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Post by 950nancy on Apr 25, 2016 22:49:54 GMT
How can you not see studying pass tests as cheating?! All you have to do is memorize answers and you don't have to understand a darn thing! I also do not understand how the teacher cannot see how this would be a problem! I don't understand how anyone can see it as cheating. When kids are studying for standardized tests they take practice tests, which are previous tests. When you study for the SATs you take practice tests, which are previous released tests. When I studied for the Bar Exam, I studied by working through previous released tests. It's an extremely common study method. Sometimes teachers use the exact same test. My son found in college that one of his teachers just took questions off the internet and used a test created by another professor who used the same book who was several states away. My husband, teaches at a college, and said that some teachers are just lazy and take short cuts. His students were angry that he did not have a bank of questions to study from on line. My husband told them that all of the information is given in his power points. They had to attend class. I think they were used to being able to take the short cut. Personally, I think the teacher should know that he needs to be more thoughtful in his assessment approach.
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Post by 950nancy on Apr 25, 2016 22:54:45 GMT
I spend hours making tests each chapter. I use some test bank questions but I make a lot from scratch. That involves finding or making diagrams that match my material. I will reuse the tests semester after semester. To say I am lazy in doing so is both ignorant and insulting. Because I reuse them, I don't hand them or the answer sheets back. Students are encouraged to come to tutoring to review their mistakes.
Take math. My son has a high enough average he represented his jr high class at a math competition this year (yes he is a typical pea kid that has straight As cumulative average of 98.6 last report card). When he does make a mistake on a test he expects to see the test, and double check the problem to see if he just plain didn't understand it or if he misplaced a decimal. I couldn't imagine having him to go to tutoring in order to get access to his quiz/test paper. Plus being told you made a 95 but not knowing what you got wrong how do know what area needs a little more concentration? I understand using the same tests. I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with not giving kids back their work. I think kids do need to see their work and how they scored. My youngest son's professor gives them back their tests but tells them they haven't been recorded and that they need to pass them back after they have seen their score. Tutoring is also for feedback (the number one factor in a child's grade) and not just for the underperforming. My kid would show up to find out why he got something wrong.
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,969
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Apr 25, 2016 22:58:25 GMT
I spend hours making tests each chapter. I use some test bank questions but I make a lot from scratch. That involves finding or making diagrams that match my material. I will reuse the tests semester after semester. To say I am lazy in doing so is both ignorant and insulting. Because I reuse them, I don't hand them or the answer sheets back. Students are encouraged to come to tutoring to review their mistakes.
Take math. My son has a high enough average he represented his jr high class at a math competition this year (yes he is a typical pea kid that has straight As cumulative average of 98.6 last report card). When he does make a mistake on a test he expects to see the test, and double check the problem to see if he just plain didn't understand it or if he misplaced a decimal. I couldn't imagine having him to go to tutoring in order to get access to his quiz/test paper. Plus being told you made a 95 but not knowing what you got wrong how do know what area needs a little more concentration? I understand using the same tests. I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with not giving kids back their work. And you would be one of the few parents that takes issue with my policy. As we see with the OPI, someone is going to a problem if tests are released. Since I obviously cannot please everyone, I might as well do what makes my life easier.
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Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,314
Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Apr 25, 2016 23:09:58 GMT
Take math. My son has a high enough average he represented his jr high class at a math competition this year (yes he is a typical pea kid that has straight As cumulative average of 98.6 last report card). When he does make a mistake on a test he expects to see the test, and double check the problem to see if he just plain didn't understand it or if he misplaced a decimal. I couldn't imagine having him to go to tutoring in order to get access to his quiz/test paper. Plus being told you made a 95 but not knowing what you got wrong how do know what area needs a little more concentration? I understand using the same tests. I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with not giving kids back their work. And you would be one of the few parents that takes issue with my policy. As we see with the OPI, someone is going to a problem if tests are released. Since I obviously cannot please everyone, I might as well do what makes my life easier. What is your tutoring policy then? A pull out during regular school hours? Kids have to give up their after school extra curricular activities in order to go to tutoring just to see what they got wrong on a test? How can kids learn from their mistakes if they can't actually see their mistakes? ETA or can the request some 1 on 1 time during the day?
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,969
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Apr 25, 2016 23:17:55 GMT
And you would be one of the few parents that takes issue with my policy. As we see with the OPI, someone is going to a problem if tests are released. Since I obviously cannot please everyone, I might as well do what makes my life easier. What is your tutoring policy then? A pull out during regular school hours? Kids have to give up their after school extra curricular activities in order to go to tutoring just to see what they got wrong on a test? How can kids learn from their mistakes if they can't actually see their mistakes? ETA or can the request some 1 on 1 time during the day? Any morning before school starts. During lunchtime tutorial (we have two lunch periods so kids have built in time. After school three days a week. I really don't care if tutoring makes a kid late for soccer practice. Academics come first. ETA, our coaches aren't supposed to care either. When one grumbles to a student, I politely remind the coach of our school policy. Practices don't start until 30 minutes after school lets out. Plenty of time to review an old test.
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The Great Carpezio
Pearl Clutcher
Something profound goes here.
Posts: 2,973
Jun 25, 2014 21:50:33 GMT
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Apr 25, 2016 23:18:15 GMT
It's 2016. Kids, literally, have cheating at their fingertips. Also, remember---it's 2016. Assessment is changing. This year I've put about 70% of my assessments online. This allows me to mix up questions and answers. Still, if a kid wants to cheat, a kid will cheat.
I simply don't have the resources to create different tests for each section and each year (I do mix up the questions and change the essay questions from year to year though). AND, we are supposed to all use common assessments so ALL of us teaching, say 11B English, give the same Unit 4 benchmark test.
Anyway, it depends on the test. Some I don't return, some I don't put the grade in before they hand them back (but if they are sneaky they can take a picture anyway), some (now that it is available), tells them right away of it was wrong.
Oh, and only about 40% of my assessments are actual exams. Papers, projects, presentations, performances, portfolios, websites, blogs, etc... Fill out the rest of my assessments.
With all that said, I think your son should seek clarification from the teacher.
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Post by anonrefugee on Apr 25, 2016 23:19:45 GMT
And you would be one of the few parents that takes issue with my policy. As we see with the OPI, someone is going to a problem if tests are released. Since I obviously cannot please everyone, I might as well do what makes my life easier. What is your tutoring policy then? A pull out during regular school hours? Kids have to give up their after school extra curricular activities in order to go to tutoring just to see what they got wrong on a test? How can kids learn from their mistakes if they can't actually see their mistakes? ETA or can the request some 1 on 1 time during the day? Not a teacher, only the mom of bright slacker child. Teachers have been accommodating of his intense schedule, knowing practices prohibit him attending their scheduled tutorials. If it's only 1-2 problems they work together to find a way. Or he gets his self to their tutorial- respect !!! It seems like most appreciate a curious kid trying to solve a problem. Our teachers can't be that unique.
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Post by coaliesquirrel on Apr 25, 2016 23:27:13 GMT
When I was in college, all the Greek houses and some of the dorms had test files, and I know for sure the administration knew it was going on. It didn't break any honor code or anything to have them UNLESS they'd been come by nefariously somehow. Some profs changed questions each term, some kept tests after you'd gotten a chance to review. An instructor should be smart enough to do one or the other.
FWIW, my dad used to teach high school math (pre-algebra, algebra, geometry) in the days of typewriters and hand-crank mimeography. He hand-wrote all his test (and worksheet) "masters" and hand-drew diagrams where needed. You bet your butt he reused those things! He collected them back after review period in class, and allowed students to come in for one-on-one review/questions if needed. He was there an hour before school, and and hour after school every day (except payday Fridays), plus he welcomed students during his planning periods if they could be excused from other classes or had a study hall. Those extra hours weren't just for test review, either - he welcomed scheduled appointments or walk-ins at any time during the term if students needed extra help. I remember him sitting at our dining room table helping students sometimes, too, if they needed it.
Reusing questions doesn't make you a lazy instructor; it makes you able to devote more time to actually HELPING students instead of drafting & redrafting tests. However, I agree that it does make you an irresponsible instructor if you reuse exams and freely hand them back for students to keep.
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Post by karen on Apr 25, 2016 23:40:32 GMT
Part of my job is writing test banks for use in science curricula. It's really hard to write good test questions. A lot harder than you'd think. It's easy to mix up the test orders, handing out different versions the the students. But writing new tests from scratch every semester? That's a HUGE effort. There are a some programs that help with creating different versions Maybe the OP's son could mention to the teacher that since lots of kids seem to have access to to the previous tests, could he make it available to everyone for studying purposes? I can imagine how hard it is to make new questions and then trying to make sure they are the same difficulty as past questions! This, exactly. It is hard to write GOOD test questions and to have the right answer choices. If it is biology, how many options could they even have? I think the material that they would test over would be set. Perhaps changing the order of the questions or answer choices, or adding short answer style questions is in order.
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Post by melanell on Apr 26, 2016 0:55:24 GMT
Grade 11? Nope.
And I'm with myshelly on the cheating thing. Using prior years' tests to study is pretty standard.
Whenever I've had teachers who do use the same test year-to-year, they hand them back to the students in class so that they can look them over, then collect them again at the end of class so that they can't be handed around to next year's class. My son has a science teacher who keeps everything. Just tells them their grades. He hates that because he likes to use the weekly quizzes and smaller tests when studying for finals. Plus he wants to work through his mistakes etc. When my son was in elementary school, we always sat down with his corrected quizzes/tests, which came home to be signed, and looked at what he answered incorrectly and corrected it. It was such a great extra chance to learn. Plus, if he have small section quizzes that lead up to a larger chapter test, those small quizzes were great to use as study guides. It was something we both had to adapt to when he went to middle school and most exams no longer were sent home. So I totally understand how your son feels about that. But, particularly at higher grade levels, I can also understand why teachers don't allow tests to come home, too.
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scrapaddie
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,090
Jul 8, 2014 20:17:31 GMT
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Post by scrapaddie on Apr 26, 2016 1:04:23 GMT
How can you not see studying pass tests as cheating?! All you have to do is memorize answers and you don't have to understand a darn thing! I also do not understand how the teacher cannot see how this would be a problem! I don't understand how anyone can see it as cheating. When kids are studying for standardized tests they take practice tests, which are previous tests. When you study for the SATs you take practice tests, which are previous released tests. When I studied for the Bar Exam, I studied by working through previous released tests. It's an extremely common study method. And in This instance, the teacher is using the same test, all the student has to do is memorize the answers in order - they don't even have to look at the questions. CABDDADC. tTFFFTTF. Mitochondria less carbon inner. Electron pump. I am certain you could memorize all of that very easily, but does that mean that you know anything about cellular respiration? This is a ldifferent than using old tests as practice test and study guides When that old test is not going to be the test
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Post by ro on Apr 26, 2016 14:23:45 GMT
Just popped in to say that in 10 years at 2P's and now here at Refupeas, this is the longest thread I've ever 'started', lol.
A small update, typical of a 16 yo boy, he's over the 'unfairness' lol!
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