AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,968
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
|
Post by AnotherPea on Oct 16, 2016 13:17:10 GMT
Every time I see an argument against Walmart and big box stores I see a comment about them "forcing" the little Mom and Pop stores out of business. Big = bad, small = good.
What I don't understand is the cut off. Where is it? When does a store that is growing, become an evil empire that must be avoided?
Imagine I have two coffee shops in my town. One caters to the older crowd and one to the younger. Both have a loyal customer base. But the younger one does really well and opens up a second shop. Then a third. Then a fourth. The nearby city gets two shops. Eventually, with loyal, local support, the shop is able to really spread and has 100 stores across the region. Hometown is really proud of the store owners. They've been really successful and made a name for themselves. The other coffee shop isn't doing so well. As its customers have retired, moved away, died, they haven't been replaced. Everyone wants to go to the other store now. Maybe because it is more hip. Maybe because the younger store can buy in larger quantities now, so they can offer lower prices. Maybe because they can buy novelty items to better promote their brand. Maybe because they can afford some top-notch advertising and loyalty programs.
As the younger brand grows, we see the same thing happen across the nation. Small, local shops are closing. Now, after years of hard work they've grown. And as such, they've gone from being the store that people have rooted on, to being the evil shop that closed down a local eatery.
When is growth too much? What exactly *is* the limit on success? You can only draw from a customer base of 30,000? You're only allowed to take in $X.XX? You have a geographical radius?
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 17, 2024 6:27:27 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 13:41:01 GMT
It has nothing to do with growth but EVERYTHING to do with shaddy, unethical, bad business practices when it comes to WalMart.
Mom and Pops do NOT get the tax breaks and deals WalMart does and that hurts them. Their prices are higher to cover all the pay out yet WM doesn't pay those fees because of the deals they have with the city, state, compa.iea they work with.
WM takes out mom and pops not because of growth. But because they are a sick, twisted company that only cares about its bottom line, not how they got there.
|
|
gloryjoy
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,332
Jun 26, 2014 12:35:32 GMT
|
Post by gloryjoy on Oct 16, 2016 13:43:30 GMT
We only have Walmart here in Canada, we did have Target but that's a whole other story. Some Walmarts are good, some are not so good. The one I go to is really nice, has underground parking, clean and organized.
I like to support small business, I purchase a lot of things from the scrapbook store instead of Michaels, go the the local hardware store instead of Home Depot, prefer unique clothing stores, but at some point you have to think about your bottom line too. I buy a lot of things at Walmart because of the price and that makes it harder for smaller stores to compete. But I just can't pay $2 or $3 more for the same item.
As for coffee, I go where I like the coffee. If I want a latte I'm not going to Tim Horton's, if I want a regular coffee I'm not going to Starbucks. I don't always eat at chain places, sometimes I prefer the local eatery.
I don't think there is an easy answer.
|
|
pridemom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,843
Jul 12, 2014 21:58:10 GMT
|
Post by pridemom on Oct 16, 2016 13:44:26 GMT
In my small town, WM bought out the parcels of land big enough for other stores like Target to purchase as a way of controlling competition. That's from someone who worked local WM management.
|
|
|
Post by anonrefugee on Oct 16, 2016 13:57:22 GMT
There are multiple questions and answers to the Walmart issue.
Small factory that retooled for a large order and then Walmart dropped your product with no notice? Mop/Pop general store driven out by Walmart? Negative answer.
Small town, mid/north United State that now gets fresh produce and supplies? And mop/pop coffee shop can thrive in a strip center near it? Positive
|
|
|
Post by anonrefugee on Oct 16, 2016 14:03:50 GMT
In my small town, WM bought out the parcels of land big enough for other stores like Target to purchase as a way of controlling competition. That's from someone who worked local WM management. That's a typical business move, not limited to Walmart. There are some businesses that can help each other by being co-located, like fashion malls. Others that try to be separated. A town near us is growing and people are just discovering one grocery corporation bought most prime grocery spots over the last decade.
|
|
|
Post by dulcemama on Oct 16, 2016 14:09:21 GMT
It has nothing to do with growth but EVERYTHING to do with shaddy, unethical, bad business practices when it comes to WalMart. Mom and Pops do NOT get the tax breaks and deals WalMart does and that hurts them. Their prices are higher to cover all the pay out yet WM doesn't pay those fees because of the deals they have with the city, state, compa.iea they work with. WM takes out mom and pops not because of growth. But because they are a sick, twisted company that only cares about its bottom line, not how they got there. This. I think size comes into play when a company gets big enough that it has fewer connections with it's community and so that doesn't matter to them anymore. Save
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 17, 2024 6:27:27 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 14:25:07 GMT
Add in that Wally's destroys suppliers. Plus they employ thousands, but they don't offer even health care.
And to really just put a cherry on the cake, one of the Walton daughters built a multi-million dollar museum in the f'ing middle of nowhere.
|
|
|
Post by iteach3rdgrade on Oct 16, 2016 14:54:47 GMT
My dh and I own a small business that we started after his father's greenhouse closed down and he retired. His father's business was much larger and different, but I have no desire to have such the stress of a seasonal business. We aren't a greenhouse and we are limited by space and I'm good with that. As long as DH can make enough to operate and keep the employees that he has then I'm good with that. I teach so I have my income that is secure. I'll be free labor when I retire assuming teaching hasn't killed me by then. We offer selection and customer service that big box stores don't. We stay as competitive as we can. Fortunately we had a good customer base from the greenhouse and we have a better location, so we've done well for a new business. We have a handful of good employees and only need to hire a few seasonal people each year. Every year that we have a great year, I remind my dh that next year may not be so great. He knows that, but it's also easy to get caught up in the what ifs and want to grow when you've had an amazing year. You can grow to the point of no return as I call it and the risk is too great. Once you can't handle the slow times the cuts and changes start happening. Someone loses somewhere. I agree. Big business spend enough to be able to manipulate or get better deals from their suppliers. It's great to see business grow, but sad to think that a family lost out. Someone could do that to us one day. We waited for years for someone to buy the old property and run us out of business. It still could happen so it is important to maintain our size and be able to offer what we do.
|
|
purplebee
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,732
Jun 27, 2014 20:37:34 GMT
|
Post by purplebee on Oct 16, 2016 15:02:12 GMT
Add in that Wally's destroys suppliers. Plus they employ thousands, but they don't offer even health care. And to really just put a cherry on the cake, one of the Walton daughters built a multi-million dollar museum in the f'ing middle of nowhere. Alice Walton funded Crystal Bridges Museum with her personal fortune. The museum is free to all, and a program is in place to pay for school field trips to the museum, and lunch is usually provided. The museum is a fantastic cultural oasis in NW Arkansas where I live. It has provided jobs, and has been the catalyst for growth in the region, including retail, restaurants and hotels. Granted, you might say that the museum was built from the labor of underpaid Wal-Mart workers, but I also believe that Ms. Walton could have purchased much of the art currently available in the museum for her own personal pleasure, without thinking of the millions of people who will enjoy and appreciate it because of her generosity.
|
|
|
Post by gmcwife1 on Oct 16, 2016 15:03:14 GMT
In my small town, WM bought out the parcels of land big enough for other stores like Target to purchase as a way of controlling competition. That's from someone who worked local WM management. That's a typical business move, not limited to Walmart. There are some businesses that can help each other by being co-located, like fashion malls. Others that try to be separated. A town near us is growing and people are just discovering one grocery corporation bought most prime grocery spots over the last decade. Often people don't realize what most businesses do to get ahead of the competition. These are really interesting questions and a nice comparison OP. I hope more people come in and don't get stuck in just the WM and coffee examples
|
|
|
Post by gmcwife1 on Oct 16, 2016 15:05:52 GMT
Add in that Wally's destroys suppliers. Plus they employ thousands, but they don't offer even health care. And to really just put a cherry on the cake, one of the Walton daughters built a multi-million dollar museum in the f'ing middle of nowhere. I just saw my sister's WM health insurance card yesterday. She also said she has life insurance and puts into her 401.
|
|
|
Post by secondlife on Oct 16, 2016 15:07:48 GMT
Another impact that national chains have on the local economy is that much of their function is centralized, so all the resources they use are outside the community as well. Accounting, legal, HR, and other professional functions are done (and paid) outside the community. So when a mom and pop can't keep up and closes up, the money they funneled back into the community in terms of business services is lost as well.
This is not a policy argument, just a piece of the puzzle. Local business benefits more people than just those employed by the business.
|
|
|
Post by anonrefugee on Oct 16, 2016 15:16:54 GMT
Add in that Wally's destroys suppliers. Plus they employ thousands, but they don't offer even health care. And to really just put a cherry on the cake, one of the Walton daughters built a multi-million dollar museum in the f'ing middle of nowhere. I thought middle of no where was the point! Why should those in big cities only have the benefit of museums and famous art?
|
|
|
Post by snowsilver on Oct 16, 2016 15:23:29 GMT
Walmart came into our small sized city years ago. They built just outside the mall which was dying. Almost nothing but shoe store left in it. After Walmart opened, the mall began to thrive. It is now full of all kinds of stores. When Walmart came, there was only one chain restaurant open--Applebees. Now we have about 5, AND the small local restaurants are doing better as well. In fact about 5 or 6 more of them have opened in the same area. I can tell you for a fact that Walmart prevented the death of our local shopping area. AND it is not true they don't offer health insurance. In fact they pay a big percentage of their employee's plans. I, personally, hate shopping at Walmart. Hate the crowds. Hate the struggle to find parking. But I am grateful for what it did for our town.
|
|
Loydene
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,639
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Jul 8, 2014 16:31:47 GMT
|
Post by Loydene on Oct 16, 2016 15:31:02 GMT
Add in that Wally's destroys suppliers. Plus they employ thousands, but they don't offer even health care. And to really just put a cherry on the cake, one of the Walton daughters built a multi-million dollar museum in the f'ing middle of nowhere. And is writing off her art collection as a charitable endeavor!
|
|
Loydene
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,639
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Jul 8, 2014 16:31:47 GMT
|
Post by Loydene on Oct 16, 2016 15:34:12 GMT
AND it is not true they don't offer health insurance. In fact they pay a big percentage of their employee's plans. I, personally, hate shopping at Walmart. Hate the crowds. Hate the struggle to find parking. But I am grateful for what it did for our town. The problem is that they don't offer "full time employment" for most of their staffing -- the people at the registers and aisles in the stores. Yes - WalMart offers good wages for upper level and corporate employees - jobs that come with benefits. But, as for the "greeter", the cashiers, the store staff - most of them are not permitted "full time" status -- and only full time employees are eligible for any sort of benefits.
|
|
|
Post by anonrefugee on Oct 16, 2016 15:48:59 GMT
AND it is not true they don't offer health insurance. In fact they pay a big percentage of their employee's plans. I, personally, hate shopping at Walmart. Hate the crowds. Hate the struggle to find parking. But I am grateful for what it did for our town. The problem is that they don't offer "full time employment" for most of their staffing -- the people at the registers and aisles in the stores. Yes - WalMart offers good wages for upper level and corporate employees - jobs that come with benefits. But, as for the "greeter", the cashiers, the store staff - most of them are not permitted "full time" status -- and only full time employees are eligible for any sort of benefits. Is this unusual for retail? I always see Walmart referenced, not other stores. Do Macy's, Home Depot, etc. have those benefits for these positions?
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 17, 2024 6:27:27 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 16:17:44 GMT
When I worked at WM some 20 years ago, 28 hours a week was considered full time and when your benefits started. Not sure if that's how it still is.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 17, 2024 6:27:27 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 16:44:10 GMT
AND it is not true they don't offer health insurance. In fact they pay a big percentage of their employee's plans. I, personally, hate shopping at Walmart. Hate the crowds. Hate the struggle to find parking. But I am grateful for what it did for our town. The problem is that they don't offer "full time employment" for most of their staffing -- the people at the registers and aisles in the stores. Yes - WalMart offers good wages for upper level and corporate employees - jobs that come with benefits. But, as for the "greeter", the cashiers, the store staff - most of them are not permitted "full time" status -- and only full time employees are eligible for any sort of benefits. Where do you get your information? I was working WM in 2004-2007 ALL the greeters/cashiers worked full time with benefits. There were 10 insurance plans I could choose from... I, and many of my co-workers chose none of them because we had insurance from other sources (military for me) There is a LOAD of untrue propaganda floating around out there. Don't be one to spread it.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 17, 2024 6:27:27 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 17:25:04 GMT
The problem is that they don't offer "full time employment" for most of their staffing -- the people at the registers and aisles in the stores. Yes - WalMart offers good wages for upper level and corporate employees - jobs that come with benefits. But, as for the "greeter", the cashiers, the store staff - most of them are not permitted "full time" status -- and only full time employees are eligible for any sort of benefits. Is this unusual for retail? I always see Walmart referenced, not other stores. Do Macy's, Home Depot, etc. have those benefits for these positions? I can tell you that a good chunk of Target employees are part time. Same with Menard's, Walgreen's, and just about every fast food place. This is based on my experience and from people that i know that work for these places. This is not unique to Walmart. Most of the full time jobs at any retail place is limited to management and maybe one or two regular employees per shift and/or department. To get a full time job in any retail place, you often have to prove that you truly want it and are available. I know one girl who works for Walmart. To get a full time position, she had to take other's shifts, work there for a couple of years, and transfer to another department. That's how retail often works.
|
|
|
Post by ktdoesntscrap on Oct 16, 2016 17:58:23 GMT
Every time I see an argument against Walmart and big box stores I see a comment about them "forcing" the little Mom and Pop stores out of business. Big = bad, small = good. What I don't understand is the cut off. Where is it? When does a store that is growing, become an evil empire that must be avoided? Imagine I have two coffee shops in my town. One caters to the older crowd and one to the younger. Both have a loyal customer base. But the younger one does really well and opens up a second shop. Then a third. Then a fourth. The nearby city gets two shops. Eventually, with loyal, local support, the shop is able to really spread and has 100 stores across the region. Hometown is really proud of the store owners. They've been really successful and made a name for themselves. The other coffee shop isn't doing so well. As its customers have retired, moved away, died, they haven't been replaced. Everyone wants to go to the other store now. Maybe because it is more hip. Maybe because the younger store can buy in larger quantities now, so they can offer lower prices. Maybe because they can buy novelty items to better promote their brand. Maybe because they can afford some top-notch advertising and loyalty programs. As the younger brand grows, we see the same thing happen across the nation. Small, local shops are closing. Now, after years of hard work they've grown. And as such, they've gone from being the store that people have rooted on, to being the evil shop that closed down a local eatery. When is growth too much? What exactly *is* the limit on success? You can only draw from a customer base of 30,000? You're only allowed to take in $X.XX? You have a geographical radius? The problem with your analogy is that the two stores don't start on the same footing. Let me try a different story. In my town we have two coffee shops. They serve different clientele, they have different offerings, they are both doing quite well. They hire locally, they bring money into the community, they serve the community well. Then a new coffee shop comes to town they open up three branches, they are a national brand, they can do things cheaper, they can afford to advertise, they pay crappy wages, but the coffee is cheap and the brand is cool. The two mom and pops try hard to compete, but the new place has more locations, more advertising dollars, and cool national brand. ( they pay lower wages, don't hire full time staff and not all the locations are even making a profit) Soon one of the local coffee shops shuts down, then the other. Now everyone has to buy their coffee at the National Brand, soon the national coffee shop shuts down two locations and now there is only one place in town to get a coffee. There is no longer a community feel, wages for those employed by the national coffee place are less and the community is the loser. So where does growth stop making sense. As a company is it your job to ensure no other businesses are harmed in the growth of your business? I think that is only a question you as a business owner or shareholder can answer. What are your company values, is growth the most important factor? The business owners I know didn't go into business for world domination. They don't value growth over anything else.. they focus on their values. At some point you have to decide what matters most to you. I believe there is enough to go around. I think if business stay focused on what they want to achieve, and not on putting the small guy out of business there is room enough in the market for all players. When the big guys use their financial muscle to put the small guys out of business, communities lose.
|
|
|
Post by ktdoesntscrap on Oct 16, 2016 18:01:47 GMT
The problem is that they don't offer "full time employment" for most of their staffing -- the people at the registers and aisles in the stores. Yes - WalMart offers good wages for upper level and corporate employees - jobs that come with benefits. But, as for the "greeter", the cashiers, the store staff - most of them are not permitted "full time" status -- and only full time employees are eligible for any sort of benefits. Where do you get your information? I was working WM in 2004-2007 ALL the greeters/cashiers worked full time with benefits. There were 10 insurance plans I could choose from... I, and many of my co-workers chose none of them because we had insurance from other sources (military for me) There is a LOAD of untrue propaganda floating around out there. Don't be one to spread it. There was a period of time where Walmart was downsizing almost everyone to part time. It was well documented. But interesting I was just reading an article that said Walmart has for the last 12-18 months been focusing on its employees and it has helped turn around their stores around.... www.nytimes.com/2016/10/16/upshot/how-did-walmart-get-cleaner-stores-and-higher-sales-it-paid-its-people-more.html?_r=0
|
|
|
Post by refugeepea on Oct 16, 2016 18:43:52 GMT
It's hard to be outraged at just Wal-Mart when this is nothing new for any big box store. There are few that care (Costco is the only one I can think of that's decent).
I guess I see shopping differently than most. It's a necessity. I'll check out a mom and pop shop if it fits my needs. It's not my duty to keep any business (small or big) going.
Maybe it's because I've been married a long time and the thought of adding more crap to my house or wasting money on an expensive drink on a regular basis in order to support a business has zero appeal. Let's face it, it's a giant PITA for parking in a lot of these areas and it takes a lot of time. I'd rather go to a movie, have a great meal, spend more time with family, or go out in nature than go from 1 small place to another.
Another huge reason for the decline in small businesses is online shopping. I'd rather do that 1000x more than go to a store in person. It's torture to take my son anywhere. He typically behaves better in big box stores because there's room to move. A lot of stores with pricey leases in malls are struggling too.
So anyway, I think most people do what they feel is best for their families. I understand why people ban Wal-Mart, but for others it is literally the only place close enough to them that has decent prices, or the only store within miles that has what they need.
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Oct 16, 2016 18:54:42 GMT
Add in that Wally's destroys suppliers. Plus they employ thousands, but they don't offer even health care. And to really just put a cherry on the cake, one of the Walton daughters built a multi-million dollar museum in the f'ing middle of nowhere. I just saw my sister's WM health insurance card yesterday. She also said she has life insurance and puts into her 401. when my son worked for WM, he was eligible for health insurance but was still covered by DH's so declined it. He had life insurance, a 401K and was able to buy stock via payroll deductions. If fact, technically he still works for WM because when he enlisted, they offered him a military leave of absence (good for up to TEN years of active duty) whereby if he leaves the military he will have a job at WM at the same pay level he was at when he enlisted.
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Oct 16, 2016 19:05:19 GMT
I guess I see big box stores as competing on price and convenience while mom and pop stores need to compete on customer service and more unique merchandise.
I shop what's available to me locally and what carries what I want at a price I'm willing to pay. Sometimes that means I'm at Walmart (and I do my weekly grocery shopping there). Sometimes that means I'm at a local mom and pop store (love shopping at the local used bookstore but hate the fact that the owner is overly pushy about needing people to come in and shop more so she can pay her rent - I'm going to buy what I want when I can afford to buy it - I don't like the guilt trip). Many times it means I'm at one of the local thrift stores because I like the low prices and the thrill of the hunt.
Scrapbook wise -we had two LSSs here in town. One closed several years ago. It had a good selection but I never really felt welcomed - there was a group that scrapped there and were friends with the owner and I didn't fit in with them. The other downsized a couple of years ago and closed earlier this year (the owner still does classes). Selectionwise it wasn't as good a fit for me but the customer service was superb and the owner was super welcoming. I didn't shop at either especially often - my scrap budget wasn't big. We got a Michaels a couple of years ago (while the one LSS was still open) and we're getting a HL next year-ish. I don't think Michaels played much of a role in the LSS closing - the overlap in selection really wasn't much. I probably stopped into Michaels more often - but that was more due to the hours Michaels was open vs the LSS (a couple of days a week for a few hours each by the end) and I mostly bought cardstock and adhesive - I was still getting PP from the LSS because they had more choices.
|
|
Dalia
Junior Member
Posts: 54
Aug 30, 2016 4:43:30 GMT
|
Post by Dalia on Oct 16, 2016 21:22:25 GMT
I'm with you, I don't get it.
|
|
georgiapea
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,846
Jun 27, 2014 18:02:10 GMT
|
Post by georgiapea on Oct 16, 2016 21:37:44 GMT
My town is thankful for Walmart. There are only 2 other places to shop, both sleezy stores that allow their employees to stand outside the front doors and smoke, then return to their cash registers without washing their hands. No smoker is going to touch my food. Walmart all the way.
|
|
|
Post by walkerdill on Oct 16, 2016 21:49:00 GMT
I worked for Walmart up until January for 8 years. They do not hire full time associates and they do not offer insurance if you work less than 34 hours. The only way to get full time is to move up into management positions. They do offer 401k and will match up to 8% I think. You can also purchase stock if you want. Now they have restructured raises and now that goes on a % of what you make. Since the change the raises are alot less than they use to be. You also can cap out and no longer get raises if you have been there a long time.
|
|
|
Post by mymindseyedpea on Oct 16, 2016 22:29:10 GMT
I think the boundary is more about the intent. Which I believe can be felt in both stores. A mom and pop usually feels friendly, welcoming and genuine. You feel like you're family there and not pushed for sales or anything. In a big box store it seems like there's more greed, expectations, demand and roboticness.
I worked at a mom and pop store and it was very family like and I felt more personally connected. And I worked at big box stores and felt disrespected. Not listened too unless I was using proper lingos and business conversation.
When shopping at big box stores it feels like the workers who talk to me feel like they are forced to.
So, I think what separates a mom and pop store from a big box store is the mom and pop store has an energy of gratitude for every penny earned and empathy for every guest, while a big box store has insane sale goals, money motivated and trained how to talk to guests instead of emotional connection. No, don't let emotions get in the way. Screw that, if a guest starts to cry I will cry too.
|
|