pridemom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,843
Jul 12, 2014 21:58:10 GMT
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Post by pridemom on Jun 10, 2016 22:50:05 GMT
Many, not all. My Juvenile RA is genetic. It started by age five for me. To say I made lifestyle choices to cause my genetic autoimmune disease is insulting and insensitive. Two month old babies get this and they certainly aren't acquire this due to lifestyle choices. Damn, this stuff pisses me off. Do you preach this stuff to people with cerebral palsy, muscular dystrophy, and multiple sclerosis? For the record, I work and have always worked. In college I worked two full time jobs during the summer. But I don't know how long I will be able to work full time. If I have to eventually apply for disability, I won't tell anyone because of the judgmental attitudes and ignorance above. did you even read what I wrote on this thread? ? no one has said or implied that anyone's individual disability is lifestyle related and I went to VERY great pains to communicate that I realize that there are many causes of disability that are not lifestyle related. if the scenarios outlined in this thread don't apply to you....then they don't apply to you-don't look for an insult or dig that simply doesn't exist. Thank you. I did not fully read and apologize. The first section bothered me so much that I didn't thoroughly read.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jun 10, 2016 22:51:36 GMT
my family is a mix of liberal and conservative and we often have heated discussions about various issues. One thing that continues to puzzle me about the conservative viewpoint is as it relates to the cost and appropriateness of welfare programs/spending my research shows that the cost of TANF (my numbers might not be the absolute latest and greatest) is $21B and SSI is $43.7B yet, I never hear much grumbling about the high cost of disabilty here in the US given that so many chronic health conditions are life style related (and YES, I am fully aware that there are MANY chronic health conditions that occur due to no "fault" of an individual)generally speaking, do people have a responsibility to keep themselves as healthy as possible in order to avoid having to go on publicly funded disability? should disability be paid to people who have conditions that were caused by lifestyle? is disability a form of "welfare" in these cases? I know there are people scamming the system for both TANF and disability and I think that all of us (on both sides of the political spectrum)agree that fraud needs to be pursued. I hear a lot of grumbles about people needing to get a job and get off welfare, but almost nothing about disability and the poor choices that led some people (SOME, NOT ALL) to end up in the disability program thoughts? This is a good point. I am a firm believer that the majority of the chronic health problems that people have are related to lifestyle (eating poor food--through our own choices as well as the systemic destruction of our food sources), lack of exercise, other environmental issues. That includes mental health issues, cancer, autoimmune issues, chronic pain, etc. Of course those diseases would not go completely away if our food sources changed and there were no/fewer chemicals in the environment, but I strongly believe they can be greatly reduced. Pesticides have been found in rain water, cord blood, and in the systems of adults and kids. Why is nobody looking to that as a cause for autism or other health issues? That is just one example of environmental problems that we have that are most likely causing health issues for many people. As it is, we are going to have to figure out who is going to support the growing number of people who today would likely qualify for disability due to autism and other chronic health issues. ^^^ basketdiva : @iamkristin16 said what you quoted, not not2peased . There's waaaaaay too many shades of gray in this debate for me; I'd rather err on the side of helping more people than less, personally. I've done a lot of research on obesity, food, sugar, fructose, etc. because I'm in the middle of losing a great deal of weight through a doctor-supervised weight loss plan... SO MANY things in our society are set up for us to make poor / bad health and lifestyle decisions, from the way our cities and towns are laid out now, the food offerings in the grocery store, how foods, restaurants, etc. are marketed to us, the food and drinks our kids are offered and sold in their schools, etc. etc. etc. Not to mention the fact that the decision of *lifestyle* and 'whose fault it is' is such a difficult- if not impossible- one, given all the factors that play into it. If toddlers and small children are now becoming obese and elementary school age children are being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, are they at fault for that? Of course not (I would hope), right?? Their parents are the ones who make their food choices for them. But what happens when that child grows up to be an adult who is obese, still has type 2 diabetes, and still makes the same food choices because that's what they know and have grown up with (or because they live in a food desert, etc. etc.)?? Does it magically somehow become 'their fault' then?? On the other hand, researchers are starting to find out that some people who overeat have a deficiency in their hormonal pathways which means their brain doesn't get the signal that tells them they're 'full' and not still hungry. They've also done studies that show high-fat and high-sugar foods trigger the same part of some peoples' brains that addictive drugs do, thus causing an actual bona-fide *addiction* to high-fat and high-sugar foods which causes the person to want more of the same. (I can attest to that first-hand, as can Morgan Spurlock in the movie Supersize Me, if you'd like to see it in action.) Is it the obese adult's fault that their brain doesn't tell them they're full or that their addicted brain tells them they'd rather have a burger than a salad?? I don't think so, at least not totally, and not the way our society and health care system is currently set up. I can tell you from actual experience that when I finally WANTED to do something about my weight, the primary care physician I went to- who I only had, like 10 minutes with, of course- said to me, "Just don't eat anything bigger than your fist, and walk 30 minutes every day." Really?? Come on!! Hey, Twinkies are smaller than my fist, so I can eat them and lose weight?? Of course not. (I found a different primary care doctor, by the way.) I had to stumble upon a weight loss clinic and a bariatric specialist MD in order to finally get on the right track and get the correct education. And I have a LOT of risk factors and previous health issues (ovarian cancer at 43 and a stroke at 39) but does my health insurance cover my medical weight loss plan?? Nope-- it would cover it if I HAD diabetes already, but it won't cover the fact that I want to PREVENT GETTING diabetes. I think there's WAY too much screwed up with too many things ffor anyone to start making decisions about 'whose fault' any of it is and then deny them assistance or benefits becasue of it... but then again, I believe the same thing about those 'welfare queens' and 'lazy ass people who pop out kids just because they dont' want to work' too, so... My short answer to the original poster's question is I have no idea why some people complain about people who receive financial assistance for various reasons and not for others. I figure it's probably due to their personal past experiences or to their prejudices. (sorry about the rant but this kind of issue is really a hot button one for me because of my recent experiences.) Not to mention
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Post by shaniam on Jun 10, 2016 22:54:25 GMT
I have no answers. It is a flawed system. I have family who need assistance and can't get it and have family "working" the system.
You can't make people make healthy choices. I have a lot in my family who are ill because of their lifestyle choices. Those choices will ultimately be their cause of death. They have had nutrition counseling and know what they are doing to cause their problems but do not try to help themselves.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Jun 10, 2016 23:05:33 GMT
I hate to see truly needy people go without. I think we have a moral responsibility to help those who cannot work. I have a lot of compassion for people like my aunt who had MS and in her later years could not work. She needed the help. She worked her whole life and paid into the system. I almost wish there was a way with any kind of social programs to call in and give an anonymous tip in the case where people believe there is fraud going on. I think something like this would go a long way toward changing public perception of abuse in social programs.
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basketdiva
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,649
Jun 26, 2014 11:45:09 GMT
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Post by basketdiva on Jun 10, 2016 23:10:18 GMT
Not2peased, I apologize for my error in mixing up who said what.
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Post by elaine on Jun 10, 2016 23:24:16 GMT
This is a good point. I am a firm believer that the majority of the chronic health problems that people have are related to lifestyle ...^^^ basketdiva : @iamkristin16 said what you quoted, not not2peased . There's waaaaaay too many shades of gray in this debate for me; I'd rather err on the side of helping more people than less, personally. I've done a lot of research on obesity, food, sugar, fructose, etc. because I'm in the middle of losing a great deal of weight through a doctor-supervised weight loss plan... SO MANY things in our society are set up for us to make poor / bad health and lifestyle decisions, from the way our cities and towns are laid out now, the food offerings in the grocery store, how foods, restaurants, etc. are marketed to us, the food and drinks our kids are offered and sold in their schools, etc. etc. etc. Not to mention the fact that the decision of *lifestyle* and 'whose fault it is' is such a difficult- if not impossible- one, given all the factors that play into it. If toddlers and small children are now becoming obese and elementary school age children are being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, are they at fault for that? Of course not (I would hope), right?? Their parents are the ones who make their food choices for them. But what happens when that child grows up to be an adult who is obese, still has type 2 diabetes, and still makes the same food choices because that's what they know and have grown up with (or because they live in a food desert, etc. etc.)?? Does it magically somehow become 'their fault' then?? On the other hand, researchers are starting to find out that some people who overeat have a deficiency in their hormonal pathways which means their brain doesn't get the signal that tells them they're 'full' and not still hungry. They've also done studies that show high-fat and high-sugar foods trigger the same part of some peoples' brains that addictive drugs do, thus causing an actual bona-fide *addiction* to high-fat and high-sugar foods which causes the person to want more of the same. (I can attest to that first-hand, as can Morgan Spurlock in the movie Supersize Me, if you'd like to see it in action.) Is it the obese adult's fault that their brain doesn't tell them they're full or that their addicted brain tells them they'd rather have a burger than a salad?? I don't think so, at least not totally, and not the way our society and health care system is currently set up. I can tell you from actual experience that when I finally WANTED to do something about my weight, the primary care physician I went to- who I only had, like 10 minutes with, of course- said to me, "Just don't eat anything bigger than your fist, and walk 30 minutes every day." Really?? Come on!! Hey, Twinkies are smaller than my fist, so I can eat them and lose weight?? Of course not. (I found a different primary care doctor, by the way.) I had to stumble upon a weight loss clinic and a bariatric specialist MD in order to finally get on the right track and get the correct education. And I have a LOT of risk factors and previous health issues (ovarian cancer at 43 and a stroke at 39) but does my health insurance cover my medical weight loss plan?? Nope-- it would cover it if I HAD diabetes already, but it won't cover the fact that I want to PREVENT GETTING diabetes. I think there's WAY too much screwed up with too many things ffor anyone to start making decisions about 'whose fault' any of it is and then deny them assistance or benefits becasue of it... but then again, I believe the same thing about those 'welfare queens' and 'lazy ass people who pop out kids just because they dont' want to work' too, so... My short answer to the original poster's question is I have no idea why some people complain about people who receive financial assistance for various reasons and not for others. I figure it's probably due to their personal past experiences or to their prejudices. (sorry about the rant but this kind of issue is really a hot button one for me because of my recent experiences.) Not to mention
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Post by not2peased on Jun 11, 2016 0:36:17 GMT
thanks basketdiva I still find it odd how many people have so much sympathy for people getting disability and seemingly have none for those who are collecting welfare. people list all of the "reasons" a disabled person can't get better (again, assuming the cause of the disability is lifestyle related) but there seems to be no reasons (that people will accept anyway) to justify someone who is getting welfare because they can't/aren't working I wish we spent money for programs to help people get off welfare and get off of disability (when appropriate, of course) rather than paying people not to work but being short sighted seems to be the only way we deal with problems.
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Post by elaine on Jun 11, 2016 0:44:36 GMT
thanks basketdiva I still find it odd how many people have so much sympathy for people getting disability and seemingly have none for those who are collecting welfare. people list all of the "reasons" a disabled person can't get better (again, assuming the cause of the disability is lifestyle related) but there seems to be no reasons (that people will accept anyway) to justify someone who is getting welfare because they can't/aren't working I wish we spent money for programs to help people get off welfare and get off of disability (when appropriate, of course) rather than paying people not to work but being short sighted seems to be the only way we deal with problems. Huh? I have a TON of sympathy/empathy for people collecting welfare. I know that many here on this thread do too, from participation on other threads. Your OP was all about how little complaining there is about Disability even though a number of people supposedly are on Disability due to their own poor choices. So, people responded to that focus, including me. Do you want a switch of topic as to Welfare recipients? Since you brought up TANF in your OP, as a long-time Navy wife, I know many enlisted families have to resort to food stamps because they aren't paid enough to feed their families. I have no issue with welfare with people who can't support their families for a variety of reasons. As much as the rare anecdote would have you believe, the vast majority of people receiving welfare aren't living the high life and driving Cadillacs. My motto is "There but for the grace of G-d go I." Those are the words I choose to live by. No one NEEDS to be upset with or complain about others receiving social assistance - that is a poor lifestyle choice, IMO. And I'm not sure why there needs to be a competition about who gets complained about more.
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Post by lucyg on Jun 11, 2016 1:13:33 GMT
This thread is making my head spin. (1) no one managed to properly tag iamkristinl16, and she needs to come back and see where this thread has gone. (2) seriously, some of you really did not understand OP's original question. She didn't complain about people getting disability and she didn't blame people on disability for causing their own problems. This was a political post. OP asked why some conservatives complain about people getting welfare who "ought" to be providing for themselves, while those same conservatives don't seem to complain about those on disability, some of whose disabilities are probably caused by lifestyle choices. She wondered about the double standard. I don't think any of us would argue that some disability is self-induced. Does anyone here think there aren't plenty of drug addicts out there living on disability? They're not getting rich, but at least they aren't starving, either ... which, seriously, I think would be a bad thing. KristinL did take it a step further and talked about pesticides and other environmental issues, as well as linking some serious conditions to lifestyle choices that I'm not sure all of us would agree with. I think there has been some serious over-reaction to the OP's fairly innocent question.
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pridemom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,843
Jul 12, 2014 21:58:10 GMT
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Post by pridemom on Jun 11, 2016 1:25:55 GMT
thanks basketdiva I still find it odd how many people have so much sympathy for people getting disability and seemingly have none for those who are collecting welfare. people list all of the "reasons" a disabled person can't get better (again, assuming the cause of the disability is lifestyle related) but there seems to be no reasons (that people will accept anyway) to justify someone who is getting welfare because they can't/aren't working I wish we spent money for programs to help people get off welfare and get off of disability (when appropriate, of course) rather than paying people not to work but being short sighted seems to be the only way we deal with problems. There is extra government funding to help people on disability go back to work. Vocational Rehabitation and the Workfoce programs funded by the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act provide work training and education funding. The problem is that if you're on SSDI, you are limited in the amount of income you can make before you lose your Medicaid. You also are limited in the amount of assets you can have. People with those limits can't afford deductibles and co insurance. They're afraid if they fail in their attempt to work, they will have to fight for their SSDI again. And risk not getting it.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Jun 11, 2016 1:31:03 GMT
I didn't say that all chronic illnesses are a result of lifestyle choices, but I do believe that there is quite a bit of evidence that what we eat, the products we use personally, on our food and in our communities, all greatly affect our health. Genetics play a part as well but those other choices (our own as well as those that are made for us by the Goverment and companies) can affect the expression of our genes as well. I'm sure it would be hard to hear that there was something I did to cause myself to have a disease, but I also would see it as hopeful since I could do something about it to try to improve my situation.
My main point in bringing that up is that I think we need to take a close look at SSDI and how we access it, since there are going to be even more people who have these problems if major changes in our lifestyles and environment are not made. As I said in the thread about welfare, it seems that there is not a one size fits all solution which makes it hard to find one that will work for the majority of people. I know many people who are on SSDI that I think would actually benefit from working, even if part time. But I also know others who would not.
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Post by not2peased on Jun 11, 2016 22:08:42 GMT
thanks basketdiva I still find it odd how many people have so much sympathy for people getting disability and seemingly have none for those who are collecting welfare. people list all of the "reasons" a disabled person can't get better (again, assuming the cause of the disability is lifestyle related) but there seems to be no reasons (that people will accept anyway) to justify someone who is getting welfare because they can't/aren't working I wish we spent money for programs to help people get off welfare and get off of disability (when appropriate, of course) rather than paying people not to work but being short sighted seems to be the only way we deal with problems. Huh? I have a TON of sympathy/empathy for people collecting welfare. I know that many here on this thread do too, from participation on other threads. Your OP was all about how little complaining there is about Disability even though a number of people supposedly are on Disability due to their own poor choices. So, people responded to that focus, including me. Do you want a switch of topic as to Welfare recipients? Since you brought up TANF in your OP, as a long-time Navy wife, I know many enlisted families have to resort to food stamps because they aren't paid enough to feed their families. I have no issue with welfare with people who can't support their families for a variety of reasons. As much as the rare anecdote would have you believe, the vast majority of people receiving welfare aren't living the high life and driving Cadillacs. My motto is "There but for the grace of G-d go I." Those are the words I choose to live by. No one NEEDS to be upset with or complain about others receiving social assistance - that is a poor lifestyle choice, IMO. And I'm not sure why there needs to be a competition about who gets complained about more. I wasn't talking about you at all, LOL what made you think I was? as for whether SOME people are "supposedly" on disability due to lifestyle choices, I didn't make that up, that is a fact as I shared in an earlier post. I was never personally passing judgement on anyone who is either on disability or welfare. I also made it very clear from my very first post that my question was relative to the disparity between society in general being much more "forgiving" of people not working and collecting money due to disability as opposed to not working for other reasons. this thread has ALWAYS been about welfare AND disability, I am not changing topics. as for who I was talking about-I have been on this board for more than 10 years and I have seen MANY posts about the evils of welfare and almost none re: disability. I have also heard many express sympathy for welfare recipients "who really need it" or who need because something happened through no fault of their own, but none of this parsing when it comes to disability. Since I have personally viewed this phenomenon on this board and elsewhere IRL, I wanted to see what people's thoughts were. I have also seen that disability is being cited as an expense that is growing exponentially every single year and already outpaces TANF. I see lots of memes about people paying for someone else not to work, but I never hear this in association with disability-just welfare I wanted to know why that was. I understand this issue hits close to home but your whole "tone" seems to be fairly crabby-you are looking for something that simply isn't there. Nothing I am saying about disability applies to you or your kids, so why take it so personally? I am not attacking anyone, and I am keeping the tone respectful.
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Post by not2peased on Jun 11, 2016 22:09:57 GMT
This thread is making my head spin. (1) no one managed to properly tag iamkristinl16 , and she needs to come back and see where this thread has gone. (2) seriously, some of you really did not understand OP's original question. She didn't complain about people getting disability and she didn't blame people on disability for causing their own problems. This was a political post. OP asked why some conservatives complain about people getting welfare who "ought" to be providing for themselves, while those same conservatives don't seem to complain about those on disability, some of whose disabilities are probably caused by lifestyle choices. She wondered about the double standard. I don't think any of us would argue that some disability is self-induced. Does anyone here think there aren't plenty of drug addicts out there living on disability? They're not getting rich, but at least they aren't starving, either ... which, seriously, I think would be a bad thing. KristinL did take it a step further and talked about pesticides and other environmental issues, as well as linking some serious conditions to lifestyle choices that I'm not sure all of us would agree with. I think there has been some serious over-reaction to the OP's fairly innocent question. thank you! that is exactly my point and why I was asking.
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Post by not2peased on Jun 11, 2016 22:14:22 GMT
thanks basketdiva I still find it odd how many people have so much sympathy for people getting disability and seemingly have none for those who are collecting welfare. people list all of the "reasons" a disabled person can't get better (again, assuming the cause of the disability is lifestyle related) but there seems to be no reasons (that people will accept anyway) to justify someone who is getting welfare because they can't/aren't working I wish we spent money for programs to help people get off welfare and get off of disability (when appropriate, of course) rather than paying people not to work but being short sighted seems to be the only way we deal with problems. There is extra government funding to help people on disability go back to work. Vocational Rehabitation and the Workfoce programs funded by the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act provide work training and education funding. The problem is that if you're on SSDI, you are limited in the amount of income you can make before you lose your Medicaid. You also are limited in the amount of assets you can have. People with those limits can't afford deductibles and co insurance. They're afraid if they fail in their attempt to work, they will have to fight for their SSDI again. And risk not getting it. that is exactly what infuriates me about the states that refused to expand medicaid and those that want ACA repealed-they are hurting their own citizens and foisting the cost of their shortsightedness on the taxpayers by forcing people to choose between working or health insurance. thanks for the perspective, pridemom
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Post by elaine on Jun 11, 2016 22:17:43 GMT
Huh? I have a TON of sympathy/empathy for people collecting welfare. I know that many here on this thread do too, from participation on other threads. Your OP was all about how little complaining there is about Disability even though a number of people supposedly are on Disability due to their own poor choices. So, people responded to that focus, including me. Do you want a switch of topic as to Welfare recipients? Since you brought up TANF in your OP, as a long-time Navy wife, I know many enlisted families have to resort to food stamps because they aren't paid enough to feed their families. I have no issue with welfare with people who can't support their families for a variety of reasons. As much as the rare anecdote would have you believe, the vast majority of people receiving welfare aren't living the high life and driving Cadillacs. My motto is "There but for the grace of G-d go I." Those are the words I choose to live by. No one NEEDS to be upset with or complain about others receiving social assistance - that is a poor lifestyle choice, IMO. And I'm not sure why there needs to be a competition about who gets complained about more. I wasn't talking about you at all, LOL what made you think I was? as for whether SOME people are "supposedly" on disability due to lifestyle choices, I didn't make that up, that is a fact as I shared in an earlier post. I was never personally passing judgement on anyone who is either on disability or welfare. I also made it very clear from my very first post that my question was relative to the disparity between society in general being much more "forgiving" of people not working and collecting money due to disability as opposed to not working for other reasons. this thread has ALWAYS been about welfare AND disability, I am not changing topics. as for who I was talking about-I have been on this board for more than 10 years and I have seen MANY posts about the evils of welfare and almost none re: disability. I have also heard many express sympathy for welfare recipients "who really need it" or who need because something happened through no fault of their own, but none of this parsing when it comes to disability. Since I have personally viewed this phenomenon on this board and elsewhere IRL, I wanted to see what people's thoughts were. I have also seen that disability is being cited as an expense that is growing exponentially every single year and already outpaces TANF. I see lots of memes about people paying for someone else not to work, but I never hear this in association with disability-just welfare I wanted to know why that was. I understand this issue hits close to home but your whole "tone" seems to be fairly crabby-you are looking for something that simply isn't there. Nothing I am saying about disability applies to you or your kids, so why take it so personally? I am not attacking anyone, and I am keeping the tone respectful. My apologies, I will bow out now. You are right, since this is my life it is next to impossible for me not to take it personally and discuss it from a intellectual distance. I never should have posted on the thread - again, my apologies to you for my crabbiness.
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pridemom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,843
Jul 12, 2014 21:58:10 GMT
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Post by pridemom on Jun 11, 2016 22:33:37 GMT
One of the reasons cited for the growth of persons collecting SSDI is the economic downturn in 2008/2009. People lost their jobs, ran out their unemployment insurance and still couldn't find work. Some people with disabilities who were working had so such a hard time finding work, that they ended up applying for SSDI.
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