up the test orders, handing out different versions the the students. But writing new tests from scratch every semester? That's a HUGE effort. There are a some programs that help with creating different versions Maybe the OP's son could mention to the teacher that since lots of kids seem to have access to to the previous tests, could he make it available to everyone for studying purposes? I can imagine how hard it is to make new questions and then trying to make sure they are the same difficulty as past questions!
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pudgygroundhog
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Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Apr 25, 2016 19:19:24 GMT
Thank you all! I will let him deal with it if he wants. If he's unsure how to start the conversation with his teacher he can always ask if his teacher considers studying past tests cheating. It would be a good conversation given the different views of doing that on this thread Part of my job is writing test banks for use in science curricula. It's really hard to write good test questions. A lot harder than you'd think. It's easy to mix up the test orders, handing out different versions the the students. But writing new tests from scratch every semester? That's a HUGE effort. There are a some programs that help with creating different versions Maybe the OP's son could mention to the teacher that since lots of kids seem to have access to to the previous tests, could he make it available to everyone for studying purposes? I think these are good approaches, especially asking if previous tests can be available to everybody.
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Post by whopea on Apr 25, 2016 19:20:09 GMT
How can you not see studying pass tests as cheating?! All you have to do is memorize answers and you don't have to understand a darn thing! I also do not understand how the teacher cannot see how this would be a problem! I don't understand how anyone can see it as cheating. When kids are studying for standardized tests they take practice tests, which are previous tests. When you study for the SATs you take practice tests, which are previous released tests. When I studied for the Bar Exam, I studied by working through previous released tests. It's an extremely common study method. But in the case of standardized tests, the actual test is different. Studying a test that stays the same is the equivalent of having it before everyone else and it checks how well the kids memorized answers, not knowledge.
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pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Apr 25, 2016 19:21:59 GMT
Again thanks for the different perspectives! To clarify, last term kids who took biology had tests. This term, the new kids have the exact same test. I asked him if it was the exact same one and he said according to his classmates, yes. When I asked his friend, he said, yes that a bunch of kids pass on their tests because they are exactly the same tests given. Without being a bragging mom (lol) this is an advanced biology class and my son is brought home a mark lower on his midterm than one of the kids who laughed at his (other kid) saying that he got a 90-something without opening a text book. I do find it unfair and I really do subscribe to the life is unfair rule in my house. It just really bothered me. To me it is clearly cheating. I will take the advice of telling him to talk to his teacher if it continues to bug him. As an aside, I did tell him that he might have been getting lower marks because he challenges the teacher when she gets answers wrong and she might not 'like' him. Thankfully the brightest girl in the class. Is often on his side too. What was the format of the test? I guess I'm kind of surprised an advanced biology class had a test that was so easily memorized? In my mind, studying an old test helps learn the material as well - I guess I wasn't picturing it as a multiple choice test where you just had to memorize a series of letters. My experience though is colored by my own college experience where professors gave us their old tests themselves to use as study aids.
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pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Apr 25, 2016 19:24:11 GMT
I don't understand how anyone can see it as cheating. When kids are studying for standardized tests they take practice tests, which are previous tests. When you study for the SATs you take practice tests, which are previous released tests. When I studied for the Bar Exam, I studied by working through previous released tests. It's an extremely common study method. But in the case of standardized tests, the actual test is different. Studying a test that stays the same is the equivalent of having it before everyone else and it checks how well the kids memorized answers, not knowledge. It depends on the format and content of the test. Some test taking just tests memorization anyway. It's been awhile since I've been in high school though - are multiple choice questions standard? Again, I'm surprised an advanced biology class would have a test that is so easily memorized, but maybe I'm just out of touch.
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Post by utmr on Apr 25, 2016 19:27:29 GMT
School was a long time ago, but test banks were very common. You studied from the past tests and used it to prepare for the upcoming test. Memorizing "A-B-C" doesn't do any good because the teacher could rearrange the questions or the order of the answers. Working through the questions and knowing that the teacher asks about a certain topic is just good studying.
The CPA exam prep was nothing but old tests over and over. "Be sure to be able to do _____ because they always ask."
I would be concerned that the teacher would penalize OP's son if he complains. His grade might improve if he found a study group to work with.
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,969
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Apr 25, 2016 19:30:12 GMT
Again thanks for the different perspectives! To clarify, last term kids who took biology had tests. This term, the new kids have the exact same test. I asked him if it was the exact same one and he said according to his classmates, yes. When I asked his friend, he said, yes that a bunch of kids pass on their tests because they are exactly the same tests given. Without being a bragging mom (lol) this is an advanced biology class and my son is brought home a mark lower on his midterm than one of the kids who laughed at his (other kid) saying that he got a 90-something without opening a text book. I do find it unfair and I really do subscribe to the life is unfair rule in my house. It just really bothered me. To me it is clearly cheating. I will take the advice of telling him to talk to his teacher if it continues to bug him. As an aside, I did tell him that he might have been getting lower marks because he challenges the teacher when she gets answers wrong and she might not 'like' him. Thankfully the brightest girl in the class. Is often on his side too. What was the format of the test? I guess I'm kind of surprised an advanced biology class had a test that was so easily memorized? In my mind, studying an old test helps learn the material as well - I guess I wasn't picturing it as a multiple choice test where you just had to memorize a series of letters. My experience though is colored by my own college experience where professors gave us their old tests themselves to use as study aids. I've taught advanced biology and used multiple choice questions. If made correctly, they can be quite challenging. Hence the need to reuse them.
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Post by hop2 on Apr 25, 2016 19:31:40 GMT
My grade 11 DS has been discussing incorrect grading on his own since 6th grade.
At that point it had to be him or I'd have been in his English class as often as he was. She frequently switched his grade with another kids whose name started with the same letter. Thankfully she put grades on papers so he could just go show her his paper and she would fix his grade in the computer. I dont know if she ever lowered the other kid's grade as DS never said you gave me x's grade he just said the grade in the computer is not the one in my paper. It took him at least a month to figure out what was happening and he never saw the other kids tests to be sure.
Any way the pint is at grade 11 the first line of contact has to be the child/ young adult. They have to get used to advocating for themselves now because your not going to go to thier professor in college to fix stuff or their job.
At this grade parents should only contact the school/ teacher after the student has exhausted all their lines of communication first.
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Post by whopea on Apr 25, 2016 19:36:20 GMT
What was the format of the test? I guess I'm kind of surprised an advanced biology class had a test that was so easily memorized? In my mind, studying an old test helps learn the material as well - I guess I wasn't picturing it as a multiple choice test where you just had to memorize a series of letters. My experience though is colored by my own college experience where professors gave us their old tests themselves to use as study aids. I've taught advanced biology and used multiple choice questions. If made correctly, they can be quite challenging. Hence the need to reuse them. Challenging only if the test varies the sequence or version each semester. I despised science in school and even I could pass an advanced biology exam if you gave me a copy of the test with correct answers and a day or two to study. This assumes that you don't change the wording of the question or the order of the questions, which I believe is the OP's complaint.
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pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Apr 25, 2016 20:14:29 GMT
What was the format of the test? I guess I'm kind of surprised an advanced biology class had a test that was so easily memorized? In my mind, studying an old test helps learn the material as well - I guess I wasn't picturing it as a multiple choice test where you just had to memorize a series of letters. My experience though is colored by my own college experience where professors gave us their old tests themselves to use as study aids. I've taught advanced biology and used multiple choice questions. If made correctly, they can be quite challenging. Hence the need to reuse them. Is it possible to change the order of the answers or order of the questions? I think it's a good solution if a teacher reuses a test to not give the tests back if she would like to prevent students from memorizing in the future.
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Post by peasapie on Apr 25, 2016 20:17:58 GMT
I don't understand how anyone can see it as cheating. When kids are studying for standardized tests they take practice tests, which are previous tests. When you study for the SATs you take practice tests, which are previous released tests. When I studied for the Bar Exam, I studied by working through previous released tests. It's an extremely common study method. As I read the OP, only kids who know someone who took the test previously have the advantage of knowing the exact questions from which to study.
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Post by ro on Apr 25, 2016 20:22:56 GMT
To answer a question about the format of the exam -- it is a combo of multiple answers and longer questions. According to his friend, it was the same exact test -- order of questions. At the end of the day, his marks are still great and he can claim real knowledge so I guess I really don't have much to complain about. )
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Post by Darcy Collins on Apr 25, 2016 20:33:19 GMT
I guess it goes to show you how differently our brains are wired. I'd find it a whole lot easier to memorize the answers to the questions than a string of letters. I also have to say - biology is a whole lot of memorization any way your slice it.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Apr 25, 2016 21:51:42 GMT
I don't understand how anyone can see it as cheating. When kids are studying for standardized tests they take practice tests, which are previous tests. When you study for the SATs you take practice tests, which are previous released tests. When I studied for the Bar Exam, I studied by working through previous released tests. It's an extremely common study method. As I read the OP, only kids who know someone who took the test previously have the advantage of knowing the exact questions from which to study.If it's common knowledge that the tests for a certain class are recycled year after year, it wouldn't be difficult at all to get a copy if you ask enough people. What would stop the former student (or anyone really) who has a copy of the test from making copies for all of their friends currently taking the class?
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Post by anonrefugee on Apr 25, 2016 22:24:17 GMT
its been said before- he's eleventh grade, he should deal with this as he feels appropriate. Especially since he's a leader in the class.
I find it hard to believe any teacher doing this isn't aware of what is happening. Are you sure the teacher hasn't announced kids should study past resources?
I'd also caution students to avoid making judgments about others. I had the kid scoring 5s on his AP exams and high scores on his class tests, but couldn't be bothered to turn in all homework in eleventh grade. He might have had sloppy habits but he wasn't cheating. Sometimes the happy go lucky guy is brighter than the one trying to prove it.
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Post by freecharlie on Apr 25, 2016 22:31:42 GMT
I spend hours making tests each chapter. I use some test bank questions but I make a lot from scratch. That involves finding or making diagrams that match my material. I will reuse the tests semester after semester. To say I am lazy in doing so is both ignorant and insulting. Because I reuse them, I don't hand them or the answer sheets back. Students are encouraged to come to tutoring to review their mistakes. Do you at least make up a few different versions of the test to use year to year? Even if you don't let them keep their tests, it's pretty easy for one student to tell another what was on the diagram or the more challenging parts of the test, isn't it? And wouldn't that be an unfair advantage for a kid who, say, had an older sibling in your class? barring a multiple choice test, if the siblings studied and knew the answer, then they knew the answer.
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Post by pierkiss on Apr 25, 2016 22:35:43 GMT
You should support your son in what he wants to do to better his grade.
But, you absolutely should give a heads up to the teacher that the previous years tests are being passed around to the younger students, who are using them to cheat. It's just bad practice to never change your tests up. If you are uncomfortable doing it now notify her after the school year is over. Or contact admin and let them know and have them tell her.
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Country Ham
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Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Apr 25, 2016 22:47:34 GMT
I spend hours making tests each chapter. I use some test bank questions but I make a lot from scratch. That involves finding or making diagrams that match my material. I will reuse the tests semester after semester. To say I am lazy in doing so is both ignorant and insulting. Because I reuse them, I don't hand them or the answer sheets back. Students are encouraged to come to tutoring to review their mistakes.
Take math. My son has a high enough average he represented his jr high class at a math competition this year (yes he is a typical pea kid that has straight As cumulative average of 98.6 last report card). When he does make a mistake on a test he expects to see the test, and double check the problem to see if he just plain didn't understand it or if he misplaced a decimal. I couldn't imagine having him to go to tutoring in order to get access to his quiz/test paper. Plus being told you made a 95 but not knowing what you got wrong how do know what area needs a little more concentration? I understand using the same tests. I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with not giving kids back their work.
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