|
|
Post by librarylady on Jul 8, 2016 0:58:53 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by mollycoddle on Jul 8, 2016 1:04:00 GMT
It's an excellent piece. TFS.
|
|
jayfab
Drama Llama
procastinating
Posts: 5,521 
|
Post by jayfab on Jul 8, 2016 1:57:22 GMT
Great piece. Thanks for posting.
|
|
~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
|
Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 8, 2016 1:58:15 GMT
You were never going to vote for Trump, OP so finding articles to justify it really doesn't mean much. It's not like he's "lost" your vote.
|
|
tincin
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,368
Jul 25, 2014 4:55:32 GMT
|
Post by tincin on Jul 8, 2016 2:13:29 GMT
I would vote for my dog to be president before I would vote for Trump. I dislike Clinton but not as much as I am disgusted by Trump.
|
|
|
|
Post by tmarschall on Jul 8, 2016 2:20:30 GMT
The article was not just a defense of Hillary. The analysis of sexism was excellent. Thank you for sharing it.
|
|
|
|
Post by ellewood on Jul 8, 2016 2:24:26 GMT
I had a whole response written to this post and then my browser crashed. I think that might have been a sign not to get involved in political discussions in my happy place of these boards, but I feel strongly about this so I'm going to try to recreate it.
I read this article a few weeks ago on another site. I think it is a good and important article. In our "post-sexist" society where women proudly proclaim "I'm not a feminist!" (that's a whole other discussion...) it is SO SO SO important to keep the discussion of the undercurrents of sexism in the conversation. Hillary is a lightening rod for these issues because... she's a woman. It is no longer acceptable for women to be told to stay at home, keep your opinions to yourself, be seen and not heard, so the conversations turn to dog whistles: liar, manipulator, bad, sneaky. Sexism is real, it is harmful, and it is insidious. If anyone can look at Hillary's candidacy and say that she has not been the victim of very real unfair judgment based on her sex, that person is deflecting and dismissing the issue.
You may not agree with Hillary's politics, which have been uniformly left for her career (thanks, Bernie, but you did not invent populism), but you cannot say she is not the most experienced person to run for office, definitely in this election and possibly ever. When I hear the statistic that people think Donald Trump is more honest than Hillary Clinton, my blood boils. She is being held a dramatically different standard than her male peers.
|
|
|
|
Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jul 8, 2016 2:36:16 GMT
I had a whole response written to this post and then my browser crashed. I think that might have been a sign not to get involved in political discussions in my happy place of these boards, but I feel strongly about this so I'm going to try to recreate it. I read this article a few weeks ago on another site. I think it is a good and important article. In our "post-sexist" society where women proudly proclaim "I'm not a feminist!" (that's a whole other discussion...) it is SO SO SO important to keep the discussion of the undercurrents of sexism in the conversation. Hillary is a lightening rod for these issues because... she's a woman. It is no longer acceptable for women to be told to stay at home, keep your opinions to yourself, be seen and not heard, so the conversations turn to dog whistles: liar, manipulator, bad, sneaky. Sexism is real, it is harmful, and it is insidious. If anyone can look at Hillary's candidacy and say that she has not been the victim of very real unfair judgment based on her sex, that person is deflecting and dismissing the issue. You may not agree with Hillary's politics, which have been uniformly left for her career (thanks, Bernie, but you did not invent populism), but you cannot say she is not the most experienced person to run for office, definitely in this election and possibly ever. When I hear the statistic that people think Donald Trump is more honest than Hillary Clinton, my blood boils. She is being held a dramatically different standard than her male peers. Nicely and thoughtfully stated.  |
|
|
|
Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jul 8, 2016 2:38:06 GMT
You were never going to vote for Trump, OP so finding articles to justify it really doesn't mean much. It's not like he's "lost" your vote. I think you just get off being nasty to people. To the OP it meant something to her, you have no right to tell her that it doesn't mean much. You can just go stuff a sock in it. |
|
|
|
Post by ntsf on Jul 8, 2016 2:52:35 GMT
I think too that after listening today to the guy who is the head of fbi.. she may have made mistakes on 3-4 emails..with c for classified buried in the text of the email.. of over 50,000 emails. so she is human and does not walk on water. if we start expecting every person in govt to act perfectly.. even if it is the lowest classified material.. 100% of the time.. no one will want to work for the govt. it was total theater today.. another waste of taxpayer money.
and it is sexism. all politicians lie. that;s how they get elected. george washington probably lied too. he was a politician. she lies less than many.
|
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on Jul 8, 2016 2:57:23 GMT
Thanks for sharing this. I saw it earlier (maybe mollycoddle linked it in another thread?) and was really tempted to post it in its own thread, but I guess I've been feeling kind of burned out over the politics here. It's such a insightful, positive piece. I hope everyone reads it. |
|
|
|
Post by tmarschall on Jul 8, 2016 3:02:30 GMT
I had a whole response written to this post and then my browser crashed. I think that might have been a sign not to get involved in political discussions in my happy place of these boards, but I feel strongly about this so I'm going to try to recreate it. I read this article a few weeks ago on another site. I think it is a good and important article. In our "post-sexist" society where women proudly proclaim "I'm not a feminist!" (that's a whole other discussion...) it is SO SO SO important to keep the discussion of the undercurrents of sexism in the conversation. Hillary is a lightening rod for these issues because... she's a woman. It is no longer acceptable for women to be told to stay at home, keep your opinions to yourself, be seen and not heard, so the conversations turn to dog whistles: liar, manipulator, bad, sneaky. Sexism is real, it is harmful, and it is insidious. If anyone can look at Hillary's candidacy and say that she has not been the victim of very real unfair judgment based on her sex, that person is deflecting and dismissing the issue. You may not agree with Hillary's politics, which have been uniformly left for her career (thanks, Bernie, but you did not invent populism), but you cannot say she is not the most experienced person to run for office, definitely in this election and possibly ever. When I hear the statistic that people think Donald Trump is more honest than Hillary Clinton, my blood boils. She is being held a dramatically different standard than her male peers. Marry me. Ha! Seriously, so good. |
|
|
|
Post by tmarschall on Jul 8, 2016 3:13:12 GMT
I think too that after listening today to the guy who is the head of fbi.. she may have made mistakes on 3-4 emails..with c for classified buried in the text of the email.. of over 50,000 emails. so she is human and does not walk on water. if we start expecting every person in govt to act perfectly.. even if it is the lowest classified material.. 100% of the time.. no one will want to work for the govt. it was total theater today.. another waste of taxpayer money. and it is sexism. all politicians lie. that;s how they get elected. george washington probably lied too. he was a politician. she lies less than many. Yes. As I sat watching most of the 4 hrs of hearing today with the FBI director Comey, (ugh, kill me now...) I was struck by the same thing. 3 emails...I understand the importance of safeguarding information and that depending on what it is, even one could be significant in the wrong hands. However, what are our expectations? Her actions were described as careless. Not intentionally wreckless. She made mistakes. Do we expect perfection for fallible human beings? She acknowledged her actions and said she wouldn't have the same arrangements now that she knew. Comey said she was technologically unsophisticated, which I suspect many of us are, in matters such as these. Granted we aren't the Secretary of State. She should have known. She didn't. Three emails of sixty thousand. Designated with only (c). What seems to be missing is the acknowledgement of the imperfection of human existence. And women are not allowed to make the same mistakes as men. Or seek power as men. Sexism is real. |
|
|
|
Post by tmarschall on Jul 8, 2016 3:25:46 GMT
Thanks for sharing this. I saw it earlier (maybe mollycoddle linked it in another thread?) and was really tempted to post it in its own thread, but I guess I've been feeling kind of burned out over the politics here. It's such a insightful, positive piece. I hope everyone reads it. Lucy, I understand feeling burned out on politics here. I hope it won't keep you from contributing. I don't post much...trying to participate more...but I have been around a very long time. I appreciate what you add to the conversation. And when it gets bogged down, I think about how much it has changed here over the years. When I first came to Nsbr probably 15yrs ago, there was no dialogue like this. There was one lone thread of rebellion that a handful of liberal peas dared to post on. People were not out, themselves or their beautiful daughters getting married to a woman and sharing their pictures...and getting amazing warm feedback. People weren't safe to celebrate their beloved transgender children or talk about the exit from the religion of their childhood. I am proud of what this community has become, even with the squabbling. And a large part of what I see is progress is a result of people like you moving the conversation forward. It certainly didn't become this way because of people like me, sitting on my butt reading every day all these years, benefitting but not participating. Your politics resonate with mine, but I'd like to think I would want to honor your thoughtful participation even if they didn't. So please hang in there. 😊😊😊 Tracy |
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on Jul 8, 2016 4:51:58 GMT
Thanks for sharing this. I saw it earlier (maybe mollycoddle linked it in another thread?) and was really tempted to post it in its own thread, but I guess I've been feeling kind of burned out over the politics here. It's such a insightful, positive piece. I hope everyone reads it. Lucy, I understand feeling burned out on politics here. I hope it won't keep you from contributing. I don't post much...trying to participate more...but I have been around a very long time. I appreciate what you add to the conversation. And when it gets bogged down, I think about how much it has changed here over the years. When I first came to Nsbr probably 15yrs ago, there was no dialogue like this. There was one lone thread of rebellion that a handful of liberal peas dared to post on. People were not out, themselves or their beautiful daughters getting married to a woman and sharing their pictures...and getting amazing warm feedback. People weren't safe to celebrate their beloved transgender children or talk about the exit from the religion of their childhood. I am proud of what this community has become, even with the squabbling. And a large part of what I see is progress is a result of people like you moving the conversation forward. It certainly didn't become this way because of people like me, sitting on my butt reading every day all these years, benefitting but not participating. Your politics resonate with mine, but I'd like to think I would want to honor your thoughtful participation even if they didn't. So please hang in there. 😊😊😊 Tracy Oh my gosh. That is lovely. Thank you so, so much. I'm sure I'll get my pea politics mojo back. I'm just sick right now of having the same arguments with the same people, over and over again. But it's like childbirth ... soon enough I'll forget and then I'll come back for more. LOL Right now I'm watching the news from Dallas and just want to cry.  |
|
|
|
Post by tmarschall on Jul 8, 2016 9:46:50 GMT
Youth welcome. And I get it...not childbirth, bc I've not been through that particular he'll, but this is the Hotel California after all. 😊
I am a political news junkie. So much pain in out world. I want to look away tonight, but I can't. If I can blow almost 4 hrs watching the tedium of parsing email negligence, I have to also watch when out children and brothers and sisters are getting gunned down in the streets due to systemic racism. But my heart hurts.
|
|
|
|
Post by mollycoddle on Jul 8, 2016 10:11:04 GMT
Thanks for sharing this. I saw it earlier (maybe mollycoddle linked it in another thread?) and was really tempted to post it in its own thread, but I guess I've been feeling kind of burned out over the politics here. It's such a insightful, positive piece. I hope everyone reads it. Me too, Lucy. I love politics, but I think that I am getting burned out by the political discussions here. They all seem to end in a back and forth between a few people. The old board frequently got ugly, but there were some excellent discussions as well. We don't seem to have that now.  |
|
|
|
Post by ktdoesntscrap on Jul 8, 2016 12:35:38 GMT
You were never going to vote for Trump, OP so finding articles to justify it really doesn't mean much. It's not like he's "lost" your vote. So you know how people are going to vote before they do? Cool trick.  |
|
sweetpeasmom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,592
|
Post by sweetpeasmom on Jul 8, 2016 13:03:09 GMT
Yes. As I sat watching most of the 4 hrs of hearing today with the FBI director Comey, (ugh, kill me now...) I was struck by the same thing. 3 emails...I understand the importance of safeguarding information and that depending on what it is, even one could be significant in the wrong hands. However, what are our expectations? Her actions were described as careless. Not intentionally wreckless. She made mistakes. Do we expect perfection for fallible human beings? She acknowledged her actions and said she wouldn't have the same arrangements now that she knew. Comey said she was technologically unsophisticated, which I suspect many of us are, in matters such as these. Granted we aren't the Secretary of State. She should have known. She didn't. Three emails of sixty thousand. Designated with only (c). What seems to be missing is the acknowledgement of the imperfection of human existence. And women are not allowed to make the same mistakes as men. Or seek power as men. Sexism is real. Sure we are all human. However, take in to consideration Marine Jason Brezler. He served in Afghanistan. He was told by his superiors that they did not have laptops/computers for them and to use his personal one. So he did. Prior to leaving, he inadvertently left 1 file on his computer. One out of how many? It was missed. Chalk it up to human error. He comes home and much later he receives an email from someone now or still serving in Afghanistan asking if he has said file. He looks and realizes he does. He forwards it and then reports to the higher ups what he did to cover his ass. Guess what? He was found not fit to serve as a Marine anymore. Now, if he violated some rule, even if he did it unintentionally, then he needs to face consequences. Why is he held to a different standard than Hillary and her assistants? Save |
|
|
|
Post by mlynn on Jul 8, 2016 14:27:06 GMT
Interesting points. If you must know....I'm not a huge fan of Hillary, but no way in Hell would I vote for Trump. Oddly enough, this is exactly how I feel - but in reverse. Trump is not a good choice, but I cannot in good conscience vote for Hillary. |
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 20, 2024 18:07:20 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 14:34:45 GMT
I'm a Hillary fan and I scoff at the current dog and pony circus, just like those that scoff or disregard it happening prior to her.
#ImWithHer
#NotTrump
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 20, 2024 18:07:20 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2016 19:02:41 GMT
I think too that after listening today to the guy who is the head of fbi.. she may have made mistakes on 3-4 emails..with c for classified buried in the text of the email.. of over 50,000 emails. so she is human and does not walk on water. if we start expecting every person in govt to act perfectly.. even if it is the lowest classified material.. 100% of the time.. no one will want to work for the govt. it was total theater today.. another waste of taxpayer money. and it is sexism. all politicians lie. that;s how they get elected. george washington probably lied too. he was a politician. she lies less than many. It was so much more than 3-4 emails with a (C). To write it off as simply missing a symbol buried in an email and that we're expecting her to walk on water, is not reality. It was: 110 emails in 52 email chains that contained classified INFORMATION
8 of those chains contained top secret INFORMATION
36 of those chains contained secret INFORMATION8 contained confidential INFORMATION |
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 20, 2024 18:07:20 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2016 20:15:09 GMT
Great piece-TFS. I missed it a few days ago.
Some excellent points on sexism.
|
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Jul 10, 2016 22:27:38 GMT
conversations turn to dog whistles: liar, manipulator, bad, sneaky The word "liar" is now a "dog whistle?" A person who lies is a liar. It doesn't matter what sex, sexual orientation, color, creed, or anything else that person is. To call it a "dog whistle" is disingenuous, IMO. |
|
|
|
Post by ellewood on Jul 10, 2016 22:49:08 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by tmarschall on Jul 10, 2016 23:00:22 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 20, 2024 18:07:20 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2016 23:17:49 GMT
Again, it's not the markings that are the problem, but the INFORMATION. 110 emails in 52 email chains that contained classified INFORMATION
8 of those chains contained top secret INFORMATION36 of those chains contained secret INFORMATION
8 contained confidential INFORMATION |
|
|
|
Post by ellewood on Jul 10, 2016 23:39:36 GMT
Again, it's not the markings that are the problem, but the INFORMATION. 110 emails in 52 email chains that contained classified INFORMATION
8 of those chains contained top secret INFORMATION36 of those chains contained secret INFORMATION
8 contained confidential INFORMATIONAccording to the article linked by tmarschall, the INFORMATION may not have been classified: "At a regular briefing for reporters Wednesday, Kirby said State is aware of two instances in the set of roughly 30,000 messages turned over to the agency by Clinton where classification markings appeared in the emails. However, he said those were mistakes where staff failed to remove the notations while preparing background and talking points for Clinton in a planned phone call with a foreign official. "It appears that those...that those markings were a human error. They didn’t need to be there. Because once the secretary had decided to make the call, the process is then to move the call sheet, to change its markings to unclassified and deliver it to the secretary in a form that he or she can use," Kirby said. "And best we can tell on these occasions, the markings — the confidential markings — was simply human error. Because the decision had already been made, they didn’t need to be made on the email."" For the lot of peas here who say "I won't assume I know what happened to those black men who were shot by the police until all of the information comes to light," I'll remark that the same wait-and-see approach isn't afforded to Hillary. |
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 20, 2024 18:07:20 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2016 0:02:04 GMT
Again, it's not the markings that are the problem, but the INFORMATION. 110 emails in 52 email chains that contained classified INFORMATION
8 of those chains contained top secret INFORMATION36 of those chains contained secret INFORMATION
8 contained confidential INFORMATIONAccording to the article linked by tmarschall , the INFORMATION may not have been classified: "At a regular briefing for reporters Wednesday, Kirby said State is aware of two instances in the set of roughly 30,000 messages turned over to the agency by Clinton where classification markings appeared in the emails. However, he said those were mistakes where staff failed to remove the notations while preparing background and talking points for Clinton in a planned phone call with a foreign official. "It appears that those...that those markings were a human error. They didn’t need to be there. Because once the secretary had decided to make the call, the process is then to move the call sheet, to change its markings to unclassified and deliver it to the secretary in a form that he or she can use," Kirby said. "And best we can tell on these occasions, the markings — the confidential markings — was simply human error. Because the decision had already been made, they didn’t need to be made on the email."" For the lot of peas here who say "I won't assume I know what happened to those black men who were shot by the police until all of the information comes to light," I'll remark that the same wait-and-see approach isn't afforded to Hillary. So 2 out of 52 emails have a mark that shouldn't be there? As far as affording Hillary the same approach as those who say wait until the investigation's over and we have all the facts, the investigation is over and the results have been announced already. |
|
AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
|
Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 11, 2016 13:27:19 GMT
Thanks for posting the article. I ignored this thread for days...but I've been ignoring most of the political threads because of the middle school-ish bickering.
It's great to read some opinions/analysis on this thread from people who don't post often in political threads.
No matter what you think of Ms. Clinton, I think there are sobering trends in our collective reactions to her (from individuals and media) vs. a male candidate.
|
|
My original pea date was November 1999 and my number was 1803
